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Social change has to be slow?

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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Mar 2, 2013
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This is the problem. People who have been systemically discriminated against can’t just change their circumstance.

Health care is not accessible for everyone in the US. Many people choose between bankruptcy and treatment.

When standard of education is based on where you live, it promotes generational poverty. People often don’t have the option of moving from an area with sub standard schools. This limits the earning potential for the next generation. It’s a cycle.
Healthcare IS accessible ... that is the ‘human right’; not ’free healthcare for life with a guarantee of debt- & death-avoidance’.

Access to education is the ‘right’; not free college, private school, the top-performing school in the nation, etc.

We’ve been throwing money and resources at these same issues for decades, yet we still have the same problems; just a new generation (or three) of ‘victims‘. There has never been a time in our country where there is more opportunity to succeed; the only thing holding people back is personal choice, and decades of academic & elite snobs telling others they cannot improve their circumstances, what they cannot do, that something is not possible, making excuses for them to not succeed ... blaming society, the ‘system‘, their skin color/ethnicity, their family, their gender, their address, etc. Is that how people should raise kids? Telling them they can’t do/go/be something better/different if they want to, that they cannot choose differently? I’d call that bad parenting. So why treat fellow Americans that way? Let me guess, there’s a study ... I’m sure that’s what they want to hear next, that they are also a statistic. :roll:

Cycles are broken by people who choose to finally stop doing the same thing over and over that keeps them down; not by society constantly giving things to people for free & solving all their problems for them. Teach a person to fish, or tell them the market price, then let them choose.
 

chemgirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,139
Healthcare IS accessible ... that is the ‘human right’; not ’free healthcare for life with a guarantee of debt- & death-avoidance’.

Access to education is the ‘right’; not free college, private school, the top-performing school in the nation, etc.

We’ve been throwing money and resources at these same issues for decades, yet we still have the same problems; just a new generation (or three) of ‘victims‘. There has never been a time in our country where there is more opportunity to succeed; the only thing holding people back is personal choice, and decades of academic & elite snobs telling others they cannot improve their circumstances, what they cannot do, that something is not possible, making excuses for them to not succeed ... blaming society, the ‘system‘, their skin color/ethnicity, their family, their gender, their address, etc. Is that how people should raise kids? Telling them they can’t do/go/be something better/different if they want to, that they cannot choose differently? I’d call that bad parenting. So why treat fellow Americans that way? Let me guess, there’s a study ... I’m sure that’s what they want to hear next, that they are also a statistic. :roll:

Cycles are broken by people who choose to finally stop doing the same thing over and over that keeps them down; not by society constantly giving things to people for free & solving all their problems for them. Teach a person to fish, or tell them the market price, then let them choose.
This is just sad to read.
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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6,224
This is just sad to read.
Why? Because I don’t believe in just giving people ‘free‘ everything? Because I believe in encouraging & lifting people up to help them achieve success vs talking/holding them down?
 

chemgirl

Ideal_Rock
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Why? Because I don’t believe in just giving people ‘free‘ everything? Because I believe in encouraging & lifting people up to help them achieve success vs talking/holding them down?
Because it ignores systemic issues that have lead people to poverty.

Because it’s showing immense privilege and highlighting attitudes that will inhibit change.
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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Because it ignores systemic issues that have lead people to poverty.

Because it’s showing immense privilege and highlighting attitudes that will inhibit change.
That’s your opinion to which you are entitled; it’s definitely not fact.
 
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the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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Of course!

But I can say the same for everything you’re saying.
You could ... or you could constructively contribute to the thread topic and respectfully explain why you think I am wrong instead of playing ‘social change’ buzzword bingo. Just a suggestion.
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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See from my perspective that’s what you’re doing.
I’m relieved you believe I am constructively adding to the conversation. I’m surely not playing the latter as I didn’t board the ‘social change’ train.
 

chemgirl

Ideal_Rock
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I’m relieved you believe I am constructively adding to the conversation. I’m surely not playing the latter as I didn’t board the ‘social change’ train.
Sorry I misspoke. I meant contributing from a place of white privilege. Which admittedly I am too, but at least I’ll admit that race plays a roll in how people are treated.
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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Sorry I misspoke. I meant contributing from a place of white privilege.
No, I’m not.

Again, how is anything I posted wrong? Do you not agree in lifting people up? Do you think society owes people free everything from birth to death? Where exactly are the lines drawn when it comes to what is/is not a ‘basic human right’ and how exactly do people in the U.S. not have them? Specifically how does any one not have access to healthcare, education, etc?
 

chemgirl

Ideal_Rock
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No, I’m not.

Again, how is anything I posted wrong? Do you not agree in lifting people up? Do you think society owes people free everything from birth to death? Where exactly are the lines drawn when it comes to what is/is not a ‘basic human right’ and how exactly do people in the U.S. not have them? Specifically how does any one not have access to healthcare, education, etc?
I already explained those two things.

Plus this is completely wrong and what I was reacting to when I said that your post was sad to read:

“There has never been a time in our country where there is more opportunity to succeed; the only thing holding people back is personal choice, and decades of academic & elite snobs telling others they cannot improve their circumstances, what they cannot do, that something is not possible, making excuses for them to not succeed ... blaming society, the ‘system‘, their skin color/ethnicity, their family, their gender, their address, etc. Is that how people should raise kids?”

This is completely false. It’s negating systemic racism.
 
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Mekp

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
183
No, I’m not.

Again, how is anything I posted wrong? Do you not agree in lifting people up? Do you think society owes people free everything from birth to death? Where exactly are the lines drawn when it comes to what is/is not a ‘basic human right’ and how exactly do people in the U.S. not have them? Specifically how does any one not have access to healthcare, education, etc?
You asked about access to healthcare. Accessibility in healthcare is actually defined in Canadian legislation, something that your country has never done. The legislated definition of accessible healthcare includes the requirement that "...Canadians must have reasonable access to insured services without charge or paying user fees".

I'm not sure why anyone who lives in a country that doesn't legislate healthcare accessibility would think they could define the concept better.
 

Musia

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
836
@voce I had checked on "socialist" (simply the most prosperous countries in Europe) Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark. Only Sweden is known for accepting relatively big numbers of immigrants. The climate of these Northern European countries is pretty harsh, hard to survive. The diet is mostly fish or seafood, not all immigrants can adapt to such a diet. So these countries aren't people's first choice when it comes to immigration. Even Sweden is considered to be a mono national country. Let's check how many blacks Sweden has. There are no official statistics on ethnicity, but according to Statistics Sweden, around 3,311,312 (32.3%) inhabitants of Sweden were of a foreign background in 2018, defined as being born abroad or born in Sweden with at least one parent born abroad.[19] The most common countries of origin were Syria (1.82%), Finland (1.45%), Iraq (1.41%), Poland (0.91%), Iran (0.76%) and Somalia (0.67%).[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden)

0.67% are immigrants from Somalia!

So these mono national countries simply don't face the problems the USA faces. We have many poor white people, we have many poor black people, as well as many other POC who are poor. So why do we need open borders? Wouldn't it be better if we fix our own problems first without letting unlimited numbers of immigrants from the third world countries in? It was Clinton who stopped the program that allowed my husband who had two PhD's (one in Physics and one in Computer Engineering) to get a Green Card in 97-98. His friend who came to the US a few years earlier was lucky to get it from NCSU, my husband who worked for the same University wasn't. He got his Green Card only in 2003, after proving his merits (almost like being a Nobel Prize winner!). And he brought me and 2 kids to the US 1.5 years later (he came in Jan. 1997, we came in June 1998, only after he had enough money to pay for us all, including private health insurance (NCSU didn't cover our kids and me). And I wasn't able to get a job legally, my H-2 visa prohibited me from working in the US. So my first job was babysitting Chinese baby boy for $2.50/hour.

I just can't comprehend why socialists want to keep borders open and redistribute wealth at the same time??? Nothing is free: no free education, no free healthcare, no free housing. Someone has to pay for them. We had FREE things in the USSR. There was a shortage of everything, the most painful was shortage of housing, chronic and severe. Only education was good, in some cases great. That's it.

Thank you for reading, I know how busy you are.
 
Last edited:

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
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Messages
6,224
I already explained those two things.

Plus this is completely wrong and what I was reacting to when I said that your post was sad to read:

“There has never been a time in our country where there is more opportunity to succeed; the only thing holding people back is personal choice, and decades of academic & elite snobs telling others they cannot improve their circumstances, what they cannot do, that something is not possible, making excuses for them to not succeed ... blaming society, the ‘system‘, their skin color/ethnicity, their family, their gender, their address, etc. Is that how people should raise kids?”

This is completely false. It’s negating systemic racism.
You’re only considering ‘basic human rights” and issues like poverty, education & healthcare when it affects minorities/POC. So how exactly does systemic racism result in non-POC experiencing these exact same issues?

Poverty, crime, addiction, disease, crappy teachers and imperfect healthcare does not discriminate and seek out only POC, so no, I do not believe “systemic racism” is to blame.
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Messages
6,224
You asked about access to healthcare. Accessibility in healthcare is actually defined in Canadian legislation, something that your country has never done. The legislated definition of accessible healthcare includes the requirement that "...Canadians must have reasonable access to insured services without charge or paying user fees".

I'm not sure why anyone who lives in a country that doesn't legislate healthcare accessibility would think they could define the concept better.
That’s Canada; I am speaking about the U.S. I won’t get into a debate in this thread about Canada vs. U.S., but if you want to, feel free to start a new thread. Suffice it to say, I’ve worked with many, many Canadians who were thrilled when our company relocated them to the U.S., as they enjoyed our healthcare system and benefits far better than what they had north of the border.
 

chemgirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,139
That’s Canada; I am speaking about the U.S. I won’t get into a debate in this thread about Canada vs. U.S., but if you want to, feel free to start a new thread. Suffice it to say, I’ve worked with many, many Canadians who were thrilled when our company relocated them to the U.S., as they enjoyed our healthcare system and benefits far better than what they had north of the border.
I’ve lived in both countries and obviously your company has excellent insurance with a low deductible.

Unfortunately a lot of people don’t have that luxury.
 

Mekp

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
183
That’s Canada; I am speaking about the U.S. I won’t get into a debate in this thread about Canada vs. U.S., but if you want to, feel free to start a new thread. Suffice it to say, I’ve worked with many, many Canadians who were thrilled when our company relocated them to the U.S., as they enjoyed our healthcare system and benefits far better than what they had north of the border.
I would wager a considerable amount that *any* country that has legislated accessibility of healthcare has similar wording? Why? Because financial accessibility is a big part of accessibility.

My issue isn't so much that you are apparently the type of person who doesn't give two hoots about other people's reality and suffering. My issue is that you are attempting to argue that denying people basic human rights is somehow magnanimous.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
21,806
Healthcare IS accessible ... that is the ‘human right’; not ’free healthcare for life with a guarantee of debt- & death-avoidance’.
Do you still happen to have the clay tablet that this came written on? I would never doubt your word, but there's a man at the train station who said he would like to see it with his own eyes.
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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Mar 2, 2013
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6,224
I read it. I just found it to be racist so I’m not going to continue to address it.
You found this (below) racist? How exactly? :confused:
You’re only considering ‘basic human rights” and issues like poverty, education & healthcare when it affects minorities/POC. So how exactly does systemic racism result in non-POC experiencing these exact same issues?

Poverty, crime, addiction, disease, crappy teachers and imperfect healthcare does not discriminate and seek out onlyPOC, so no, I do not believe “systemic racism” is to blame.
Racism is generally defined as ‘unfair treatment of people based on their ethnicity‘. You’re attributing human rights issues to ‘systemic racism‘ but the exact issues being discussed literally effect/apply to every single ethnicity in our country - not only POC/minorities/etc. If they only applied to POC/minorities, I would agree there is a racially discriminatory component to their cause. But that is not the case here. And it’s certainly not ‘racist’ to ask you to explain your position.
 

chemgirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,139
You found this (below) racist? How exactly? :confused:


Racism is generally defined as ‘unfair treatment of people based on their ethnicity‘. You’re attributing human rights issues to ‘systemic racism‘ but the exact issues being discussed literally effect/apply to every single ethnicity in our country - not only POC/minorities/etc. If they only applied to POC/minorities, I would agree there is a racially discriminatory component to their cause. But that is not the case here. And it’s certainly not ‘racist’ to ask you to explain your position.
Sorry for the confusion, this earlier comment that you made denies systemic racism which is in itself a racist act. Note your use of underline and italics to really emphasize that point.

“There has never been a time in our country where there is more opportunity to succeed; the only thing holding people back is personal choice, and decades of academic & elite snobs telling others they cannot improve their circumstances, what they cannot do, that something is not possible, making excuses for them to not succeed ... blaming society, the ‘system‘, their skin color/ethnicity, their family, their gender, their address, etc. Is that how people should raise kids?”
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Messages
6,224
Do you still happen to have the clay tablet that this came written on? I would never doubt your word, but there's a man at the train station who said he would like to see it with his own eyes.
It may be slow for people on dial-up, but it is available in digital form if you just search. I will help you out, because I’m nice like that:

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

(and)

Article 26.

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
Overlooking the U.N.‘s sexist references to ‘his’, how - specifically - does the U.S. not enable access? Until COVID, we had the lowest unemployment numbers in history, and everyone has access to education.
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
3,971
@voce I had checked on "socialist" (simply the most prosperous countries in Europe) Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark. Only Sweden is known for accepting relatively big numbers of immigrants. The climate of these Northern European countries is pretty harsh, hard to survive. The diet is mostly fish or seafood, not all immigrants can adapt to such a diet. So these countries aren't people's first choice when it comes to immigration. Even Sweden is considered to be a mono national country. Let's check how many blacks Sweden has. There are no official statistics on ethnicity, but according to Statistics Sweden, around 3,311,312 (32.3%) inhabitants of Sweden were of a foreign background in 2018, defined as being born abroad or born in Sweden with at least one parent born abroad.[19] The most common countries of origin were Syria (1.82%), Finland (1.45%), Iraq (1.41%), Poland (0.91%), Iran (0.76%) and Somalia (0.67%).[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden)

0.67% are immigrants from Somalia!

So these mono national countries simply don't face the problems the USA faces. We have many poor white people, we have many poor black people, as well as many other POC who are poor. So why do we need open borders? Wouldn't it be better if we fix our own problems first without letting unlimited numbers of immigrants from the third world countries in? It was Clinton who stopped the program that allowed my husband who had two PhD's (one in Physics and one in Computer Engineering) to get a Green Card in 97-98. His friend who came to the US a few years earlier was lucky to get it from NCSU, my husband who worked for the same University wasn't. He got his Green Card only in 2003, after proving his merits (almost like being a Nobel Prize winner!). And he brought me and 2 kids to the US 1.5 years later (he came in Jan. 1997, we came in June 1998, only after he had enough money to pay for us all, including private health insurance (NCSU didn't cover our kids and me). And I wasn't able to get a job legally, my H-2 visa prohibited me from working in the US. So my first job was babysitting Chinese baby boy for $2.50/hour.

I just can't comprehend why socialists want to keep borders open and redistribute wealth at the same time??? Nothing is free: no free education, no free healthcare, no free housing. Someone has to pay for them. We had FREE things in the USSR. There was a shortage of everything, the most painful was shortage of housing, chronic and severe. Only education was good, in some cases great. That's it.

Thank you for reading, I know how busy you are.
+1 to everything that you said in the post.

I myself am not pro open borders or pro the redistribution of wealth. Resources are finite. If you give away things for free, the cost will come from somewhere else. There is nothing truly free.

I am against social revolution, so I'm adamantly against Bernie Sanders and what he stands for.

I sympathize with liberals against discrimination based on gender or race. I don't think this should be conflated with the more "out there" ideas of open borders.

The social change I would support is celebrating diversity, whether in the form of experiences of women or trans or people of color, not a social revolution. It can be a swift mild change, not sweeping broad change like a social revolution would be.

There is nothing inherent about social change that says it HAS to be slow. Some of you believe it has to be slow, but that's opinion because the rate of social change is not something that can be scientifically measured, objectively determined.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
32,396
Cycles are broken by people who choose to finally stop doing the same thing over and over that keeps them down; not by society constantly giving things to people for free & solving all their problems for them. Teach a person to fish, or tell them the market price, then let them choose.
:clap: :clap:
 
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