Home Tips on handling a "spirited child"?

[ponder]

My little one is not old enough for time out yet, but I have learned one VERY important thing about time out during the potty training stage. Make sure you time out over a hard surface like tile or linoleum.

Two of my nieces would pee intentionally during their time out. At first it was part of the tantrum and then they learned it would get them out of time out. My SIL caught on quickly. She would give them paper towels to make them "clean it up" (take responsibility for their action) and then returned them to time out until they calmed.

 

[Haven]

Really BIG threadjack:

Ponder--I always want to share this beautiful Sheila Waters piece when I see you posting. She originally created it for a friend named Ponder Henley, who is a geologist. The designs in the lettering all depict images from nature. It''s really stunning. (I''ve been wanting to buy and frame it for ages, you''ve just reminded me to get on it!)

Anyway, sorry all. Ponder on.

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

Date: 3/2/2010 12:24:47 PM
Author: TravelingGal
You''ll pass with flying colors MrsM!

OK, questions for you moms...

What do you use for a time out spot? My friend is interested in employing this technique (she told me, as I have not brought up any of this stuff yet). However putting him in a corner won''t work...unless she''s willing to put him there over and over again. She doesn''t want to use the crib because she thinks he may start to have negative feelings about the crib. She does not own a pack and play (although doesn''t want to use it for the same reason).

Any ideas? I use a Superyard that we currently have blocking off our fireplace. I used the extra panels to create a little triangle for Amelia''s time out. It is only used for her time out and she knows darn well what it is now. I don''t think my friend has room to configure a superyard, so I''m looking for other ideas.

Just outside the (open) door of whatever room we''re in when time out becomes a necessity.

I''ve never had to return her to the spot so far, she stays put. I must look like I mean business.

I''m still never going back to Ikea, though.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I have a very spirited child. I did not read all of the responses so forgive me if I am repeating something but I will just share with you what has worked with T. T has always been bossy. I knew when she was a week late I was in trouble. I don''t think she has EVER had an easy going phase. The funny thing is I think my DH and I are extremely laid-back so I am not sure how we genetically bred this little tyrant but here we are. I am also a firm believer that a child has a set personality. I have had to adjust MY parenting to HER personality. I have since surrendered which makes life MUCH easier. When I tried to bend her to my will it was a losing battle. Speaking of battles I pick mine carefully. I let her have some freedom to make mistakes, get hurt (to a degree), explore. I think that is important. For the major things, hurting herself (seriously), hurting others, or CLEARLY disobeying me, I punish. I used to spank b/c honestly it did work and I didn''t know what else to do. This was still in my "trying to control her" phase which was a frustrating phase. My Pedi actually okays spanking as long as it is not done when I am angry (where it could get out of control) and she is warned. Many of you know that a bath time incident where she spanked her Dora doll was horrifying and I realized there had to be a better way.

I used time outs behind our sofa (we have a sectional and it is placed on a diagonal so there is a large triangle of space where she was trapped. She hated those but as she got older I realized the point of time outs was to teach her to stay, listen, think about what she had done. Now I have this little red chair by my front door. She does something naughty, I warn her, count to three and if she still behaves or is doing what I told her not to she gets a two minute time out. Most of the time she sits there crying and yelling that she will do what it was that she was NOT doing in the first place. Obviously this is a sign that at 2 she totally understands WHY she was placed. Recently she has gotten more daring. She starts giggling and leaves the chair. I put her back and tell her she has to stay until mommy comes and gets her. These are annoying. A few times I have then threatened to put her in bed. A few times I have had to and I leave her there for 10 mins. THAT really works but that is only used for severe cases b/c I don''t want her to start associating sleeping as a punishment.

Having a spirited kid is tough but then again I don''t know any other kind. I comfort myself on really bad days that she will not be pushed around in life. That having a strong personality is not ALWAYS a bad thing, at least not for an adult. That she is tough, knows what she wants, a take charge little person. When I remember the good things about her it makes it easier to cope with the difficult days. Not sure if that makes sense but hopefully it will help someone who may be in the same situation. It''s my job to set appropriate boundaries and it is her job as a toddler to test them. Your friend''s son is not a lost cause. I don''t think any 2 year old is. But she does have to muster up some courage to fight the fight. Otherwise she is going to be left with a little monster and a newborn may or may not take after his older brother. Good luck to her.

 

[ChinaCat]

Tacori- You sound like a great mom. I bet you will love these difficult Tessa stories when she is older.

Question for TGal (or anyone)- You mentioned that from 6 months on when you would take Amelia out in a restaurant she knew to behave. Do you recall exactly what you did at that age to encourage/teach that? O is that age, and in a very active stage. He just doesn''t sit still. I would like to start encouraging and reinforcing good behavior but I just can''t see what I could do at this age. Or do you think it was just Amelia''s temperment at that age?

For example: He hates being in his car seat, but if I take him out he''s just busy- wanting to grab everything on the table, put everything in his mouth, jump. etc. He''s not "bad" he''s absolutely acting his age, but if there is a way to start letting him know what we expect, I would totally be into that.

The one time he had a meltdown I had DH come get him. But he''s way too little to have any idea about time-outs or consequences of his actions.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Tacori E-ring]

China, thanks. I am just doing the best I can. I make mistakes but I am trying to learn from them and be flexible. She is a tough kid but I am a tough mama so I guess it evens out. There was a time when I didn''t take T out unless I HAD to. Can''t remember the age but it was after she was walking and before she understood consequences (which was around 2). I do think things are getting easier b/c she understands punishment and bribes. I am not ashamed to say I have bribed her with fruit snacks or cookies if I have boring errands to do. She is just a kid. I do not expect her not to get bored or frustrated. So I plan for the worst and hope for the best.

 

[MonkeyPie]

Date: 3/4/2010 5:07:44 PM
Author: ChinaCat
For example: He hates being in his car seat, but if I take him out he''s just busy- wanting to grab everything on the table, put everything in his mouth, jump. etc. He''s not ''bad'' he''s absolutely acting his age, but if there is a way to start letting him know what we expect, I would totally be into that.

I think it''s a matter of knowing he will be bored - wanting to grab stuff on the table he has never seen before is because it''s interesting, and nothing else at the time is! - so bring something you know he loves and keeps his occupied. My best friends son was like this, and even though it didn''t bother me, what DID bug me was that she didn''t attempt to keep his hands off the salt and pepper shakers and such. So I would distract him by playing with him, and she would feed him while the rest of us were eating. That worked until he got big enough to understand that eating out meant staying in his seat and coloring.

 

[ChinaCat]

MP- Good point. That''s what we do now, we take turns eating and the other one "entertains" him. I was just wondering if TGal had any secret tips! It''s so hard to know when your child stops being a "baby" in which case certain behavior is acceptable, and crosses that line into annoying misbehaved child.

Sort of like TGal''s friend, it sounds like she missed that line.

 

[Mara]

I am reading this thread with interest given that our 5 week old already appears to be pretty active and spirited...definitely very vocal. We''ll see how he shapes up but I don''t think we have a mellow kiddo on our hands...I imagine he will be a handful. I was too when I was young even though I have mellowed out a lot... I guess it''s karmic retribution, in my case anyway.

Oh and TG I have a friend who has a little boy who she thinks is fabulous even though he does a lot of things that horrify many people around them (aka hitting kids in playgrounds, and throwing hard objects at the dog etc)... and really what can you say when the parent thinks their kid is awesome? I do know that I won''t be letting my kid play with her kid if that is what he will be teaching him.

 

[partgypsy]

The "if you give children expectations they will follow them" well it just aint true for some kids... For example our younger child as a baby would both not want to go to sleep (my husband would bring her to bed until fell asleep and transfer), also wake up and not want to go back to sleep. Even when we got her to go to sleep on her own by following a strict hour plus long routine, still, when she woke up, would not go back to sleep, would work herself into a crying fit that would only intensify until we picked her up. I researched, and tried the "crying it out" deal where tried to extinguish this behavior. After a week of nights of her crying 30, 40 minutes, even 1 hour nonstop (except the brief reassurances), from the lack of sleep we literally felt like we were going crazy. The times she did manage to fall asleep it would look so uncomfortable, her collapsed or partially hanging onto the crib it made me feel terrible. And we broke down, went back to me getting up with her, giving her quiet play time for an hour or so till she got sleepy, and put her back in the crib. When we told people how our experiment went, it was responses like oh that''s not supposed to happen, you must have been doing it wrong, etc. I don''t think people realize how willful some children are. Our pediatrician (who may have just been trying to reassure us) says that this type of child is difficult to handle but well-adjusted as adults. We just try to do the best we can.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/4/2010 5:54:18 PM
Author: ChinaCat
MP- Good point. That''s what we do now, we take turns eating and the other one ''entertains'' him. I was just wondering if TGal had any secret tips! It''s so hard to know when your child stops being a ''baby'' in which case certain behavior is acceptable, and crosses that line into annoying misbehaved child.

Sort of like TGal''s friend, it sounds like she missed that line.

As evidenced by this thread, all kids are different, but here''s what we did.

1. My kid loved being out and about. Back then, she also wasn''t a big screamer. So one big point in favor for taking her out.
2. In the beginning I also chose REALLY kid friendly places (noisy, supplies crayons and have lots of other kids there). I also chose very early mealtimes. If the place had TV screens, even better. She wasn''t allowed at that stage to watch TV at home, but I''m not such a nazi that I wouldn''t use it to my advantage outside the home.

3. I always faced her so she could watch the room. Usually that was entertaining enough.
4. I made the chair more comfy for her. I have an itzy ritzy chair cover I love and use all the time.
5. I attached toys on the chair cover.
6. She never seemed to be interested in what I did in #5 above so I also had a toy that attached to the table via suction cup. She liked that one. Attached toys are key at restaurants, otherwise you''d always be fetching.
7. I brought along her favorite snack, cheerios (or puffs). Cheerios on the table = several minutes of engrossing fun for Amelia while she ate them.
8. We taught her the concept of "no" early. At 7 months we did the exercise with the space heater (I''ve mentioned the story many times here so I won''t go into it again). I always brought the distractions to the restaurants and she knew no meant no, which means she doesn''t get to play with salt and pepper shakers, etc. I don''t think it''s some crazy horrible behavior or anything, but I personally prefer my kid not play with them.
9. Be reasonable about how long they can sit there. Any kid who can sit for an hour is a champ IMHO. It''s asking a lot for them to sit still, so I make sure it''s somewhere where I can get in and out quickly.
10. #9 being said, I do not let her get up out of the chair and run around while we are at the restaurant. I have never let her do so, and again, that''s personal preference. I don''t feel it''s fair to the other patrons, nor do I feel it''s safe for servers to have a toddler underfoot. For her, it''s not an option, and she knows it. Recently she has wanted to stand up in her chair (because she sees my friend''s kid do it). I give her stink eye, a firm, "SIT DOWN" and she''ll sit down.

It''s not like I can go to a restaurant and plop down my kid and just do what I want to do. I do have to keep an eyeball on her and keep her occupied. That being said, I don''t actively entertain her myself. I can go out, have her sit and color (that''s what she likes doing these days) and eat and I can have a decent conversation with whomever I''m with and also eat my food just fine.

I don''t give in at home when and once I choose to pick a battle. I win. Every time. So I pick them carefully. She knows when I pick it, she won''t win. She''ll protest now, but it doesn''t last long because it''s futile, and when she starts protesting longer, I''ll try the car technique mentioned in this thread. What works for us in the home works out of the home, so things are easier.

This is what works for my kid. It may not work for everyone''s, but it''s what I do.

 

[janinegirly]

Great list TGAL. We more or less do the same thing although we hardly every go out! (boo). One exception is I do let C out of the chair to walk about. Reasoning being we're usually out early (5pm) at kid friendly places so most patrons are in the same boat as us (except with more kids!). I think the people it actually annoys are the wait staff, but I'm usually right behind to help guide her away from anything disturbing to others.

Oh and I do agree that 1 hour in a chair is impressive. C's maxes out at about 20mins and then it's "UP UP UP UP" (with arms raised but no standing). People watching is a good distraction though and can sometimes stretch that out to 30mins.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/3/2010 4:29:08 PM
Author: Allison D.

This doesn''t surprise me at all. Why? Because Amelia has known from day one that you have expectations and that your will to prevail is sturdier than hers.

That''s a message your friend''s son hasn''t received; he''s received the opposite. ''If I carry on long enough, I will get my way.''

Unless/until your friend decides that the short-term inconvenience/pain of outlasting his tantrum will be offset by the many tantrum-free days that would follow, there''s just nothing you can do.

It''s unfortunate, because SHE is likely going to be the ultimate loser in this equation. I''d imagine she''s going to find her friends increasingly spend less and less time with her to avoid subjecting themselves to the consequences of her reluctance to parent.

I hope not, but probably will be the case if he gets worse. She and I have good communication and she is very respectful of the rules I have in my house and she tries make sure her son abides by them. But I understand it''s frustrating for her too. She just told a mutual friend of ours that she enjoys going to their house because she doesn''t have to worry about her son jumping all over their furniture since it''s not their house rule. In my house it is a rule and her son in her house gets to jump not only all over the couches, but stands on tables and jumps up and down. I do feel bad that my house is more stressful for her in that sense because she has to battle with him. It also can be that if she can find other, more "easy going" families to play with, I''ll find that she''ll spend less time with us.

But generally, our circle of friends have found her parenting style too loosey goosey. Her son climbs up on the dining room table and eats sitting on it. One time she went to another friend''s house and asked if she could feed him sitting on top of their dining room table. That friend later told me she was taken aback (because while her son gets to jump on the couch, he certainly isn''t allowed to sit on the dining room table) but couldn''t find it in her to say no because she figured the kid needed to it. So friend #1 didn''t have the sense to think that maybe people don''t want other''s people''s kids standing/sitting on dining room tables and friend #2 didn''t have the balls to lay down the rules of their house and chose to just bitch about it later.

The dangerous waters of playdates and the fun it is the navigate them.

 

[ChinaCat]

Thanks TGal, exactly what I was looking for. I think O might be a bit young yet, he doesn''t quite "understand" me or "no" or any of that, but he''s definitely on the verge. Will save for later!!!!

 

[TravelingGal]

So, hokaaaaaaaaay....

At what point would you say, "Sorry friend, I really can't hang out with you anymore."

I'm not at that point yet at all. But her son is now hitting me (once) and hit Amelia (once). She has yelled at him, but it does nothing. I don't say anything when he hits her, but of course I have said something directly to the child when he hit me and my daughter.

I think it will continue to get worse. The thing is, she's a totally cool friend. Basically easy going, totally unpretentious, and what you see is what you get. But her lack of EFFECTIVE discipline is about to make my head explode.

She actually said to be over lunch yesterday, "If he does anything, I want you to really say something to him. I mean, scare him, because he's obviously not scared of me." I know full well I can be pretty darn scary when I want to be, but I told her, "Look, I definitely will say something to him when if he continues hitting me or Amelia, trust me, no worries there. But I am not going to unleash the full-on disciplinarian mommy that Amelia sees. It's not my place with your child, and I really honestly don't think you'd appreciate it."

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

Well, my best friend''s son could give this child a run for his money, I suspect. Even DH doesn''t like this kid and DH loves kids. The boy has no discipline. When he started getting mean with Amelia, that was the end of it. Playdates ended up with DH having to entertain the boy to keep him away from me and Amelia (and stop him hurting our dog or destroying our belongings).

I have no desire to hurt my friend or alienate her, as we''ve been close since childhood, but we are very different people. She isn''t going to hear me if I say his behaviour is unacceptable (because to her, it isn''t) so no more time together with our children. I just arrange to spend time with her at her house (and leave Amelia with DH) or meet up after bedime now.

She''s pretty smart (she''s a neurosurgeon) so she''s worked it out. Neither of us wants to tackle this head-on, because there''s no good outcome available. By tacit agreement, it''s been sidestepped for the good of a 20+ year friendship and we meet up mostly in bars these days. Suits me fine!

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/15/2010 1:37:02 PM
Author: Mrs Mitchell
Well, my best friend''s son could give this child a run for his money, I suspect. Even DH doesn''t like this kid and DH loves kids. The boy has no discipline. When he started getting mean with Amelia, that was the end of it. Playdates ended up with DH having to entertain the boy to keep him away from me and Amelia (and stop him hurting our dog or destroying our belongings).

I have no desire to hurt my friend or alienate her, as we''ve been close since childhood, but we are very different people. She isn''t going to hear me if I say his behaviour is unacceptable (because to her, it isn''t) so no more time together with our children. I just arrange to spend time with her at her house (and leave Amelia with DH) or meet up after bedime now.

She''s pretty smart (she''s a neurosurgeon) so she''s worked it out. Neither of us wants to tackle this head-on, because there''s no good outcome available. By tacit agreement, it''s been sidestepped for the good of a 20+ year friendship and we meet up mostly in bars these days. Suits me fine!

Our poor Amelias are being attacked!

I wish it were so simple. It''s weird parenting politics! She''s a recent friend...about 3 years now. She''s part of a group of 10 couples, most of whom have children. Out of the group, there are probably bout 5 of us who have kids the same age and who hang out. I''m hearing from the other moms that they are having to explain to their sons that my friend''s son is a "baby" (he''s the second youngest out of the group. Amelia is currently the youngest toddler) and that''s why he get to behave the way he does. I don''t have that luxury. Amelia watches him and wants to copy. I just have to be the stern mom and simply say no.

The other moms are wondering how long they can keep it up if it becomes a problem. Their sons keep asking questions. Since we hang out as a group, it would be hard for me to just sever ties in the kiddie department like you did your friend. We also wouldn''t want her to feel left out by not including her and her son on playdates.

I''m probably making it sound like a bigger problem than it is. As I''ve said...he''s a charming boy - when he gets his way. And it''s a self inflicted wound on my part because I am still choosing to go out with them and do playdates with them. Maybe I''m the problem...I could be too strict. Who knows. It''s not like she says or does nothing when he misbehaves. She does. It''s just that her threats and stern warnings are entirely ineffective with him. This is really the first close view I''ve gotten in my life of a child who has not even a tiny healthy fear of a parent. It''s a really strange thing to watch for me.

I appreciate being allowed to vent here. This is one area where I really don''t want to vent to my friends IRL (although it is admittedly leaking out from me)...it would be too much talking behind someone''s back, which I don''t like. I''d rather do it here on the net with non-IRL people.

 

[Mara]

TG, the funny thing about kids like that is that a lot of times when they go to other people''s houses and/or are around other adults, they tend to listen a lot better to those adults than their own parents. not sure if this boy is like that though!!

one saving grace, at least she is fine with you telling him not to hit you or Amelia vs those parents who think their kids are angels AND get on your case if you say anything to them about doing anything to YOU.

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

Hmm. Much harder when you''re part of a crowd. For what it''s worth, I''d just go with the flow - meet up with more than just her and her boy and a consensus of sorts will likely form, with the other parents in the group limiting the behaviour of little Damien. At least in relation to their own children. Plus, if everyone in a group was censoring the behaviour of my child, it would make me re-think my parenting.

I suspect that if he gets X response from his mother and Y response from you in a situation, he''ll find the difference interesting. If he gets Y response from you and a whole bunch of other adults, he may see it differently. Whole village!

I don''t know about being too strict, because I possibly am too, but there are certain things I don''t let slide and it''s hard when other kids in the group get to do these things. I won''t say yes to something one day and no the next, so the decision has to stand, whatever the other kids are up to. WHen we''re with a group, I''m slightly more flexible, but the non-negotiables still stand.

 

[softly softly]

Date: 3/15/2010 2:04:52 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/15/2010 1:37:02 PM

Author: Mrs Mitchell

Well, my best friend''s son could give this child a run for his money, I suspect. Even DH doesn''t like this kid and DH loves kids. The boy has no discipline. When he started getting mean with Amelia, that was the end of it. Playdates ended up with DH having to entertain the boy to keep him away from me and Amelia (and stop him hurting our dog or destroying our belongings).


I have no desire to hurt my friend or alienate her, as we''ve been close since childhood, but we are very different people. She isn''t going to hear me if I say his behaviour is unacceptable (because to her, it isn''t) so no more time together with our children. I just arrange to spend time with her at her house (and leave Amelia with DH) or meet up after bedime now.


She''s pretty smart (she''s a neurosurgeon) so she''s worked it out. Neither of us wants to tackle this head-on, because there''s no good outcome available. By tacit agreement, it''s been sidestepped for the good of a 20+ year friendship and we meet up mostly in bars these days. Suits me fine!

Our poor Amelias are being attacked!

I wish it were so simple. It''s weird parenting politics! She''s a recent friend...about 3 years now. She''s part of a group of 10 couples, most of whom have children. Out of the group, there are probably bout 5 of us who have kids the same age and who hang out. I''m hearing from the other moms that they are having to explain to their sons that my friend''s son is a ''baby'' (he''s the second youngest out of the group. Amelia is currently the youngest toddler) and that''s why he get to behave the way he does. I don''t have that luxury. Amelia watches him and wants to copy. I just have to be the stern mom and simply say no.


The other moms are wondering how long they can keep it up if it becomes a problem. Their sons keep asking questions. Since we hang out as a group, it would be hard for me to just sever ties in the kiddie department like you did your friend. We also wouldn''t want her to feel left out by not including her and her son on playdates.


I''m probably making it sound like a bigger problem than it is. As I''ve said...he''s a charming boy - when he gets his way. And it''s a self inflicted wound on my part because I am still choosing to go out with them and do playdates with them. Maybe I''m the problem...I could be too strict. Who knows. It''s not like she says or does nothing when he misbehaves. She does. It''s just that her threats and stern warnings are entirely ineffective with him. This is really the first close view I''ve gotten in my life of a child who has not even a tiny healthy fear of a parent. It''s a really strange thing to watch for me.


I appreciate being allowed to vent here. This is one area where I really don''t want to vent to my friends IRL (although it is admittedly leaking out from me)...it would be too much talking behind someone''s back, which I don''t like. I''d rather do it here on the net with non-IRL people.

Tgal I understand how hard parenting politics can be! I had a similar situation last year with a friend I had just met. She lived around the corner from me and had kids of a similar age so we started spending a lot of time together, but gradually I noticed that my son was often in tears or that we were having to break up fights multiple times, and I also found myself increasingly reluctant to invite her into my house because her sons were so destructive. Now I don''t want to suggest that my son is blameless, but it struck me as being significant that he could happily play for hours with other kids, including his sister, without fights breaking out whereas from what I had observed these kids would end up fighting with any kids they happened to be playing with.

Also I started noticing that both of my kids were being subjected to less than desirable habits such as biting and scratching and I really didn''t want them to start responding in kind. The interesting thing is that my friend was far from lax with her discipline - quite the opposite, she was very loud and aggressive with it and I think this made it just as ineffective as if she had been like your friend. She would yell and rage at her son, but could not see that he was modelling the aggression he was getting from her. She would also roll her eyes and snicker when I would attempt to calmly intervene with my son, which I am sure all kids picked up on.

The final straw came when she was visiting and my inlaws called in to see the kids. I found out later from my FIL that when he went into my son''s room to say hello, this kid decided he wanted to head-butt him and was trying to encourage my son to do the same. FIL was less than impressed, as was I, and I decided that the stress these kids were bringing with them wasn''t worth it so I started to withdraw from the friendship. It helped that by this stage I wasn''t really enjoying the company of the either the kids or their mother. I can imagine it must be much harder with someone whose friendship you value and enjoy and with whom you have a lot of other friends in common.

I do genuinely feel bad that I found myself disliking these children, because I don''t think that toddlers and preschoolers are really responsible for their behaviour like adults, but I don''t miss the friendship.