pricescope
Ideal_Rock
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just in case... let's do not turn it into personal vendettas, guys
Superbcert won''t send stones to Rockdoc for appraisal?
- Thread starter harry
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It sounds like Payton Place - or some TV soap opera.
Great summary AGBF.
Actually Leonid I think everyone has been fair on this thread.
I hope Barry and Roc would explain their sides politely.
Great summary AGBF.
Actually Leonid I think everyone has been fair on this thread.
I hope Barry and Roc would explain their sides politely.
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
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I'm relatively uneducated on this topic, but as a consumer, the following appears to be the most logical approach:
If I want an appraisal, the vendor should be entitled to tell me that he is willing to send it without payment for the stone up front to any of the appraisers he has good working relationships with. It's done with a mutual professional courtesy. A vendor shouldn't be expected to send his merchandise without payment to just any appraiser.
However, if I am willing to pay for the stone prior to appraisal (with a reasonable return policy), then the vendor should ship it to any vendor I select, regardless of his likes/dislikes of that appraiser.
If I want an appraisal, the vendor should be entitled to tell me that he is willing to send it without payment for the stone up front to any of the appraisers he has good working relationships with. It's done with a mutual professional courtesy. A vendor shouldn't be expected to send his merchandise without payment to just any appraiser.
However, if I am willing to pay for the stone prior to appraisal (with a reasonable return policy), then the vendor should ship it to any vendor I select, regardless of his likes/dislikes of that appraiser.
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On 5/19/2003 11
7
7 AM aljdewey wrote:
"I'm relatively uneducated on this topic, but as a consumer, the following appears to be the most logical approach:
If I want an appraisal, the vendor should be entitled to tell me that he is willing to send it without payment for the stone up front to any of the appraisers he has good working relationships with."
You are being generous to the vendor here, aljdewey
. If a consumer wants a truly independent appraisal he should (in my opinion) get it from someone who has *no* relationship with the vendor.
Leonid, as to your concern about vendettas: I am being very, very good. You know that. I am *not* trying to start trouble, just trying to lay out the facts without editorial comment
.
"I'm relatively uneducated on this topic, but as a consumer, the following appears to be the most logical approach:
If I want an appraisal, the vendor should be entitled to tell me that he is willing to send it without payment for the stone up front to any of the appraisers he has good working relationships with."
You are being generous to the vendor here, aljdewey
Leonid, as to your concern about vendettas: I am being very, very good. You know that. I am *not* trying to start trouble, just trying to lay out the facts without editorial comment
pricescope
Ideal_Rock
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AGBF:
I wrote "just in case"...
Appreciate it----------------
Leonid, as to your concern about vendettas: I am being very, very good. You know that. I am *not* trying to start trouble, just trying to lay out the facts without editorial comment.
----------------
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
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Hi, ABGF: I think we're saying the same thing in different ways. I think you missed the caveat I placed upon it.----------------
On 5/19/2003 3:34:59 PM AGBF wrote:
You are being generous to the vendor here, aljdeweyIf a consumer wants a truly independent appraisal he should (in my opinion) get it from someone who has *no* relationship with the vendor.
----------------
Several of the vendors here will ship stones to reputable appraisers WITHOUT requiring the customer to pay for the diamond up front. Other vendors require the customer to pay for the stone(s) up front before sending them to the appraiser, knowing that it may be returned.
My point was and is this: it's a courtesy for a vendor to send a diamond that hasn't been paid for to an appraiser. The vendor should feel comfortable that the appraiser is reputable because it's his money on the line at this point.
Conversely, if a customer determines that the purchase of a diamond is contingent upon a satisfactory independent appraisal, he should be able to select anyone he wants AS LONG AS he's willing to pay for the diamond prior to it's shipment to appraiser....i.e., 10/20/30 day return policy.
Incidentally, I agree with you in premise a "truly" independent appraisal, would be one that comes from someone with *no* relationship with the vendor. Having said that, it's almost impossible in practice, and even more so in a forum such as this. Once an appraiser grades one diamond from a vendor, there is now a history or loosely defined relationship. It doesn't mean the appraiser is biased, it just means that he has worked with stones from this vendor before.
There are several commonly recommended vendors on here, and the same for appraisers. It would be nearly impossible to expect, for example, that Rich Sherwood has NO relationship with the vendors. What IS reasonable to expect, and what he does EXCEEDINGLY well, is to maintain a standard of neutrality and integrity. I've seen him reply to posts many times by saying, "I cannot recommend specific vendors, but I'm sure others can". He goes out of his way to be ethical in his dealings with customers and vendors.
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On 5/19/2003 4:19:10 PM aljdewey wrote:
"Incidentally, I agree with you in premise a "truly" independent appraisal, would be one that comes from someone with *no* relationship with the vendor. Having said that, it's almost impossible in practice, and even more so in a forum such as this. Once an appraiser grades one diamond from a vendor, there is now a history or loosely defined relationship. It doesn't mean the appraiser is biased, it just means that he has worked with stones from this vendor before.
There are several commonly recommended vendors on here, and the same for appraisers. It would be nearly impossible to expect, for example, that Rich Sherwood has NO relationship with the vendors. What IS reasonable to expect, and what he does EXCEEDINGLY well, is to maintain a standard of neutrality and integrity. I've seen him reply to posts many times by saying, "I cannot recommend specific vendors, but I'm sure others can". He goes out of his way to be ethical in his dealings with customers and vendors."
Yes, aljdewey, I think that it is fair for a vendor to allow a buyer to have an appraisal from anyone *after* he buys the stone...during the guarantee period.
When I bought my first diamond off the 'net (before meeting Jan and Brad) I bought it from Ray Elsey at the Tradeshop. Then I bought another one on line from Blue Nile.
Since I didn't know Ray Elsey back then I did want to have the diamond appraised. I looked for someone *local* to me who would have had no way of knowing where I had bought the stone.
In the end I didn't even have it appraised independently, but if I had it would have been by someone who didn't *know* where I got the stone. Naturally of one goes to a vendor and an appraiser known on the 'net diamond groups they will "know" each other in some fashion!
In summary, if you and I weren't saying exactly the same thing, at least I do not find us in discord
.
"Incidentally, I agree with you in premise a "truly" independent appraisal, would be one that comes from someone with *no* relationship with the vendor. Having said that, it's almost impossible in practice, and even more so in a forum such as this. Once an appraiser grades one diamond from a vendor, there is now a history or loosely defined relationship. It doesn't mean the appraiser is biased, it just means that he has worked with stones from this vendor before.
There are several commonly recommended vendors on here, and the same for appraisers. It would be nearly impossible to expect, for example, that Rich Sherwood has NO relationship with the vendors. What IS reasonable to expect, and what he does EXCEEDINGLY well, is to maintain a standard of neutrality and integrity. I've seen him reply to posts many times by saying, "I cannot recommend specific vendors, but I'm sure others can". He goes out of his way to be ethical in his dealings with customers and vendors."
Yes, aljdewey, I think that it is fair for a vendor to allow a buyer to have an appraisal from anyone *after* he buys the stone...during the guarantee period.
When I bought my first diamond off the 'net (before meeting Jan and Brad) I bought it from Ray Elsey at the Tradeshop. Then I bought another one on line from Blue Nile.
Since I didn't know Ray Elsey back then I did want to have the diamond appraised. I looked for someone *local* to me who would have had no way of knowing where I had bought the stone.
In the end I didn't even have it appraised independently, but if I had it would have been by someone who didn't *know* where I got the stone. Naturally of one goes to a vendor and an appraiser known on the 'net diamond groups they will "know" each other in some fashion!
In summary, if you and I weren't saying exactly the same thing, at least I do not find us in discord
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I know AGBF is not insinuating anything by relationships that exist among clients, vendor & appraisers here but it does lead a person to think there may be some chummy chummy relationships which would perhaps cause certain appraisers to be soft in grading stones from a certain vendor or not. This could be further from the truth concerning RockDoc whom I know for a period of approx. 3 years. Till this day he councels against certain of our stones, although most pass his tests (and I'm one of the pickiest dam purchasers I know of!).
This points to his true integrity when it comes to actual diamond grading and his professional opinion. I've never met an appraiser who has pissed more people off in the industry because he could not be bought. And although I do disagree with him also on the strain issue (this is one issue I would side with Barry on) I can't help but respect the man for remaining neautral when it comes to his analysis of a diamond.
My .02c
Rhino
This points to his true integrity when it comes to actual diamond grading and his professional opinion. I've never met an appraiser who has pissed more people off in the industry because he could not be bought. And although I do disagree with him also on the strain issue (this is one issue I would side with Barry on) I can't help but respect the man for remaining neautral when it comes to his analysis of a diamond.
My .02c
Rhino
Richard Sherwood
Ideal_Rock
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- Sep 25, 2002
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- 4,924
-----------
It would be nearly impossible to expect, for example, that Rich
Sherwood has NO relationship with the vendors. What IS reasonable to
expect, and what he does EXCEEDINGLY well, is to maintain a standard
of neutrality and integrity. I've seen him reply to posts many times
by saying, "I cannot recommend specific vendors, but I'm sure others
can". He goes out of his way to be ethical in his dealings with
customers and vendors.
-----------
Hey thanks Aljdewey!
I lost the address for your payoff though. Can you send it to me again?
Rich
It would be nearly impossible to expect, for example, that Rich
Sherwood has NO relationship with the vendors. What IS reasonable to
expect, and what he does EXCEEDINGLY well, is to maintain a standard
of neutrality and integrity. I've seen him reply to posts many times
by saying, "I cannot recommend specific vendors, but I'm sure others
can". He goes out of his way to be ethical in his dealings with
customers and vendors.
-----------
Hey thanks Aljdewey!
I lost the address for your payoff though. Can you send it to me again?
Rich
Richard Sherwood
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2002
- Messages
- 4,924
-----------
Hey ... remember you still owe me a dinner at McDonalds or Burger
King!!!
-----------
Because of your exemplary character, I have decided to upgrade you to Kentucky Fried Chicken.
Hey ... remember you still owe me a dinner at McDonalds or Burger
King!!!
-----------
Because of your exemplary character, I have decided to upgrade you to Kentucky Fried Chicken.
optimized
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 306
"Because of your exemplary character, I have decided to upgrade you to Kentucky Fried Chicken."
KFC is an upgrade???
Maybe it's just the memories from my youth, but KFC has never been a favorite of mine. EVERYTHING there seemed to taste of chicken...including the fries. Eewww.... Then again, I don't even think they even have regular "fries" anymore...
Anyway, I think Jonathan EASILY rates a hearty Wendy's meal. Don't you?
-Tim
KFC is an upgrade???
Maybe it's just the memories from my youth, but KFC has never been a favorite of mine. EVERYTHING there seemed to taste of chicken...including the fries. Eewww.... Then again, I don't even think they even have regular "fries" anymore...
Anyway, I think Jonathan EASILY rates a hearty Wendy's meal. Don't you?
-Tim
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2001
- Messages
- 6,340
LMAO!!! Ok ... now we're talkin.----------------
On 5/20/2003 12:30:17 AM optimized wrote:
"Because of your exemplary character, I have decided to upgrade you to Kentucky Fried Chicken."
KFC is an upgrade???
Maybe it's just the memories from my youth, but KFC has never been a favorite of mine. EVERYTHING there seemed to taste of chicken...including the fries. Eewww.... Then again, I don't even think they even have regular "fries" anymore...
Anyway, I think Jonathan EASILY rates a hearty Wendy's meal. Don't you?
-Tim
----------------
69gm
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2003
- Messages
- 287
you guys are tooooooooooooooooo funny! talk about LMAO!!!
hey rhino AND rich: for all your help, if you're ever in hawaii, i'll buy you guys a good ol' "plate lunch". not sure what that is? well you're just going to have to take a little v-a-c-a-t-i-o-n to find out.
aloha
hey rhino AND rich: for all your help, if you're ever in hawaii, i'll buy you guys a good ol' "plate lunch". not sure what that is? well you're just going to have to take a little v-a-c-a-t-i-o-n to find out.
aloha
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
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- 9,170
Harry:
Are you asking Barry to send the stone to RockDoc without having paid for it first?
If you are willing to pay for the stone prior to shipping to RockDoc, with the proviso that you will be able to return the stone if you aren't satisfied with the results of RockDoc's evaluation, then I see no reason why Barry or any other vendor should deny you that.
If Barry (or ANY vendor) is unwilling to ship to an appraiser of YOUR choosing (as long as you pay for the stone prior to shipment), then I'd pass. Just my opinion.
Are you asking Barry to send the stone to RockDoc without having paid for it first?
If you are willing to pay for the stone prior to shipping to RockDoc, with the proviso that you will be able to return the stone if you aren't satisfied with the results of RockDoc's evaluation, then I see no reason why Barry or any other vendor should deny you that.
If Barry (or ANY vendor) is unwilling to ship to an appraiser of YOUR choosing (as long as you pay for the stone prior to shipment), then I'd pass. Just my opinion.
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On 5/19/2003 8:28
9 PM Rhino wrote:
"I know AGBF is not insinuating anything by relationships that exist among clients, vendor & appraisers here but it does lead a person to think there may be some chummy chummy relationships which would perhaps cause certain appraisers to be soft in grading stones from a certain vendor or not. This could be further from the truth concerning RockDoc whom I know for a period of approx. 3 years."
Yes, Jonathan, you are right that I was in no way insinuating here that any specific vendors and appraisers had a chummy relationship which would cause said appraisers to be soft on stones being sold by said vendors. (I shoulda been a lawyer!)
As I hope I made very, very clear I was in no way saying anything negative about rockdoc (whom you name).
IN *FACT* I wrote in a previous posting:
"You cannot judge rockdoc just because one vendor or another may not want a stone sent to him: many (like Barry) have a long history with him and, therefore, factors other than rockdoc's competence come into play. Factors of which you would, naturally, be unaware."
Since you mention the issue, however, I want to remind the potential diamond *buyers* that this problem can arise between vendors and appraisers, though.
In other words, not everyone selling diamonds (or even appraising them) is ethical and the buyer should proceed with caution until he knows his vendor very, very well.
The buyer has different options (as aljdewey laid out with great specificity). He can have it appraised by an appraiser to whom his vendor is willing to send it before he pays (if his vendor has such a relationship with anyone) or he can buy it and have it appraised by a person entirely of his own choosing during the guarantee period.
I don't want to make consumers think that because some of us know and trust each other that the entire world is a nice, kind place where everyone plays fair.
"I know AGBF is not insinuating anything by relationships that exist among clients, vendor & appraisers here but it does lead a person to think there may be some chummy chummy relationships which would perhaps cause certain appraisers to be soft in grading stones from a certain vendor or not. This could be further from the truth concerning RockDoc whom I know for a period of approx. 3 years."
Yes, Jonathan, you are right that I was in no way insinuating here that any specific vendors and appraisers had a chummy relationship which would cause said appraisers to be soft on stones being sold by said vendors. (I shoulda been a lawyer!)
As I hope I made very, very clear I was in no way saying anything negative about rockdoc (whom you name).
IN *FACT* I wrote in a previous posting:
"You cannot judge rockdoc just because one vendor or another may not want a stone sent to him: many (like Barry) have a long history with him and, therefore, factors other than rockdoc's competence come into play. Factors of which you would, naturally, be unaware."
Since you mention the issue, however, I want to remind the potential diamond *buyers* that this problem can arise between vendors and appraisers, though.
In other words, not everyone selling diamonds (or even appraising them) is ethical and the buyer should proceed with caution until he knows his vendor very, very well.
The buyer has different options (as aljdewey laid out with great specificity). He can have it appraised by an appraiser to whom his vendor is willing to send it before he pays (if his vendor has such a relationship with anyone) or he can buy it and have it appraised by a person entirely of his own choosing during the guarantee period.
I don't want to make consumers think that because some of us know and trust each other that the entire world is a nice, kind place where everyone plays fair.
----------------
On 5/20/2003 1061 AM aljdewey wrote:
If you are willing to pay for the stone prior to shipping to RockDoc, with the proviso that you will be able to return the stone if you aren't satisfied with the results of RockDoc's evaluation, then I see no reason why Barry or any other vendor should deny you that.
----------------
Another thing to keep in mind. Though shipping is free if you buy the diamond shipped to you, since the vendor has to ship to an appraiser, you'll have to factor in the shipping cost both ways as well. Also, if he pays for the diamond first with a credit card, the vendor might have to pay some fees if he issues a refund. Maybe one of the vendors can chime in on how credit card refund fee works.
If he pays by bank wire, there's the bank wire fee to and from the vendor which I assume the buyer will have to pay in the event he doesn't buy the diamond.
So, keep in mind all these different costs (though little compared to the actual purchase price of the diamond) as well.
69gm
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2003
- Messages
- 287
hey jlim,
where is that place you talked about? i'm always looking for new places to eat. and sometimes it's the tourists that eat at places i would never even think about. was it at the northshore? there's a place out there called "kua'aina burger" that has the best sandwiches on the island IMHO.
rhino,
hurry up! i'm getting hungry!
hey rich,
are you joining us or what?
sorry to get off of the subject to the original thread...but all this talk of food was intriguing...i really am getting hungry now!
seriously rhino and rich, let me know if you ever really are in town. lunch is on me!
where is that place you talked about? i'm always looking for new places to eat. and sometimes it's the tourists that eat at places i would never even think about. was it at the northshore? there's a place out there called "kua'aina burger" that has the best sandwiches on the island IMHO.
rhino,
hurry up! i'm getting hungry!
hey rich,
are you joining us or what?
sorry to get off of the subject to the original thread...but all this talk of food was intriguing...i really am getting hungry now!
seriously rhino and rich, let me know if you ever really are in town. lunch is on me!
Richard Sherwood
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2002
- Messages
- 4,924
That's enough incentive to come to Hawaii right now.
Forget about all those half naked native girls walking around leing everybody.
Forget about all those half naked native girls walking around leing everybody.
----------------
On 5/20/2003 5:584 PM 69gm wrote:
where is that place you talked about? i'm always looking for new places to eat. and sometimes it's the tourists that eat at places i would never even think about. was it at the northshore? there's a place out there called "kua'aina burger" that has the best sandwiches on the island IMHO.
----------------
I've no idea where it is. I only remember it was on Oahu. There's a lot of small small stores along a street. The burger joint is on the right side of the street if I'm coming from the city. I think it is around a famous shaved ice store - starts with M.
But that place has the best burgers in town I was told. The mahi mahi burger w/ avocado was very good.
I also had a chance to sample some shrimp served out of an old VW van on the way to a museum. That gave a new meaning to hot shrimp. I usually eat very spicy food. I can't eat more than 3-4 shrimps.
niceice
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2003
- Messages
- 1,792
As with any industry, there are times when the participants disagree for a variety of reasons, some real and some perceived. Like most internet dealers, we send diamonds out on approval to various independent gemologists who provide a valuable verification service for the people buying the diamonds... There are times when we disagree with the opinion assigned to the laboratory on a diamond sent into grading for a variety of reasons and there are times when the independent gemologists disagree with that opinion... Sometimes our "opinions" are in-sync and other times we agree to disagree, but the important thing is that the client is provided with yet another opinion about the stone because yet another pair of qualified eyes have taken a look at it. There have been times when the gemologist LOVES the diamond we send out and other times when they don't love it so much... That isn't really important, what is important is that the client has had the opportunity to have their mind set at ease about their purchase and to have that peace of mind provided by the gemologist of their choice - not a preferred list selected by the seller... RockDoc is one of the most recognized G.G.'s in the market and it seems foolish to us to refuse to send diamonds to him simply because of differences in opinion and personality (if that is the case) but we suppose that everybody gets to make their own choices about how they decide to run their business - after all, that IS one of the reasons why they are in business for themselves
optimized
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 306
Just to provide another perspective on this potentially contentious issue, I'd like to offer a word of caution about disparaging either of the gentlemen involved without knowing all the facts about the reasons behind the policy. Neither Rockdoc nor Barry have given any input as to the reasons behind this policy so it's risky to jump to conclusions. Then again, I don't actually expect either of them to comment since responding to these sorts of threads in the past has frequently devolved into embarrassingly juvenile flame wars between whichever participants happen to be involved. If this is the (seemingly likely) reason for the silence on both of their parts, I almost feel like applauding them for mutually maintaining professional discretion and decorum in the forums. There may be hope for the industry yet.
While it may be tempting to think that there's never a good reason for a seller to refuse to send a diamond to "the appraiser of the consumer's choice," a few others here have already posted some very valid reasons why it may not be in the interest of a seller to send their products to an appraiser who they feel will not offer appropriate treatment, or that they simply don't get along with. I think that some of what's been written here is on target, while some opinions may be more conjecture than reality.
I understand the sentiments expressed about the importance of granting the consumer the option of having a prospective diamond purchase verified by an independent appraiser, but let's try to keep in mind that it appears that option is still entirely open to the consumer. The only thing different is that exactly one individual is not included in the list of "independent appraisers" who are eligible to receive that courtesy directly through SuperbCert. Yes, Rockdoc is a respected appraiser and has earned a great reputation through years of service for the consumer, but he is also just one of many qualified appraisers. IMO the omission of his name from the list of appraisers to which SuperbCert will send diamonds for pre-purchase appraisal hardly seems to be denying the consumer the ability to confirm the quality of SuperbCert's products. I'm sure some will continue to see it as an unfair policy, but if it's that important to the consumer that it be Rockdoc who looks over the stone, the option of sending the stone directly to him after receipt is still viable. Barry isn't really dictating who can appraise his diamonds as much as he's dictating who he himself will send diamonds to, which is an entirely different thing. I think aljdeway summed up that point nicely earlier in the thread.
My readings here and elsewhere lead me to believe that it is entirely probable that this policy indeed does stem, at least initially, from the "strain" issue that Richard mentioned early in this thread. If memory serves, Rockdoc has long held and promoted the idea that strain is a truly bad thing that can have a direct impact on the durability of a diamond, while literally every other dealer/appraiser whose opinion I've ever read in any forum has discounted the phenomenon as insignificant to a stone's durability. I suppose that doesn't mean Rockdoc is wrong (he may just be ahead of his time), but his opinion seems to definitely be in the minority among the diamond community.
I seem to remember reading that Barry and Rockdoc have had ongoing debates about this topic for several months with no real resolution. While I wasn't privy to the private conversations between the two (darn), it seems as though there is some lingering tension between them which would make it entirely possible that they mutually agreed to stay out of each other's business. The situation as we understand it may well be mutual, and as such IMO probably shouldn't reflect negatively on either of them. I worry that the situation is being cast as "Barry refuses to send diamonds to Rockdoc," when for all we here know, Barry's stones may not be welcome at Rockdoc's office. I'm not proposing this is the case (I have no idea), but it is just as possible a scenario as the others that have been proposed. In the end, all we know is that it seems the two gentlemen have had a disagreement that makes them reluctant to do business with each other. While obviously regrettable for all involved, to me this is the kind of situation that has played out countless times in the world, both in business and in personal affairs. Often these situations are just personal differences reflecting the divergent opinions of the individuals involved. I suppose in a perfect world this sort of thing wouldn't happen, but the chances of us seeing a perfect world played out in the diamond industry is about as likely as any of us ever seeing a truly "perfect" hearts and arrows pattern present itself.
For the record (and to maybe set Harry's mind at ease), the topic of Barry sending stones to Gemex has been brought up before, and he has expressed an agreeable willingness to have any of his stones sent there for verification of SuperbCert's results. My impression is that he has nothing to hide, and except for Harry's leap from "SuperbCert won't send diamonds to Rockdoc" to "are SuperbCert's BrillianceScope results suspect because he won't send them to Rockdoc?," nobody has suggested that Barry's BrillianceScope results are in doubt. It seems that the issue revolves around strain, but Harry seems to have focused on the BrillianceScope angle. If I've missed something here, someone please let me know. Heck, send me a private message if you don't want to open a can of worms here in the forum. I'm always open to new information.
I've made no secret of the fact that I purchased my sweetie's diamond from Barry, and I know that I enjoyed a level of service and professionalism (not to mention quality of product) that leaves me with no regrets whatsoever. I have no idea if the diamond I purchased "suffers" from strain, but I also know that the consensus within the diamond community (save one respected professional) allows me to sleep well at night knowing that whatever strain my sweetie's diamond may have, the overwhelming consensus is that it will have no impact on the diamond's durability. I do however know that I purchased an amazing diamond that is stunning to look at and that my sweetie adores, and ultimately that is what's important to me.
My $0.02...
-Tim
While it may be tempting to think that there's never a good reason for a seller to refuse to send a diamond to "the appraiser of the consumer's choice," a few others here have already posted some very valid reasons why it may not be in the interest of a seller to send their products to an appraiser who they feel will not offer appropriate treatment, or that they simply don't get along with. I think that some of what's been written here is on target, while some opinions may be more conjecture than reality.
I understand the sentiments expressed about the importance of granting the consumer the option of having a prospective diamond purchase verified by an independent appraiser, but let's try to keep in mind that it appears that option is still entirely open to the consumer. The only thing different is that exactly one individual is not included in the list of "independent appraisers" who are eligible to receive that courtesy directly through SuperbCert. Yes, Rockdoc is a respected appraiser and has earned a great reputation through years of service for the consumer, but he is also just one of many qualified appraisers. IMO the omission of his name from the list of appraisers to which SuperbCert will send diamonds for pre-purchase appraisal hardly seems to be denying the consumer the ability to confirm the quality of SuperbCert's products. I'm sure some will continue to see it as an unfair policy, but if it's that important to the consumer that it be Rockdoc who looks over the stone, the option of sending the stone directly to him after receipt is still viable. Barry isn't really dictating who can appraise his diamonds as much as he's dictating who he himself will send diamonds to, which is an entirely different thing. I think aljdeway summed up that point nicely earlier in the thread.
My readings here and elsewhere lead me to believe that it is entirely probable that this policy indeed does stem, at least initially, from the "strain" issue that Richard mentioned early in this thread. If memory serves, Rockdoc has long held and promoted the idea that strain is a truly bad thing that can have a direct impact on the durability of a diamond, while literally every other dealer/appraiser whose opinion I've ever read in any forum has discounted the phenomenon as insignificant to a stone's durability. I suppose that doesn't mean Rockdoc is wrong (he may just be ahead of his time), but his opinion seems to definitely be in the minority among the diamond community.
I seem to remember reading that Barry and Rockdoc have had ongoing debates about this topic for several months with no real resolution. While I wasn't privy to the private conversations between the two (darn), it seems as though there is some lingering tension between them which would make it entirely possible that they mutually agreed to stay out of each other's business. The situation as we understand it may well be mutual, and as such IMO probably shouldn't reflect negatively on either of them. I worry that the situation is being cast as "Barry refuses to send diamonds to Rockdoc," when for all we here know, Barry's stones may not be welcome at Rockdoc's office. I'm not proposing this is the case (I have no idea), but it is just as possible a scenario as the others that have been proposed. In the end, all we know is that it seems the two gentlemen have had a disagreement that makes them reluctant to do business with each other. While obviously regrettable for all involved, to me this is the kind of situation that has played out countless times in the world, both in business and in personal affairs. Often these situations are just personal differences reflecting the divergent opinions of the individuals involved. I suppose in a perfect world this sort of thing wouldn't happen, but the chances of us seeing a perfect world played out in the diamond industry is about as likely as any of us ever seeing a truly "perfect" hearts and arrows pattern present itself.
For the record (and to maybe set Harry's mind at ease), the topic of Barry sending stones to Gemex has been brought up before, and he has expressed an agreeable willingness to have any of his stones sent there for verification of SuperbCert's results. My impression is that he has nothing to hide, and except for Harry's leap from "SuperbCert won't send diamonds to Rockdoc" to "are SuperbCert's BrillianceScope results suspect because he won't send them to Rockdoc?," nobody has suggested that Barry's BrillianceScope results are in doubt. It seems that the issue revolves around strain, but Harry seems to have focused on the BrillianceScope angle. If I've missed something here, someone please let me know. Heck, send me a private message if you don't want to open a can of worms here in the forum. I'm always open to new information.
I've made no secret of the fact that I purchased my sweetie's diamond from Barry, and I know that I enjoyed a level of service and professionalism (not to mention quality of product) that leaves me with no regrets whatsoever. I have no idea if the diamond I purchased "suffers" from strain, but I also know that the consensus within the diamond community (save one respected professional) allows me to sleep well at night knowing that whatever strain my sweetie's diamond may have, the overwhelming consensus is that it will have no impact on the diamond's durability. I do however know that I purchased an amazing diamond that is stunning to look at and that my sweetie adores, and ultimately that is what's important to me.
My $0.02...
-Tim
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2002
- Messages
- 9,170
Gee, thanks, Tim. Now it's my turn to say.....just let me know where to send the payment. And hey, I'm no cheapskate....I'll take you to the upscale place....the Ground Round!
$.02 cents???? As usual, a novel.....LOLOL.....more like $.25 cents! Great job, Tim.
in response to Optimized and anyone else who is wondering:
Superbcert's stones are welcome by Rockdoc. it is Superbcert who won't send them.
there is no "leap" to conclusions.
Rockdoc is the only appraiser who has a brilliance scope machine.
Every other vendor who regularly posts here is willing to send his diamonds to Rockdoc.
Vendors who inflate their brilliance scope reports is clearly an issue and have been discussed several times in this forum.
Superbcert has chosen to provide no explanation.
Is it such a "leap" to wonder if Superbcert's brilliance scope reports are inflated?
Superbcert's stones are welcome by Rockdoc. it is Superbcert who won't send them.
there is no "leap" to conclusions.
Rockdoc is the only appraiser who has a brilliance scope machine.
Every other vendor who regularly posts here is willing to send his diamonds to Rockdoc.
Vendors who inflate their brilliance scope reports is clearly an issue and have been discussed several times in this forum.
Superbcert has chosen to provide no explanation.
Is it such a "leap" to wonder if Superbcert's brilliance scope reports are inflated?
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2003
- Messages
- 22,146
On 5/21/2003 9:18:25 AM harry wrote:
"Rockdoc is the only appraiser who has a brilliance scope machine.
Vendors who inflate their brilliance scope reports is clearly an issue and have been discussed several times in this forum.
Superbcert has chosen to provide no explanation.
Is it such a "leap" to wonder if Superbcert's brilliance scope reports are inflated?"
________________________________________________________
In my opinion, yes. It is such a leap. Barry would be shocked to hear me saying this since he and I do not always agree, but I think you are leaping to conclusions with no evidence at all.
As has been said here above, any consumer can send his stone to rockdoc after investing in it. If he does not like the Brilliancescope report rockdoc issues he can return it to Barry during the guarantee period.
I, for one, have never sent a stone for appraisal *prior* to purchasing it. I *did* make sure I could return it if I had it checked out and didn't like what I found, however!!!
It is nice that some vendors offer this extra service of sending out stones before they are purchased, but I see nothing sinister in not wanting to do that. I do not believe any of my local jewelers send out stones for appraisal that a consumer has not already bought.
"Rockdoc is the only appraiser who has a brilliance scope machine.
Vendors who inflate their brilliance scope reports is clearly an issue and have been discussed several times in this forum.
Superbcert has chosen to provide no explanation.
Is it such a "leap" to wonder if Superbcert's brilliance scope reports are inflated?"
________________________________________________________
In my opinion, yes. It is such a leap. Barry would be shocked to hear me saying this since he and I do not always agree, but I think you are leaping to conclusions with no evidence at all.
As has been said here above, any consumer can send his stone to rockdoc after investing in it. If he does not like the Brilliancescope report rockdoc issues he can return it to Barry during the guarantee period.
I, for one, have never sent a stone for appraisal *prior* to purchasing it. I *did* make sure I could return it if I had it checked out and didn't like what I found, however!!!
It is nice that some vendors offer this extra service of sending out stones before they are purchased, but I see nothing sinister in not wanting to do that. I do not believe any of my local jewelers send out stones for appraisal that a consumer has not already bought.
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