Tips on handling a "spirited child"?

[TravelingGal]

OK, right off the bat let me say that I know this is none of my business and I do not intend to hand out unsolicited advice. But...in case she ASKS....

Let me give real quick background:

My friend has a 2 year, 4 month old son, who while very charming when he is happy, is very difficult when he is not. I have mentioned him on and off here before (he''s the one I thought might be cross-eyed). This child has very little boundaries.

Of course, he has no boundaries because my friend does not give him very many. A recent example was 4 days ago when we were at a restaurant and he stood up on his high chair. She said, "Sit down. I said sit down. I''m going to count to three and then you get a spanking! One...two...three! ..... Sit down. I said, sit down. OK...one...two...three...Sit down. Sit! One...two...ugh. (light tap on the thigh), Sit down!"

We ended up bribing him to sit down with something and the above is not an exaggeration...she did three nearly three sets of "One, two, three." He just glared at her and said "No!" each time she asked him to sit down.

OK, so the problem is obviously she is not firm with him and she needs to practice that. But she is afraid of this kid. He can scream. Nonstop. For 30 minutes or more. Way more. At full pitch. He is the kid who the church ladies had to call in his my friend because he was having a fit at being left there (I have never seen them give in on a kid since I''ve been going, which has been a couple of weeks now). I could hear him when he was in a different part of the church and over the pastor''s sermon. He''s loud. She''s scared that he''ll throw these tantrums so she gives in because now he has a will of steel and WILL NOT STOP.

She''s also pregnant, so she''s tired. She told me recently that now she lets him do whatever he wants around the house because she''s so exhausted to deal with it. She doesn''t really spank him (her efforts are lame anyway), and hasn''t tried time outs. My guess is that time outs may not work because he can scream for so soooo long (and usually don''t you take a kid out after he''s calmed down) that he will wear her down before it has any effectiveness.

The kicker in all of this is that I''m apparently not the only one who notices it. Recently other friends in the group have said things to me about her handling of her son without my bringing it up. They get frustrated when it comes to hanging out because she can''t manage him, and they have to step in and try to help (which is stressful for them because they have young toddlers of their own). I haven''t said anything because, really, who''s going to be receptive to knowing something like that...and what''s it really going to help?

But I''m wondering, is there an effective way to try and teach a kid at this point some good boundaries? Or based on what I am telling you, is it a lost cause?

 

[monarch64]

I know this won''t be received well...but I can''t help myself.

 

[jewelz617]

Lost cause? No way. The kid is acting up because he has no boundaries or consequences.

My daughter is not even 2 yet but she's stopped throwing tantrums almost completely. This is because I ignore her and remove her from the situation. Even if it's inconvenient or embarrassing, I still do it to keep the tantrums from blowing up into something unmanageable. I understand that kids get frustrated because they can't communicate exactly what they want much of the time, but there are better ways to ask than being disrespectful.

If we are at the grocery store and she screams for a cookie, I abandon my cart and we leave the store. Not only does she not get a cookie, she goes straight into the crib for a time out. We had to do this TWICE, and never again.

I don't yell, I don't lose my temper, I just ignore and remove. This has been annoying if we're at someone's house or at a party, but I swear it works. But you have to be consistent. If you try to be a taskmaster but give up when it's getting frustrating, kids see right through it and know that you're not serious. My attitude is however loud she can scream is ok, because ultimately I'm the one with the car!

Best of luck to your friend, but I think a few weeks of that would help a lot. Eventually the child will realize "Obviously this way isn't working, let me try asking nicely." They realize it's better to work with mommy than against her.

 

[monarch64]

Date: 2/25/2010 1:00:09 PM
Author: PinkAsscher678
Lost cause? No way. The kid is acting up because he has no boundaries or consequences.

My daughter is not even 2 yet but she''s stopped throwing tantrums almost completely. This is because I ignore her and remove her from the situation. Even if it''s inconvenient or embarrassing, I still do it to keep the tantrums from blowing up into something unmanageable. I understand that kids get frustrated because they can''t communicate exactly what they want much of the time, but there are better ways to ask than being disrespectful.

If we are at the grocery store and she screams for a cookie, I abandon my cart and we leave the store. Not only does she not get a cookie, she goes straight into the crib for a time out. We had to do this TWICE, and never again.

I don''t yell, I don''t lose my temper, I just ignore and remove. This has been annoying if we''re at someone''s house or at a party, but I swear it works. But you have to be consistent. If you try to be a taskmaster but give up when it''s getting frustrating, kids see right through it and know that you''re not serious. My attitude is however loud she can scream is ok, because ultimately I''m the one with the car!

Best of luck to your friend, but I think a few weeks of that would help a lot. Eventually the child will realize ''Obviously this way isn''t working, let me try asking nicely.'' They realize it''s better to work with mommy than against her.

I''ve seen this work before. My best friend taught her toddler consequences as soon as she was able to understand the concept. When she took her daughter to Costco, A would say "what happens if you misbehave" and the child would answer "we leave immediately." (Which sounded more like "we weave immediatewy.") That kid knew what was expected of her from the time she was 2.

 

[meresal]

With a "Spirit Stick"

To be honest, I think she has already lost her respect in this child's eyes. Mom and Dad need to decide to be stern and get over the "I must please my child" aspect.

This is my sister 10 years ago... luckily the kids have grown out of screaming, but they still demand things everytime they step foot in a store and expect to be given things at every party. My sister's husband never came in with the stern fist. IMO, a child cannot control TWO parents, there must be one missing.

Pink- I like your "go home now" approach... however, I have to say, I am not a fan of the ignoring the child in a public place. There is a point where it becomes VERY annoying to the people around. That is the "go home now" moment... and the child no longer gets to go out with mommy and daddy until they can behave.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/25/2010 1:00:09 PM
Author: PinkAsscher678
Lost cause? No way. The kid is acting up because he has no boundaries or consequences.

My daughter is not even 2 yet but she''s stopped throwing tantrums almost completely. This is because I ignore her and remove her from the situation. Even if it''s inconvenient or embarrassing, I still do it to keep the tantrums from blowing up into something unmanageable. I understand that kids get frustrated because they can''t communicate exactly what they want much of the time, but there are better ways to ask than being disrespectful.

If we are at the grocery store and she screams for a cookie, I abandon my cart and we leave the store. Not only does she not get a cookie, she goes straight into the crib for a time out. We had to do this TWICE, and never again.

I don''t yell, I don''t lose my temper, I just ignore and remove. This has been annoying if we''re at someone''s house or at a party, but I swear it works. But you have to be consistent. If you try to be a taskmaster but give up when it''s getting frustrating, kids see right through it and know that you''re not serious. My attitude is however loud she can scream is ok, because ultimately I''m the one with the car!

Best of luck to your friend, but I think a few weeks of that would help a lot. Eventually the child will realize ''Obviously this way isn''t working, let me try asking nicely.'' They realize it''s better to work with mommy than against her.

I don''t think that''s going to work with her, although I totally agree with the idea in principle (and plan to use something similar with my own child.) Let''s say she''s at a restaurant and he starts chucking a fruity. She removes him and takes him out of the restaurant. He''ll either scream for an hour and outlast her (because remember, she is who she is and can''t deal with him well) OR say she actually just takes him home. That makes him as happy as Larry and he could not care less since he''s no longer being forecd to do the thing he doesn''t want to do.

In your grocery store example, he''d probably scream all the way home. Her nerves would be frayed. If she put him in time out (which she has never tried), he would scream for an hour and be able to outlast her, wearing her down. He would also probably get violent and trash around in the crib and she would be concerned he was hurting himself.

Me, I''d still deal with it, but her, no way. I''m wondering if someone with her personality is not going to be strong enough to handle this kid.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Duct tape sounds like it might come in handy once in awhile with this kid. Or a muzzle and a cattle prod.

What''s the dad''s involvement in this? Does he parent at all?

 

[jewelz617]

Date: 2/25/2010 1:09:06 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 2/25/2010 1:00:09 PM

Author: PinkAsscher678

Lost cause? No way. The kid is acting up because he has no boundaries or consequences.


My daughter is not even 2 yet but she''s stopped throwing tantrums almost completely. This is because I ignore her and remove her from the situation. Even if it''s inconvenient or embarrassing, I still do it to keep the tantrums from blowing up into something unmanageable. I understand that kids get frustrated because they can''t communicate exactly what they want much of the time, but there are better ways to ask than being disrespectful.


If we are at the grocery store and she screams for a cookie, I abandon my cart and we leave the store. Not only does she not get a cookie, she goes straight into the crib for a time out. We had to do this TWICE, and never again.


I don''t yell, I don''t lose my temper, I just ignore and remove. This has been annoying if we''re at someone''s house or at a party, but I swear it works. But you have to be consistent. If you try to be a taskmaster but give up when it''s getting frustrating, kids see right through it and know that you''re not serious. My attitude is however loud she can scream is ok, because ultimately I''m the one with the car!


Best of luck to your friend, but I think a few weeks of that would help a lot. Eventually the child will realize ''Obviously this way isn''t working, let me try asking nicely.'' They realize it''s better to work with mommy than against her.

I don''t think that''s going to work with her, although I totally agree with the idea in principle (and plan to use something similar with my own child.) Let''s say she''s at a restaurant and he starts chucking a fruity. She removes him and takes him out of the restaurant. He''ll either scream for an hour and outlast her (because remember, she is who she is and can''t deal with him well) OR say she actually just takes him home. That makes him as happy as Larry and he could not care less since he''s no longer being forecd to do the thing he doesn''t want to do.


In your grocery store example, he''d probably scream all the way home. Her nerves would be frayed. If she put him in time out (which she has never tried), he would scream for an hour and be able to outlast her, wearing her down. He would also probably get violent and trash around in the crib and she would be concerned he was hurting himself.


Me, I''d still deal with it, but her, no way. I''m wondering if someone with her personality is not going to be strong enough to handle this kid.

Unfortunately if that''s the case, I don''t see how she is ever going to deal with 2 screaming children. No offense, but parenting is about being the calm no nonsense example to set for kids. My daughter has gone on some scream-fests for sure. But I know the difference between her being hurt, or cold or hungry and just being peeved because she didn''t get her way.

Parenting is about having a steel spine sometimes, and unfortunately it''s a major disservice to children to not have boundaries and consequences. I''m sure we all know someone who seemingly had no structure as a child... not a pretty picture when they become adults.

 

[janinegirly]

No advice since still learning myself and enjoying reading the various approaches.

But oh my this child can scream that much for that long?? I do feel kind of bad for your friend--I know she''s may''ve created the monster so to speak, but it''s got to be tough being preggo at the same time!

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/25/2010 1:12:06 PM
Author: Hudson_Hawk
Duct tape sounds like it might come in handy once in awhile with this kid. Or a muzzle and a cattle prod.

What''s the dad''s involvement in this? Does he parent at all?

This is where it gets even trickier..

HE is the one who wants to be more strict. However, there is a vicious cycle here. Once, when this kid was out of control (in their own house), I heard (from a mutual friend) that he spanked the kid. My friend later told her DH that he shouldn''t do that because all the kid will be traumatized by the spanking and to never hit him again. Not sure how true this story is (because I don''t think she''s actually opposed to spanking).

2 Sundays ago, we went to the aquarium with them. We went to a Korean restaurant afterward. The kid was playing with water, ice and making a huge mess and the DH said, "[Insert kid''s name here], don''t do that!" My friend just muttered, "leave him alone...he''s occupied, isn''t he?" I knew her DH wanted to say something, but he chose not to pick that battle.

Because she is the primary caretaker (she works from home), she sets the boundaries, or lack thereof. When he comes home, he has an unmanagable child on his hands and is left with the choice of spending a lot of energy disciplining (which I hear he does try to do) or leave things be because he''s tired too. And he can TRY to discipline his son but because of the lack of boundaries, it is really difficult. I have seen the son respond a lot quicker to the dad though, because he is far more stern.

So whether the DH wants to "parent", the fact is he sees the kid in one hour bookends each day. He''s active, helps where he can (bathes and puts the kid down every night). He''s not that keen on being left alone with the kid on weekends (although he does it) because the kid can be such a difficult child and it doesn''t matter how he THINKS they should parent, it''s not in her personality to be consistent.

Lost cause, huh?

A few of the guys in the group are now saying they are going to speak harshly to the kid the next time the kid does something around their kid. I think that would hurt my friend''s feelings, but it''s really a self inflicted wound at this point. And I''m not sure she''s aware of how bad it''s getting...but I don''t think unsolicited advice is ever appreciated.

For the record, she thinks her kid isn''t that bad, but she does admit to being scared of him.

 

[TravelingGal]

PA, I think if she asks, I''ll suggest the ignore and remove. Not sure how it will work out though.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

I don''t think it''s a lost cause situation. I think the dad needs to grow a set and call out the mom on her frustration and apathy and then they need to get on the same page in regards to discipline. In one regard the fact that he''s not around much might benefit them in the long run because really, he''s the unknown. He''s the dad who swoops in at the end of the day and tells stories, plays in the bath and gives hugs and kisses. He''s not the mean mommy with buttons to push. For him (the dad) to start disciplining would show that while he kid may pull the wool over his mom''s eyes, dad will always know and will always take care of the situation, man-to-man. No little boy wants to disappoint his daddy.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Can you locate and download any episodes of the british Super Nanny for her? It is much better than the US one and gives good tips. Also, there is a Canadian show call "Life''s Real Families" where a developmental psychologist goes and helps parents learn better parenting skills. It is very down to earth and useful.

I don''t want to be blunt, but she needs to grow a pair and batten down the hatches and give the kid some boundaries. His screaming is a learned behaviour. Extreme, yes, but it gets him what he wants. He screams for 30 minutes? Put him in the car if you are out or in his room at home. So what if he screams? Let hims scream in a safe place, check on him to make sure he isn''t hurting himself. He will figure out pretty soon that it doesn''t accomplish his goals. Kids tantrum the first time because they are frustrated and can''t communicate. Kids keep tantruming because it works, pure and simple. If she reorganizes her life for a week or so in such a way that allows her to put him in a safe place when he tantrums, then he will most likely stop.

If she feels at a loss with him, she can go see a develomental psychologist herself to learn some parenting skills if she is inclined as well. Is her son''s language well developed? Tantrums are much more likely with kids who have delayed language development because they get frustrated. Again, these are things a developmental clinical psychologist can help with. She doesn''t have to live this way.

 

[jas]

If SuperNanny is as super as she says, then no, it''s not too late.

As far as ignore and remove...so far I''ve only had one tantrum to deal with...here at home. I remember my brother throwing a tantrum at the store when he was 2 or 3...and going home was more of a reward, so my mom removed him from the store, stayed outside with him, and when he calmed down, they walked back into the store. He started tantruming again, and she did the same. Ultimately, she finished her shopping and my brother calmed down and ended up enjoying the time. I think that if the location is a fun one for kids, leaving and going home is the right thing. (Like if they are at the park or playground.)

My parents also would remind us of expectations before going anywhere, especially dinners with other families. We practiced conversations, too.

Mom: If someone asks you if you like school, what do you say?
Us: Yes or no and give a reason.
Mom: If someone asks you if you want brussel sprouts, what do you do?
Us: Take a no-thank you helping (a "no thank you" helping was when we would take one or two bites of something we hated.)

Now, this got old when we hit 10, but we were always considered polite and good conversationalists. Of course now that I''m an adult and my mother doesn''t quiz me before outings, I''m not as polite nor as good a conversationalist.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 2/25/2010 1:09:06 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 2/25/2010 1:00:09 PM
Author: PinkAsscher678
Lost cause? No way. The kid is acting up because he has no boundaries or consequences.

My daughter is not even 2 yet but she''s stopped throwing tantrums almost completely. This is because I ignore her and remove her from the situation. Even if it''s inconvenient or embarrassing, I still do it to keep the tantrums from blowing up into something unmanageable. I understand that kids get frustrated because they can''t communicate exactly what they want much of the time, but there are better ways to ask than being disrespectful.

If we are at the grocery store and she screams for a cookie, I abandon my cart and we leave the store. Not only does she not get a cookie, she goes straight into the crib for a time out. We had to do this TWICE, and never again.

I don''t yell, I don''t lose my temper, I just ignore and remove. This has been annoying if we''re at someone''s house or at a party, but I swear it works. But you have to be consistent. If you try to be a taskmaster but give up when it''s getting frustrating, kids see right through it and know that you''re not serious. My attitude is however loud she can scream is ok, because ultimately I''m the one with the car!

Best of luck to your friend, but I think a few weeks of that would help a lot. Eventually the child will realize ''Obviously this way isn''t working, let me try asking nicely.'' They realize it''s better to work with mommy than against her.

I don''t think that''s going to work with her, although I totally agree with the idea in principle (and plan to use something similar with my own child.) Let''s say she''s at a restaurant and he starts chucking a fruity. She removes him and takes him out of the restaurant. He''ll either scream for an hour and outlast her (because remember, she is who she is and can''t deal with him well) OR say she actually just takes him home. That makes him as happy as Larry and he could not care less since he''s no longer being forecd to do the thing he doesn''t want to do.

In your grocery store example, he''d probably scream all the way home. Her nerves would be frayed. If she put him in time out (which she has never tried), he would scream for an hour and be able to outlast her, wearing her down. He would also probably get violent and trash around in the crib and she would be concerned he was hurting himself.

Me, I''d still deal with it, but her, no way. I''m wondering if someone with her personality is not going to be strong enough to handle this kid.

This is the type of activity then that she might need to abandon while she is doing parenting boot campe with her son. As I mentioned, she can simply arrange her life so that she can devote her attention to this issue for a couple of weeks, and then it will all be better. If he would be happy about going home, the tantrum can happen in the car, in his car seat where he can''t hurt himself, and when he calms you go back to the restaurant. Sure, you hung around for an hour in the parking lot. Sure you Dh paid the check, but you can still go back in, ask your son to perhaps say sorry to the nice server for being rude, maybe sit in the lobby area for a bit, then give him lots of hugs and tell him how great he is. Anyways, yup, it takes effort. But so does living her life the way she has been.

 

[MonkeyPie]

Date: 2/25/2010 1:41:51 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie
He screams for 30 minutes? Put him in the car if you are out or in his room at home. So what if he screams? Let hims scream in a safe place, check on him to make sure he isn''t hurting himself. He will figure out pretty soon that it doesn''t accomplish his goals.

I like this idea, and know some moms that have done this when their kid gets out of hand. It usually only takes one or two times leaving them strapped in the car seat while mom goes in the house - he will think he''s getting what he wants by getting away from the place he didn''t want to be, but then he won''t get any attention at all.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Date: 2/25/2010 1:52:54 PM
Author: MonkeyPie

Date: 2/25/2010 1:41:51 PM

Author: dreamer_dachsie

He screams for 30 minutes? Put him in the car if you are out or in his room at home. So what if he screams? Let hims scream in a safe place, check on him to make sure he isn''t hurting himself. He will figure out pretty soon that it doesn''t accomplish his goals.

I like this idea, and know some moms that have done this when their kid gets out of hand. It usually only takes one or two times leaving them strapped in the car seat while mom goes in the house - he will think he''s getting what he wants by getting away from the place he didn''t want to be, but then he won''t get any attention at all.

Yea, just watch the neighbors who might be walking by and never do this in front of a Walmart!

 

[Jas12]

Oy, a tricky one. I don''t have much advice but do know that kids can sense fear.

She has to decide if she really wants to do something. If she thinks her kid isn''t that bad, it makes me think she isn''t going to put in the effort. If it were my kid, i''d take drastic measures, leave places, read up on the issue etc. etc. I would also probably ''set up'' learning opportunities (we do this in teaching
high-needs kids sometimes). I''d take him some place he wants to be, set some really reasonable and clear limits and wait and watch. As soon as he acts up, i''d give the warning, then take him away if he didn''t listen. This has to happen a few times to get the message across, and the idea is that the behaviour modification should eventually transfer to other times/places too. I agree that in a restaurant or store he probably won''t care to leave, but a park or activity might be different.

I don''t think that "spirited kid = bad behaviour" , but i do think it means more work for the parent. I think parents use their kid''s temperment as an excuse some of the time. Kinda like "well, my kid''s spirited so i can''t help it if they don''t listen" . I''ve spent a lot of time with wonderful spirited kids, and devilish spirited kids. Unfortunately your friend didn''t nip this in the bud and now she has a lot of work ahead of her!

We all know that if you give the kid an inch they''ll take a mile. Spirited kids take 10.

 

[cara]

My brother figured out how to manipulate my parents at age 2-3 and they never figured out how to stop it... Not exactly the same setup but part of the problem was the parents not wanting to set and enforce consistent boundaries with reasonable methods. My parents never got on the same page discipline-wise, each parents''s methods actively undermined the others, and it was like a dance playing out again and again and again for years. There was one spell when my brother got really sick late in elementary school and they went to a therapist for some counseling for a brief period and that was the one phase where they seemed to be working effectively at parenting him. But it passed, my father stopped ''believing'' in therapy, and my mother preferred to go back to the dysfunctional system where she would end up giving in after a battle. Brother now a young adult and still learning some basic life lessons.

I can''t emphasize enough how harmful this was to my brother, and ultimately my parent''s marriage. If this woman is way stressed out and even you seem to realize she will need skills that she currently lacks, I think the right recommendation is to take this to the pros. I don''t know if that is a parenting class or a child therapist, or a therapist for the parents to teach them effective methods and provide support for enforcing those methods and altering them as the child ages, but clearly this family needs some help.

Just from my experience, I don''t think this woman should consider spanking as part of her parenting toolkit. It is way more harmful to the dynamic to threaten and not follow through or follow through with a spank that is not really a punishment than it is to simply rule that out as an option and use other methods. And if she''s not comfortable spanking, its not going to be an effective tool. This coming from someone who as a teen realized ineffective boundary setting was probably worse in the long-term than just letting the kid do what they want. I mostly stopped trying to ''help'' or set boundaries with my brother because I knew they would not stick in the end.

 

[TravelingGal]

All good advice. And I feel kind of sick reading it because she won''t do it, I know it. She''s not going to grow a pair. Ack.

DD, funny you should mention the speech thing. She had him checked out. There''s certain criteria that have to be met before he can get the free therapy that our local govt sponsored clinic offered and he met the criteria. His speech is 25% below kids his age, which means right now he''s at the level of about a 19 month old. She had an appointment to get his hearing checked this week because if there is nothing wrong with his hearing, she can start taking him to therapy. She said she wasn''t concerned about his speech because kids will talk at their own pace. That''s true, but I mentioned that this would be great because of exactly the point you brought up...that kids will start to get more and more frustrated as they get older and aren''t able to ge understood.

The kid doesn''t talk much...just parrots. This is the kind of stuff where I wonder about nature/nuture. My friend is not talkative and and his nanny who speaks mainly spanish doesn''t talk much either. Because his screaming gets him what he wants, there''s no need for him to verbally ask.

It''s like this giant snowball that''s gotten out of control. I''ve only known her 4 years now...we get along great, but this is definitely starting to be an area of stress. And the boy IS sweet...when he wants to be.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/25/2010 2:04:37 PM
Author: Jas12
Oy, a tricky one. I don''t have much advice but do know that kids can sense fear.

She has to decide if she really wants to do something. If she thinks her kid isn''t that bad, it makes me think she isn''t going to put in the effort. If it were my kid, i''d take drastic measures, leave places, read up on the issue etc. etc. I would also probably ''set up'' learning opportunities (we do this in teaching
high-needs kids sometimes). I''d take him some place he wants to be, set some really reasonable and clear limits and wait and watch. As soon as he acts up, i''d give the warning, then take him away if he didn''t listen. This has to happen a few times to get the message across, and the idea is that the behaviour modification should eventually transfer to other times/places too. I agree that in a restaurant or store he probably won''t care to leave, but a park or activity might be different.

I don''t think that ''spirited kid = bad behaviour'' , but i do think it means more work for the parent. I think parents use their kid''s temperment as an excuse some of the time. Kinda like ''well, my kid''s spirited so i can''t help it if they don''t listen'' . I''ve spent a lot of time with wonderful spirited kids, and devilish spirited kids. Unfortunately your friend didn''t nip this in the bud and now she has a lot of work ahead of her!

We all know that if you give the kid an inch they''ll take a mile. Spirited kids take 10.

Good idea Jas...I''ll suggest that. Not sure where that place is, as he''s usually happy to leave the park or whatever.

 

[E B]

Date: 2/25/2010 1:41:51 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie

I don''t want to be blunt, but she needs to grow a pair and batten down the hatches and give the kid some boundaries. His screaming is a learned behaviour. Extreme, yes, but it gets him what he wants. He screams for 30 minutes? Put him in the car if you are out or in his room at home. So what if he screams? Let hims scream in a safe place, check on him to make sure he isn''t hurting himself. He will figure out pretty soon that it doesn''t accomplish his goals. Kids tantrum the first time because they are frustrated and can''t communicate. Kids keep tantruming because it works, pure and simple. If she reorganizes her life for a week or so in such a way that allows her to put him in a safe place when he tantrums, then he will most likely stop.

If she feels at a loss with him, she can go see a develomental psychologist herself to learn some parenting skills if she is inclined as well. Is her son''s language well developed? Tantrums are much more likely with kids who have delayed language development because they get frustrated. Again, these are things a developmental clinical psychologist can help with. She doesn''t have to live this way.

I agree with both of these ideas. It sounds like he screams for an hour or more because eventually, mom gives in. If mom lets him scream in a safe place until he''s exhausted, quiet, and ready to cooperate, he should get the message.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/25/2010 2:11:11 PM
Author: cara
My brother figured out how to manipulate my parents at age 2-3 and they never figured out how to stop it... Not exactly the same setup but part of the problem was the parents not wanting to set and enforce consistent boundaries with reasonable methods. My parents never got on the same page discipline-wise, each parents''s methods actively undermined the others, and it was like a dance playing out again and again and again for years. There was one spell when my brother got really sick late in elementary school and they went to a therapist for some counseling for a brief period and that was the one phase where they seemed to be working effectively at parenting him. But it passed, my father stopped ''believing'' in therapy, and my mother preferred to go back to the dysfunctional system where she would end up giving in after a battle. Brother now a young adult and still learning some basic life lessons.

I can''t emphasize enough how harmful this was to my brother, and ultimately my parent''s marriage. If this woman is way stressed out and even you seem to realize she will need skills that she currently lacks, I think the right recommendation is to take this to the pros. I don''t know if that is a parenting class or a child therapist, or a therapist for the parents to teach them effective methods and provide support for enforcing those methods and altering them as the child ages, but clearly this family needs some help.

Just from my experience, I don''t think this woman should consider spanking as part of her parenting toolkit. It is way more harmful to the dynamic to threaten and not follow through or follow through with a spank that is not really a punishment than it is to simply rule that out as an option and use other methods. And if she''s not comfortable spanking, its not going to be an effective tool. This coming from someone who as a teen realized ineffective boundary setting was probably worse in the long-term than just letting the kid do what they want. I mostly stopped trying to ''help'' or set boundaries with my brother because I knew they would not stick in the end.

Cara, while I do think think spanking can be an effective tool, I totally agree that in this case it is not. She can''t utilize it effectively. And she hates doing it, so why do so? She saw Amelia''s new "time out cage" (not as good as the one Monnie put up) and said to me "hm, maybe I should try that...I like that he can''t get out of it."

For those of you that do use time outs, do you take them out if they are screaming and crying? I use the 1 minute for every year of age rule. After 2 minutes, I go over and quietly tell Amelia to calm down. I''m at her level, soothing her. I then again say "No throw. Throw means time out." She''s fine and I take her out. However her kid would scream until he was taken out is my guess, so would that only reinforce that if he screams, he gets out? She can''t leave him in there for an hour...can she?

Hm.

 

[swingirl]

Sounds like your friend is raising a wild brat that isn''t being taught self control at home so, of course, he''s not going to behave in public. But this is a difficult age for kids and sometimes they don''t belong in public!

Knowing that he is uncontrollable she should not be taking him places where adult behavior is expected. This little boy should be spending time in a park where if he behaves badly, and has to be removed, really does care. What 2 year old cares whether or not he gets removed from a restaurant or grocery store? But make him leave a park---where he actually wants to be---and after a few times he will learn.

Honestly I would not take a 2 year old to a restaurant with a girlfriend. I wouldn''t take him to museums either. If he is impulsive and has more energy than his mother, he should be kept very busy and physically active.

 

[Aloros]

Unfortunately, the key here is consistency. If your friend is not willing to show consistency, then her son's behavior won't change. If she puts him in time-out and then eventually gives in when he screams for an hour or more, she is showing him that screaming is how you get what you want, and that sometimes, you have to scream for a really long time to get what you want.

She has to outlast him. If she does it just once (and it'll be an ordeal, since she didn't nip this in the bud), the next time he'll scream for less time, the next time for less, and so on and so forth. I totally agree about putting him in his room. He'll do less throwing things, etc., because your friend won't be there to provide him with a reaction. He's trying to mortify her because, again, that's how he gets what he wants.

Another thing that might help is that as soon as he takes a break from screaming, or as soon as his volume decreases, she can step in with some praise. Catch him being good.

I think as soon as she can get over that hurdle of outlasting him the first time, it'll get easier from there. Earplugs, maybe?

ETA: My brother was an extremely spirited child. My parents tell us about one time where he threw a huge fit, and they ended up having to put him in his room, and put a chair against the door until he calmed down! When he got older, and started to care about how he came across to other people, my mother would take photos of him throwing his tantrums and show them to him later.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/25/2010 2:24:23 PM
Author: swingirl
Sounds like your friend is raising a wild brat that isn''t being taught self control at home so, of course, he''s not going to behave in public. But this is a difficult age for kids and sometimes they don''t belong in public!

Knowing that he is uncontrollable she should not be taking him places where adult behavior is expected. This little boy should be spending time in a park where if he behaves badly, and has to be removed, really does care. What 2 year old cares whether or not he gets removed from a restaurant or grocery store? But make him leave a park---where he actually wants to be---and after a few times he will learn.

Honestly I would not take a 2 year old to a restaurant with a girlfriend. I wouldn''t take him to museums either. If he is impulsive and has more energy than his mother, he should be kept very busy and physically active.

For the record, both our kids are usually totally manageable at restaurants. Her son can sit for an hour or more if amused. He just went with us to Lawry''s in Beverly Hills (we didn''t think they were going to bring him, but they had a last minute change of plans.) He did beautifully, but he did spill one glass of water, and had to watch Yo Gabba Gabba on her blackberry for the last hour. Still not a peep out of him the entire time for two hours. Honestly, I was impressed. It''s not fair to ask a kid to sit for that long.

However, when it''s a miss for him, it can be a big miss. And she has to entertain him in ways I don''t necessarily approve. Salt and pepper shakers, making major messes with water and ice, etc. But minor in that maybe that''s my preference, and not a huge sin? Hm. He did throw several grapes and cheerios at me the other day though....

Yeah, I do think it''s going to be tough...and I wasn''t sure it''s possible, but just trying to get some ideas in case you all have done something that I haven''t thought of.

I always take Amelia to restaurants...how else to teach her how to behave in public? I''ve not had an issue since I started doing it...when she was old enough to sit in a highchair (6 months old). She''s learned to sit and be well behaved, but I always make sure the place is kid appropriate, just in case she turns into a monster one day. Maybe she simply doesn''t have it in her.

She''s coming over for lunch. I''m still not saying anything, but usually she tells me how things are going with him.

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

I have a tantrum-thrower too. She gets over it very, very fast though. I think that''s the difference. How much screaming could I actually cope with before I crack? Not sure. She''s always sorry afterwards, I find that part quite interesting.

So far, A has saved her best efforts for home. I''ve never had a public meltdown (although I''m sure it''s quite possible...). I decided early on that tantrums will be ignored. No eye contact, no picking up or soothing in the I want my own way phase, leave the room if it''s safe. She stops when the audience walk out - most performers will do that.

I got a really good book that might help - Toddler Taming, by Christopher Green. It''s very readable and practical, without being preachy. This man understands boys like your friend''s. Knows what makes them tick and how to work them! I''d highly recommend getting your friend a copy. He deals with parents'' fear of difficult toddlers.


Removing the screamer from the situation in public is probably smart, but I agree that this could be a great reinforcement of the behaviour if she isn''t careful. I hate being in the grocery store, so I''ll scream. I scream, they take me out of the grocery store. Result. As for spanking, I dont'' suppose there''s any merit in expounding my own views here, so I''ll content myself with saying that the worst behaved children I know are parented by spankers. Cause or effect? I can''t say for sure, but I have my suspicions.

Swingirl, some children are fine in restaurants. A is nearly two and I can take her to restaurants and museums with no problems at all. These are both things she loves to do. Eating grown up food with cutlery in a restaurant is the thing she loves best and we do it often, without tantrums, meltdowns or baby-as-centre-of- attention scenario. I pack some crayons and paper for when she''s done eating and we can easily do two courses and coffee before she gets twitchy. I think she quite likes people watching.

 

[lknvrb4]

My four year old daughter is a spirited child. She has tested me since the time I have given birth to her. Her father and I got divorced when she was 1.5. She lives with me and my new husband. She is ok most days but then she will get into a streak and it can last for a day or a few days. Most of the time it starts with her not following the rules which leads to a timeout. Once in timeout its not being quiet while in timeout. Sometimes its flopping on the floor screaming. We got to the point where we ignored her and explained that her timeout with not start until she is quiet. There are other times where she won''t stop screaming for a long time. We have even had to put her in another room because of her screaming bothering the other kids. We explain that if you can act like a lady you can come join the rest of us. We are always consistent and our rules are always the same. I have to have faith that at some point she will get it. The problem is when she is with Dad he does not hold her accountable for her choices. We always do. We have always given her choices and explained that if you make a bad choice you have to be willing to deal with that choice. Parenting is hard, frustrating but also rewarding. I think your friend and her husband need to be on the same page. I am a firm believer we are the parents not the kids parenting us around. I also would never abandon the store because my child was throwing a tantrum. If I am somewhere and they act up they are given the choice to either cooperate or we find a place for a timeout. I''m not about to interrupt what I need to do for a tantrum. Just my two cents and does not mean I am right.

 

[Callisto]

Someone may have already posted something similar to this but they''ve done studies that a parenting style that attempts to discipline and then doesn''t follow through is significantly worse that not disciplining at all because the child learns that their parents don''t mean anything they say and it creates a terrible cycle of misbehavior. From my experience this is true at any age. My parents constantly threaten my 19 year old brother (he''s still under their financial umbrella so IMO they have every right to make rules and still have a say about the way he behaves)and NEVER follow through on the threats and he TOTALLY takes advantage of them now as a result because he knows no matter what he does they never follow through with any repercussions.

I don''t have kids but from my classes of child psych and such this was one of the most important things I took out of it.

 

[swingirl]

Yes, some young kids do beautifully in restaurants and museums. Some are easily amused with crayons and Cheerios and understand their environment. But when a child misbehaves at home you can guess they are going to be that way in public especially since most parents are less willing to discipline in public. If you have a rambunctious child you should tailor your activities so everyone around you isn''t going nuts. 2 1/2 is awfully young to learn polite restaurant manners. They are still pooping in their pants!