The colours in OEC's - what makes them all different?

[HopeSpringsEternal]

Hi everyone,

I am contemplating an upgrade and have been doing research on and off for several years.

I've come to the conclusion that I'd like an OEC, I remember the first time I saw one shining all the colours (on Pricescope of course) and was just mesmerised and that feeling has not gone away. So, having said that I have looked at an awful lot online but only seen a couple in person for a limited time and wondered if anyone can tell me about what causes one stone to pull more colours than another.

I live in the UK and visit California once a year so only really have that one opportunity once a year in which to upgrade as I don't want to deal with shipping and taxes. I am in no rush but trying to work out the things I need to know and be aware of for when I am ready to buy a stone/ring as this will likely be my only chance to get it perfect and the colour pull is my primary eason for wanting and OEC. Half the fun is in the research, the dreaming and thinking for me too so I am happy to wait to get something perfect.

So, I was looking at the following beautiful stones at JbG, all amazing, similarish size, colour and clarity but some seem to pull more colours than other. Is it the faceting and the way the stone was cut in these cases, or was it just the lighting, photography, maybe the surroundings and what the wearer was wearing, so more external factors?

Hope you don't mind me posting the links but there are multiple videos and photos of each of the stones here:

1) Love this stone, but it seems to reflect less colours than the others?
https://jewelsbygrace.smugmug.com/V...-Old-European-Cut-Diamond-Art-Deco-Solitaire/

2) Super colourful and beautiful:
https://jewelsbygrace.smugmug.com/Vintage-and-Antique-Rings/248ct-Old-European-Cut-Diamond-Ring/

3) This is a transitional but has amazing colour play in the videos (not so much in the pictures at all):
https://jewelsbygrace.smugmug.com/Loose-Diamonds/201-and-larger/233ct-Old-European-Cut-Diamond/

Any thoughts or pointers, especially from those who have colourful OEC's or have seen lots and how they play with light most welcome.

 

[Karl_K]

Lighting and obstruction and how the pavilion angle responds to being obstructed explains it.
#3 in a lot of the pictures is obstructed, its returning light from the camera which is dark.
In the last few pictures it is not obstructed as much.
How much a diamond shows obstruction is determined by the pavilion angle and the distance and the lighting of what is in front of it.
Pictures often over obstruct a diamond compared to the real world but actually seeing it is the real test.
Many oec diamonds do have issues with obstruction.

 

[Austina]

It’s a shame you can’t visit @Old World Diamonds in NY. They have an amazing range of OECs, and it really is a case of seeing them in person.

I’m also in the UK, and visited a specialist in Hatton Garden. I was totally underwhelmed by what I saw there. I even thought that I probably didn’t want an OEC after my visit. Once I saw what OWD had, I was totally convinced though.

 

[Queenie60]

Caysie Van Bebber is in California and has resources for OEC's - and she has a great eye for them! Just a thought. She could be your "middle man" with Adam at OWD as they often do business together.

 

[LLJsmom]

I don’t like the first one. I noticed that the facets under the table are not that symmetrical and don’t have a nice consistent pattern, neither checkerboard or flower. They don’t seem to light up much. Definitely not as lively.
I like the second one the best. There is very nice symmetry in the flower petal pattern under the table and I see flashes all around the diamond, edge to edge. I would need to spend a lot more time to see where it doesn’t light up as much but at first glance I would definitely consider this a strong contender. It’s an I so it will look white in probably 95% of the environments you are in. I have a K OEC and I think it looks white in 80% of the environments I am in.
The last one, the tranny, is quite beautiful as well. I would want to see videos of it in darker rooms and lower lighting and you have to think about whether you want that faceting. It just has a different flavor in its patterning. I would want more videos that shows its fire.

I think over time I have found I find most color and fire when stones are cut more symmetrically. It’s not a guarantee because I have seen pictures of stone that have a beautiful floral pattern but are duds IRL. I am sorry I cannot explain why. But having videos and prevent that from happening. And sometimes something that does not have a lovely floral pattern can be a fireball IRL. Sorry, can’t explain that either. But if I was looking for an OEC now, I would ask Grace to send me the second stone, 2.68 I. I personally really like that stone. It speaks to me. Then I would try it and make sure it is as beautiful in my world. I don’t prefer that setting but can live with it temporarily. I would reset it with less sizable diamonds on the shoulders.

 

[TreeScientist]

Agreed with @LLJsmom on all counts. #2 is definitely the best cut of the three and looks beautiful in the videos. And as she said, OECs that have a good symmetry and faceting pattern tend to have the best play of light, but that's not always the case. A lot also has to do with crown/pavilions angles, just like in MRBs, but unfortunately GIA dropped the ball (IMO) in not providing this info for OECs or transitional cuts (circular brilliants).

If you want to get an idea for what geometric configurations work the best for OECs, take a look at the AGS Gold reports for AVRs (August Vintage Rounds) or CERs (Canera European Rounds). That should at least give you a ballpark for what angles work best.

But seeing as most antique (not modern repo) OECs come with GIA reports, you really need to see each diamond IRL to determine how it will perform. That, or buy from someone like Grace who will take 100 videos in every different kind of lighting so you can get a good idea of the performance prior to ordering. Never trust a still photo for an OEC.

 

[HopeSpringsEternal]

Thanks for the replies everyone, it's really so helpful.

@Karl_K , thanks for that explanation. So, I think I get that diamond 3 doesn't look very impressive in most of the pictures and a bit dark because objects are reflected back by the pavilion angle, in this case a dark camera. I suppose in life it would depend on what was near it and that is why in some of the pictures it looks really beautiful and some not. You would really need to test it out in real life. I get that and really useful to know.

@Austina, I'd love to visit OWD, I have a 2 year old and a 4 year old and am pregnant with my 3rd so sadly can't see it happening any time soon. I'm going to have a mooch around Hatton Garden on my birthday morning next month but don't have any high hopes of seeing anything decent. I don't trust to buy from there but would be good to see some more OEC's in person if I can. My jeweller bought one in for me to look at and it was lovely but the first I saw so had nothing to compare it to. I want to make sure I see as many as possible to get a good flavour for how differently they perform and what I really want in a stone.

@Queenie60, I love CvB, it could be an option to work with her but I visit LA so she is too far away to visit. I'm not sure how comfortable I am with having things posted to a hotel and not sure how I could make it work without years gaps between getting a diamond, seeing it in real life and then having it set. I've thought about it before but need to give it more consideration. I've actually been to meet Grace before to pick up jewellery so I'm more inclined to go through her as I can see several stones in person and walk away with the jewellery in my hand rather than worry about the post.

@LLJsmom, wonderful reply and just what I needed to hear, thank you. I absolutely love the setting of the first one and that has taken me in a bit to be honest, I needed to be brought back as I did see that it isn't as lively as the others but couldn't work out why. Your comments about symmetry of the pattern and flashes to the edge were not things I was aware of looking for specifically so that is a really useful criteria to go by. I adore the second stone but hate the setting. It's more than I wanted to spend so I don't think I can live with the setting while I wait to have it reset. I hope Grace still has it when I visit later in the year as I would certainly would love to see it in real life. Maybe I'd change my mind about the setting! I have to see her anyway so plan to ask her if I can view quite a few different stones so I can start to get a flavour for them. The trannie is beautiful but I know I don't want those, I have fallen in love with the flowery, small table, large cutlet OEC's (at least I do know something about what I want).

@TreeScientist I will definitely have a look at the AGS Gold reports and I will have a really good look at the performance of AVR's and CER's, I've given them a little attention but because I knew I wanted an old stone I didn't pay them that much mind, obviously they can be good to learn from though.

I think what I'm getting here (which I have seen said before) is that you can select what you think will be a good looking stone by paying careful attention to the facet pattern, symmetry, proportions of the stone as far as we can tell and how it looks on camera/video but you really need to see it in real life in different lighting situations to be sure if it is for you. I suppose that's the appeal and beauty of old cuts, each one is different.

Lots more research and patience for me I think! Thanks everyone.

 

[EvaEvans]

The classical OEC is deep! Only the first diamond is a classical OEC and is the only one that I like!
I would recommend to avoid swallow diamonds with depth under 63% and such are the 2nd and the 3rd diamond that you consider...

 

[HopeSpringsEternal]

Hmm, I did notice that the first stone was deep, that's really interesting @EvaEvans, what is it about the first stone you like much better and how does the depth affect the light play do you think? Just trying to work out how the depth affects the stones performance. Despite having looked at a lot of OEC's online and read up a lot I am still obviously quite clueless!

 

[EvaEvans]

Hmm, I did notice that the first stone was deep, that's really interesting @EvaEvans, what is it about the first stone you like much better and how does the depth affect the light play do you think? Just trying to work out how the depth affects the stones performance. Despite having looked at a lot of OEC's online and read up a lot I am still obviously quite clueless!

I see a lot of color play in the videos of the first stone, so I really don't understand what bothers you in that regard...
One thing that I like a lot is the profile view of the diamond. The tall crown is part of the OEC features. The first stone has 65% depth that is the perfect depth for OEC.
Diamonds that have less that 60% depth are considered swallow even for the MRB cut. So avoid them.
The resemble of the OEC in your 2nd and 3rd stone is only in the pavilion and mostly in the shorter lower half. These two diamonds has more mirror effect that is why you probably see more bolder reflections.

 

[HopeSpringsEternal]

Hmm, yes I see what you are saying. I do love the side profile of the first stone, the tall crown is beautiful and I hadn't noticed that the other two were flatter. That would bother me but encased in the setting it's hard to see the profile of the 2nd stone although it does look much flatter. The first stone didn't really bother me, I just thought it had less colour flashing than the second stone and wondered why, it's hard for me to tell how this would translate to real life and I do love that mirror effect. I'm sure in person I could fall in love with all 3 stones (I think the 3rd one is long sold but I just used it for comparison).

I need to make a list of all my 'checkpoints' to remember to look out for, but then again I suppose even that doesn't guarantee how a stone will draw you in in real life. It's really interesting to see different peoples view points.

 

[EC8]

Hi, if you are going to Hatton Garden, I would recommend visiting Berganza of London; especially if you can see this Moi & Toi ring, #20957, the ring, and the OECs are quite lovely...link to IG post
https://www.instagram.com/p/BnjHv7kBnnB/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1jzb441o6fnkn

 

[Karl_K]

Complimentary crown and pavilion angles doesn't just apply to modern RBs.
Not all oec era diamonds were deep even before the diamond saw was introduced.
In fact they were all over the place.

Start here then read the book:
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...irst-100-years-al-gilbertson-free-pdf.228643/

 

[Karl_K]

The extremely thin girdle on the first one is a durability concern and it has a knot on the crown.
Both need to be checked out.

 

[leukolenos]

Hi, if you are going to Hatton Garden, I would recommend visiting Berganza of London; especially if you can see this Moi & Toi ring, #20957, the ring, and the OECs are quite lovely...link to IG post
https://www.instagram.com/p/BnjHv7kBnnB/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1jzb441o6fnkn

+1 this recommendation! they have BEAUTIFUL things (and lots of old cuts to look at!)! But be prepared for major sticker shock- their prices are not for the faint of heart!

My other rec for antiques in London is John Joseph in Grays Antique Market. I think his prices are fair and he's a lovely man to deal with. Very pretty stock and good customer service.

 

[Karl_K]

#3 has a very shallow pavilion angle which explains the obstruction:
Depth
56.1%
Table
61%
Crown Angle
33.0°
Crown Height
13.0%
Pavilion Angle
40.0°
Pavilion Depth
40.0%

 

[HopeSpringsEternal]

@EC8 and @leukolenos, thanks for the recommendations, I'll definitely pay Berganza a visit in a few weeks and Gray's Antique Market (heard them highly recommended before).

@Karl_K, you are really helpful, thank you. I'll have a good look at the link you posted. Out of interest is there any way to calculate the pavilion angle when it's not on the GIA report and what would you say is ideal for an OEC?

I had noticed the extremely thin girdle on the first diamond but not paid enough attention, thank you for raising it, I really wouldn't want to risk any durability issues. I'll check the specs more carefully from now on.

 

[Karl_K]

@Karl_K, you are really helpful, thank you. I'll have a good look at the link you posted. Out of interest is there any way to calculate the pavilion angle when it's not on the GIA report and what would you say is ideal for an OEC?

No not really so you have to go by optics, have a return policy and verify yourself.

 

[HopeSpringsEternal]

No not really so you have to go by optics, have a return policy and verify yourself.

All good advice which I will remember! Thanks again