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True Hearts?????? is this stone a true heart?

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John Pollard

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Date: 7/23/2008 3:57:04 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Did you know that Garry loves to eat what we call ''stoofvlees'' when he is in Antwerp? In translation, I think that stew would be the best translation.

When we, Belgians, talk of preparing stew, we all remember that our mothers would add a slice of bread (preferably dark bread), covered with pear-syrup and mustard to the stew. And of course prunes. For us, that makes the stew really good.

However, most important are of course the other ingredients, which we, Belgians, do not consider, because we think it logical to use fine meat of various animals.

Now, I know little about stew in a technical sense, but there is a great analogy here with diamonds.

Live long,
Do you all consider vide a kind of stoofvlees, Paul? If not, can it perform as well as stoofvlees anyway? Even though it''s vide? Will some people by angry that you refuse to consider it stoofvlees? Is it okay to have a bolleke with vide as well as with stoofvlees?
 

John Pollard

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Date: 7/22/2008 9:06:14 PM
Author: agc
I agree that alot of consumers equate H&A with the best in craftsmanship AND performance. They are paying a premium not to simply see a pattern but because they expect that this pattern will equate to the best craftsmanship and performance and they expect it to surpass diamonds that do not have true H&A's. One quick question. What in the cut of the diamond gives true symmetric hearts but the V's are variable?
In near-Tolkowsky configurations (most H&A diamonds are near-Tolk) it's the lower half length.

From HRD's new H&A Cut Parameters:

"Variation in the pavilion half length influences the gap between the v-shaped arrow head and the heart shape. Lowering the pavilion half length (79%) makes the gap between the V's and the hearts wider and creates incisions in the heart shapes. The arrows become thinner. It should be noticed that the range of acceptable half lengths is very narrow."

HRD's "common parameter" for lower halves is cited as 77%.

For other labs the center of the range allowed for a top grade is pretty close. The center of the GIA EX range is 77.5%, regardless of configuration. AGS considers each diamond separately but has reported the same center-of-range for ideal light performance in near-Tolkowksy stones. They use 78.5% as default for their lab studies and cut guides. Both labs have approximately 70-85% as the practical range for lower girdle halves (again, GIA's given range is applied regardless of configuration where AGS considers each stone separately and might allow longer or shorter for diamonds of diferent makes).

I posted hearts graphics of modern Tolk stones with lower halves at 70%, 85% and 78% here:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/true-hearts-is-this-stone-a-true-heart.90360/page-2
 

agc

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John, I realize the lgf length with alter the gap between V''s and hearts and alter the width of the arrows but I have seen diamonds with perfectly symmetric true hearts but the arrowheads/V''s are not uniformed. The arms of the V''s are not equal but the hearts are perfect. That is what I was trying to ask. Thanks.
 

Allison D.

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Date: 7/23/2008 12:03:42 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/23/2008 11:32:13 AM
Author: Allison D.

If so, then you should begin by lobbying for dismissal of color and clarity standards first. Not only are they subjective (i.e. not remotely factual but only expert opinion), but consumers widely misunderstand them and are often preyed upon by some in the trade who exploit their lack of understanding about what the differences mean. Consumers routinely think that an F color is *better* than an H, which is not necessarily true.
What an awesome idea why shouldn''t your company be first? After all they have you to explain it!
Maybe others will join in.
Sir John can educate the dealers and you can educate the consumers.
Come on just do it your company has a lot of pull and can educate people!
Just think what you can do in the fight against arbitrary standards.


storm looks back at the first page wow that advise sounds familiar.
Not quite. The difference is this:

You argue that because some people can''t interpret a standard correctly OR because some people don''t know which standard to prioritize (performance vs. patterning), there shouldn''t be a standard at all.

My position is that the existence of a standard (such a true H&A) isn''t and shouldn''t be a problem for experienced jewelers/vendors. As with any other standard (color, clarity, etc), the vendor''s role is to educate by explaining the differences (measurable or visual, if any) and allowing the customer to use that information to determine what''s important to him individually.
 

John Pollard

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Date: 7/23/2008 1:20:57 PM
Author: agc
John, I realize the lgf length with alter the gap between V's and hearts and alter the width of the arrows but I have seen diamonds with perfectly symmetric true hearts but the arrowheads/V's are not uniformed. The arms of the V's are not equal but the hearts are perfect. That is what I was trying to ask. Thanks.
Do you mean this kind of image AGC? It has to do with slope/azimuth variations in the pavilion. I altered this pattern by adjusting the indexing of the lower halves.

lower-halves-indexvar.jpg
 

strmrdr

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Date: 7/23/2008 12:34:30 PM
Author: John Pollard



Without using any words related to contrast, brilliance, scintillation or light return answer this questions:
Why should a consumer spend more money on a h&a diamond than one without it?
Read this post.
Industry tradition is not a valid reason.
10% clefts vs 8% clefts has no valid difference in symbolism but I will give you 1/3 point for the answer.
 

Paul-Antwerp

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Date: 7/23/2008 3:18:19 PM
Author: strmrdr
Industry tradition is not a valid reason.
10% clefts vs 8% clefts has no valid difference in symbolism but I will give you 1/3 point for the answer.
Industry tradition does have a meaning here, although it may not have a relation to performance.

Japanese would call these patterns ''broken hearts'', and it is a no-no to offer your loved one a stone with broken hearts.

As an aside, I am surprised that nobody seems to understand my Belgian stoofvlees-analogy. If you do not, then you have a problem in understanding the value of H&A, I would say.

Live long,
 

Regular Guy

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Date: 7/23/2008 3:36:57 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

As an aside, I am surprised that nobody seems to understand my Belgian stoofvlees-analogy. If you do not, then you have a problem in understanding the value of H&A, I would say.
Ok, I had a difficulty crafting a follow up joke, and no, I was clueless. Can you exshplain?

No...correct that...I had a sense for yours, Paul. From JP, I was without the clue. Maybe you would both like to f/u?
 

Wink

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Date: 7/23/2008 2:36:57 AM
Author: Serg
Hi, Wink

re:Storm is absolutely right that the cut off for H&A ignores some fantastic performing stones.

could you help find such stone for our our MSS?

we need

''5.8mm (5.75-5.85) rounds
G to F
VS2 / SI1
Non Fluoro
Average Girdle thickness: Medium 3% at mains
MSS Cutting Rules
''

Also we are looking now Radiant, Cushion, Pear and any other fancy cut with:
1)fantastic performance
2) G to F ,VS2 / SI1 ,Non Fluoro
3) mass=0.71ct(100-spread)/100
Hi Serg,

I believe that Jonathon has some such as the one being discussed as the topic starter of this thread. I do not personally have any of them.

I am in Minneapolis yesterday, today and tomorrow, so I do not have much time to visit. Perhaps I can catch up better on Friday.

Wink
 

Wink

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Date:
7/23/2008 3:18:19 PM
Author: strmrdr


Date: 7/23/2008 12:34:30 PM
Author: John Pollard





Without using any words related to contrast, brilliance, scintillation or light return answer this questions:
Why should a consumer spend more money on a h&a diamond than one without it?
Read this post.
Industry tradition is not a valid reason.
10% clefts vs 8% clefts has no valid difference in symbolism but I will give you 1/3 point for the answer.
But symbolism is. Be careful, you could insult or possibly offend an entire culture with that comment. :) John's post was about the symbolism, tradition and history of the H&A movement.

Wink
 

Serg

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Date: 7/23/2008 4:40:44 PM
Author: Wink


Date: 7/23/2008 2:36:57 AM
Author: Serg
Hi, Wink

re:Storm is absolutely right that the cut off for H&A ignores some fantastic performing stones.

could you help find such stone for our our MSS?

we need

'5.8mm (5.75-5.85) rounds
G to F
VS2 / SI1
Non Fluoro
Average Girdle thickness: Medium 3% at mains
MSS Cutting Rules
'

Also we are looking now Radiant, Cushion, Pear and any other fancy cut with:
1)fantastic performance
2) G to F ,VS2 / SI1 ,Non Fluoro
3) mass=0.71ct(100-spread)/100
Hi Serg,

I believe that Jonathon has some such as the one being discussed as the topic starter of this thread. I do not personally have any of them.

I am in Minneapolis yesterday, today and tomorrow, so I do not have much time to visit. Perhaps I can catch up better on Friday.

Wink
Hi Wink,

Thanks. It is not so urgent . We are doing MSS last two years. If you find nice example in Friday, we will buy in Friday. If you find in September , we will buy in September
Of course it should be nice( high performances) asymmetrical round, with mass, clarity, color according our range and reasonable price.

 

jasontb

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Date: 7/23/2008 3:57:04 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Did you know that Garry loves to eat what we call 'stoofvlees' when he is in Antwerp? In translation, I think that stew would be the best translation.


When we, Belgians, talk of preparing stew, we all remember that our mothers would add a slice of bread (preferably dark bread), covered with pear-syrup and mustard to the stew. And of course prunes. For us, that makes the stew really good.


However, most important are of course the other ingredients, which we, Belgians, do not consider, because we think it logical to use fine meat of various animals.


Now, I know little about stew in a technical sense, but there is a great analogy here with diamonds.


Live long,
Paul, I *think* I understood your analogy, but if I do, it is a bit flawed. The pear syrup and mustard affected the essential characteristic of the stew...it's flavor. But the presence of the heart pattern does not affect the essential characteristic of the diamond...it's performance. I would argue your analogy should be more along the lines of:

When we, Belgians, talk of preparing stew, we all remember that our mothers would add some purple food coloring to the stew. For us, that makes the stew really good.

However, most important are of course the other ingredients, which we, Belgians, do not consider, because we think it logical to use fine meat of various animals.

Now it's a fair comparison, because the purple didn't make the stew taste better, and the hearts didn't make the diamond look better.

And to reiterate my point, rephrased in your analogy, the problem is that 99% of the world is convinced that purple stew tastes better.
 

purrfectpear

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Date: 7/23/2008 5:17:16 PM
Author: jasontb
Paul, I *think* I understood your analogy, but if I do, it is a bit flawed. The pear syrup and mustard affected the essential characteristic of the stew...it''s flavor. But the presence of the heart pattern does not affect the essential characteristic of the diamond...it''s appearance. I would argue your analogy should be more along the lines of:

When we, Belgians, talk of preparing stew, we all remember that our mothers would add some purple food coloring to the stew. For us, that makes the stew really good.

However, most important are of course the other ingredients, which we, Belgians, do not consider, because we think it logical to use fine meat of various animals.

Now it''s a fair comparison, because the purple didn''t make the stew taste better, and the hearts didn''t make the diamond look better.

And to reiterate my point, rephrased in your analogy, the problem is that 99% of the world is convinced that purple stew tastes better.
Because sellers of purple stew use terms like the "Ultimate in stew" and make it a point to refer to lavender stew as "False Purple Stew"
 

rcrosier

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Date: 7/22/2008 7:27:05 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/22/2008 7:02:38 PM
Author: rcrosier

Date: 7/22/2008 6:00:21 PM

Author: strmrdr

Hey Sir John and anyone else who wants to answer, here is a challenge for you.

Since you want to separate h&a images from any performance consideration.

Without using any words related to contrast, brilliance, scintillation or light return answer this questions:

Why should a consumer spend more money on a h&a diamond than one without it?
A consumer''s answer to your question:


For the same reason a consumer wants a VVS1 instead of a VVS2, a D instead of an E, or a 1.50ct instead of a 1.49ct (given equally proportional spreads). I know that some people may actually be able to tell the difference between the two colors, but other than that comparison it comes down to purely what a consumer wants. I wanted an H&A stone because I wanted one. It''s like the AppleJacks commercial: Q:''Why do you like AppleJacks?'' A:''We just do...''


For me it was about getting the best cut possible. I just found that the ACA H&A diamonds at WF shined slightly better than the ''expert selection'' when I did a blind comparison w/ Brian Gavin in his office. So I paid the premium... I can''t tell the difference between an F and a D mounted, or between a VS1 and a VVS2, but I could see the ACA H&A advantage... I know this probably isn''t the answer you wanted, but it is an honest answer from a consumer.
first Congrats on the diamond :}

That''s one valid answer but what if you had been shown a h&a diamond with less performance than the non-h&a?
What convinced you that h&a was better? Performance.
Lets say a friend wants to buy a diamond how would you convince them to buy a h&a without mentioning anything related to performance?
That is my question.
I see. From that point of view the H&A is a harder sell. I guess I would have an expert explain how much reflection goes into making one of the hearts appear in the hearts viewer and how much craftmanship is required to achieve it. I do understand your point and agree that light performance comes first, but the symmetry makes it all seem like more of a "perfect" cut from the precision point of it.
 

rcrosier

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Date: 7/22/2008 8:12:37 PM
Author: jasontb

Date: 7/22/2008 7:02:38 PM
Author: rcrosier

Date: 7/22/2008 6:00:21 PM

Author: strmrdr

Hey Sir John and anyone else who wants to answer, here is a challenge for you.

Since you want to separate h&a images from any performance consideration.

Without using any words related to contrast, brilliance, scintillation or light return answer this questions:

Why should a consumer spend more money on a h&a diamond than one without it?
A consumer''s answer to your question:


For the same reason a consumer wants a VVS1 instead of a VVS2, a D instead of an E, or a 1.50ct instead of a 1.49ct (given equally proportional spreads). I know that some people may actually be able to tell the difference between the two colors, but other than that comparison it comes down to purely what a consumer wants. I wanted an H&A stone because I wanted one. It''s like the AppleJacks commercial: Q:''Why do you like AppleJacks?'' A:''We just do...''


For me it was about getting the best cut possible. I just found that the ACA H&A diamonds at WF shined slightly better than the ''expert selection'' when I did a blind comparison w/ Brian Gavin in his office. So I paid the premium... I can''t tell the difference between an F and a D mounted, or between a VS1 and a VVS2, but I could see the ACA H&A advantage... I know this probably isn''t the answer you wanted, but it is an honest answer from a consumer.

That is not an apples to apples comparison. D is *whiter* then D. 1.50 is *bigger* than 1.49. The only statement that can be made with hearts is: A H&A stone with perfectly formed hearts *looks more like hearts* than one with clefts.

You want a H&A because you want the best cut possible? That is the crux of the argument going on here. People think that H&A is the best cut possible. And that a H&A with perfect hearts is a better cut than one that ''fails'' because it has clefts. That is simply not true. It''s not a better cut. It''s just a cut that looks more like hearts.

Let''s be honest here. H&A was developed as a standard for great cut. People buy H&A because they think they are getting the best cut possible. They do not but them because they want to see perfect unclefted hearts in the bottom of their stones when viewed in a special reflective device. They buy them because they want the best.

True...the clefts do not make for true ''hearts''. But they can make for amazing stones. But lets not mislead people to think that the lack of a heart is indicative of ANYTHING but the lack of a arbitrary pattern.

In summary, the only value in the term H&A is in the perceived performance and cut quality. Nobody values the hearts.

Also, I do not think it is fair that Jon''s diamonds with clefted hearts are being equated (perhaps only implicitly) to ES stones at WhiteFlash.

In the interest of full disclosure, I did buy a H&A stone from Jon with slight clefts. Though I think it would ''pass'' the H&A test because the clefts appear to be less than 8%
Can you tell the difference between a D and an E face up or a 1.49 and a 1.50 (again, proportional spreads)? I know that I can''t... My point is that if your goal as a cutter is to make a hearts and arrows diamond by what seems to the industry standard, a cleft is not in a heart is not desired.
 

Allison D.

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Date: 7/23/2008 5:29:15 PM
Author: purrfectpear



Date: 7/23/2008 5:17:16 PM
Author: jasontb
Paul, I *think* I understood your analogy, but if I do, it is a bit flawed. The pear syrup and mustard affected the essential characteristic of the stew...it's flavor. But the presence of the heart pattern does not affect the essential characteristic of the diamond...it's appearance. I would argue your analogy should be more along the lines of:

When we, Belgians, talk of preparing stew, we all remember that our mothers would add some purple food coloring to the stew. For us, that makes the stew really good.

However, most important are of course the other ingredients, which we, Belgians, do not consider, because we think it logical to use fine meat of various animals.

Now it's a fair comparison, because the purple didn't make the stew taste better, and the hearts didn't make the diamond look better.

And to reiterate my point, rephrased in your analogy, the problem is that 99% of the world is convinced that purple stew tastes better.
Because sellers of purple stew use terms like the 'Ultimate in stew' and make it a point to refer to lavender stew as 'False Purple Stew'
LOL - that's hysterical!
But.........not exactly.

If Belgians, as the creators of the stew dish, always make stew with #10 purple food coloring and I am a tourist who wants to sample "real" or "traditional" quintessential Belgian stew, you can bet that I'm going to look for the stew that shows #10 purple.

I'm sure it's possible that some Belgians are crappy cooks (sorry, Paul, but they exist in every culture), so of course I recognize that the mere fact that the stew is #10 purple doesn't guarantee it will be the best tasting stew. In fact, others stews (including the #13 lavendar) may actually taste better, and if they do, I'll of course eat the better tasting stews instead even if they aren't #10 purple.

If I find a seller who has both #10 purple stew and #13 lavender stew and find that the #10 purple stew doesn't smell as good or look as appetizing as the #13 stew, then I'm sure I'd bypass the #10 stew in favor of the #13 stew.

HOWEVER, if both the #10 purple coloring stew and the #13 lavender coloring stew both look and smell equally appetizing and they taste materially the same, I'm probably *personally* inclined to pick the #10 stew because it feels 'more authentic' to me.

It may not matter to you, and you should not pick your stew based on what I like or what I think is authentic. If you don't give a whit about authenticity, or you think purple stew looks unappealing (whether it tastes better or worse than other stews), then you shouldn't care about what color 'real' Belgin stew is.

But, that doesn't mean that people should stop having to note that traditional, authentic Belgian stew is typically made with #10 purple food coloring and that #13 lavender falls outside the traditional definiton of Belgian stew.
 

rcrosier

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Date: 7/22/2008 8:41:11 PM
Author: jasontb

Date: 7/20/2008 10:00:13 PM
Author: BrianTheCutter
For consumers out there… Those who have bought great performing stones that do not have this patterning it’s fine. You have great stones, regardless of whether they are true Hearts and Arrows. Enjoy them.


For those of you who bought great performing stones with True Hearts and Arrows you got what you paid for. Enjoy it.
But what did they pay for? An arbitrary shape in their diamond? A geometric coincidence? Or was it the perceived performance that comes with a H&A?

Did you charge them more for a H&A because you believe the heart is the most perfect shape in the world and therefore any product which contains the pattern of a heart should be sold at a premium? Or was it because you spent so much time and care creating a diamond with such tight tolerances and premium performance.

I think that, regardless of how the industry or some of the more advanced members of this board understand it, to almost all consumers (even some people who post here frequently), the term ''H&A'' is an indication of superior craftsmanship and performance. And the bigger problem, imho, is that they view the term as an indication of superior craftsman and performance relative to a stone that ''fails'' to meet the criteria. Which is not necessarily true.

No disrespect intended by my tongue in cheek phrasing.
I think that is the point... Superior craftsmanship and performance. An H&A diamond, regardless of its light performance, must have superior craftsmanship or the hearts will not come out to be symmetrical. The performance may be judged separately, although I doubt that you will find many HoF or ACA diamonds that do not excel in this category.
 

jasontb

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Date: 7/23/2008 5:59:02 PM
Author: rcrosier
I see. From that point of view the H&A is a harder sell. I guess I would have an expert explain how much reflection goes into making one of the hearts appear in the hearts viewer and how much craftmanship is required to achieve it. I do understand your point and agree that light performance comes first, but the symmetry makes it all seem like more of a "perfect" cut from the precision point of it.
*BUT* the presence or lack of a cleft in the heart has nothing to do with the amount of symmetry or precision in the stone. And it is no harder to make a stone with perfect hearts versus an identical stone with cleft hearts. It is just a matter of angles and measurements selected by the cutter.

My point is being proven over and over again. People think a cleft heart is somehow indicative of inferior craftsmanship.
 

jasontb

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Date: 7/23/2008 6:04:59 PM
Author: Allison D.
If Belgians, as the creators of the stew dish, always make stew with #10 purple food coloring and I am a tourist who wants to sample 'real' or 'traditional' quintessential Belgian stew, you can bet that I'm going to look for the stew that shows #10 purple.
But, people don't go buy purple stew because they are in search of a 'real' or 'traditional' quintessential Belgian stew. What they want is the best stew in the world. They eat the purple stew because they are convinced that it is the best stew in the world. But they fail to recognize that the color purple has nothing to do with it. That is just the color Paul's mother put in his stew.
 

purrfectpear

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It''s just marketing. In 1969 I used to work in a Keepsake Diamond jewelry store. Now those diamonds weren''t any different from any other diamond, but by golly I sure pushed that Keepsake name and I''m pretty sure I had every soon-to-be-engaged person in the whole city convinced that Zales and Helzbergs were inferior because they didn''t have the Keepsake name (strictly a brand)
There was time if you couldn''t brag that your FI bought you a Keepsake diamond, you might as well be wearing a CZ.
 

Allison D.

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Date: 7/23/2008 6:10:40 PM
Author: jasontb

*BUT* the presence or lack of a cleft in the heart has nothing to do with the amount of symmetry or precision in the stone. And it is no harder to make a stone with perfect hearts versus an identical stone with cleft hearts. It is just a matter of angles and measurements selected by the cutter.

My point is being proven over and over again. People think a cleft heart is somehow indicative of inferior craftsmanship.
I disagree.

Presence of true H&A suggests superior craftsmanship, but lack of presence doesn''t automatically determine inferior craftsmanship.

If I tell you that all Irish gals have freckles, does that mean girls who aren''t Irish can''t have freckles, too? No, it doesn''t. Similarly, saying that H&A stones denote a level of superior craftsmanship doesn''t mean that non H&A stones cannot exhibit superior craftsmanship, too.

A cleft heart means it doesn''t qualify for H&A. Period. That''s ALL a cleft heart means.

H&A patterning is but one possible indicator of craftsmanship; it is not the only one. As such, any stone with precise optical symmetry exhibits superior craftsmanship, whether or not it denotes a ''true'' H&A pattern. But only those that denote a true H&A pattern are true hearts and arrows. Those that don''t are non H&A stones that exhibit superior craftsmanship.
 

rcrosier

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Date: 7/23/2008 6:10:40 PM
Author: jasontb


Date: 7/23/2008 5:59:02 PM
Author: rcrosier
I see. From that point of view the H&A is a harder sell. I guess I would have an expert explain how much reflection goes into making one of the hearts appear in the hearts viewer and how much craftmanship is required to achieve it. I do understand your point and agree that light performance comes first, but the symmetry makes it all seem like more of a 'perfect' cut from the precision point of it.
*BUT* the presence or lack of a cleft in the heart has nothing to do with the amount of symmetry or precision in the stone. And it is no harder to make a stone with perfect hearts versus an identical stone with cleft hearts. It is just a matter of angles and measurements selected by the cutter.

My point is being proven over and over again. People think a cleft heart is somehow indicative of inferior craftsmanship.
If the goal was to make a traditional heart shape without the cleft, then I think it is indicative of inferior craftsmanship. If they were trying to make a diamond with clefts from the start, then you are right. However, if the cutter's purpose was to make hearts that conformed to the industry standard, I guess he wasn't successful...

Bottom line: The OP asked if the stone portrayed "true hearts". To me, that implies the industry standard (AKA: no clefts).
 

honey22

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Date: 7/23/2008 6:07:48 PM
Author: rcrosier
Date: 7/22/2008 8:41:11 PM

Author: jasontb


Date: 7/20/2008 10:00:13 PM

Author: BrianTheCutter

For consumers out there… Those who have bought great performing stones that do not have this patterning it’s fine. You have great stones, regardless of whether they are true Hearts and Arrows. Enjoy them.



For those of you who bought great performing stones with True Hearts and Arrows you got what you paid for. Enjoy it.


But what did they pay for? An arbitrary shape in their diamond? A geometric coincidence? Or was it the perceived performance that comes with a H&A?


Did you charge them more for a H&A because you believe the heart is the most perfect shape in the world and therefore any product which contains the pattern of a heart should be sold at a premium? Or was it because you spent so much time and care creating a diamond with such tight tolerances and premium performance.


I think that, regardless of how the industry or some of the more advanced members of this board understand it, to almost all consumers (even some people who post here frequently), the term ''H&A'' is an indication of superior craftsmanship and performance. And the bigger problem, imho, is that they view the term as an indication of superior craftsman and performance relative to a stone that ''fails'' to meet the criteria. Which is not necessarily true.


No disrespect intended by my tongue in cheek phrasing.
I think that is the point... Superior craftsmanship and performance. An H&A diamond, regardless of its light performance, must have superior craftsmanship or the hearts will not come out to be symmetrical. The performance may be judged separately, although I doubt that you will find many HoF or ACA diamonds that do not excel in this category.
I think this is the problem with many less reputable vendors (not PS vendors mind you) that claim their stones to have H&A - therefore people believe they must be superior diamonds. Many claim that their stones display H&A and many of those I am sure Brian and Jon wouldn''t give a second glance to and they wouldn''t end up in their lines of H&A stones - the problem is the accuracy and high level of this H&A pattern. This is what is comes down to for the consumer. No, H&A doesn''t always guarantee top light performance, but in the case of ACAs or GOG H&A, yes it does!

If you purchase a H&A that has been labelled such by Brian or Jon, then you are sure to be getting a killer stone, fab light performance and a ''true'' H&A pattern. We have learnt here that Brian and Jon''s acceptable patterns are slightly different - but there is still no doubt that they pick stunning stones.

Where I believe the problem lies is other vendors who have much lower standards of what they will label H&A - I have seen stones in local jewellers that are labelled H&A when the term that first sprung to my mind was ''frozen spit''. Here is where the term H&A doesn''t guarantee you a well cut, top quality stone. Unfortunately, uneducated consumers are led to believe that if it says H&A then it''s going to be great. People are going to be ''tricked'' into believing a marketing gimmic and there is nothing we can do but spread the word of Pricescope and help prevent people from making these mistakes.

I can personally say that I didn''t purchase my ACA simply because it was advertised to display H&A. The fact that they are handpicked to be stunning true ideal cut stones was deal maker for me - the fact that Brian has gone one step above (pardon the pun) and also selected stones that show perfect optical symmetry/ perfect H&A was the absolute icing on the cake. I know I am getting the best of the best when it comes to ideal cut stones, and on top of that, a ''perfect'' (according to Brian''s high standards) H&A pattern.
 

Allison D.

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
2,282
Date: 7/23/2008 6:18:11 PM
Author: jasontb

Date: 7/23/2008 6:04:59 PM
Author: Allison D.
If Belgians, as the creators of the stew dish, always make stew with #10 purple food coloring and I am a tourist who wants to sample ''real'' or ''traditional'' quintessential Belgian stew, you can bet that I''m going to look for the stew that shows #10 purple.
But, people don''t go buy purple stew because they are in search of a ''real'' or ''traditional'' quintessential Belgian stew. What they want is the best stew in the world. They eat the purple stew because they are convinced that it is the best stew in the world. But they fail to recognize that the color purple has nothing to do with it. That is just the color Paul''s mother put in his stew.
Jason, believe it or not, there are some people who ARE in search of the purple stew because they''re in Belgium and they want authentic Belgian stew.


However, let''s run with your position that they do think it''s the best stew in the world. So, then, should you go tell Paul''s mother to stop making her stew with purple food coloring just because it confuses people who can''t grasp that there is more than one kind of great stew?


Do you really think that if I go to Paul''s house with MY non-purple stew and ask them to taste both stews that people aren''t bright enough to grasp that both stews are equally good? Not only will some of them agree that my stew is just as good......GASP......some people may even prefer my non-purple stew.

In fact, what are they going to do when I place TWO bowls of stew in front of each diner....one purple and one not purple....and BOTH versions are made by Paul''s mother!!!!!!!!!! Will one taste different than the other then?

My friend, what you are trying to rail against is marketing and image, and one group''s opinion about what is the most desirable, and that happens with SEVERAL products. Some people swear by Ray-bans, even though other glasses are just as trendy and just as attractive. Some people swear that Kobe beef is the best, and that may be their loud opinion but it doesn''t make it fact and it doesn''t mean that all beef-lovers will automatically prefer the taste of Kobe beef.....OR even discern a difference in taste at all.
 

jasontb

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
226
Date: 7/23/2008 6:29:43 PM
Author: Allison D.

Presence of true H&A suggests superior craftsmanship, but lack of presence doesn''t automatically determine inferior craftsmanship.
Agreed. But, 99% of the public does NOT understand that. They think it does in fact determine inferior craftsmanship. That is the only point I am trying to make.

Date: 7/23/2008 6:29:43 PM
Author: Allison D.

A cleft heart means it doesn''t qualify for H&A. Period. That''s ALL a cleft heart means.

H&A patterning is but one possible indicator of craftsmanship; it is not the only one. As such, any stone with precise optical symmetry exhibits superior craftsmanship, whether or not it denotes a ''true'' H&A pattern. But only those that denote a true H&A pattern are true hearts and arrows. Those that don''t are non H&A stones that exhibit superior craftsmanship.
I agree 100%
 

agc

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
111
Date: 7/23/2008 2:18:31 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 7/23/2008 1:20:57 PM
Author: agc
John, I realize the lgf length with alter the gap between V''s and hearts and alter the width of the arrows but I have seen diamonds with perfectly symmetric true hearts but the arrowheads/V''s are not uniformed. The arms of the V''s are not equal but the hearts are perfect. That is what I was trying to ask. Thanks.
Do you mean this kind of image AGC? It has to do with slope/azimuth variations in the pavilion. I altered this pattern by adjusting the indexing of the lower halves.
John, that is exactly what I meant. I thought it was due to azimuth shift/yaw. It is interesting that this asymmetry is allowed in true H&A''s.
 

jasontb

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
226
Date: 7/23/2008 6:47:34 PM
Author: Allison D.

Jason, believe it or not, there are some people who ARE in search of the purple stew because they''re in Belgium and they want authentic Belgian stew.
That is a VERY small percentage of the stew buying public.

Date: 7/23/2008 6:47:34 PM
Author: Allison D.

However, let''s run with your position that they do think it''s the best stew in the world. So, then, should you go tell Paul''s mother to stop making her stew with purple food coloring just because it confuses people who can''t grasp that there is more than one kind of great stew?
I absolutely would not. I like the purple stew too.

Date: 7/23/2008 6:47:34 PM
Author: Allison D.

Do you really think that if I go to Paul''s house with MY non-purple stew and ask them to taste both stews that people aren''t bright enough to grasp that both stews are equally good? Not only will some of them agree that my stew is just as good......GASP......some people may even prefer my non-purple stew.
ABSOLUTELY. Do you really, honestly believe that people are not influenced by what they are told? Let''s leave the colored stew aside for a minute but stick with food in general. Do a double blind taste test. Both samples are EXACTLY the same. Tell them sample ''A'' one is made with better ingredients. I guarantee more people will choose sample ''A'' as their favorite.

Date: 7/23/2008 6:47:34 PM
Author: Allison D.
In fact, what are they going to do when I place TWO bowls of stew in front of each diner....one purple and one not purple....and BOTH versions are made by Paul''s mother!!!!!!!!!! Will one taste different than the other then?
No, they will taste the same. But I guarantee that more people will tell you the purple soup is better! Because that''s what they have come to believe.
 

Indira-London

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Messages
308
I have followed this long running thread with interest and resisted joining in but here is my observations based on a client experience today. That experience and this thread so far call to mind the old debate : "Do trees still make a noise when they fall if no-one is there to hear them?".

Today, I happen to present 3 diamonds - one had "true H&A" and the other two were equally well-cut but without true H&A. None of these diamonds had a "H&A" premium (there was no mention of H&A on the cert for either - the one that was a true H&A would probably not get the new HRD H&A grade as it was an SI1 though a really small white inclusion on the side)

When presented with the choice of diamonds - she struggled to decide between two of the diamonds that were closest to her budget: a 0.74 G SI1 (true H&A) and a 0.76 carat I VVS1 (equally well-cut but not true H&A pattern) which she saw in person in various lighting conditions (under natural daylight lamp and white card, under the table, as well as face-up in bright sunshine) as well as viewed with an idealscope and ASET as well as x10 loupe. In the end she decided on the diamond that she knew to be the better colour (G) though both face-up looked "the same" to her as well as under the various analyses.

It was only once she had made up her mind, that I decided to show her both from a perspective of the H&A viewer: she loved the patterns in both and was pleased that hers had the "Hearts" but appreciated that she would never be able to see the patterns when the diamonds were set and when asked whether she would have paid a premium for the real hearts pattern - she replied only if it had meant that the diamond was a better performer!

So like the trees question - whether the heart shape is important seems to depend on whether the client appreciates it or not and its only in the context of better performance (or Romance of the heart shape) that most clients would pay extra for the true H&A patterns.
 

Regular Guy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
5,951
Date: 7/23/2008 7:29:41 PM
Author: Indira-London

So like the trees question - whether the heart shape is important seems to depend on whether the client appreciates it or not and its only in the context of better performance (or Romance of the heart shape) that most clients would pay extra for the true H&A patterns.
If comparing a Chevy with fully inflated tires, and a Rolls Royce with deflated tires, and the shopper only knows to kick the tires...we do not attribute wisdom to the shopper''s shopping strategy when they pick the Chevy.
 

agc

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
111
Date: 7/23/2008 6:04:59 PM
Author: Allison D.

Date: 7/23/2008 5:29:15 PM
Author: purrfectpear




Date: 7/23/2008 5:17:16 PM
Author: jasontb
Paul, I *think* I understood your analogy, but if I do, it is a bit flawed. The pear syrup and mustard affected the essential characteristic of the stew...it''s flavor. But the presence of the heart pattern does not affect the essential characteristic of the diamond...it''s appearance. I would argue your analogy should be more along the lines of:

When we, Belgians, talk of preparing stew, we all remember that our mothers would add some purple food coloring to the stew. For us, that makes the stew really good.

However, most important are of course the other ingredients, which we, Belgians, do not consider, because we think it logical to use fine meat of various animals.

Now it''s a fair comparison, because the purple didn''t make the stew taste better, and the hearts didn''t make the diamond look better.

And to reiterate my point, rephrased in your analogy, the problem is that 99% of the world is convinced that purple stew tastes better.
Because sellers of purple stew use terms like the ''Ultimate in stew'' and make it a point to refer to lavender stew as ''False Purple Stew''
LOL - that''s hysterical!
But.........not exactly.

If Belgians, as the creators of the stew dish, always make stew with #10 purple food coloring and I am a tourist who wants to sample ''real'' or ''traditional'' quintessential Belgian stew, you can bet that I''m going to look for the stew that shows #10 purple.

I''m sure it''s possible that some Belgians are crappy cooks (sorry, Paul, but they exist in every culture), so of course I recognize that the mere fact that the stew is #10 purple doesn''t guarantee it will be the best tasting stew. In fact, others stews (including the #13 lavendar) may actually taste better, and if they do, I''ll of course eat the better tasting stews instead even if they aren''t #10 purple.

If I find a seller who has both #10 purple stew and #13 lavender stew and find that the #10 purple stew doesn''t smell as good or look as appetizing as the #13 stew, then I''m sure I''d bypass the #10 stew in favor of the #13 stew.

HOWEVER, if both the #10 purple coloring stew and the #13 lavender coloring stew both look and smell equally appetizing and they taste materially the same, I''m probably *personally* inclined to pick the #10 stew because it feels ''more authentic'' to me.

It may not matter to you, and you should not pick your stew based on what I like or what I think is authentic. If you don''t give a whit about authenticity, or you think purple stew looks unappealing (whether it tastes better or worse than other stews), then you shouldn''t care about what color ''real'' Belgin stew is.

But, that doesn''t mean that people should stop having to note that traditional, authentic Belgian stew is typically made with #10 purple food coloring and that #13 lavender falls outside the traditional definiton of Belgian stew.
Allison, but what happens if people traveling to Belgium are told and shown tutorials that the ultimate/perfect Belgian stew is #10 purple and #13 lavender "FAILS" and they do not mention that both stews taste the same and have the exact same ingredients except the "patterning" food coloring? Most would go for the #10 and many who tasted both would probably say #10 was far better due to the information they were told about #10 being the ultimate.
 
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