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Value Old European Cut over 12ct

Bepsi

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Messages
13
Hi to all experts and not,
As wedding present for my future wife I decided to use a diamond I got a long time ago from my grandmother.
As until now I always kept it in a very safe place I never cared about the value, but now... as I hope she will use the ring sometimes, I would like to insure it.
The jeweler who helped me with my project did estimate the value around 30.000 Euro as it is and old European cut, but he told me that having it recut, and if the size will still be over 10ct, the value could easily arrive to 80.0000 Euro.
For which value should I insure it?

The jewelr made a certificate.... It is not GIA, I know (unfortunately I began to read this forum too late!):
Measurements mm: 15,93 - 16,00 x h 7,86
Weight: 12,54ct.
Clarity grade: SI 1
Color grade: L
UV fluorescence: Medium
Proportions: fair
Table: 49,4%
Crown height 13,2%
Pavilion depth: 35%
Total depth: 49,2%
Simmetry: Fair
Polish: fair

I took pictures only after having having it mounted, the quality of the images is terrible but I hope you will get a better idea!
Thanks to all for your help!


file_29-08-16_00_53_57.jpg
file_29-08-16_00_54_09.jpg file_29-08-16_00_53_33_0.jpg
 

Niel

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 23, 2012
Messages
18,853
Oh my goodness do not recut it, and I'm included to disagree that a smaller modern cut in that color range will be of higher value than an antique cut
I'm not too great with valuations but an insurance company will need a current appraisal to support its value so you may want to get an appraisal from someone who knows what a gem you've got there
 

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
4,114
Hi, I agree, please do not recut this stunning and special diamond. She has a rare size and beauty. Her colour and clarity are a little low but she has size and size and then some. You would wait along time to find another such as this. As for insurance, well, you'll be paying an arm and leg each year in premiums and MUST make 100% sure of the fine print in the policy. What exactly, how and when will they treat a loss, damage or theft. You might find an "anywhere and anytime loss, damage or theft" policy very expensive. And you don't want a "pie in the sky" valuation because as other posters here have found when attempting to claim against their insurance that the "replacement retail value" the insurer comes up and which the insurer will pay out on is a lot less than the "valuation" they had and on which their premiums were being paid. And please make sure your fiancé wears it, such a ring needs to be out and about and enjoyed (not locked in a safe)!
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
8,746
I don't claim to know your local market but I think your appraiser may be giving the answer to the wrong question. For insurance purposes, the definition of value has to do with what it would be reasonably expected to cost to replace the item with another of like kind and quality in the case of a loss. (There are other definitions, like how much you could expect to sell it for, but they don't apply to insurance questions. Even if he's right in some context, the correct answer to the wrong question is doing you no favors).

Recutting or the potential for recutting has nothing to do with insurance. The OEC cut is even something of a problem for the insurer. A 12ct Euro that meets or exceeds those specs is not an easy item to find and, around here, it would be many times that price, even if you were lucky enough to find one.

Note: Not that I recommend recutting either, but if those proportions are anything like correct and you want to have at least a decent cut grade, there's no way it'll hold 10 carats. 8 is more like it.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
You appraiser is biased against old cuts. Don't listen to him.

What you have is a one of a kind treasure. Do you know how many people would love an old cut of that size!!! And how few of them there are?

Please do not have it recut.
 

girlguineapig

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
141
I'm curious if VC or GOG got their hands on it what size it would be.

Don't recut it to a MRB!!! I'm so jealous. :)
 

Niel

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 23, 2012
Messages
18,853
Don't recut it either. The only thing worse than loosing the ctw (which would probably cut the value down by half at least!) Would be it being ruined in the cutting process. That cab happen! I'd get that idea right out of your head.

If you have the money, I'd send it to gia and I'd then get an appraisal from someone who knows what he's looking at.
 

LLJsmom

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
9,257
DONT RECUT IT!!! THAT SIZE?! ITS SUPER RARE!!! SEND IT TO GIA TO SEE WHAT YOU HAVE. ITS WORTH WAY MORE THAN 30K EURO. ITS AT LEAST SIX DIGITS.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
You have a terribly ignorant appraiser. Send the stone to GIA and then have to sent to an appraiser that understands the old cut market, and get an accurate appraisal.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
8,746
shaggy1|1472438832|4071074 said:
I agree about having GIA do a certificate. Is that possible?
Yes, it's possible, but it's a bit of a pain and I'm not convinced it'll do you all that much good at this point. It's going to depend on your insurer and your objectives. What it takes is to send the stone, unmounted, to one of the various GIA labs. There's two in the US and half a dozen around the world but rather conspicuously NOT one in Europe. It costs about $1100 for a stone that size, plus shipping and insurance, plus the cost of taking it out of the setting and resetting it when you're done. All told you're probably talking about $1600 or more and a month of screwing around to do this. That's quite a bite.

For what? GIA paperwork answers some key questions if you're buying or selling, but for insurance issues I'm not sure it gets you where you need to go. You STILL need to hire a competent appraiser to document the thing. The behavior of the insurance company will still be the same in the case of a loss and, in most cases, it's the same at underwriting. It may be worthwhile if you're inclined to dispute one or more of those grades but that's about it. The difference between a J and an L is some BIG money but that doesn't seem to be the issue here and the difference between L and N can get pretty big as well. Not all such things turn out in your favor.

GIA will take work from anyone who will pay them and who will sign the client agreement. Instructions are on their website at www.gia.edu...
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
4,929
I agree with the ones calling for no re-cut.
OEC this size will always be rarer than a "same old RB" again....
I agree with denverappraiser that given its proportions the weight loss will be well, well over 20%.
I would strongly suggest you sending it to denverappraiser or any of the PS appraisers as they have significant knowledge in the old-cut arena. I suggest cause I think you could be pleasantly surprised unless the SI grade is much worse and if the Diamond conceals a brown or olive secondary hue...

Keep it rare and unique don't crate another RB, they are plentiful!
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2012
Messages
9,512
Old Cuts these days are exceeding popular and as such it could actually be worth more left as it is rather than what it would be recutting it, so another strong suggestion that you please leave it alone, it's beautiful and part of your family's history as well. Send it to GIA or someone like David Atlas who is amazing at valuing and grading Old Cuts;

http://datlas.com/
 

Bepsi

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Messages
13
Thanks for all your interesting and qualified opinions, it's great to have your support in such a specific topic where I must admit I am totally ignorant.
I actually never had the idea to recut this rock which is in my family since generations and I would never change a single "facet" of it :)
As I wrote I had it mounted in this ring as a gift for my future wife, and unfortunately I did not have it certified by GIA and I also did not think about to have it apparaised before... So I am in a difficult situation to not have any idea for which value I should insure it.
I am also quite surprised about the fact that it's value could "many times" the estimation of 30.000 euro.
I love this stone, but I must admit that it's performances are not really the best with artificial light, while outdoor it seems to be better.
I think the estimation the jeweler gave me was also based on the fact that it's condition show how much it has been used (i think my grand-grandmother and my grandmother did really enjoy it a lot!!)
The gridle is particularly ruined and there are different "signs" on the table you can see without the need of a magnifier...
Considering all these information, what is in your opinion a fair value range for it?
I would like to have this information before going to a local appraiser, in order to be sure I will get a good estimation for it and not for what it could be after recutting it....
Thanks again for your help!
 

ChristineRose

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
926
If the stone is damaged, you must take it to an expert to be examined as wearing it would potentially ruin it. It needs to be unmounted in any case.

Obviously it's value to you is not financial, but yes, this is a stone worth $100,000+ and the cost of having it unmounted and properly looked it will be nothing compared to its value. This may ruin the setting, but the cost of a new setting in that style less its salvage value is also nothing compared to what you are dealing with. Money or not, I'm sure you'd be devastated if it broke.

An expert also will have some things to say about fixing the chips and mounting it in a way to improve light performance. Older stones like this were cut to different tastes as well as not having modern tools to work with.

I hate to be repetitive, but you have had some very bad advice. I'm sure your wife will understand that you want to take her amazing stone away long enough to make it last long enough for her grandson's wife to enjoy it.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
8,746
Bepsi|1472579183|4071500 said:
Thanks for all your interesting and qualified opinions, it's great to have your support in such a specific topic where I must admit I am totally ignorant.
I actually never had the idea to recut this rock which is in my family since generations and I would never change a single "facet" of it :)
As I wrote I had it mounted in this ring as a gift for my future wife, and unfortunately I did not have it certified by GIA and I also did not think about to have it apparaised before... So I am in a difficult situation to not have any idea for which value I should insure it.
I am also quite surprised about the fact that it's value could "many times" the estimation of 30.000 euro.
I love this stone, but I must admit that it's performances are not really the best with artificial light, while outdoor it seems to be better.
I think the estimation the jeweler gave me was also based on the fact that it's condition show how much it has been used (i think my grand-grandmother and my grandmother did really enjoy it a lot!!)
The gridle is particularly ruined and there are different "signs" on the table you can see without the need of a magnifier...
Considering all these information, what is in your opinion a fair value range for it?
I would like to have this information before going to a local appraiser, in order to be sure I will get a good estimation for it and not for what it could be after recutting it....
Thanks again for your help!
I hadn't noticed you mentioning before that the girdle is damaged. This may be a problem for your insurer. They're usually ok with 'wear' but have problems with 'damage'. The difference can be a bit subtle. They definitely wouldn't care for your description of it as 'ruined'. That's one of the questions for your appraiser and your insurance agent. Mostly underwriters won't bind a policy at all on an item with pre-existing damage.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Getting the girdle rehabilitated is very affordable. Send it as is to one lf the two appraisers in the US to have it unmounted and appraised. They can send it to Jewels by Grace or Good Old Gold for the girdle repair and a repolish.. After that is done you can have it reset. Okay?
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
8,746
Gypsy|1472590017|4071555 said:
Getting the girdle rehabilitated is very affordable. Send it as is to one lf the two appraisers in the US to have it unmounted and appraised. They can send it to Jewels by Grace or Good Old Gold for the girdle repair and a repolish.. After that is done you can have it reset. Okay?
If you do this, that would also be a good time to get GIA paperwork on it. :sun:
 

Marquise_Madness

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 28, 2016
Messages
292
Oooh it's so pretty! I'm glad you're not recutting it! Send it in for a polish and a reset.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2012
Messages
9,512
Adam from Old World Diamonds has a guy he uses that is really outstanding for rehabbing old cut diamonds.
 

MollyMalone

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 2, 2013
Messages
3,083
arkieb1|1472595523|4071596 said:
Adam from Old World Diamonds has a guy he uses that is really outstanding for rehabbing old cut diamonds.
+1! That's whom my late father-in-law, who was in the diamond trade, recommended to consumers in need of such specialized services.

fyi Old World Diamonds is in NYC at 580 Fifth Avenue, at the corner of 47th Street -- and just steps away from GIA's NYC lab. David Wolf (Just Appraisers) is at 608 Fifth Avenue, at the corner of 49th Street, and I can happily recommend him.
https://justappraisers.com/about-us/#david
Adam or David could walk the stone to/from GIA's lab, so you wouldn't have to spend additional money on insured delivery service around the US. (And I personally would find that less nerve-wracking as well.)

BUT, because I think you live somewhere in Europe since you've used Euros in your posts, may I suggest that you first speak with local insurance brokers, or whatever they might be called over there, and find out, e.g., what they will accept in terms of supporting documentation.

One reason I'm recommending this is because although Jewelers Mutual, a US-based insurer of personal jewelry, does issue policies to Canadian residents (provided they don't live in Quebec) -- the only US insurer who will issue a policy to any non-US resident, JM now wants appraisals for Canadians' stones-jewelry to use Canadian dollars, not US dollars. More fundamentally, you want to make certain that your particular, prospective insurance company will accept a report from an appraiser in the US before you go through the rigmarole and expense of having everything done here.

gia_-_old_world_diamonds_-_just_appraisers.png
 

dollyanjuli

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Apr 25, 2013
Messages
592
holy guacamole. that is A ROCK. Can you post some more pictures pleaseeee?!?! :love: :love:
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
denverappraiser|1472590643|4071561 said:
Gypsy|1472590017|4071555 said:
Getting the girdle rehabilitated is very affordable. Send it as is to one lf the two appraisers in the US to have it unmounted and appraised. They can send it to Jewels by Grace or Good Old Gold for the girdle repair and a repolish.. After that is done you can have it reset. Okay?
If you do this, that would also be a good time to get GIA paperwork on it. :sun:
Good point.
 

Bepsi

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Messages
13
Again thanks to everybody! I got really a lot of useful information from you all :)
As we are planning our honeymoon in US, and NY will be our first stop, I will ask my wife to renounce to her ring for some days in order to get the GIA paperwork done, and if time will be enough to get the stone repaired / polished.
At this point I am also very curious to see what the GIA gradings will be.
As soon as the dates of our trip will be set I will contact some of you to get assistance in all this.
By the way... the setting I choose for the ring had the main objective to protect the stone as much as possible, also sacrificing a little bit light performance. After repairing this could change and my wife could actually wish a different setting.
I will give her the ring in 2 weeks (she has no idea about all this) just a couple of days before the wedding in the same place we met 5 years ago for the first time.
After I will post some more pics and this time with natural light and with a better quality!
 

MollyMalone

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 2, 2013
Messages
3,083
Bepsi|1472890192|4072830 said:
Again thanks to everybody! I got really a lot of useful information from you all :)
As we are planning our honeymoon in US, and NY will be our first stop, I will ask my wife to renounce to her ring for some days in order to get the GIA paperwork done, and if time will be enough to get the stone repaired / polished.
At this point I am also very curious to see what the GIA gradings will be.
As soon as the dates of our trip will be set I will contact some of you to get assistance in all this.
By the way... the setting I choose for the ring had the main objective to protect the stone as much as possible, also sacrificing a little bit light performance. After repairing this could change and my wife could actually wish a different setting.
I will give her the ring in 2 weeks (she has no idea about all this) just a couple of days before the wedding in the same place we met 5 years ago for the first time.
After I will post some more pics and this time with natural light and with a better quality!
Oh that's terrific that you will be coming here to NYC! You two could actually sit with David Atlas while he does the appraisal; he's very nice, very informative -- it's like having a personalized diamond "tutorial."

I just now checked GIA's web site; it's currently taking the NYC lab about 2 weeks to issue reports. Same day service is usually available, but that costs twice as much as standard service. Because the fee for a Diamond Grading Report on a stone that's 12.00 - 14.99 carats is $1067, the rush fee would be more than $2100. You may already have looked up the fees for a diamond of this size, but if not, I wanted to give you a heads-up.

Looking forward to seeing the post-proposal pics!!
 

MollyMalone

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 2, 2013
Messages
3,083
OOPS, apologies for the blooper in my preceding post's first paragraph. (haste makes waste!) David Atlas is not in NYC; I meant to type David Wolf, whom I'd recommended up-thread. So should be
MollyMalone|1472913719|4072883 said:
Oh that's terrific that you will be coming here to NYC! You two could actually sit with David Wolf while he does the appraisal; he's very nice, very informative -- it's like having a personalized diamond "tutorial." * * *
 

pearaffair

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
2,262
Gorgeous diamond! I love the family history and the fun you'll have on your upcoming trip to NYC! Please, let us live vicariously through you, and keep us posted!
 

pearaffair

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
2,262
Is your diamond currently set in yellow gold or rose gold? I think it's current setting is really divine!

Your fiancé... Given that you're getting married soon and she doesn't know about this heirloom ring yet, does that men you proposed with a different ring?
 
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