Spanking Children

[TravelingGal]

Date: 4/26/2010 1:24:30 PM
Author: elrohwen
I grew up with two child psychologist parents who believe that spanking is not ok and I have to say I agree with them.

I believe that all discipline, of children and pets, needs to be done in a calm manner. I do not think it''s possible to hit your kid (that''s what spanking is) in a calm manner. I don''t think it''s possible to teach your kid anything positive by hitting when you are frustrated, even if you think you are calm at the time. I don''t want my future children to ever think it''s ok to hit others.

With that said, I won''t judge a parent who feels that spanking is needed a particular situation. I''m willing to allow that there can be one or two circumstances where spanking may be the best discipline, but as a regular method of disciplining children I don''t think it''s any different than smacking and hitting and is not ok or effective long term.

OK, this is no slam on child psychologists (because I don''t want to insult anyone who is or know someone who is), but I just don''t agree with everything I hear from them these days. Like the ones who say that children''s sports should now be scoreless, and kids should play for fun and not keep score, so there shouldn''t be any losers, because we don''t want kids to feel bad about themselves. I''m like, eh? There are times in life where you win or lose and you should know how to gracefully handle both! But I can''t believe how many of my friends with older kids are now in scoreless sports. That is super weird to me.

I mean, what about time outs? (note again, I''m a believer in them). You taking your misbehaving, upset kid and make them sit in a corner (or in Amelia''s case, a cage). The whole idea is that they are supposed to calm down, get away from the situation and refocus. But maybe what we''re teaching them is that when they behave badly, mommy and daddy don''t love them because they don''t want to be around them (because you''re not supposed to give any positive or negative reinforcement). As I said, TGuy still has issues due to the corner of the room business. His mom thought it would help him calm down and refocus (she didn''t send him to his room because it would be too easy a consequence with stuff to entertain him). Instead, it made him feel humiliated as he felt that everyone else was going on their business and didn''t care about him, or in his sister''s case, laughing at him. Now when he gets in a situation where he''s in "trouble" with me, he''ll stomp out of the room. He had an epiphany one day that it was because he hated standing in the corner of the room when he got in trouble. He just wanted (and still wants) to go away and hide.

So even with "kind" methods like time outs, there still can be issues. In fact, there are some moms on PS who aren''t a fan of time outs either. Boy oh boy, parenting isn''t a perfect science, is it?

 

[elrohwen]

Date: 4/26/2010 1:37:14 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 4/26/2010 1:24:30 PM
Author: elrohwen
I grew up with two child psychologist parents who believe that spanking is not ok and I have to say I agree with them.

OK, this is no slam on child psychologists (because I don't want to insult anyone who is or know someone who is), but I just don't agree with everything I hear from them these days. Like the ones who say that children's sports should now be scoreless, and kids should play for fun and not keep score, so there shouldn't be any losers, because we don't want kids to feel bad about themselves. I'm like, eh? There are times in life where you win or lose and you should know how to gracefully handle both! But I can't believe how many of my friends with older kids are now in scoreless sports. That is super weird to me.

I mean, what about time outs? (note again, I'm a believer in them). You taking your misbehaving, upset kid and make them sit in a corner (or in Amelia's case, a cage). The whole idea is that they are supposed to calm down, get away from the situation and refocus. But maybe what we're teaching them is that when they behave badly, mommy and daddy don't love them because they don't want to be around them (because you're not supposed to give any positive or negative reinforcement). As I said, TGuy still has issues due to the corner of the room business. His mom thought it would help him calm down and refocus (she didn't send him to his room because it would be too easy a consequence with stuff to entertain him). Instead, it made him feel humiliated as he felt that everyone else was going on their business and didn't care about him, or in his sister's case, laughing at him. Now when he gets in a situation where he's in 'trouble' with me, he'll stomp out of the room. He had an epiphany one day that it was because he hated standing in the corner of the room when he got in trouble. He just wanted (and still wants) to go away and hide.

So even with 'kind' methods like time outs, there still can be issues. In fact, there are some moms on PS who aren't a fan of time outs either. Boy oh boy, parenting isn't a perfect science, is it?

TGal, I honestly haven't heard any of these things come from my parents or any other child psychologists that they associate with. I think most of these ideas come from the pop-psychologists who get the airtime on tv, not the ones who are actually effective in teaching parents to discipline and care for their kids. I think it's doing a massive disservice to the effective behavioral psychologists out there to lump them all into this touchy feely camp, even though there are some out there. My mom has seen kids who were in "play therapy" for years - apparently they just sit with the therapist and play the whole time

The parents switched because they saw that this play therapy wasn't helping even after months of sessions. 2-3 sessions with my mom and the kids were behaving excellently. Real behavioral psychology is far different from some of the other branches.

My mom is the queen of time outs and has turned around the bad behavior of many kids with simple behavioral techniques that I think you would totally agree with. And I agree with her that there are enough other disciplinary techniques that spanking is unnecessary for the majority of children and parents (and situations).

When I was younger than 2, my mom told me if I didn't stop doing whatever I was doing that I would have to sit on the dining room chair in a time out. A minute later she didn't know where I was and found me sitting on the chair. That's when she knew I was ready for time outs!

 

[Mara]

Date: 4/26/2010 1:37:14 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 4/26/2010 1:24:30 PM
Author: elrohwen
I grew up with two child psychologist parents who believe that spanking is not ok and I have to say I agree with them.

I believe that all discipline, of children and pets, needs to be done in a calm manner. I do not think it's possible to hit your kid (that's what spanking is) in a calm manner. I don't think it's possible to teach your kid anything positive by hitting when you are frustrated, even if you think you are calm at the time. I don't want my future children to ever think it's ok to hit others.

With that said, I won't judge a parent who feels that spanking is needed a particular situation. I'm willing to allow that there can be one or two circumstances where spanking may be the best discipline, but as a regular method of disciplining children I don't think it's any different than smacking and hitting and is not ok or effective long term.

OK, this is no slam on child psychologists (because I don't want to insult anyone who is or know someone who is), but I just don't agree with everything I hear from them these days. Like the ones who say that children's sports should now be scoreless, and kids should play for fun and not keep score, so there shouldn't be any losers, because we don't want kids to feel bad about themselves. I'm like, eh? There are times in life where you win or lose and you should know how to gracefully handle both! But I can't believe how many of my friends with older kids are now in scoreless sports. That is super weird to me.

I mean, what about time outs? (note again, I'm a believer in them). You taking your misbehaving, upset kid and make them sit in a corner (or in Amelia's case, a cage). The whole idea is that they are supposed to calm down, get away from the situation and refocus. But maybe what we're teaching them is that when they behave badly, mommy and daddy don't love them because they don't want to be around them (because you're not supposed to give any positive or negative reinforcement). As I said, TGuy still has issues due to the corner of the room business. His mom thought it would help him calm down and refocus (she didn't send him to his room because it would be too easy a consequence with stuff to entertain him). Instead, it made him feel humiliated as he felt that everyone else was going on their business and didn't care about him, or in his sister's case, laughing at him. Now when he gets in a situation where he's in 'trouble' with me, he'll stomp out of the room. He had an epiphany one day that it was because he hated standing in the corner of the room when he got in trouble. He just wanted (and still wants) to go away and hide.

So even with 'kind' methods like time outs, there still can be issues. In fact, there are some moms on PS who aren't a fan of time outs either. Boy oh boy, parenting isn't a perfect science, is it?

YUP...huge ditto to the bolded above. Our kid will not be in scoreless sports. Remember that movie Meet the Parents where the hippie dad would frame all the ribbons where he got 'honorable mention' and '10th place'.

We had a corporate 'generational' speaker about a year ago and she mentioned that the generation now is being raised with all these scoreless sports, and events where 'there are no losers'... those kids will have their own unique set of issues to deal with upon entering the work force, and the older generations cannot relate. What about when they submit an idea and it's shot down. How will they respond?

What is RIGHT? Who knows...but I totally agree that losing a soccer game or whatever will help teach the kids how to gracefully lose and that not everyone can be excellent at everything. That's LIFE, it can be cold and hard and I feel like a lot of kids nowadays are just not prepared to deal with things like cutthroat corporate life or similar.

Ditto whoever else said that it also depends on the personality of the child as to what discipline works.

LOL re squirting the water...sometimes I think that we could learn a lot from well-behaved pets.

 

[cara]

Both my parents spanked, and neither's method was a good discipline technique. My father would get *angry*. Even after he stopped hitting us b/c we were too old, he would still get crazy mad on occasion and I was definitely afraid of him. Not in a good way. I don't think it was even the level of hitting involved, though once it was with a belt and that left a mental impression as well as physical, it was really the level of anger involved and the feeling that he was not necessarily in control of himself. Though he must have been at some level, as I don't think it ever got out-of-control in the sense that it was a beating as far as I remember.

My mother was a softie. She would threaten, threaten, threaten to spank and most of the time would never follow through, but those times she would it was so ineffectual that any kid quickly realized it wasn't a real punishment. She didn't feel comfortable hitting her kids, and certainly not with any kind of force. Though she would call on my father for reinforcement regularly, knowing that *he* would spank when he got angry enough...

As to TGal's term of 'healthy fear', I think a lot depends on what exactly that healthy fear is of. That your parent means business and will follow through with X consequence when they say they will? Can apply to all number of discipline techniques. Is mainly a consequence of the parent's consistency, determination, and restraint in terms of only threatening consequences they are prepared to see done, combined with the child's temperament and other experiences. Does 'healthy fear' have to mean fear of physical harm that will come to you at your parent's hand? I'm not sure I want my kids to fear I will inflict physical violence on them.

A big part of my problem with spanking is that I haven't seen many examples of this so-called 'good' spanking discipline method. I can see that any discipline method would be better with less anger and more consistency and follow through. But what is it about the hitting a child that makes it better than other methods? Why is it OK to hit the young/small kids but not the older ones? These aren't just rhetorical questions - I can imagine that once your kid can be reasoned with or talked to that different techniques are available but maybe there are just fewer useful tools in the parenting toolkit at the toddler age - I don't know. Clearly I'm skeptical at some level but I know discipline can be hard and, as TGal points out, even standing in a corner can be humiliating.

I also don't think 'I was spanked and turned out fine' is a good reason to spank your kid. Kids are resilient, and the fact that *plenty* of kids survive something and turn out fine as grown ups doesn't mean its a good idea. Plenty of kids survived the era of no car seats, doesn't mean its a good idea. Maybe that's not the best analogy but I guess the sentiment is right - just cause you survived something and came out OK doesn't mean its a good idea to repeat that experience again on your kids. But if you think its a *good* method of discipline that's different.

 

[elrohwen]

Cara, I totally agree. Thank you for saying it better than I could have!

 

[Puppmom]

Generally speaking, I would say that I disagree with spanking. I have a fairly hot temper and would definitely not be spanking DD for discipline - it would be out of anger so I choose to stay away from it. DD had always been obedient so I''ve never had to question my decision.

My mother had 4 children. She spanked the first two. I was number 3 and my brother was number 4 - we were not spanked. We were not any better or worse behaved than our older siblings. My mother stopped spanking for two reasons - first, my older sisters always beat the crap out of each other and second, the sister just above me would hit back when my mom spanked her. I think both of the previous reactions to her spanking had a lot to do with the fact that my mom spanked out of anger.

PS - Kama - that''s awful - no one should be subject to that kind of environment.

 

[elrohwen]

Mara, I think the issues you brought up are only an issue if you''re getting your child psychology from Oprah and Dr Phil. Legit behavioral psychologists don''t believe any of that stuff.

 

[joflier]

I was only spanked once or twice as a kid, and I don''t think it effected me in any way. It was only my mom who would discipline, and she''d usually try other options first. I think it was appropriately done. When I have children, I suppose I would employ the same type of parenting. I do agree that spanking done in anger is never good. And it''s never good if it''s done regularly. It loses the point. I see it as a last resort option, when nothing else seems to be getting the point across.

One of the times I was spanked, was after not listening to my mother multiple times about riding my bike across the st. without looking for cars. I was probably 7 or 8, and it just wasn''t working. Then she actually witnessed a very close call where I was almost hit by a truck, because I didn''t stop and look. So I got spanked. Point finally hit home. Some things like that, when a child is doing things to put their health/life in danger, I see it as a pretty fair option.

 

[Mara]

Date: 4/26/2010 2:01:27 PM
Author: elrohwen
Mara, I think the issues you brought up are only an issue if you''re getting your child psychology from Oprah and Dr Phil. Legit behavioral psychologists don''t believe any of that stuff.

Actually I wasn''t speaking specifically about child psychologists, just in general that ''idea'' which is prevalent in parenting nowadays.

 

[E B]

Well said, cara!

Paired with what Jas and Elrowhen have said, here's an interesting quote from the article:

"The reason for this may be that spanking sets up a loop of bad behavior. Corporal punishment instills fear rather than understanding. Even if children stop tantrums when spanked, that doesn't mean they get why they shouldn't have been acting up in the first place. What's more, spanking sets a bad example, teaching children that aggressive behavior is a solution to their parents' problems."

At what depth can small children understand an explanation for spanking? Can we assume a two-year-old can fully comprehend the idea that mommy's allowed to spank as a form of punishment, but s/he's not, and why? And furthermore, is it safe to assume that with an explanation, the spanking will have little to no effect on how the child expresses his/her anger in the future? Possibly, but I'm uncomfortable with 'possibly.' It's hard enough to try to reason with a small child, but a small angry or scared child? How effective is it, really?

 

[Lauren8211]

No spanking in my household. Maybe its simply my experiences, but I've never seen anyone hit another person while calm and controlled. We hit because we are angry and frustrated. If you're not angry or frustrated, there's no reason for you to hit. I'm sure spanking doesn't work any better than any other form of discipline, so why inflict the physical pain?

I just don't get it.

ETA: I was not insinuating that its OK to hit when you're angry or frustrated. Its NEVER ok to hit, but anger and frustration seem to be what causes the desire to hit another person.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 4/26/2010 1:51:52 PM
Author: cara
Both my parents spanked, and neither''s method was a good discipline technique. My father would get *angry*. Even after he stopped hitting us b/c we were too old, he would still get crazy mad on occasion and I was definitely afraid of him. Not in a good way. I don''t think it was even the level of hitting involved, though once it was with a belt and that left a mental impression as well as physical, it was really the level of anger involved and the feeling that he was not necessarily in control of himself. Though he must have been at some level, as I don''t think it ever got out-of-control in the sense that it was a beating as far as I remember.

My mother was a softie. She would threaten, threaten, threaten to spank and most of the time would never follow through, but those times she would it was so ineffectual that any kid quickly realized it wasn''t a real punishment. She didn''t feel comfortable hitting her kids, and certainly not with any kind of force. Though she would call on my father for reinforcement regularly, knowing that *he* would spank when he got angry enough...

As to TGal''s term of ''healthy fear'', I think a lot depends on what exactly that healthy fear is of. That your parent means business and will follow through with X consequence when they say they will? Can apply to all number of discipline techniques. Is mainly a consequence of the parent''s consistency, determination, and restraint in terms of only threatening consequences they are prepared to see done, combined with the child''s temperament and other experiences. Does ''healthy fear'' have to mean fear of physical harm that will come to you at your parent''s hand? I''m not sure I want my kids to fear I will inflict physical violence on them.

A big part of my problem with spanking is that I haven''t seen many examples of this so-called ''good'' spanking discipline method. I can see that any discipline method would be better with less anger and more consistency and follow through. But what is it about the hitting a child that makes it better than other methods? Why is it OK to hit the young/small kids but not the older ones? These aren''t just rhetorical questions - I can imagine that once your kid can be reasoned with or talked to that different techniques are available but maybe there are just fewer useful tools in the parenting toolkit at the toddler age - I don''t know. Clearly I''m skeptical at some level but I know discipline can be hard and, as TGal points out, even standing in a corner can be humiliating.

I also don''t think ''I was spanked and turned out fine'' is a good reason to spank your kid. Kids are resilient, and the fact that *plenty* of kids survive something and turn out fine as grown ups doesn''t mean its a good idea. Plenty of kids survived the era of no car seats, doesn''t mean its a good idea. Maybe that''s not the best analogy but I guess the sentiment is right - just cause you survived something and came out OK doesn''t mean its a good idea to repeat that experience again on your kids. But if you think its a *good* method of discipline that''s different.

That''s what I meant by healthy fear, and hence why I said spanking was not necessary to instill it.

And no, I don''t think that analogy works (as I admit, it''s not perfect, but I do get the gist of what you''re getting at). You''re working on the assumption of *survived*. If a kid gets into an accident without a carseat/seatbelt, he''s most likely not going to get way with major injury.
If you are spanked properly, you don''t really have to "survive" it. I do agree that the "turned out fine" isn''t the best reason to spank your kids. A lot of the time, our parents didn''t know much better. In my mom''s case, it WAS cultural AND I was a latch key kid. She really couldn''t use reality based parenting much because she works long hard hours at our store with our dad. She just wasn''t always there. Spanking was immediate, and for me, effective.

I was also spanked when I got older (or else I wouldn''t remember it today). It was still effective. As for why I hit Amelia when she was younger? It got her attention in the situation at hand. She was running up a driveway. I told her no. I tried to pull her away. She got limp legged, jerked, pulled, and ran up and down and flat out defied me because I know she knew something was up by the look she gave me. I used my stern voice, but she was just having a grand ole time in that driveway for whatever reason (it was sloped and wide and I think she had fun running down it) and would not stop. Finally I took her, faced her to me, and swatted her behind. She stopped and looked at me. I then said, "Amelia, no driveway. No run." I pointed, said no again and she refocused enough in that case to listen to me.

If I were at home or had a place that I could have used time out, I would have. But in that case, I wanted to show her immediately that I do not want her to run around like a nutcase in other people''s driveways. Could I have dragged her away screaming and kicking? Probably. But I wanted her to stop and at least listen to what I had to say and the swat got her attention. I don''t know that necessarily "reasoning" with her would have worked, but it was my attempt to do so, I guess.

I don''t think hitting a child is "better" than other methods. But I think there is a time and a place it can be used effectively. I''m also lucky in that my child is a pleaser...I think the mommy is disappointed thing will go a long way with her. There are other children that I''ve seen where I wonder what the heck can be done with them...they are just so...defiant.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 4/26/2010 2:23:53 PM
Author: elledizzy5
No spanking in my household. Maybe its simply my experiences, but I''ve never seen anyone hit another person while calm and controlled. We hit because we are angry and frustrated. If you''re not angry or frustrated, there''s no reason for you to hit. I''m sure spanking doesn''t work any better than any other form of discipline, so why inflict the physical pain?

I just don''t get it.

ETA: I was not insinuating that its OK to hit when you''re angry or frustrated. Its NEVER ok to hit, but anger and frustration seem to be what causes the desire to hit another person.

As I said, most people can''t manage it.

As for the second highlighted point, see my story above. I was neither frustrated or angry. But I did want to get her attention and make a point. I had pulled her toward me, gotten to her level and told her not to run up the driveway. I used my stern voice. I wagged my finger. This was the first time my daughter was actively defiant. I swatted her to get her attention, so I could continue with teaching her that what she was doing was not OK. She''s never run up a driveway since. She also always reaches for my hand several feet before we reach a street to cross.

This is *my* daughter. I''m not saying it will work for other people. But I know myself and I know her. It''s a work in progress and I know I can utilize spanking effectively. And I know that with her, I generally do NOT have to use it.

EB, with everything there is a "possibility", but we make decisions with the hopes of helping our kids become well adjusted adults. Should we only use subdued tones because our children will learn to express unhappiness and frustration by yelling or raised voices? Will timeouts show children that mommy and daddy only love them and want to be with them when they are good?

There are many children who are never hit who strike out and hit and bite when they are angry. These are not things that are only learned from a spanking parent. I think it is human nature to lash out when angry. Which is why, again, I don''t think spanking in anger is very effective. I think it is possible to teach our kids, overall, how to manage anger and frustration - but I''m not there yet, so talk to me in another 3 years.

 

[winelover23]

Date: 4/26/2010 2:23:53 PM
Author: elledizzy5
No spanking in my household. Maybe its simply my experiences, but I''ve never seen anyone hit another person while calm and controlled. We hit because we are angry and frustrated. If you''re not angry or frustrated, there''s no reason for you to hit. I''m sure spanking doesn''t work any better than any other form of discipline, so why inflict the physical pain?

I just don''t get it.

ETA: I was not insinuating that its OK to hit when you''re angry or frustrated. Its NEVER ok to hit, but anger and frustration seem to be what causes the desire to hit another person.

Ding ding ding! Having a very stubborn 4 year old I agree w/ this whole heartedly.

 

[cara]

TGal, thanks for your more detailed example. I think that adds a lot of... nuance. Actually I can remember one more reasonable use of spanking from my upbringing. My little brother, not in a car seat but still pretty small and not old enough for much in the way of logical thinking, opened the car door while we were driving. Of course he's small so opening the door means he is halfway out the car. My dad grabs his nearby arm, pulls him back in shutting the door in the process. Spanks him, while still driving. This time, I think my father was mainly scared, not angry, and obviously never wanted my brother doing that again. Doesn't matter why but if spanking will keep the kid from opening the door of a moving car that's probably a judicious use. I can see time out, other consequences, are either not-immediate or not attention-grabbing enough for the circumstances. Of course, keeping your kid properly strapped in to their modern-era car seat or other confinement device until they are 12 or whatever is the new legal limit would probably help on this specific example, but that was a different era!

 

[E B]

Date: 4/26/2010 2:39:17 PM
Author: TravelingGal

EB, with everything there is a ''possibility'', but we make decisions with the hopes of helping our kids become well adjusted adults. Should we only use subdued tones because our children will learn to express unhappiness and frustration by yelling or raised voices? Will timeouts show children that mommy and daddy only love them and want to be with them when they are good?

I completely agree. However, I wasn''t speaking about all forms of punishment. Spanking is a completely different animal, because as discussed before, it''s something parents don''t want to see their children repeat when angry. So how, exactly, can this be explained to a child? To a toddler? And is it *actually* effective? That what I was asking, though not very clearly.

 

[Allison D.]

Again, not a parent, so take my theorum with a huge grain of salt.

By whatever means it takes, I think they key message for kids is ''actions have consequences''. Sometimes those are good consequences: Study=excel on exam/praise from parent/attain good grade, or do weekly chores=earn allowance. Sometimes they are bad consequences: unruly behavior=time out/loss of privilege, or defiance/lying=spanking or loss of privilege.

Like Mara, I''m not a fan of the ''scoreless sports''. You can praise a child''s efforts even as you share his disappointment that another child won; this is an *important* life lesson. It''s also important to understand that oftentimes, efforts is linked to results. It helps in goalsetting and attaining achievements, i.e. earning a diploma, degree, etc. It''s not enough just to show up at school and go through the motions; you have to work to earn the grade.

Growing up in my house, my parents'' collective take on parenting was "it''s our job to prepare you for what you''ll encounter in life when you grow up". That was their foundation. I learned that I couldn''t mistreat others because there would be consequences. I learned that there were expectations placed on my behavior, and consequences (good and bad) associated with how I did (or didn''t) meet those expectations. I was spanked, but seldom needed it sheerly because I knew my parents would act if need. More than anything, I understood that they were consistent, so I knew exactly what to expect and that by itself deterred much unwanted behavior.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 4/26/2010 3:00:09 PM
Author: E B

Date: 4/26/2010 2:39:17 PM
Author: TravelingGal

EB, with everything there is a ''possibility'', but we make decisions with the hopes of helping our kids become well adjusted adults. Should we only use subdued tones because our children will learn to express unhappiness and frustration by yelling or raised voices? Will timeouts show children that mommy and daddy only love them and want to be with them when they are good?

I completely agree. However, I wasn''t speaking about all forms of punishment. Spanking is a completely different animal, because as discussed before, it''s something parents don''t want to see their children repeat when angry. So how, exactly, can this be explained to a child? To a toddler? And is it *actually* effective? That what I was asking, though not very clearly.

My point is, how do we know if anything is effective and if it won''t have consequences later? I wouldn''t want my kid to shove kids in the corner when the kid is acting bad or my kid is frustrated at them either, so how do I explain time outs?

I guess for me personally, I would say I can''t say how it can be explained. I only know that my brother and I did not make a connection that it was "OK" to hit another person because my parents hit me. I''m not saying I never hit my brother (but I can say my brother never hit me until one day he decided to show me he was no longer my little pipsqueak brother) but I really don''t think I did it because my mom spanked me. But who''s to say? And if so, why did my brother never raise a finger to me or anyone else, when he was also spanked? I think I hit my brother because it''s sort of innate for kids to want to hit other kids. But that''s my opinion. I mean, there are pics of us as very young toddlers (before my mother really spanked me, I think) brawling it out on a wrestling match on the floor. Or, it could be possible that my mother screwed me, who knows.

So I say, if people are scared of the "possibly", that''s fine, don''t spank your kids. I''m OK with saying that spanking *may* generally lead to more aggressive kids (because I believe most people don''t spank correctly). I''m fine that a lot of people don''t see the point in it, or how to use it effectively. What I don''t agree with is that there is "never" a reason to spank your child, because it WILL teach your kids that violence is OK. That is what I don''t agree with.

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 4/26/2010 3:13:33 PM
Author: TravelingGal

So I say, if people are scared of the 'possibly', that's fine, don't spank your kids. I'm OK with saying that spanking *may* generally lead to more aggressive kids (because I believe most people don't spank correctly). I'm fine that a lot of people don't see the point in it, or how to use it effectively. What I don't agree with is that there is 'never' a reason to spank your child, because it WILL teach your kids that violence is OK. That is what I don't agree with.

I have to agree here.

Spanking isn't about violence; done properly, it's about correction/consequence that speaks to authority.

Children understand that not every other human is necessarily an authority figure to them; they know that other children are their peers. That's why I don't think that spanking teaches a kid that hitting other kids is ok, or that time-outs teach a child it's ok to shove other kids into corners out of frustration.

When I was spanked, it was never done in the heat of anger. It was fully explained to me what behavior I engaged in that was unacceptable, and that the spanking was a consequence of that behavior. I was sent to my room for ten minutes to think about why I was receiving the consequence before the spanking occurred.

I was also always told with every correction "I love you, but I don't love naughty things you do." (i.e. hitting, being fresh, etc.) Post-spanking, I was told what the expectation was going forward (no lying, no whatever), and I was hugged and told that I was loved.

Needless to say, the fact that I knew there would be a consequence often deterred me from needing the correction at all, so I wasn't spanked very often.

 

[E B]

Date: 4/26/2010 3:13:33 PM
Author: TravelingGal
My point is, how do we know if anything is effective and if it won''t have consequences later?

I see, and I agree. It''s hard to know what will have a lasting impression.

 

[swingirl]

Date: 4/26/2010 3:34:18 PM
Author: Allison D.
I was also always told with every correction ''I love you, but I don''t love naughty things you do.'' (i.e. hitting, being fresh, etc.) Post-spanking, I was told what the expectation was going forward (no lying, no whatever), and I was hugged and told that I was loved.

I find it interesting that you were spanked for hitting. I never spanked my kids nor was I spanked. I never had to punish my kids for hitting. I guess they learned by my example that, "we don''t hit."

 

[Hest88]

Date: 4/26/2010 3:34:18 PM
Author: Allison D.

Children understand that not every other human is necessarily an authority figure to them; they know that other children are their peers. That''s why I don''t think that spanking teaches a kid that hitting other kids is ok, or that time-outs teach a child it''s ok to shove other kids into corners out of frustration.

But mom! That policeman handcuffs people! Why can''t I?

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

I'm firmly in the no camp.

My parents both used violence as a discipline tool - my mother in the heat of temper and my father calmly, with explanation and declarations of great love and affection.
I dislike both of them for this. I do not respect them, I do not care to be in their company and I will never, ever leave my child with them.

I certainly did fear them as a child. They taught me to cut them out emotionally, to keep them at a distance and to make sure they did not know what I was doing. I became a secretive, wilfully disobedient child from a remarkable early age. I also lied to them most days. I made a point of only giving misinformation about my life on everything from the most trivial detail. It became a habit from about age 10. I didn't trust them and I didn't like them. I left home when I turned 16 (very much against their wishes).

When I was about 13, I think, my mother went at me and I picked up the nearest thing I could find (a broom) and got in one lucky swipe that knocked her front teeth out. Can't say I'm sorry - that's what she taught me. If someone is doing something you don't like, hit them.

So no, I won't be hitting my daughter. The idea makes me physically sick. I feel nauseous and shaky typing this, so I'll leave it alone now.

 

[Laila619]

From my experience babysitting, the ironic thing is that some of the kids who come from parents who refuse to spank are some of the most aggressive kids...biting, hitting, etc.

So I don't necessarily buy that spanking a kid = teaching them to hit. Lack of discipline is usually why kids hit other kids--because they can get away with it and know there aren't any consequences at home.

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 4/26/2010 3:44:06 PM
Author: swingirl

Date: 4/26/2010 3:34:18 PM
Author: Allison D.
I was also always told with every correction 'I love you, but I don't love naughty things you do.' (i.e. hitting, being fresh, etc.) Post-spanking, I was told what the expectation was going forward (no lying, no whatever), and I was hugged and told that I was loved.

I find it interesting that you were spanked for hitting. I never spanked my kids nor was I spanked. I never had to punish my kids for hitting. I guess they learned by my example that, 'we don't hit.'

For clarity's sake, I wasn't spanked for hitting. You are right that I should have been clearer on what I meant by correction. (I actually wasn't a hitter, so I didn't need correction on that; my point was only to list behaviors that might be unacceptable.)

In my house, spanking was but one form of correction, and it was usually reserved for the most extreme things - it was "mortal sin" kind of offenses. Correction was often directly proportional to the offense, so something it was a stern NO; sometimes, it was being sent to my room, and other times it was other things. As I noted, spanking didn't occur much in my house; it didn't have to. I don't even know that I could point to 5 times I was spanked.

For what it's worth, though, I did understand the difference between hitting and spanking even as a child, and I believe most children are also fully able to make that distinction. They do it all the time; most understand the difference between saying "no thank you" and "NOOOOOOOOOOO, I don't WAAAAAAAAAANT it." Most understand the difference between talking and screaming.

I know many kids who do hit whose parents don't spank, so I don't agree that the 'lead by example' thing applies as an all-or-nothing proposition. As Mara & T-gal pointed out, kids who are corrected with timeouts don't 'learn by example' that it's ok to shove others into corners when they dislike their behavior, so I don't believe it's as black and white as some would like to portray it.

Still, I'm delighted for you that 1) your kids have never hit, and 2) you've found a parenting style that works comfortable for you.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 4/26/2010 4:11:44 PM
Author: Mrs Mitchell
I''m firmly in the no camp.

My parents both used violence as a discipline tool - my mother in the heat of temper and my father calmly, with explanation and declarations of great love and affection.
I dislike both of them for this. I do not respect them, I do not care to be in their company and I will never, ever leave my child with them.

I certainly did fear them as a child. They taught me to cut them out emotionally, to keep them at a distance and to make sure they did not know what I was doing. I became a secretive, wilfully disobedient child from a remarkable early age. I also lied to them most days. I made a point of only giving misinformation about my life on everything from the most trivial detail. It became a habit from about age 10. I didn''t trust them and I didn''t like them. I left home when I turned 16 (very much against their wishes).

When I was about 13, I think, my mother went at me and I picked up the nearest thing I could find (a broom) and got in one lucky swipe that knocked her front teeth out. Can''t say I''m sorry - that''s what she taught me. If someone is doing something you don''t like, hit them.

So no, I won''t be hitting my daughter. The idea makes me physically sick. I feel nauseous and shaky typing this, so I''ll leave it alone now.

I''m so sorry to hear this MrsM. For what it''s worth, it does sound you came out of it with an amazing sense of humor, for what little I know about you.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 4/26/2010 4:11:44 PM
Author: Mrs Mitchell
I''m firmly in the no camp.

My parents both used violence as a discipline tool - my mother in the heat of temper and my father calmly, with explanation and declarations of great love and affection.
I dislike both of them for this. I do not respect them, I do not care to be in their company and I will never, ever leave my child with them.

I certainly did fear them as a child. They taught me to cut them out emotionally, to keep them at a distance and to make sure they did not know what I was doing. I became a secretive, wilfully disobedient child from a remarkable early age. I also lied to them most days. I made a point of only giving misinformation about my life on everything from the most trivial detail. It became a habit from about age 10. I didn''t trust them and I didn''t like them. I left home when I turned 16 (very much against their wishes).

When I was about 13, I think, my mother went at me and I picked up the nearest thing I could find (a broom) and got in one lucky swipe that knocked her front teeth out. Can''t say I''m sorry - that''s what she taught me. If someone is doing something you don''t like, hit them.

So no, I won''t be hitting my daughter. The idea makes me physically sick. I feel nauseous and shaky typing this, so I''ll leave it alone now.

My situation was similar to Mrs. Mitchell''s, and I totally agree with the highlighted part.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 4/26/2010 3:44:06 PM
Author: swingirl

Date: 4/26/2010 3:34:18 PM
Author: Allison D.
I was also always told with every correction ''I love you, but I don''t love naughty things you do.'' (i.e. hitting, being fresh, etc.) Post-spanking, I was told what the expectation was going forward (no lying, no whatever), and I was hugged and told that I was loved.

I find it interesting that you were spanked for hitting. I never spanked my kids nor was I spanked. I never had to punish my kids for hitting. I guess they learned by my example that, ''we don''t hit.''

I am the only one of my friends who doesn''t spank my child, and incidentally, my child is the only one who doesn''t hit. One of my friends is always talking about the "right" way that they spank their two kids to get their attention, and not only are their kids always physically attacking each other, but they also hit their friends all the time. The son has been kicked out of playgrounds for his aggressive behavior. I guess that if you''re taught that hitting is OK, when your parents hit you, then you think it''s fine to hit others.

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

Date: 4/26/2010 4:54:59 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 4/26/2010 4:11:44 PM
Author: Mrs Mitchell
I''m firmly in the no camp.

My parents both used violence as a discipline tool - my mother in the heat of temper and my father calmly, with explanation and declarations of great love and affection.
I dislike both of them for this. I do not respect them, I do not care to be in their company and I will never, ever leave my child with them.

I certainly did fear them as a child. They taught me to cut them out emotionally, to keep them at a distance and to make sure they did not know what I was doing. I became a secretive, wilfully disobedient child from a remarkable early age. I also lied to them most days. I made a point of only giving misinformation about my life on everything from the most trivial detail. It became a habit from about age 10. I didn''t trust them and I didn''t like them. I left home when I turned 16 (very much against their wishes).

When I was about 13, I think, my mother went at me and I picked up the nearest thing I could find (a broom) and got in one lucky swipe that knocked her front teeth out. Can''t say I''m sorry - that''s what she taught me. If someone is doing something you don''t like, hit them.

So no, I won''t be hitting my daughter. The idea makes me physically sick. I feel nauseous and shaky typing this, so I''ll leave it alone now.

I''m so sorry to hear this MrsM. For what it''s worth, it does sound you came out of it with an amazing sense of humor, for what little I know about you.

My mother doesn''t like my sense of humour. I get her denture tablets as a gift when she really annoys me...

Kidding, kidding, I don''t think that''s one either of us would ever really laugh about. I did survive pretty well, I think, but I don''t want my baby to survive my parenting, I want her to thrive because of it. Something you said elsewhere really resonated with me - something about Amelia being with us for a short time, and wanting to make it good for her. I''m paraphrasing, because I can''t remember the exact words, but the sentiment struck a chord. Plus, I don''t even have to change the name...

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

Date: 4/26/2010 5:04:00 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 4/26/2010 4:11:44 PM
Author: Mrs Mitchell
I''m firmly in the no camp.

My parents both used violence as a discipline tool - my mother in the heat of temper and my father calmly, with explanation and declarations of great love and affection.
I dislike both of them for this. I do not respect them, I do not care to be in their company and I will never, ever leave my child with them.

I certainly did fear them as a child. They taught me to cut them out emotionally, to keep them at a distance and to make sure they did not know what I was doing. I became a secretive, wilfully disobedient child from a remarkable early age. I also lied to them most days. I made a point of only giving misinformation about my life on everything from the most trivial detail. It became a habit from about age 10. I didn''t trust them and I didn''t like them. I left home when I turned 16 (very much against their wishes).

When I was about 13, I think, my mother went at me and I picked up the nearest thing I could find (a broom) and got in one lucky swipe that knocked her front teeth out. Can''t say I''m sorry - that''s what she taught me. If someone is doing something you don''t like, hit them.

So no, I won''t be hitting my daughter. The idea makes me physically sick. I feel nauseous and shaky typing this, so I''ll leave it alone now.

My situation was similar to Mrs. Mitchell''s, and I totally agree with the highlighted part.

I think I''ve asked this before, but did we have the same parents?!

I didn''t notice a sibling at the time, but I was pretty busy plotting Operation Orphan...