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Superbcert won''t send stones to Rockdoc for appraisal?

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harry

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Feb 27, 2003
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Does anyone know why Superbcert won't send its stones to Rockdoc for appraisal? Rockdoc is the only appraiser out there who also has a Brilliance Scope machine and can independently verify the seller's Brilliance Scope results.

I refer to the link below which discusses online diamond sellers who inflate the Brilliance Scope results of their stones by improperly calibrating their Brilliance Scope machines. Superbcert is not specifically accused, but it is true that Superbcert won't send its stones to Rockdoc.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/impartial-brilliance-scope-results.6601/

Harry
 

Adrienne

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2003
Messages
120
Harry - just wondering how you know whether SuperbCert will send their diamonds to RockDoc? Did you ask them to send yours?
 

harry

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Messages
50
Just ask Superbcert and Rockdoc and they will tell you it's true.
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
-----------
I refer to the link below which discusses online
diamond sellers who inflate the Brilliance Scope
results of their stones by improperly calibrating
their Brilliance Scope machines. Superbcert is not
specifically accused, but it is true that Superbcert
won't send its stones to Rockdoc.
-----------

From my knowledge, this has nothing to do with why SuperbCert won't send stones to Rockdoc.

I believe the issue is over Rockdoc's stance on strain, which SuperbCert disagrees with.
 

trichrome

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Messages
397
So when a company doesn't want to send a stone to the appraiser of YOUR choice anymore..
we can't say that this company is not trying to control in a way or another the evaluation
that was supposed to be 100% independant.

I, as a consumer, would pass on such a company.

Trichrome.
 

lawmax

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
1,317
----------------
On 5/17/2003 7:41:42 AM trichrome wrote:

So when a company doesn't want to send a stone to the appraiser of YOUR choice anymore..
we can't say that this company is not trying to control in a way or another the evaluation
that was supposed to be 100% independant.

Trichrome.
----------------

Maybe.....maybe not. "Supposed to be?"
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
I'm beginning to think the Diamond bus., sans a few, are quite disfunctional.
 

Hest88

Ideal_Rock
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Jan 22, 2003
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4,357
The Internet diamond world is very small, and Barry and Rocdoc know each other much too well.
 

harry

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Messages
50
Superbcert, would you send your stone to Gemex for Brilliance Scope verification? I think a lot of us are interested in understanding why you won't send your stones to Rockdoc.

Richard mentioned the issue involves strain, can someone please explain the specifics of the issue? Thanks.
 

Final Cut

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 21, 2003
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85
I would pass on a vendor, who would refuse independent verification - unless there was a VERY good reason for it.
 

dimonbob

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Dec 12, 2000
Messages
670
I can give you several good reasons why a vendor will not send a diamond to any independent appraiser of the customers choice.
A - Some, even most, jewelry appraisers do not have the insurance to cover an expensive diamond.
B - Many appraisers do not have the knowledge, equipment, training, or experience to make an educated independent appraisal or diamond cut judgement. Case in point...any of you, gemologist or not, can hang up a sign saying you are a jewelry appraiser.
C - Many appraisers, who say they are independent, sell diamonds or recommend certain jewelers "that can find you a nicer diamond for a better price".
Should I go on?
We have five very qualified appraisers throughout the country, RockDoc is one, that we will send our diamonds to. If the customer wants to take our diamond to an appraiser of his choice during the inspection period, he is free to do so.
If RocDoc, or any of the others, gave thumbs down on one of our diamonds, we would not appreciate it but it would be his call and he is working for the customer, not us.
 

DiamondExpert

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2003
Messages
1,245
Turtle: I doubt that this protracted thread will answer anyone's questions about strain - unless it is "strain" between the individuals participating.

No one has even answered the very basic questions about how the anomalous polarization images translate quantitatively into strain liability and how this might be related to durability issues, if any, in polished stones.

Since there have been NO scientific (and by this I mean studies following scientific principles) studies of strain before and after damage and a quantitative evaluation of probable risk, one can argue the issue ad infinitum.

If clients want to know if the stone they are considering shows polarization anomalies, fine, this is easy to do. But as to what it means, your guess is as good as anyones.

As far as insurance companies are concerned, if they can find a way to screw the insuree, they will use it to their full advantage.

One final comment - if SuperbCert.com won't send their stones to Bill for evaluation that's their business, but it doesn't mean that other venders of this brand won't - ourselves included! We value Bill's service to the client, since we know it is impartial.

Regards,
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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On 5/17/2003 1
3:55 PM Hest88 wrote:

"The Internet diamond world is very small, and Barry and Rocdoc know each other much too well."

In other words this is the tip of an iceberg, Harry.

I don't know if anyone besides Barry and rockdoc knows the entire saga, but it is a long one. I clicked on the DT "post" link and was transported to a thread on strain which I had assiduously avoided whilst still reading Diamond Talk.

I was just as bored by the discussion of strain now as I was back when it was first posted there. This time, however, I noticed that all the principle posters to that thread have been banned!

Is this good for Diamond Talk? They banned all the posters who bored me in that thread. On the other hand, those boring people were the ones who understood topics like "strain" (i.e. the experts). I would think that diamond forums *should* keep a few bores around just to lend credence to the forum...even if some of us refuse to read the technical stuff they write :).
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Messages
14,913
I think that was a complinent AGBF?

The polarisation efects of strain are supposed to mean you need to cut a diamond differently, this was one of Roc's first areas of discussion on the topic.
He got the story from a certain diamond cutter who was a grammar teacher in a previous life.
That story was given support by Dr Reinitz, a Geochemist.
They were all blown out of the water by Sergey, the mathemeatician physicst - the deviation in light caused by polarisation (a result of stress) would mean a facet might need to change by 0.001 or 0.00001 degree (I can not remember exactly) which is so small that no one could ever compensate for it.

Then Roc went on and on about damage, which I believe he did to justify all the money he had already made out of testing for it.
Anyone know what a furphy is?
 

harry

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
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50
OMG! what a waste of time reading that LOOOOONNNNNNGGGGGG DT thread on strain. Still no answers to whether or not strain matters.

I started this thread wondering about Superbcert's Brilliance Scope reports and why Superbcert won't allow Rockdoc to appraise its stones. Besides the issue of strain, is there anything else about Superbcert's stones that I or any other consumer should know about? Will Superbcert send stones to Gemex for verification?
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
-----------
Besides the issue of strain, is there anything else about Superbcert's
stones that I or any other consumer should know about?
-----------

Yes. They are superb.

-----------
Will Superbcert send stones to Gemex for verification?
-----------

Now that the Jewish sabbath is over, I'm sure Barry will comment shortly.
My guess is that he'll have no problem sending a stone to Gemex for verification.
 

Final Cut

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 21, 2003
Messages
85
I as a consumer would excercise my right not to purchase from a vendor, who does not wish for his/her results to be verified by an independent appraiser. It is simply my right as long as the money is mine to spend !

This long thread about strain is very interesting (read smokescreen), however it does not answer the question about why certain vendors, who are being touted on this board as the most reliable, expert and flexible vendors will refuse to have their goods tested independently before selling them to an insecure consumer, who is spending his/her money !

I guess only Barry can answer this pretty fundamental question - send to Rock, send to Gemex - anyone ? Do we get an answer on this ?

Thanks.


 

Hest88

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 22, 2003
Messages
4,357
Final Cut, I tried to be oblique, but I guess I should be more direct.

Barry has no problems sending to independent appraisers. He *does* have a problem sending to Rocdoc. I'm sure he has legitimate professional reasons, but, knowing some of the history there, I suspect it's just as much personal as it is professional.
 

Final Cut

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 21, 2003
Messages
85
Hey Hest,

Thanks for the info - I was just interested in finding out if he would or would not send them for appraisal - I don't really care about personal issues (although I would normally tend to keep the two separate) - but as a consumer I think it is important to know whether a vendor will or will not send his stones for appraise, not who he will send it to !

Thanks again !
FC
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Messages
20,743
On 5/18/2003 4:16:13 AM Cut Nut wrote:

"I think that was a complinent AGBF?"

But of course, Garry! I simply *adore* men who are too smart to understand!
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Messages
20,743
On 5/18/2003 11:29:58 AM Hest88 wrote:

"I tried to be oblique"

Shoulda known better
.
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,271
Whether a person agrees or disagrees with RockDoc on a certain issue is moot. Rockdoc is an accredited appraiser and if the consumer wants to hire his professional services or not is up to them ... NOT THE VENDOR. I have spoken with a number of clients who've experienced the same thing. The shame in this is that RockDoc was so instrumental in helping Barry get on the map (as were others) and now is being cut off because Barry is not happy with the facts that RockDoc supplies. I may not agree with the strain issue either but if John Q chooses to hire Bill for his professional analysis WHO AM I to tell him who he can or can not have his diamond appraised with? Barry was upset that I would cherry pick among his stock and not buy everything or that I would not make a blanket endorsement of his product (while we carried certain of his stones) becuase we would only endorse stones we personally inspected so this does not surprise me.

Peace,
Rhino
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Hi, Jonathan!

If anyone needs to know how you fit into the equation I will be glad to supply that information. (Your posting is bound to provoke questions.)

It's nice to have been here for centuries. One remembers all the skeletons and all the closets...even if he sometimes forgets whose skeleton is in whose closet
.

If anyone wants to know where the bodies are buried, just ask me.
 

harry

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Messages
50
I would like to know if you don't mind explaining.

Also, I can understand if a retailer doesn't agree with an appraiser on the issue of strain, but why does that mean the retailer has to stop sending stones to that appraiser? Both sides can explain their views to the consumer and the consumer can decide. I guess the bottom line is this:

Are the stats on Superbcert's stones inflated or is Rockdoc biased against Superbcert?

I would be very interested in some stats, say out of 10 stones from Superbcert, how many would Rockdoc reject?
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
-----------
I was just interested in finding out if he would or
would not send them for appraisal
-----------

Yes, Barry will send a diamond out for independent evaluation. I received a diamond just last week from SuperbCert at a client's request.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Messages
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On 5/18/2003 9
0:28 PM harry wrote:

"I would like to know if you don't mind explaining."

Well, I wasn't 100% sure to whom this remark was directed, so I decided to reply to it.

Once Barry supplied Jan and Brad (Diamond Brokers of Florida) with stones. Everyone agrees they were very beautiful...and unbranded. At that time the vendors who post to the on-line forums didn't know Barry.

Barry then started to work with rockdoc and Jonathan. Jonathan did a great job educating the public about Barry's stones. Rockdoc promoted them. Barry started to brand them.

Then Barry started to sell his stones directly to the public, thereby cutting out Jonathan.

Exactly why rockdoc and Barry split, rockdoc remaining close to USACerted, is unclear to me, but that's what happened.

I have never met any of the characters in this drama in person and have done business only with Diamond Brokers of Florida (very ethical). Whether you like one more than another is up to you.

Whatever goes on behind the scenes, however (and there's a lot): Barry sells nice diamonds; Jonathan sells nice diamonds; and rockdoc is a qualified appraiser whose reports are sometimes late, but very expert.

Some vendors do not agree with rockdoc's having a list of people who send diamonds to him and some have other disagreements with him. Therefore, you cannot judge a vendor simply by whether he sends stones to *rockdoc* before the customer pays for it. Many vendors will allow you to send it to other independent apraisers, but not rockdoc (due to his list or other past history).

You cannot judge rockdoc just because one vendor or another may not want a stone sent to him: many (like Barry) have a long history with him and, therefore, factors other than rockdoc's competence come into play. Factors of which you would, naturally, be unaware.

I am afraid I have not been helpful. Basically I seem to have said you can't possibly judge anything according to the way it appears
.
 
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