Somebody Please Explain This To Me

[iLander]

So, as I read through this, it seems that some women think it's fun and they want to be sexy. That's fine, I get that.

I am wondering something though; could it also be a societal function of the reduced crime rate in the U.S.? I think some of us older (Not OLD, just older than you girlies ) ladies remember the bad old days when sexual assault was more common and a man ogling was a threat. not a compliment. The bad old days included juries that thought a rape victim was "asking for it" by how she dressed. I am SO GLAD that those days seemed to have passed.

But I think those days still color my way of dressing, and I wouldn't feel comfortable with the girls on display. Not that it would be much of a show . . .

Oh, and that sales lady I mentioned earlier, the one everyone wanted to sit with since her girls were out? She didn't suddenly become charming and funny, she has been with the co. for many years, and no one really paid any attention before the "discount shirt". I think she lost a LOT of credibility with the women in the company, though. She may have trouble getting things done, stuff that female admins and coordinators will need to work on for her. I don't think she did herself a service AT ALL.

As for teens with "discount shirts' I still think that is inappropriate. My DD does have friends that show them off, but those girls are considered to be not very . . . well . . . "nice". The girl with the lowest cuts has all sorts of sexual and drug issues, and her parents don't care what she's doing or whom she's with at any time. My DD finally stopped talking to her after the third pregnancy scare, the last one with a married man. So I'm not sure it's just a fashion for all of them yet, at least not in our town.

But to sum it all up FOR ME personally (NOT any other posters): I'm pretty sure I'm just jealous. And I might also be repressed. . .

 

[rhbgirl24]

I wear a lot of V neck or scoop neck shirts and its not really to show cleavage, but because things around my neck bother me. I only have a B cup, so not too much cleavage there anyway, but when I do show some its never in the workplace, but always out for the night or something.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Well, I did some research last night and apparently the French Revolution was actually promted by the exposure of Marie Antoinette's cleavage. Some say that is what resulted in her one-way trip to the guillotine.

 

[Selkie]

Oh, and that sales lady I mentioned earlier, the one everyone wanted to sit with since her girls were out? She didn't suddenly become charming and funny, she has been with the co. for many years, and no one really paid any attention before the "discount shirt". I think she lost a LOT of credibility with the women in the company, though. She may have trouble getting things done, stuff that female admins and coordinators will need to work on for her. I don't think she did herself a service AT ALL.

Really? So she's been around for many years, has probably proven herself to be capable at her job, and all of a sudden, because she made one questionable clothing choice, and received attention from a few men, no other woman will treat her with the respect she deserves (theoretically, since I don't actually know anything about her work ethic and competency)? Now THAT is judgmental and anti-feminist.

 

[princesss]

Oh, and that sales lady I mentioned earlier, the one everyone wanted to sit with since her girls were out? She didn't suddenly become charming and funny, she has been with the co. for many years, and no one really paid any attention before the "discount shirt". I think she lost a LOT of credibility with the women in the company, though. She may have trouble getting things done, stuff that female admins and coordinators will need to work on for her. I don't think she did herself a service AT ALL.

Really? So she's been around for many years, has probably proven herself to be capable at her job, and all of a sudden, because she made one questionable clothing choice, and received attention from a few men, no other woman will treat her with the respect she deserves (theoretically, since I don't actually know anything about her work ethic and competency)? Now THAT is judgmental and anti-feminist.

Agreed.

I wish we could stop getting so hung up on what other people are doing/wearing/saying. I'll be the first to admit I look askance at women that show too much leg in the office, but it doesn't change my view of how they do their job. Incompetence is incompetence, whether in a twin set or a cocktail dress, and a woman capable of doing her job can do it in any outfit. I do think there are limits to what should be worn at work, for men as well as women, but for your free time? Who cares? This whole topic just seems like one more way for women to bash each other and point out the things other women do wrong.

 

[somethingshiny]

Ditto Selkie.

I'm not trying to put you on the spot iLander, but you say that she's "lost a LOT of respect." That indicates she HAD a lot of respect. For one possibly questionable outfit, the women you work with are willing to slam her for it? That sounds like a horrid place to work.

 

[FrekeChild]

Hmmmm....I'm sure DF has thought about me at least once while reading this topic.

Boobs. Cleavage. Whatever.

I am 5'2. I have been this height since the ripe old age of 12.

At 16 I was a 32DD.

At 21 I was a 32GG.

At 21 I had a breast reduction. They removed over 7 pounds of tissue. That's about the same size as a newborn.

Now at almost 29 I am a 34DD.

My cleavage is a hand's width from my collar bone when I am wearing a non-push up, non-padded bra. I hate to even imagine how many fingers were between my cleavage and my collar bone when I was 21.

I wear what I want to. People can ogle my chest, people can ignore it. It doesn't matter one bit to me. But when I was 21 I'd joke that I had cleavage in a turtleneck--and really it wasn't that far from the truth. I am short and they were huge. Even now my chest is still on the larger (rather than enormous) size and I have trouble finding clothes that:

- are flattering
- cover up my chest

I have the buy large shirts because of the sheer volume of the ladies, but larges look ridiculous on me because of my height. Not to mention the neck hole is proportionately larger in a larger size shirt. Which leads to cleavage showing.

Where does that leave me? Up $#!+ creek. And revealing my boobies. Whether I want to or not.

Also, for the record, my necklaces are all on 16 inch chains so that that bit of sparkle is around the collarbone. My 18 inch chains dangle into my cleavage.

 

[AGBF]

Well, I did some research last night and apparently the French Revolution was actually promted by the exposure of Marie Antoinette's cleavage. Some say that is what resulted in her one-way trip to the guillotine.

Yes, I am sure that was the problem.

Deb

 

[MichelleCarmen]

...

 

[princesss]

...

Revolting!

 

[ForteKitty]

that doesn't look all that low to me! (yea yea i know it's a painting!) kinda like kiera knightly in pirates.. there's only so much you can do w/ small boobs.

 

[ForteKitty]

...

Revolting!

hahahaha!

 

[KittyGolightly]

The old lawyer says that showing cleavage in Court is just wrong.

A couple of years ago, I was a juror for a prostitution case. The defense attorney was a very beautiful, tall, thin blond woman in her early 30s, but she was dressed like a character on Ally McBeal - mini-skirt, cleavage-showing shirt, stilleto heels, bright red lipstick.

The jury took about 5 minutes to come up with a not guilty verdcit, so conversation turned pretty quickly to the attorney's outfit. The women felt that she was dressed inappropriately, but the guys felt that she was dressed professionally. I think if I were in her client's shoes, I'd want my lawyer dressed like a nun.

She was a good lawyer, and she would have won her case no matter how she was dressed. IMO, it was too bad that her outfit became a topic of conversation, but maybe she didn't mind. She was certainly memorable.

 

[qtiekiki]

I also don't notice cleavage everywhere. Cleavage only bothers me in inappropriate settings, ie. work, makes me go "umm. Really?". But you know what, people who look at your chest will look with or without cleavage showing. At least that what I had noticed.

And to answer the question on if I wear discount tops, I do sometimes. I buy tops not because it shows cleavage but because I look nice in them. So if I look nice in a cleavage showing top, then so be it. I don't even think about the cleavage.

I had been through cup B to DD due to pregnancies and nursing, and I much prefer the B. It's much easier to find well-fitting clothes. I am glad I am back to a B.

 

[Circe]

I was thinking about this topic today, and, as it happens, I went swimsuit shopping. Guess what? I'm up 2 sizes. Without gaining any weight, I skipped go, did not collect $200, and went directly to F, on a 32 band size. I will now have even more fun trying to find things that don't make me look like a **** star during business hours(not that I have anything against **** stars - more that impersonating one on a college campus would be awkward). In my off-time? I wear the pretty shiny vintage-y things that make me happy, and that do not cost me an arm and a leg.

Look, I have safety pins. Double-sided tape. Dickeys. A collection of fetching scarves, necklaces, and bits of lace. And, at the end of the day, you know what? It doesn't matter. Like Jessica Rabbit, I'm not bad: I'm just drawn that way. And, with the passage of the years, I've sort of grown to accept it.

I'm a body-positive HAES feminist. I do not believe that a woman's dress is any excuse to assault her, any reason to disrespect her, or any cause to demean her. I think that the people who engage in such activities? Are saying a lot more about themselves than they are about the women in question, be their clothing 30, 60, 0r 90% off.

(By the way: try finding attractive professional clothing for women with hourglass figures these days. I dare you. I double dog dare you. And I can tell you off the bat, your best bet will be - of all places - Brooks Brothers, where I got my interview suit for just under 1K. If you're on a budget, and/or just can't spend that every single day? You, too, will have to invest in double-sided tape and a good tailor. Or, you know, dress unattractively and take what some people call the Dog Tax ... or come to terms with your body. Your choice.)

You know what actually fills my heart with glee? Seeing my young female students wearing clothes that flatter them. I look at those girls, in their micro-minis and their v-necks, with their brilliant insights and their rapier wit, and I think, how wonderful! You are confident in yourselves all the way through, without any of this nonsensical bodily shame. Good on you! One of these days, I'll get to the same exact point. Till then, I have my dickeys.

 

[Circe]

Oh, P.S. - why do you see more cleavage these days? Don't blame individual women. Blame the fashion industry, which has shifted more and more towards catering to the male gaze. Women buy what happens to be in the stores.

 

[princesss]

(By the way: try finding attractive professional clothing for women with hourglass figures these days. I dare you. I double dog dare you. And I can tell you off the bat, your best bet will be - of all places - Brooks Brothers, where I got my interview suit for just under 1K. If you're on a budget, and/or just can't spend that every single day? You, too, will have to invest in double-sided tape and a good tailor. Or, you know, dress unattractively and take what some people call the Dog Tax ... or come to terms with your body. Your choice.)

YES! I can't believe how hard it is to find flattering business attire. Almost nobody (and definitely nobody affordable) is designing with a curvy figure in mind. It is infuriating.

 

[Cehrabehra]

So, as I read through this, it seems that some women think it's fun and they want to be sexy. That's fine, I get that.

I am wondering something though; could it also be a societal function of the reduced crime rate in the U.S.? I think some of us older (Not OLD, just older than you girlies ) ladies remember the bad old days when sexual assault was more common and a man ogling was a threat. not a compliment. The bad old days included juries that thought a rape victim was "asking for it" by how she dressed. I am SO GLAD that those days seemed to have passed.

But I think those days still color my way of dressing, and I wouldn't feel comfortable with the girls on display. Not that it would be much of a show . . .

Oh, and that sales lady I mentioned earlier, the one everyone wanted to sit with since her girls were out? She didn't suddenly become charming and funny, she has been with the co. for many years, and no one really paid any attention before the "discount shirt". I think she lost a LOT of credibility with the women in the company, though. She may have trouble getting things done, stuff that female admins and coordinators will need to work on for her. I don't think she did herself a service AT ALL.

As for teens with "discount shirts' I still think that is inappropriate. My DD does have friends that show them off, but those girls are considered to be not very . . . well . . . "nice". The girl with the lowest cuts has all sorts of sexual and drug issues, and her parents don't care what she's doing or whom she's with at any time. My DD finally stopped talking to her after the third pregnancy scare, the last one with a married man. So I'm not sure it's just a fashion for all of them yet, at least not in our town.

But to sum it all up FOR ME personally (NOT any other posters): I'm pretty sure I'm just jealous. And I might also be repressed. . .

I appreciate your self-deprecating sense of humor there at the end... because most of what you say comes off as offensive, to be honest. Everyone is entitled to make these choices for themselves and I know you know that, but judging other people's choices just doesn't come off very well. Reminding us that there was a time when we accused women of deserving rape and abuse because of how they dressed does nothing positive. The thinking at that time was wrong. In the case of a drug taking emotionally dysfunctional teenager, perhaps the cleavage really has nothing to do with it at all.

 

[iLander]

So, as I read through this, it seems that some women think it's fun and they want to be sexy. That's fine, I get that.

I am wondering something though; could it also be a societal function of the reduced crime rate in the U.S.? I think some of us older (Not OLD, just older than you girlies ) ladies remember the bad old days when sexual assault was more common and a man ogling was a threat. not a compliment. The bad old days included juries that thought a rape victim was "asking for it" by how she dressed. I am SO GLAD that those days seemed to have passed.

But I think those days still color my way of dressing, and I wouldn't feel comfortable with the girls on display. Not that it would be much of a show . . .

Oh, and that sales lady I mentioned earlier, the one everyone wanted to sit with since her girls were out? She didn't suddenly become charming and funny, she has been with the co. for many years, and no one really paid any attention before the "discount shirt". I think she lost a LOT of credibility with the women in the company, though. She may have trouble getting things done, stuff that female admins and coordinators will need to work on for her. I don't think she did herself a service AT ALL.

As for teens with "discount shirts' I still think that is inappropriate. My DD does have friends that show them off, but those girls are considered to be not very . . . well . . . "nice". The girl with the lowest cuts has all sorts of sexual and drug issues, and her parents don't care what she's doing or whom she's with at any time. My DD finally stopped talking to her after the third pregnancy scare, the last one with a married man. So I'm not sure it's just a fashion for all of them yet, at least not in our town.

But to sum it all up FOR ME personally (NOT any other posters): I'm pretty sure I'm just jealous. And I might also be repressed. . .

I appreciate your self-deprecating sense of humor there at the end... because most of what you say comes off as offensive, to be honest. Everyone is entitled to make these choices for themselves and I know you know that, but judging other people's choices just doesn't come off very well. Reminding us that there was a time when we accused women of deserving rape and abuse because of how they dressed does nothing positive. The thinking at that time was wrong. In the case of a drug taking emotionally dysfunctional teenager, perhaps the cleavage really has nothing to do with it at all.

Well, definitely not trying to be offensive! I was working through why my own feelings about cleavage are different then others'. The bad old days, because I went through them during my teen years (early '70's) affected me. The media reported on these stories quite a lot, and I believe women were repressed by them whether they realized it or not. I know I was, anyway. I tried to communicate that I am glad that those days are over, which I thought implied that they were wrong.

As for the teen, her cleavage (FOR HER not anyone else) is a symptom of her promiscuity and her promiscuity is a symptom of many other issues. I think there is a whole mess there, of which the cleavage is the least of it.

But because I am judging the teen for what I feel is inappropriate behavior, it does not mean I am judging anyone else. That would be silly of me. I DO NOT think the actions of 1 teen reflects on the actions of all women, of all ages, throughout the world.

 

[iLander]

Oh, and that sales lady I mentioned earlier, the one everyone wanted to sit with since her girls were out? She didn't suddenly become charming and funny, she has been with the co. for many years, and no one really paid any attention before the "discount shirt". I think she lost a LOT of credibility with the women in the company, though. She may have trouble getting things done, stuff that female admins and coordinators will need to work on for her. I don't think she did herself a service AT ALL.

Really? So she's been around for many years, has probably proven herself to be capable at her job, and all of a sudden, because she made one questionable clothing choice, and received attention from a few men, no other woman will treat her with the respect she deserves (theoretically, since I don't actually know anything about her work ethic and competency)? Now THAT is judgmental and anti-feminist.

Just an FYI- I don't actually work at the company. I am just a vendor to the company. I am reporting on the catty gossip storm that was flying around. I've seen admins turn on people before, at this very political company, and it wasn't pretty. Not saying it's right. Just reporting.

 

[iLander]

Oh, and that sales lady I mentioned earlier, the one everyone wanted to sit with since her girls were out? She didn't suddenly become charming and funny, she has been with the co. for many years, and no one really paid any attention before the "discount shirt". I think she lost a LOT of credibility with the women in the company, though. She may have trouble getting things done, stuff that female admins and coordinators will need to work on for her. I don't think she did herself a service AT ALL.

Really? So she's been around for many years, has probably proven herself to be capable at her job, and all of a sudden, because she made one questionable clothing choice, and received attention from a few men, no other woman will treat her with the respect she deserves (theoretically, since I don't actually know anything about her work ethic and competency)? Now THAT is judgmental and anti-feminist.

Agreed.

I wish we could stop getting so hung up on what other people are doing/wearing/saying. I'll be the first to admit I look askance at women that show too much leg in the office, but it doesn't change my view of how they do their job. Incompetence is incompetence, whether in a twin set or a cocktail dress, and a woman capable of doing her job can do it in any outfit. I do think there are limits to what should be worn at work, for men as well as women, but for your free time? Who cares? This whole topic just seems like one more way for women to bash each other and point out the things other women do wrong.

I don't see that in this topic, actually. I think we seem to be freely exchanging our opinions, and I didn't really see any bashing. I am telling the story of the sales lady because I think it shows that other women look at askance (as you do, in the above post). Those PARTICULAR ladies are mad. It's not my opinon and I don't agree, but I am reporting on it.

 

[iLander]

Ditto Selkie.

I'm not trying to put you on the spot iLander, but you say that she's "lost a LOT of respect." That indicates she HAD a lot of respect. For one possibly questionable outfit, the women you work with are willing to slam her for it? That sounds like a horrid place to work.

Again, I don't work there. I was a bystander and I'm self employed. I am not contributing to the slamming, but I heard the backlash in various ladies' conversations. And yes, it is an EXTREMELY political company and it doesn't take much to upset people there. They are all looking for ways to stab people in the back there. I am guessing at how they will treat her, but I have seen them freeze out people before. I'm NOT saying I agree with it.

 

[iLander]

...

As long as we're on Marie Antoinette, I read some where that she encouraged the peasants come into the castle and watch her eat. I don't think the sight of her munching down piles of goodies, while they were starving, helped her any.

 

[ksinger]

...

As long as we're on Marie Antoinette, I read some where that she encouraged the peasants come into the castle and watch her eat. I don't think the sight of her munching down piles of goodies, while they were starving, helped her any.

Well I read that there was ultimately never any evidence that she did any of the outrageous things she was constantly accused of, the worst of which was having an incestuous relationship with her son. I seriously doubt any of the accusations leveled against her were true, and if they do contain any kernal of truth I'm sure it was long ago overtaken by propaganda and exaggeration. I'm not all that familiar with her history, but given the politics and mores of the time, she was likely simply a convenient target and rallying point for the general ire against the monarchy. Trumping up stories and spreading outrageous and salacious rumors was and IS a stock political weapon, I see no reason to think she was not the target of that very thing. She was a foreigner too, which didn't help.

 

[partgypsy]

I wanted to point out something about fashion in general, but not cleavage in particular. I am not a "fashion plate".
I like land's end type clothes, usually wear alot of chinos and twinset sweaters or blouses with short sleeve tops underneath, all on the looser side. I got a gift certificate to a boutique, and I do want to somehow update my very boring wardrobe. I tried practically everything on in the store. I'm 5'6", 125 lbs and in decent shape. But the salesperson kept correcting me giving me a smaller size saying that was my size, so when I wore it it would be really form fitting. But I felt uncomfortable wearing something that seemed to me left nothing to the imagination. I didn't go in with a girlfriend to get another perspective so I can't tell if my calibration is off or the saleslady. Is it the fashion of wearing clothes that literally stick to the skin? These were tops, pants (jeggings) and dresses. Or maybe it's just too late to try to get into fashion at this point.

 

[Arkteia]

I think it comes from fashion magazines and Victoria Secret's ads... If I see a "Swimsuit" issue with the model of the year who is very thin and has disproportionately huge boobs I think it is "in" because they made her "rich and famous". Victoria's Secret's catalogues always sell pushup bras (you can pull out the pads, though) so there is a temptation to wear them...

Also, many young girls these days are overweight so big-size shirts and sweaters may actually be meant for them as well. And it is in their culture because of the "glossy pressure", this is my own expression, I do not know how to express it in a better way.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

...

As long as we're on Marie Antoinette, I read some where that she encouraged the peasants come into the castle and watch her eat. I don't think the sight of her munching down piles of goodies, while they were starving, helped her any.

Well I read that there was ultimately never any evidence that she did any of the outrageous things she was constantly accused of, the worst of which was having an incestuous relationship with her son. I seriously doubt any of the accusations leveled against her were true, and if they do contain any kernal of truth I'm sure it was long ago overtaken by propaganda and exaggeration. I'm not all that familiar with her history, but given the politics and mores of the time, she was likely simply a convenient target and rallying point for the general ire against the monarchy. Trumping up stories and spreading outrageous and salacious rumors was and IS a stock political weapon, I see no reason to think she was not the target of that very thing. She was a foreigner too, which didn't help.

Yep, there is no evidence of her actually saying, "let them eat cake," after being told the peasants were without bread. If you look on wikipedia, it says a writer mentioned a "great princess" who said such phrase, but he didn't say Marie's name in his book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake

 

[HollyS]

It's the Kardashian-ation of our nation.

 

[y2kitty]

I have D's and I specifically wear low cut shirts the day after the old fuddy duddy pisses me off about something.

 

[iLander]

I have D's and I specifically wear low cut shirts the day after the old fuddy duddy pisses me off about something.

"Revenge Boobies!" LOL!

This made me laugh out loud

ETA: Where's DF now that we have a picture? Actually I think hers are gross. In that particular photo they make me think of skin-covered basketballs. Ick!