The poor need to get better at being poor

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/29/2009 1:07:45 AM
Author: miraclesrule


Great post. You didn''t need to read the whole thing.

I highlighted the above, because although we don''t currently have the time to commit to these tasks, I believe that we will come to understand that we MUST make the time, as a society, if we expect to achieve sustainability as a species. It''s really that important.

There used to be options that worked very well.
For example growing up the lady a few doors down a stay at home mom cooked for several families and single people every day.
You could drop off what you wanted cooked or she shopped sales and offered something different every day mon thru Friday and you picked it up on the way home from work or from wherever.
The price was reasonable and she made enough money to make it worthwhile.
Then the stupid health department got wind of it.
Rather than get fined she applied for the permits.
She passed the inspection as far as food handling and prep.
But because it wasn''t classified as a commercial kitchen they told her she had to upgrade or close down.
To upgrade to stainless everything, commercial freezers and ovens would have cost more than she made in a year from it.
Today you can not afford to legally provide this service because of laws passed to protect restaurants who bought and paid for the laws.

 

[miraclesrule]

That sucks Strm...
Another reason to be a renigade.

I used to love forward to the guy who came through our condo complex once a week selling us homemade tamales for $5 a baggie full. When he stopped coming around, I feel into a withdrawal. His wife made the best stuff ever.

I suppose these days one would have to have a new type of "dinner party" in order to evade some random cop mentality enforcement health department officer from failing to make the right decisions. But hey, the government makes the rules right? Actually not so true. Those shaky ordinances are so easily evaded with some backbone and common sense, but most people don''t have the fight in them to stand up to the bureaucratic buffoons.

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 1/29/2009 12:31:46 AM
Author: AGBF

Date: 1/29/2009 12:24:13 AM

Author: LaraOnline

Interesting response, and, again, I think this shows something of a cultural difference between the US and Australia. I have heard elsewhere of people having to keep more than one job to keep afloat in the US. It is usually used in a conversation as an example of how tough living in the US can be. Again, I feel certain that most Australians would feel that working 40 hours a week is at the upper limit of expectation... and that if that 36-hour or whatever wage is not paying enough to survive - well, time to go to the welfare office!

How civilized! Like being able to get medical care if you are sick, which I have heard is possible in some parts of the world, even if you don''t have insurance!!!

Deborah

Yes, it''s true... there are cracks starting to show in the public health system here... for example, old people needing hip/knee replacements might spend even a year waiting for an operating space (I hear)... because it''s not immediately life-threatening - hey, it''s optional and no doubt extremely expensive surgery - the waiting list is looong.

But in GENERAL the public health system is still very good. I have had children in both the public and private hospitals, and found the medical attention in the public system second to none, the midwives were more active in the public system... in the private system, the accommodation was better, but the midwifery was a little ... hands off. Perhaps the nurses there are more geared to the older patients?

The huge - and ever-increasing- expense of the public system means that the government is doing what it can to entice peole over the private system, such as increasing medical taxes on people over a certain income threshhold.

But the unpalatable fact is that if you use your private insurance, your health care costs much, much more. And then there''s the niggle factor of all the extra bill-paying and paperwork!!

 

[Rhea]

Food is one of the issues in this thread. Yes, you can get less expensive food from national super market chains. However, a lot time, as least in the UK, the larger super market chains bully the farmers to get fresh food cheaper. My DH, whose family owns a farm, shut it''s doors recently. Tesco and other large supermarkets were pushing the prices down so low that it made more sense to close the farm. When that happens suppliers have to go overseas, where food growing is perhaps less regulated or more harmful pesticides are used, to get what they need. I''m sure some people do need to learn to buy groceries more cheaply, but sometimes that comes at a cost to other families. We''ve put ourselves in a horrendous situation in regards to food, what we can afford, and where we have to import it from.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 1/29/2009 1:22:18 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 1/29/2009 1:07:45 AM

Author: miraclesrule



Great post. You didn''t need to read the whole thing.

I highlighted the above, because although we don''t currently have the time to commit to these tasks, I believe that we will come to understand that we MUST make the time, as a society, if we expect to achieve sustainability as a species. It''s really that important.

There used to be options that worked very well.

For example growing up the lady a few doors down a stay at home mom cooked for several families and single people every day.

You could drop off what you wanted cooked or she shopped sales and offered something different every day mon thru Friday and you picked it up on the way home from work or from wherever.

The price was reasonable and she made enough money to make it worthwhile.

My mom use to do this!

 

[AllieGator]

As a college student, I''m good at being poor. When that woman spends $30 on dinner every night...I feed myself on that much for a week. I''m not a great cook or anything like that, but I can make rice and beans, pasta, etc. You do have to sacrifice...I don''t eat much meat, I don''t go out to eat much. I think the main problem with these people is...they don''t want to change their lifestyles. They could get by much easier, if they just learned that being in a tough economic time means that you have to change your lifestyle. I''m very sympathetic to those living in poverty, but I can''t bring myself to feel sorry for these people when they refuse to adapt.

 

[MaggieB]

Is it just me, or does anyone else see something unseemly in a bunch of women showing off their diamonds critiquing the poor?

I get it - everyone can give their example of how they worked so much harder and rose above it all. I did too. But NO one has achieved any great pinnacle of either wealth or poverty without some element of luck involved.

I grew up in Pine Hills, Florida. If you watch Central Florida news and have seen a murder recently, odds are it took place in Pine Hills. My best friend growing up lived in a house with her bedridden mother, bedridden father, and bedridden grandmother. Her mother got MS when my best friend was 8, her father had four heart attacks within the next four years until he too became completely disabled. Ann took care of all of them from age 12 on, until they all died by the time she was in her early twenties. College? Give me a break. I can tell you a hundred stories from my neighborhood about why the poor were poor.

My husband went to a private school that cost more than most colleges - John Burroughs in St. Louis. Jon Hamm from Mad Men was a drama teacher there. Then he and all of his friends went to the top colleges in the nation, continued on to get their MBAs without having to get a job, and came back and got jobs with the companies that their dads owned.

My husband is brilliant, extremely hard working, basically an all-around great guy. He''s also damn lucky.

I''m just sick of the whole us vs. them attitude. There are a whole lot of people right now finding out just how easy it is to become poor. If you are one of the thousands upon thousands of people that can''t find a job, can''t make your mortgage payment, and can''t sell your house for what you owe, then you are about to find out that poverty happens to people with even the best laid plans.

I don''t think it would kill the rest of us to show some compassion.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/29/2009 9:51:38 AM
Author: MaggieB

Is it just me, or does anyone else see something unseemly in a bunch of women showing off their diamonds critiquing the poor?

Maggie, I have never bothered to learn how to put icons other than the standard ones at the bottom of every page into a posting, but today I wish I had a heart icon.


Deborah

 

[MaggieB]

Date: 1/29/2009 10:02:42 AM
Author: AGBF

Date: 1/29/2009 9:51:38 AM
Author: MaggieB

Is it just me, or does anyone else see something unseemly in a bunch of women showing off their diamonds critiquing the poor?

Maggie, I have never bothered to learn how to put icons other than the standard ones at the bottom of every page into a posting, but today I wish I had a heart icon.


Deborah

Thank you Deborah. That means a lot to me coming from you.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

All the talk of roast chicken yesterday gave me a major craving. So I went to the store and bought 1 4lb roaster, 4 good-sized Yukon gold potatoes, and a bag of steam-fresh green beans for $10.50. I had flour and yeast at home which I could have used for bread had I really wanted to. After we had dinner (2 of us), I picked the carcass clean and made stock to freeze and for soup later this week. I plan to make chicken sheppard pie with the extra meat, veg, potatoes, and gravy. I plan to toss some frozen tortellini in the stock for a simple soup.

I have to admit that some of the stuff used for the meal (garlic, spices, etc) I had on hand at home. But the meal would have been possible without it. So....3 meals out of $10.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 1/29/2009 10:02:42 AM
Author: AGBF

Date: 1/29/2009 9:51:38 AM

Author: MaggieB

Is it just me, or does anyone else see something unseemly in a bunch of women showing off their diamonds critiquing the poor?

Maggie, I have never bothered to learn how to put icons other than the standard ones at the bottom of every page into a posting, but today I wish I had a heart icon.

Deborah

Ditto! This is really just spot on, Maggie. It seems that the vast majority of us posting here have never had to deal with anything even close to poverty, and the few that have are being answered with "They just have to try harder! They made poor life choices!" Give me a break.

For example, I used to work 3 jobs, so I know what it''s like to work hard. I did it because I like to work and I like having money to blow...but I didn''t necessarily need all 3 jobs to get by.

And the bottom line is, if I couldn''t pay a bill, I could always call my mom and dad. Even now, if I was broke, I have a fiance who makes good money who will pay my bills. And honestly, I could still call my parents for money if I really needed it.

So yeah, I''ll keep my helpful hints to the poor to myself!

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 1/27/2009 5:48:28 PM
Author: decodelighted
Where I disagree a bit is I think its the ''newly poor/former middle class'' that''s having the hardest time. The folks who never learned the survival skills. Who never *dreamed* of having to learn them. Who probably, at some point, laughed long & hard -or worse- PITIED folks who did.

The layoffs are terrible. My heart goes out to all the families who are struggling right now, regardless of how they ended up in the middle of the struggle.

I understand Maggie B''s point ... about women on a diamond forum criticizing "the poor" ... but I guess I''m kinda counting myself into "the newly poor" (to some degree) & figured a lot of folks around here were doing the same.

MOST Americans right now are having to cut back dramatically & wishing they had skills they don''t. Wishing they already knew the shortcuts & recipes & regiments that make coping achievable. The sacrifices are all relative. For someone used to having everything -- losing 1/2 of it is surely a catastrophe to THEM. Where another person, used to much less, would *kill* for the current lifestyle of the former richie. There''s enough compassion to go around, right?

 

[MaggieB]

I''m not putting myself out as the "one" who can judge the others. My whole point was that NO one can. I am just as offended by the characterization of the rich as a bunch of heartless, lazy jerks that didn''t earn it, don''t deserve it, etc.

I just think it''s insulting to have a conversation about what people who live at poverty level should be eating. Everyone that I''ve known personally that moved from poverty to middle-class did through the ownership of capital. When I was in the mortgage business, before I got laid off, the median home price in Central Florida was right around $248,000. The median income in Orlando at the same time was below what you needed to qualify. The people I did mortgages for that scrimped and saved and bought houses with their brothers, sisters, parents, whatever, so that they could buy a drastically overpriced home, the price of which was driven up by investors that have now dumped all of them - guess what . . . now they are living in blighted neighborhoods full of abandoned houses and they can''t get out. And they owe $100,000 more than their house is worth.

I don''t have any problem whatsoever talking about means of saving money, I just don''t think we should talk about it in the context of advising the poor.

 

[MaggieB]

Deco - agreed. There is more than enough compassion to go around.

Thing - please don''t keep your opinions to yourself. I learn from your opinions, just like I learn from everyone else''s.

 

[omieluv]

Date: 1/29/2009 11:57:34 AM
Author: MaggieB
I don''t have any problem whatsoever talking about means of saving money, I just don''t think we should talk about it in the context of advising the poor.

I actually agree with this.

What is "poor," anyway? Is it the power couple earning well over $100K, but have credit card debt up to their eyeballs? Or are we speaking about people well below the poverty line who do work 2 crappy jobs, do not own cable, cars or clothes to speak of, and still can barely make ends meet? Personally, I think poor applies to both, but circumstances are quite different for each.

I know I mentioned the "old days" in my post. By that I was not implying that we need to live like they did back then, as that would be nearly impossible today. Times are different, as there is not nearly as much time to devote to cooking meals from scratch or hand washing our clothes. However, I think that people from that generation definitely can serve as an inspiration.

We just do not seem to have much time on our hands these days...time is turning into a luxury these days. It is almost like our free time is reverting to what it was before the Industrial Age.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 1/29/2009 12:16:52 PM
Author: omieluv

Date: 1/29/2009 11:57:34 AM
Author: MaggieB
I don''t have any problem whatsoever talking about means of saving money, I just don''t think we should talk about it in the context of advising the poor.

I actually agree with this.

I agree too, for the most part -- I think *intent* is important too. If the intent of a post comes across as scolding or taunting or know-it-all ... its uncomfortable. I chose to take the post topic in a kind of humorous sense. The Ur Doin It Rong lol cat kind of way. My mistake?

 

[MaggieB]

Date: 1/29/2009 12:24:12 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 1/29/2009 12:16:52 PM
Author: omieluv

Date: 1/29/2009 11:57:34 AM
Author: MaggieB
I don''t have any problem whatsoever talking about means of saving money, I just don''t think we should talk about it in the context of advising the poor.

I actually agree with this.

I agree too, for the most part -- I think *intent* is important too. If the intent of a post comes across as scolding or taunting or know-it-all ... its uncomfortable. I chose to take the post topic in a kind of humorous sense. The Ur Doin It Rong lol cat kind of way. My mistake?

Deco - I didn''t respond to a specific post in an attempt to not make any PS-ers feel targeted. Instead, I seem to have made everyone feel targeted. I''m not really sure if you are referring to me above as "scolding, taunting, or know-it-all" or if you think this is what I am saying about everyone else. In either case, I apologize.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 1/29/2009 9:51:38 AM
Author: MaggieB
Is it just me, or does anyone else see something unseemly in a bunch of women showing off their diamonds critiquing the poor?

I get it - everyone can give their example of how they worked so much harder and rose above it all. I did too. But NO one has achieved any great pinnacle of either wealth or poverty without some element of luck involved.

I grew up in Pine Hills, Florida. If you watch Central Florida news and have seen a murder recently, odds are it took place in Pine Hills. My best friend growing up lived in a house with her bedridden mother, bedridden father, and bedridden grandmother. Her mother got MS when my best friend was 8, her father had four heart attacks within the next four years until he too became completely disabled. Ann took care of all of them from age 12 on, until they all died by the time she was in her early twenties. College? Give me a break. I can tell you a hundred stories from my neighborhood about why the poor were poor.

My husband went to a private school that cost more than most colleges - John Burroughs in St. Louis. Jon Hamm from Mad Men was a drama teacher there. Then he and all of his friends went to the top colleges in the nation, continued on to get their MBAs without having to get a job, and came back and got jobs with the companies that their dads owned.

My husband is brilliant, extremely hard working, basically an all-around great guy. He''s also damn lucky.

I''m just sick of the whole us vs. them attitude. There are a whole lot of people right now finding out just how easy it is to become poor. If you are one of the thousands upon thousands of people that can''t find a job, can''t make your mortgage payment, and can''t sell your house for what you owe, then you are about to find out that poverty happens to people with even the best laid plans.

I don''t think it would kill the rest of us to show some compassion.

The reason that I started this post is because I couldn''t believe it when I saw a family begging for a financial bailout on Dr. Phil, saying they couldn''t make their mortgage payments, yet they were eating in restaurants to the tune of $30 a night every night. Both parents worked one job, the father''s job being a business that he owned that was losing money, but he refused to get a second job or give up his business because it was his "dream." The reason that I said that these people need to get better at being poor, is because they were living a middle class lifestyle, but crying about not being able to pay their bills because they could not budget wisely.

I, for one, don''t feel guilty about having money. My family and I worked very hard for everything that we have. I don''t think that people with money need to apologize for it, especially if they earmed it.

My family lived in extreme poverty in Eastern Europe before immigrating to the US. Not the "poverty" of the spoiled family above, but real poverty, as in my father was malnourished as a child because they were farmers, and if their crops failed, there was no food. As in the house my father grew up in didn''t have electricity or running water - they cooked over an open fire and went to the bathroom in outhouses. Poverty as in the only time he ever ate meat was if he could catch a fish, or Xmas or Easter. My father didn''t own shoes until he moved to the US at the age of 13. When he immigrated with his parents, none of them spoke any English, and my grandparents each had a 6th grade education. That is true poverty. Not "I only own two pairs of shoes, and I eat Subway sandwiches for dinner every night, poor me."

His parents worked jobs like longshoreman, coatcheck, and maid to support him in their studio apt. in Hell''s Kitchen, NYC when they immigrated. My father shined shoes before and after school until he was old enough to bus tables & to put himself through college. Not only was he combatting poverty in one of the worst inner-city areas in the country, he was also struggling to make something of himself in a country where he didn''t even know the language. My granparents nearly killed themselves to send him to college, because they knew that education and hard work would be the only thing to life their Eastern European peasant family out of poverty.

Through years of blue-collar hard work, my grandparents lived simply and retired happily - they never owned a car, or cell phones. My father went on to graduate college and become a successful businessman and real estate investor. Did he like his Wall Street job? No, it wasn''t his "dream work," but it provided him & his family with the lifestyle and educational opportunities that he wished he had had himself as a child.

I have real sympathy for people who are genuinely impoverished, like the people in Haiti, not people who claim to be poor like the ones I described in my original post who don''t want to work harder to sustain their lifestyles or learn how to budget. The point of my post was that I don''t feel sorry for people who have created crappy situations for themselves and refuse to adjust their lifestyles to a simpler way of living.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 1/29/2009 12:36:34 PM
Author: MaggieB
Deco - I didn''t respond to a specific post in an attempt to not make any PS-ers feel targeted. Instead, I seem to have made everyone feel targeted. I''m not really sure if you are referring to me above as ''scolding, taunting, or know-it-all'' or if you think this is what I am saying about everyone else. In either case, I apologize.

Oh noes! The written word is so tricky sometimes. I was trying to say that after the thread got rolling some of the comments started sounding "scolding" toward "poor people" and that I understand why you''d have a bad reaction to that. The way the thread *started out* -- at least in *my* mind was a kind of communal recognition of how different this "depression" is from previous depressions -- in that we high-tech folks just don''t have the skills to survive downturns. What I realized is that perhaps *I* misinterpreted the intent of the thread from the beginning (thus, made a mistake) and that it was scolding from the *beginning*. If that''s the case then I''m sorry I participated in it at all. No offense meant to you, MaggieB! Your points are valid & have made me reconsider my own original reaction.

 

[omieluv]

Date: 1/29/2009 12:44:12 PM
Author: vespergirl

The reason that I started this post is because I couldn't believe it when I saw a family begging for a financial bailout on Dr. Phil, saying they couldn't make their mortgage payments, yet they were eating in restaurants to the tune of $30 a night every night. Both parents worked one job, the father's job being a business that he owned that was losing money, but he refused to get a second job or give up his business because it was his 'dream.' The reason that I said that these people need to get better at being poor, is because they were living a middle class lifestyle, but crying about not being able to pay their bills because they could not budget wisely.

I see your point. Many of my comments were focused on individuals earning a decent living (well above the poverty line) and not being realistic about their financial state.

 

[JSM]

I agree with Vespergirl, her point about this particular family. Remember the old adage "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should"? In many cases nowadays, just because you used to, doesn't mean you can now.

I don't earn much above the US poverty line but I have NEVER considered myself poor, or close to it. I have a roof over my head, food in my belly, a phone to call friends and family, and a diamond ring on my finger.

Maybe the new 'poor' aren't so much poor as are having a hard time adjusting to their new lifestyle of the true middle class. I can understand that. Sometimes it is extremely difficult to come to terms with your new circumstances, and I can sympathize.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 1/29/2009 12:08:36 PM
Author: MaggieB

Thing - please don''t keep your opinions to yourself. I learn from your opinions, just like I learn from everyone else''s.

Oh don''t worry, Maggie-I don''t think I can keep myself from sharing most of my opinions!

I just meant that in this particular thread I felt I should refrain from giving helpful hints to the theoretical poor people who aren''t ever going to read this thread. You know, since I''ve never even come close to experiencing poverty!

I am thinking about ways to be frugal, though, which I think was the original intent of this thread.

 

[partgypsy]

The bottom line is time is money, money is time. As someone else pointed out, you can''t have it both ways; can''t critique the poor for both not working two jobs at the same time AND not making bread, all meals from scratch at the same time. Sometimes it can work if for example it is a poor couple and one spouse does home cooked meals and the other works, but you got to sleep too?
Two time in my life where I didn''t have much money.
In college I ate very healthy and very inexpensively, made my own bread, soup, etc. It worked because A) even though I was enrolled full time it was flexible hours b) was in a small town so my bike was all I needed c) had roomates, and d) was healthy.
When I moved to Chicago I was actually better off in that I had a full time job (plus 50 minute commute each way).
Again no car, but it was more difficult to eat healthy. Initially I lived downtown (south loop) where while there were a few convenience stores and fast food joints there were essentially no grocery stores. I would have to take the train and a bus each way and walk up our 5 flights of stairs (no elevator) to our flat carrying groceries. When you don''t have much money simply stated you have less options. You can''t drive to the grocery store that has great coupons or sales, or go to multiple stores to get the best bargain. You don''t have time to make home-cooked food every meal because you are getting home at 7 at night and are starving, and have to get up early the following day. Yes you can be creative, and you can suck it up so you can move in a better position (as long as you keep your good health, get some breaks, don''t have children, etc) but I do feel like some of these comments are made by people who have not lived in these situation.

Dispite all that I agree with the general consensus that I am always amazed at people who think they need (cell phones, cable, newish car) who then complain about cash. Personally those I hear that from are not the poor but simply those who are working but have poor budgeting skills. The working poor I know are usually working too hard (with none of those stated comforts including a safe place to live) to be having those kind of conversations.

 

[MoonWater]

yeah, what part gypsy said!

 

[WishfulThinking]

I take no particular issue with vespergirl's original post and the more general point of this thread, but at least from what I could bring myself to read people seem to be collapsing the differences between peoples' various situations and settling on "The Poor" as a category which can be discussed and critiqued in various ways.

There is a HUGE difference between the family on Dr. Phil and other people who can be rightly classified as "poor." I don't know anyone who considers his or her self or family to be "poor," but I know a lot of people who have a very difficult time making ends meet for one reason or another and none of them hang out with their cellphones and eat at fancy restaurants every day of the week. There are a lot of people with shitty budgeting skills and unrealistic expectations, and there are a lot of other people who legitimately do not make enough money to support themselves and their families.

The way people treat this issue is SO incredibly absurd. Sorry to single out individual comments, but we've now heard everything from "poor people shouldn't have phones" [praytell, how will you get a job if you have no contact information?] to some rendition of the old "my family/someone I know pulled themselves up from their bootstraps, so the American Dream is alive and well if people just work hard enough. Yeah right. You want to tell that to my parents? Really? Because you know everything about them, and their life and circumstances and options? Yeah, no thanks. It's really not as simple as being able to just find a way to make ends meet when the cost of living is high and there is really no living wage for a lot of people. You know someone who "made it" against the odds? Well I'll respond with my own [technically meaningless, since it's a silly way to debate] anecdotes about people I know who work THREE JOBS and still cannot cover their rent and a car living in a rural area where there is no public transit and you have to drive 25 minutes to the nearest grocery store [but not to the nearest restaurant, curiously]. Cutting corners is difficult when the only corners you have left to cut are your heat and electricity [in the dead of winter this is barely an option] and how many meals a day you eat. Think about it.

ETA: gypsy's post was excellent.

 

[luckystar112]

Date: 1/29/2009 3:11:32 PM
Author: WishfulThinking


The way people treat this issue is SO incredibly absurd. Sorry to single out individual comments, but we''ve now heard everything from ''poor people shouldn''t have phones'' [praytell, how will you get a job if you have no contact information?]

Not what I said. Please read again. I said "cell phone" in my original post, and was referring to cell phones all along. I understand that some other people were confused as well, but I clarified.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 1/29/2009 3:11:32 PM
Author: WishfulThinking
I take no particular issue with vespergirl''s original post and the more general point of this thread, but at least from what I could bring myself to read people seem to be collapsing the differences between peoples'' various situations and settling on ''The Poor'' as a category which can be discussed and critiqued in various ways.

There is a HUGE difference between the family on Dr. Phil and other people who can be rightly classified as ''poor.'' I don''t know anyone who considers his or her self or family to be ''poor,'' but I know a lot of people who have a very difficult time making ends meet for one reason or another and none of them hang out with their cellphones and eat at fancy restaurants every day of the week. There are a lot of people with shitty budgeting skills and unrealistic expectations, and there are a lot of other people who legitimately do not make enough money to support themselves and their families.

The way people treat this issue is SO incredibly absurd. Sorry to single out individual comments, but we''ve now heard everything from ''poor people shouldn''t have phones'' [praytell, how will you get a job if you have no contact information?] to some rendition of the old ''my family/someone I know pulled themselves up from their bootstraps, so the American Dream is alive and well if people just work hard enough. Yeah right. You want to tell that to my parents? Really? Because you know everything about them, and their life and circumstances and options? Yeah, no thanks. It''s really not as simple as being able to just find a way to make ends meet when the cost of living is high and there is really no living wage for a lot of people. You know someone who ''made it'' against the odds? Well I''ll respond with my own [technically meaningless, since it''s a silly way to debate] anecdotes about people I know who work THREE JOBS and still cannot cover their rent and a car living in a rural area where there is no public transit and you have to drive 25 minutes to the nearest grocery store [but not to the nearest restaurant, curiously]. Cutting corners is difficult when the only corners you have left to cut are your heat and electricity [in the dead of winter this is barely an option] and how many meals a day you eat. Think about it.

ETA: gypsy''s post was excellent.

Why stay in an economically depressed rural area if there are no jobs there? I see immigrants come from as far away as Asia and Africa with next to nothing in their pocket, and thrive. Instead of staying in an area where there are no jobs, they move to the US, where there are jobs. If someone can manage to get from Korea to the US, I think that people in Appalachia can manage to find their way to a less economically depressed area of the US.

And if there are truly no jobs in the US, that why are so many Mexicans coming here for work? There is work, it''s just not work that most Americans want to do. Sure, it stinks that over-paid union jobs are disappearing (e.g. auto workers) but there is far more work to be found in the service and agricultural fields.

For the past two years, fruit farmers in CA have been complaining that their fruit is rotting on the trees, because due to tighter border restrictions, their regular crop workers who come over from Mexico have not been able to cross the border for work. The farmers advertised widely that they needed help picking the crops, but big surprise, they didn''t have thousands of unemployed Americans rushing over for the work. Millions of dollars in produce went to waste, because without the Mexican crop pickers, they couldn''t find Americans willing to do that type of work. I guess it''s easier to sit around and collect an unemployment check.

 

[luckystar112]

Have you tried living in California lately?

Seriously, I''m an HGTV lover and I was watching "property virgins" the other day.....this couple was looking for a house outside of L.A. One of the ones they looked at was 400,000 for a 1 bedroom 1 bath!!!!! And it looked like a shack. Couldn''t believe it.
Maybe it was just in a weird area? But coming from someone who has never been to California and is only going by what I see on TV, I have no idea how poor people can afford to live in California. Anyone care to explain if they don''t mind getting too off topic?

 

[WishfulThinking]

Date: 1/29/2009 5:00:33 PM
Author: luckystar112

Date: 1/29/2009 3:11:32 PM

Author: WishfulThinking




The way people treat this issue is SO incredibly absurd. Sorry to single out individual comments, but we''ve now heard everything from ''poor people shouldn''t have phones'' [praytell, how will you get a job if you have no contact information?]

Not what I said. Please read again. I said ''cell phone'' in my original post, and was referring to cell phones all along. I understand that some other people were confused as well, but I clarified.

I did read the thread.
You said "phone" in many places, and although you did clarify your point later, your assertion that having a cell phone is a luxury is not necessarily true. As other people pointed out, some people are required to have cell phones and don''t get reimbursed. My dad is one of them. He never has been and I''m sure never will be reimbursed for the cost of his phone.

 

[luckystar112]

Date: 1/29/2009 7:39:42 PM
Author: WishfulThinking

Date: 1/29/2009 5:00:33 PM
Author: luckystar112

Date: 1/29/2009 3:11:32 PM

Author: WishfulThinking




The way people treat this issue is SO incredibly absurd. Sorry to single out individual comments, but we've now heard everything from 'poor people shouldn't have phones' [praytell, how will you get a job if you have no contact information?]

Not what I said. Please read again. I said 'cell phone' in my original post, and was referring to cell phones all along. I understand that some other people were confused as well, but I clarified.

I did read the thread.
You said 'phone' in many places, and although you did clarify your point later, your assertion that having a cell phone is a luxury is not necessarily true. As other people pointed out, some people are required to have cell phones and don't get reimbursed. My dad is one of them. He never has been and I'm sure never will be reimbursed for the cost of his phone.

Yes, but I was going off your comment about the phones, in which you said, "praytell, how will you get a job if you have no contact information". Of which I had already stated a landline is more often than not more than necessary. As in everything we debate on here, there is an exception to the rule. Your father sounds like one of them, although some of the other exceptions given I do not equate with a poverty situation.