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Social change has to be slow?

AGBF

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Musia and Nala-

I am not sure what your point is in posting links to what appears to me to be some crazy fringe group. How does that advance our conversation? It would be sad if each "side" (liberals and conservatives) was reduced to posting links to fringe groups. I could, right now, post a link to a video of one of the extreme right wing armed people in Boogaloo shirts confronting lawmakers on the steps of the Michigan statehouse. But what would that prove except that both sides have "lunatic fringes"?

Deb/AGBF
 

Musia

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Musia and Nala-

I am not sure what your point is in posting links to what appears to me to be some crazy fringe group. How does that advance our conversation? It would be sad if each "side" (liberals and conservatives) was reduced to posting links to fringe groups. I could, right now, post a link to a video of one of the extreme right wing armed people in Boogaloo shirts confronting lawmakers on the steps of the Michigan statehouse. But what would that prove except that both sides have "lunatic fringes"?

Deb/AGBF
I can't call them "both sides". Everything right wing is not conservative in my opinion. OK, no more bad videos, only educational ones.
 

yssie

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I have noticed a distressing commonality between the BLM and MeToo movements: If one does not default to first believing all accusations that the oppressed/marginalized groups level, and further, one does not default to first vilifying those whom the oppressed/marginalized groups accuse, one is immediately labelled *-ist. Questioning stories in a 'X said Y said' situation, waiting for proof of wrongdoing, presuming innocence until proof of guilt is established - these are tenets of our judicial system. They always have been. I agree that our judicial system needs to get better - much better! - about observing them... The vigilantes of social mores would achieve far more success with far less objection by demonstrating, by example, the spirit of this etiquette, in my humble opinion.

Edit - @the_mother_thing and I don't share all philosophies, but I personally find her points well-considered and well presented, even when I feel differently. I see many in this thread who seem to merely want to box her opinions up and label her with *-ists - and as I read through these five pages those are the posts I find myself discarding as ineffective and unproductive, not hers. Arguments are never won - beliefs are never changed - social change is never effected - by denigrating, infantalizing, or disregarding opposition.
 
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nala

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Musia and Nala-

I am not sure what your point is in posting links to what appears to me to be some crazy fringe group. How does that advance our conversation? It would be sad if each "side" (liberals and conservatives) was reduced to posting links to fringe groups. I could, right now, post a link to a video of one of the extreme right wing armed people in Boogaloo shirts confronting lawmakers on the steps of the Michigan statehouse. But what would that prove except that both sides have "lunatic fringes"?

Deb/AGBF
Not sure why you addressed this comment to me.
 

jaaron

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I have noticed a distressing commonality between the BLM and MeToo movements: If one does not default to first believing all accusations that the oppressed/marginalized groups level, and further, one does not default to first vilifying those whom the oppressed/marginalized groups accuse, one is immediately labelled *-ist. Questioning stories in a 'X said Y said' situation, waiting for proof of wrongdoing, presuming innocence until proof of guilt is established - these are tenets of our judicial system. They always have been. I agree that our judicial system needs to get better - much better! - about observing them... The vigilantes of social mores would achieve far more success with far less objection by demonstrating, by example, the spirit of this etiquette, in my humble opinion.

Edit - @the_mother_thing and I don't share all philosophies, but I personally find her points well-considered and well presented, even when I feel differently. I see many in this thread who seem to merely want to box her opinions up and label her with *-ists - and as I read through these five pages those are the posts I find myself discarding as ineffective and unproductive, not hers. Arguments are never won - beliefs are never changed - social change is never effected - by denigrating, infantalizing, or disregarding opposition.
As to your first point, I agree. It's one of the catch-22s of there being so many years of so much inequality. So much racism, discrimination and violence agains POCs (a considerable amount of it state-sanctioned), so many women not believed, afraid to come forward, being told they asked for it, didn't say no clearly enough. When the attention is finally on the inequalities and the tide may be beginning to turn, things can definitely go too far in the other direction. Believe all women is obviously not a viable way of going about things. I've read that 2-10% of sexual violence allegations are false. Any number of false allegations is completely unacceptable. But I can also see the fear-- that letting up, at least at this point in time, could pull us backwards. Unfortunately, there isn't really a good uncomplicated answer here.

Arguments are never won - beliefs are never changed - social change is never effected - by denigrating, infantalizing, or disregarding opposition.

I get that point. Ideally, beliefs get changed through respectful discourse. But historically I think most social change actually has been effected by in some way disregarding the opposition-- LBJ sending in the national guard to integrate schools, the world coming together against Nazism, the Supreme Court needing to rule on gay marriage, the north winning against the south. Unfortunately, I think acceptance, to the extent it comes, usually follows forced change rather than the other way around.

Your second point, I just don't see it.

I appreciate that you are able to see through any philosophical differences to the logic, but I can't seem to. I admit, I'm tired of seeing such terrible inequality in our society and such a large percentage of the population seeming to be inured to it. I'm tired of people having to crowdfund to afford insulin. I'm tired of a political system that wants to force women to have babies even when they're the result of rape of incest but doesn't want to give healthcare to these same babies. I'm tired of people being afraid their children are going to be shot in school or at the mall or at the movies or at a concert or in church or synagogue or the mosque. I'm tired of a government that actually seems to want to pollute our air and water. I'm tired of twisted statistics as 130,000+ Americans are dead or dying. I'm not blind to the people in mainstream America who feel forgotten and left behind. For a long time I was empathetic to the forces that drove the opinions I didn't share. But now I'm just... tired of it. These aren't, or shouldn't be, issues of politics - so many of them come down to fundamental moral rights and wrongs.

I was called short-sighted and narrow-minded on the first page of this thread, told I'm advocating for violence because I said I can see why people who have been asking and asking for fundamental equal rights could be frustrated enough that things would boil over. Another poster was accused of playing social change buzzword bingo. And another poster, who'd said nothing of the sort, was told she said, “everyone gets a bunch of free stuff for life” because ‘basic human rights’. The_Mother_Thing accuses posters of virtue-signalling, hysteria, faux-outrage, and to me, that's labelling others with -ists rather than engaging in honest debate. This is from a BillMoyers.com article, so, fair warning, it has a left-wing bias, but I find a lot in it that encapsulates my own frustration:

Despite his boasts, Trump is hardly a trendsetter. He is merely following the lead of the right’s most prominent propagandists on Fox News and hate/outrage/grievance radio: Newt, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, the formerly influential Bill O’Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones, Laura Ingraham, Mark Levin, etc. None of them can reason well. When challenged, they don’t act like good thinkers would — by listening carefully and then responding with careful, effective, fact-based arguments. Instead, they interrupt and shout down their opponents, belittle them with some pejorative term (“feminazi,” “libtard,” “snowflake,” “elitist”), attack their character or motives, and then avoid further challenge of their vapid rants by escaping to advertisements.

And this: I can't find a way to see it as a well-considered argument although it's the tenet that seems to underpin a lot of this conversation. To me, it's like saying the only thing holding me back from becoming a prima ballerina is personal choice. Additionally, It casts the starting point of the discussion in a ridiculous place--no one ever said, here at least, that they considered a guarantee of debt & death-avoidance a human right.

Healthcare IS accessible ... that is the ‘human right’; not ’free healthcare for life with a guarantee of debt- & death-avoidance’.

Access to education is the ‘right’; not free college, private school, the top-performing school in the nation, etc.

We’ve been throwing money and resources at these same issues for decades, yet we still have the same problems; just a new generation (or three) of ‘victims‘. There has never been a time in our country where there is more opportunity to succeed; the only thing holding people back is personal choice, and decades of academic & elite snobs telling others they cannot improve their circumstances, what they cannot do, that something is not possible, making excuses for them to not succeed ... blaming society, the ‘system‘, their skin color/ethnicity, their family, their gender, their address, etc. Is that how people should raise kids? Telling them they can’t do/go/be something better/different if they want to, that they cannot choose differently? I’d call that bad parenting. So why treat fellow Americans that way? Let me guess, there’s a study ... I’m sure that’s what they want to hear next, that they are also a statistic. :roll:

Cycles are broken by people who choose to finally stop doing the same thing over and over that keeps them down; not by society constantly giving things to people for free & solving all their problems for them. Teach a person to fish, or tell them the market price, then let them choose.


Anyway, I agree with you on a lot, disagree on some, but that you for engaging kindly.
 

yssie

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@jaaron I was a Bernie girl til the moment he left :(sad I don't know that I'll ever meet a politician I "trust" to actually keep his manifesto promises, but I think I got as close as I'll ever get. But at the same time I strongly suspect that I'm more willing to hold people accountable for their decisions than most who identify as liberal - I feel a community has an obligation to ensure all people have choices, but I don't think that community has any obligation to bail people out of wilfully making poor choices. I know that's a vague and handwavey statement, I'll have to come back with specifics later.

I'll look at your link later this evening after work, thank you for sharing!
 

voce

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And Minnesota governor is now asking Trump for Disaster Declaration and asks for money to clean mess caused by rioters (some call them protesters demanding social changes) up. https://bongino.com/after-month-lon...yc_vJ5Ds58WqT9xAOwbV-rGZNG1pI87-0yL_xDs0ixfik
Musia, with all due respect, I don't find your posts of videos and articles of particular incidents to be constructive. I find them every bit as alarmist and sensationalist as the most sensational NYT articles. They are not persuasive for your stance against quicker social change. You are posting only the bad, and none of the good. This only shows me you are reinforcing your own confirmation bias. In most circumstances, there are both good and bad that result.
 

Musia

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Musia, with all due respect, I don't find your posts of videos and articles of particular incidents to be constructive. I find them every bit as alarmist and sensationalist as the most sensational NYT articles. They are not persuasive for your stance against quicker social change. You are posting only the bad, and none of the good. This only shows me you are reinforcing your own confirmation bias. In most circumstances, there are both good and bad that result.
Please check the first post here made by @jaaron

Discussion question.

This is something I've heard my whole life. Social change has to be slow. People advocating for change have to be patient, wait for the dominant culture to accept a slow march toward equality.

Do you believe this?

My personal opinion, for what it's worth, is, Why?

Why should people have to accept waiting for any kind of equality? Whether it's of religion, colour, ethnicity, gender, sexuality. To some extent, I can see why BLM protests could boil over into chaos and violence. I can see why people are taking statues down themselves. How many years is it acceptable for people to have to wait for the same rights and opportunities I have? And why should they have to?


Many persons on PS approve (to some extent, of course) violent protests since people just can't patiently wait anymore for positive changes to happen. Some are urging to act now, act promptly. Many donated to BLM hoping this may help black communities to improve their lives, raise level of education and health care. Surely, businesses donated millions to BLM. And now the very same governor who allowed riots to happen and last for more than month, is asking for 500 millions in federal financial aid. Is there any positive outcome that I missed and failed to post here?
 
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voce

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Many persons on PS approve (to some extent, of course) violent protests since people just can't patiently wait anymore for positive changes to happen. Some are urging to act now, act promptly. Many donated to BLM hoping this may help black communities to improve their lives, raise level of education and health care. Surely, businesses donated millions to BLM. And now the very same governor who allowed riots to happen and last for more than month, is asking for 500 millions in federal financial aid. Is there any positive outcome that I missed and failed to post here? We are discussing the forces necessary for changes in society to be much faster.
1) Urging people to act now, act promptly does not equal advocating peaceful or non-peaceful protest. You are reading the intent too narrowly. Acting now, acting promptly could be calling for businesses to hire more PoC when they reopen, for instance; it's not as if there is no action other than to protest and to incite protests.

2) Yes, police reform is a positive outcome. I think policemen are privileged (civil forfeiture; being able to damage private property with impunity; defined benefit pension plan; see below). Forcing more accountability on people who have such power and privilege is in theory the right thing to do. The places completely defunding police are acting irresponsibly, but police reform and accountability in itself is not bad, and I doubt all the cases are as bad as the worst-case scenarios that you are posting.

3) Are we "discussing the forces necessary for changes in society to be much faster"? As far as I've noticed, the liberals have not been discussing the forces necessary. There has been one instance stating a social revolution is preferable for that particular member to the status quo. The conservatives have been discussing the reasons why changes in society should be slower, instead of faster.

1594077147593.png
I do believe this pension is on top of Social Security benefits, so police officers and firefighters get to retire after 20 years here. My FIL, a firefighter in Canada, says the pension benefits for police and firefighters in the US is way too generous.
 
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GliderPoss

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Social change cannot and should not just ‘happen’ overnight. It takes time because it must be thoughtfully and thoroughly researched, studied, vetted, and where possible/necessary, voted on to ensure the proposed change does not create an unintended consequence or negative impact on others, nor strips them of their rights. That is what we HAVE learned from history; and failing to do so leads to rushed policy ineffectively enacted with negative consequences.
Cycles are broken by people who choose to finally stop doing the same thing over and over that keeps them down; not by society constantly giving things to people for free & solving all their problems for them. Teach a person to fish, or tell them the market price, then let them choose.
I think to go back to OP question, the above points resonate with me. Change is constant and historically it has been slow (not necessary that it should be!) but often it is slow because I feel that humans are generally fearful of change. Being forced to confront deep-held or subconscious beliefs/bias can be tough, embarrassing even! I believe the worst way to create change is via violence or destruction, I truly don't believe this is the best way to bring people over to your side, to make them see your point of view or opinion. I think it creates resentment which benefits no one.
 

the_mother_thing

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I was called short-sighted and narrow-minded on the first page of this thread, told I'm advocating for violence because I said I can see why people who have been asking and asking for fundamental equal rights could be frustrated enough that things would boil over.
No, I did not call you “short-sighted” or “narrow-minded”. I said people who do not respect our laws, think they are above the law, do not respect others & their property/livelihood, and/or think breaking the law is acceptable to make a point/get their way is “a dangerous slippery slope that only short-sighted & narrow-minded people support." You didn’t ask me why I thought that; you boasted about being an American & attorney, then insulted my opinion & beliefs.

The U.S. has legal/constitutional rights pertaining equality & religion, orientation, ethnicity, education, healthcare, employment, etc. I asked - specifically - what is being sought as a ‘right‘ in the U.S. that is not already established; the only notable responses I got were ‘education’ & ‘healthcare‘, both of which have protections; then the goal posts moved to ‘access’, then to ‘race’, then to ‘systemic racism’ [ETA], then to ‘generational poverty’. Perhaps the reason it takes so long to see ‘change’ is because the freaking goal posts keep moving, and no one knows what is really being sought.

Lastly, you began this thread specifically asking what we believe ... why we believe X, why people need to wait for change, etc. If you really don’t want people’s differing beliefs/opinions, or only want confirmation bias and links to studies & stats, please just say that instead next time.

With that, I’m done with this topic. :wavey:
 

Musia

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My FIL, a firefighter in Canada, says the pension benefits for police and firefighters in the US is way too generous
He wouldn't mind to have same benefits in Canada, G-d bless him! They are risking their lives. They are facing not the best of us even if we are not endangering their lives. And they are underpaid I believe. Hope police reform doesn't removes these benefits.
 
S

SallyB

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During the height of the #MeToo movement, I wonder how many internet discussion boards that were frequented by mostly black males were having such heated discussion about women’s rights. And of those that were, how many of these men took the side of women?
 

voce

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He wouldn't mind to have same benefits in Canada, G-d bless him! They are risking their lives. They are facing not the best of us even if we are not endangering their lives. And they are underpaid I believe. Hope police reform doesn't removes these benefits.
No, he's paid enough as is, and doesn't want for more. I feel very differently from you about this; a 50% salary pension for life after 20 years of service makes it possible to retire at 39 or 40, and 50% is way more than social security benefits pay. I also do not feel like those policemen who abuse their power deserve these benefits.

What do you think of civil forfeiture? And the other case where police ruined a $400k private property with firearms merely to catch a man whole stole a couple T-shirts? I put links in my post above.
 

AGBF

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you boasted about being an American & attorney, then insulted my opinion & beliefs.
All jaaron did was to inform you that since she was an attorney, she did not need you to explain the law to her; she certainly did not boast, nor did she ever insult you. If find an insult she posted, go back and quote it.
 
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Musia

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No, he's paid enough as is, and doesn't want for more.
Wow! Risks his life and doesn't want more money and/or more benefits. Obviously must be really loving what he is doing. Here in the USA people love money and love benefits! And everyone who works for federal government, for state, county or city has benefits. My SIL used to work for Kaiser and now he works for Santa Clara county hospital since they provide great benefits. But he is not risking his life like any cop, so his benefits are less attractive. Who would like to be a cop if not for the benefits??? I don't want myself to be a cop, I don't want my husband be a cop and I don't want my children be cops no matter how great the benefits are!!! And since there are many-many-many POC's working as cops, I think it is a great thing that they have such generous benefits and provide for their families. To bad their profession is extremely dangerous and underappreciated in society! They are usually first-second generation being born in the US, so they are coming from the lower class families. Ruining properties is not good at all, I don't know why that poor person didn't cooperate and opened the door. Was he armed? And please don't ask more complicated questions, I am really not that knowledgeable. Sorry, my English is not good, and my typing speed is even worse.
 

Musia

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you boasted about being an American & attorney, then insulted my opinion & beliefs.
We have a neighbor who is a lawyer, a Yale graduate. She has a dog that is usually very mellow and well behaving. But he/she is sometimes attacking our poor, sweet and innocent GSD when we walk past the lawyer's house on the other side of the road. Our pup hates other dogs and we hate when dogs are off leash and either attacking us or trying making friends. And of course, here in California, it is a LAW for ALL dogs to be on a leash. She posted nasty bad things, mostly lies about us and our aggressive dog on Nextdoor, she commented on our appearance, foreign accents, level of intelligence and obvious to her absence of education. Can you imagine??? For every neighbor to discuss. Never ever argue with lawyers!
 

kipari

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We have a neighbor who is a lawyer, a Yale graduate. She has a dog that is usually very mellow and well behaving. But he/she is sometimes attacking our poor, sweet and innocent GSD when we walk past the lawyer's house on the other side of the road. Our pup hates other dogs and we hate when dogs are off leash and either attacking us or trying making friends. And of course, here in California, it is a LAW for ALL dogs to be on a leash. She posted nasty bad things, mostly lies about us and our aggressive dog on Nextdoor, she commented on our appearance, foreign accents, level of intelligence and obvious to her absence of education. Can you imagine??? For every neighbor to discuss. Never ever argue with lawyers!
Extremely helpful, balanced and completely on topic post. I especially love the total lack of generalization regarding lawyers.
 

Musia

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Extremely helpful, balanced and completely on topic post. I especially love the total lack of generalization regarding lawyers.
Ok, thank you for pointing this. If you check the initial post as well as first responses from PS members, there was no talk about police reform either. Several people were wanting fast changes, like NOW. Later someone wanted social revolution. I afraid, police reform was first mentioned on page 5. So my and @voce's discussion was also kind of off topic. Something positive that had happened as a direct result from protests, but this reform also won't be a fast change, I afraid. Much faster change will be caused by defunding police.

If it may help you, I am now saying that there are good lawyers and bad lawyers. No generalization.
 

Alexiszoe

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@Musia , sorry that you had to go through such a horrible experience. I think no matter where we go, be it rich or poor, highly educated or not there will always be *******s out there.

And thank you for your willingness to listen and engage with others respectfully on the forum. A lot of us may have differing political opinions, but it is through willingness to listen to each other and acknowledge when posters made a valid point that we can all come together and move forward.
 

AGBF

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@Musia , sorry that you had to go through such a horrible experience. I think no matter where we go, be it rich or poor, highly educated or not there will always be *******s out there.

And thank you for your willingness to listen and engage with others respectfully on the forum. A lot of us may have differing political opinions, but it is through willingness to listen to each other and acknowledge when posters made a valid point that we can all come together and move forward.
Having a problem dog myself, my heart goes out to you, Musia. I am sorry for he attacks on your dog who is beautiful (I saw him in the 4th of July photos) and innocent, but the xenophobic attacks on you are inexcusable.

Hugs,
(((Musia)))
Deb
 

Musia

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@Alexiszoe Thank you very much. You are very right, we should listen to each other and try not to hurt anyone's feelings or insult beliefs. And one newer knows what kind of the day or the moment the OP is experiencing while posting here. When I mentioned my lawyer neighbor, I already had some beer and then red wine as an accompaniment for my dinner. So I was more than willing to share my bad experience with the fellow PSer whose feelings were also badly hurt by lawyer. I am sorry for that post being off topic.
 

Musia

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Having a problem dog myself, my heart goes out to you, Musia. I am sorry for he attacks on your dog who is beautiful (I saw him in the 4th of July photos) and innocent, but the xenophobic attacks on you are inexcusable.

Hugs,
(((Musia)))
Deb
Thank you Deb, I appreciate your support and understanding. Hugs.
 

jaaron

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Hi,

I'm really sorry I started the thread and haven't had a chance to come back to any substantive conversation as I'm having a crazy couple of days with work.

Musia. I'm sorry you had that experience with your neighbour. In my experience, lawyers are nice people and not nice people in about the same percentages as the general population. I've met some who were fabulous people and some I wouldn't want to spend 5 minutes with. Your horrible neighbour certainly sounds like the latter and like someone who has larger issues regardless of her education or profession.

However,

@Alexiszoe So I was more than willing to share my bad experience with the fellow PSer whose feelings were also badly hurt by lawyer. I am sorry for that post being off topic.
are you really saying that in telling The_Mother_Thing I didn't need the seventh grade civics lesson in why we have laws I 'badly hurt her feelings'? Because... wow.

I wanted to respond, also, that I wasn't "boasting" about being a lawyer--I was literally explaining that I didn't need a seventh grade level civics lesson in why we have laws. In point of fact, it took me about six months into law school to realise I'd made a mistake and had no interest in being a lawyer. But, in a monumental case of sunk cost fallacy, I finished and passed the bar, but never practiced, and, in fact, went on to do another graduate degree relating to what I really wanted to do, which is what I should have done in the first place. :roll:
 

voce

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Hi,

I'm really sorry I started the thread and haven't had a chance to come back to any substantive conversation as I'm having a crazy couple of days with work.

Musia. I'm sorry you had that experience with your neighbour. In my experience, lawyers are nice people and not nice people in about the same percentages as the general population. I've met some who were fabulous people and some I wouldn't want to spend 5 minutes with. Your horrible neighbour certainly sounds like the latter and like someone who has larger issues regardless of her education or profession.

However,



are you really saying that in telling The_Mother_Thing I didn't need the seventh grade civics lesson in why we have laws I 'badly hurt her feelings'? Because... wow.

I wanted to respond, also, that I wasn't "boasting" about being a lawyer--I was literally explaining that I didn't need a seventh grade level civics lesson in why we have laws. In point of fact, it took me about six months into law school to realise I'd made a mistake and had no interest in being a lawyer. But, in a monumental case of sunk cost fallacy, I finished and passed the bar, but never practiced, and, in fact, went on to do another graduate degree relating to what I really wanted to do, which is what I should have done in the first place. :roll:
People like the latter group is why I never considered law in undergrad. Even now I hesitate to even think about law school, given the high cost and time investment that it would require. I'm sorry you spent all that much time and money, but I'm glad you are in a happier place right now.
 

Musia

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I was literally explaining that I didn't need a seventh grade level civics lesson in why we have laws.
I have a feeling that people are writhing responses keeping in mind that more than one person would read them and try to comprehend. I honestly believe that some other PSers would benefit from a seven grade level civics lesson, me for example, since I didn't receive any education in the USA. By the time my younger kid graduated from middle school I was barely able to read some children's books in English.

Thank you for letting me know your side of the story and I am very glad that you are now doing for living what you really love and what makes your life more meaningful.
 

AGBF

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I have a feeling that people are writhing responses keeping in mind that more than one person would read them and try to comprehend. I honestly believe that some other PSers would benefit from a seven grade level civics lesson, me for example, since I didn't receive any education in the USA. By the time my younger kid graduated from middle school I was barely able to read some children's books in English.

Thank you for letting me know your side of the story and I am very glad that you are now doing for living what you really love and what makes your life more meaningful.
I have considered starting a thread on Slavic languages since I have been interacting with you, Musia. I am certain there are may Pricescopers besides the ones that I know were born in countries where the native languages are Slavic who speak Slavic languages. Your humility about learning English has been making me think about this.

I have been lazy and not studying any foreign languages since covid19 hit. Prior to that I had been using Duolingo to refresh my French and some other languages I had started to study but never advanced in, then I decided to start learning Czech.

Why Czech? Well, my mother's family immigrated to the United States from the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the part that became Slovakia after World War I. Duolingo didn't offer Slovak and my great aunts and uncles could always speak with Czech people (also Poles and Russians) so I though I would cut my boredom studying French incessantly by studying Czech. Close enough to Slovak for government work.

Well...nothing had prepared me for how hard learning Czech was going to be for me!

I had studied German (not for long and I cannot speak it at all), but I had been exposed to at least one language that was not a Romance language. But when I saw the first page of Czech, I couldn't fathom it at all. And unlike Russian or Ukrainian, I wasn't even using a Cyrillic alphabet!

Pricscope has many polyglots. We have had some threads where members list incredibly diverse lists of languages they speak. Maybe we should do that again. It would be nice to see something positive come from this thread. :))
 
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