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Social change has to be slow?

voce

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
3,744
I view President Kennedy totally differently from the way you do, but we would need a new thread to discuss him. I also do not have the stamina to do so right now. Maybe you could take a rain check for a debate on how he handled the Cuban Missile Crisis? :))

Deb :wavey:
Okay. I think he was a scumbag in his personal life with the sexual promiscuity, but on intellectual and leadership matters he took a very serious and disciplined approach. Rain check on the Cuban Missile Crisis.
 

jaaron

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
675
Your former profession is not something that is known to every PSer. I guess we're supposed to just know that you're a lawyer and refrain from expressing opinions and knowledge about laws in response to your posts.

It's frightening how people are advocating violence. Violent revolutions tend to eat their own, because the goalposts keep changing, and "Right Thought" for today suddenly becomes wrong. Violence begets violence.
My point is that it's unbecoming to condescend to someone you're engaging with on the internet with the assumption they're ignorant on basic civics. If someone comes to a discussion with the assumption I need a lecture on the reason for the existence of laws, I'm going to respond in kind.

And I'm not advocating for violence. I'm saying I can understand how people turn to it when they are starting off from the position of having to ask (and ask and ask and ask) and wait (and wait and wait and wait) for the basic human rights many of us take for granted.
 

Emerald City

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
162
My point is that it's unbecoming to condescend to someone you're engaging with on the internet with the assumption they're ignorant on basic civics. If someone comes to a discussion with the assumption I need a lecture on the reason for the existence of laws, I'm going to respond in kind.

And I'm not advocating for violence. I'm saying I can understand how people turn to it when they are starting off from the position of having to ask (and ask and ask and ask) and wait (and wait and wait and wait) for the basic human rights many of us take for granted.
I did not say you were advocating for violence. It was a general commentary on the attitudes expressed in this thread.

I did not think the other comment sounded condescending, but that's subjective. Your comment certainly sounded so. I guess that's a judgment call, too.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Jan 26, 2003
Messages
21,560
Okay. I think he was a scumbag in his personal life with the sexual promiscuity, but on intellectual and leadership matters he took a very serious and disciplined approach. Rain check on the Cuban Missile Crisis.
:))
 

JPie

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
3,405
I think the pace of social change depends on who is demanding more power, and what it costs the party that holds most of it.
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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Mar 2, 2013
Messages
6,202
I am American, and also, although not practicing, a lawyer (almost a ls contemporary of a recent not-so-impressive Supreme Court nominee, in fact), so thanks for that little ABC primer on how laws work. And, although you won't get any argument from me that reform is desperately needed there, I'm not really interested in engaging in whataboutism on the Middle East.

But see, this

Why should they adopt your beliefs?

is case in point on why people are resorting to violence. When you cast the conversation as a question of belief, you're starting from a place that is fundamentally wrong. Why should people have to accept that their rights because of colour, ethnicity, religion, gender or sexuality are open to debate? A matter of belief rather than a given?

Violence/destruction does not persuade me, personally.

Right. People shouldn't have to persuade you, personally, that they're entitled to the exact same rights as you. They. Just. Are.
You can leave your degree on the wall - this isn’t a consultation. Besides, education is meaningless to me when someone advocates businesses be looted and set ablaze, public and private property destroyed, and forces neighborhoods to become overrun with crime because someone doesn’t get their way. Generally speaking, violence is only a reasonable response when one’s life is imminently threatened; as soon as you condone it otherwise, you’ve lost all sense of civility in my book. For example, George Floyd’s life was imminently threatened, and those who stood by with their cell phones video recording it could - and should - have fought for his life. The two lawyers who tossed Molotov cocktails in police vehicles ... the people toppling statues and destroying public/private property, their lives weren’t imminently threatened.

I used the term “beliefs” generically, meaning: whatever it is “you” are trying to persuade someone else to see/understand/agree; I thought that was obvious. Just because you think/believe something doesn’t make it fact/right/correct. Regardless, it does not matter what one’s “cause” is: there is a basic, fundamental right and wrong way to effect change. There. Just. Is.

We have equal rights in America, so not sure what is up for debate. Highlighting the lack of gay rights in the Middle East is not “whataboutism” considering this thread was general in nature about slow adoption of ‘social‘ change; you didn’t specify any particular region or country when starting this thread. The U.S. is definitely not the bottom of the barrel when it comes to human & civil rights. China is another shining example of oppression ...

Maybe your goal is to try & cast the U.S. as some horribly oppressive country, but every Hollyweirdo who swore they’d leave the U.S. if Trump got elected still calls it home, and immigrants still want to come live here for some reason ... including U.K.’s Prince & Princess of Sussex who beat feet out of England and now live in the U.S. ... so while it’s not perfect, it‘s definitely not all that bad here.
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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6,202
My point is that it's unbecoming to condescend to someone you're engaging with on the internet with the assumption they're ignorant on basic civics. If someone comes to a discussion with the assumption I need a lecture on the reason for the existence of laws, I'm going to respond in kind.

And I'm not advocating for violence. I'm saying I can understand how people turn to it when they are starting off from the position of having to ask (and ask and ask and ask) and wait (and wait and wait and wait) for the basic human rights many of us take for granted.
It wasn’t intended to be condescending; you assumed it was. I stated what I did about laws because you had stated you lived in the U.K., and as a reminder to the many who live here who seem to have forgotten the purpose of laws.

If we ALL do not have and respect established laws, it doesn’t matter what social change you want or how fast/slow it arrives because it can/will all be undone the moment another group disagrees and decides to destroy, defund and intimidate society to get their way ... because “you” have now made that acceptable.
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
6,202
@Musia that poster you posted is exploitation of one of the most tragic events occurring in US soil. Defunding the police means reallocation of some of their budget to fund positions in other areas that are better equipped to handle non violent issues. Defunding actually helps the police by relieving them of going on calls for which they have no training -- mental illness, drug addiction, domestic violence for example -- and allows for those who have training in those fields to handle the calls. Reallocation of funds also means investing in solving problems at the community level in an effort to mitigate the social issues that form the basis of criminal behavior. It's a win-win.
I’m glad she posted it; it’s a necessary reminder that not all cops are evil racists; and, once upon a time, people appreciated their presence and contributions to our communities and civilization.

We just saw what a cop-free community looks like - it’s called CHAZ/CHOP, where 2 people were murdered with no justice for their families. We CAN and should deal with bad cops while ensuring the good cops are supported by communities and community leaders. Defunding the police is a dangerous, politically-motivated, ignorant ‘utopian’ idea that will result in increased crime returning especially to communities formerly plagued by it (the most vulnerable and in need of security), as well as likely injured or dead social workers and counselors who - while “educationally” capable of dealing with a mentally ill person in their office - are not physically capable of managing that situation on their own if/when it goes south. It’s quite a different environment to confront someone “on the street” vs. the couch in their clinic office. Let me guess, a cop escorts them to the scene? Not likely because there won’t be enough cops once the effects of “defunding” are realized through cuts to jobs & resources, and many are retiring in large numbers now.
 

Musia

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
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Messages
585
but I'm all in for a social revolution.
You want the USA to be a socialist country? Name a single socialist country that is prosperous please. Whose citizens are happy, free, well fed, well cared for, have plenty of everything. Have jobs and their senior citizens are happily retired. I am not saying the USA is such a country, or any other country like this exist. I just want to say that socialism has failed in every single country. Capitalism works much better.
 
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voce

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
3,744
You want the USA to be a socialist country? Name a single socialist country that is prosperous please. Whose citizens are happy, free, well fed, well cared for, have plenty of everything. Have jobs and their senior citizens are happily retired. I am not saying the USA is such a country, or any other country like this exist. I just want to say that socialism has failed in every single country. Capitalism works much better.
What about Scandinavian socialist countries like Finland, Sweden, Norway?

I don't necessarily think Socialism itself is a fail, but social "revolutions" are fails.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
32,104
You want the USA to be a socialist country? Name a single socialist country that is prosperous please. Whose citizens are happy, free, well fed, well cared for, have plenty of everything. Have jobs and their senior citizens are happily retired. I am not saying the USA is such a country, or any other country like this exist. I just want to say that socialism has failed in every single country. Capitalism works much better.
i.e...Venezuela! was once a prosperous country.
 

Musia

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
585
What about Scandinavian socialist countries like Finland, Sweden, Norway?

I don't necessarily think Socialism itself is a fail, but social "revolutions" are fails.
Are they technically socialist countries? I mean no private business? All factories and farms belong to state and run by government? People's property, not a private property, like in the USSR?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states check Wikipedia. Did these Scandinavian countries had their bloody social revolutions? What is the percentage of undocumented people there? That are receiving aid from government?
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
36,419
Missy is this a right time for you to join this kind of peaceful protests? https://www.nationalreview.com/photos/new-york-city-hall-autonomous-zone/#slide-1 How do you want to act right now? Maybe organize a group in your own neighborhood or join the one already actively acting. How do you see you can make rapid changes in society, peoples' mentality or law? Stay on streets till your demands are met? Or ruin everything around? What if the other people are not ready for changes? Will they approve your actions or want positive changes in society if they disapprove the way you act? They will most likely actively oppose you, right?
@Musia it is not OK to stand by and just let things continue IMO. To be silent is to be complicit. I make my voice heard in different ways. All peaceful. I am not violent by nature and I do what I can to make my voice heard. I donate to causes I believe in and I donate to charities that work for matters close to my heart including black lives matter charities. I abhor violence but I do understand why sometimes things turn violent. That is not the same thing as condoning it. But I understand it. When one has been suppressed and on the fringe of things for so very long one can understand.

Status quo is not OK.

neutralisbad.jpg
 

jaaron

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
675
You can leave your degree on the wall - this isn’t a consultation. Besides, education is meaningless to me when someone advocates businesses be looted and set ablaze, public and private property destroyed, and forces neighborhoods to become overrun with crime because someone doesn’t get their way. Generally speaking, violence is only a reasonable response when one’s life is imminently threatened; as soon as you condone it otherwise, you’ve lost all sense of civility in my book. For example, George Floyd’s life was imminently threatened, and those who stood by with their cell phones video recording it could - and should - have fought for his life. The two lawyers who tossed Molotov cocktails in police vehicles ... the people toppling statues and destroying public/private property, their lives weren’t imminently threatened.

I used the term “beliefs” generically, meaning: whatever it is “you” are trying to persuade someone else to see/understand/agree; I thought that was obvious. Just because you think/believe something doesn’t make it fact/right/correct. Regardless, it does not matter what one’s “cause” is: there is a basic, fundamental right and wrong way to effect change. There. Just. Is.

We have equal rights in America, so not sure what is up for debate. Highlighting the lack of gay rights in the Middle East is not “whataboutism” considering this thread was general in nature about slow adoption of ‘social‘ change; you didn’t specify any particular region or country when starting this thread. The U.S. is definitely not the bottom of the barrel when it comes to human & civil rights. China is another shining example of oppression ...

Maybe your goal is to try & cast the U.S. as some horribly oppressive country, but every Hollyweirdo who swore they’d leave the U.S. if Trump got elected still calls it home, and immigrants still want to come live here for some reason ... including U.K.’s Prince & Princess of Sussex who beat feet out of England and now live in the U.S. ... so while it’s not perfect, it‘s definitely not all that bad here.
I'm not really sure how you've either decided I'm condoning violence or taken anything I've said as casting the US as a horribly oppressive country?

I said that it's wrong for some groups of people to have to wait for society to accept that they deserve the same basic rights as everyone else. It's a pretty simple statement that doesn't require, or really even relate to, a wall of words that ranges from the Middle East to China to Megan and Harry to "Hollyweirdos" and the conclusion that I'm saying the US is a horribly oppressive country.

I've also said I understand when people hit a level of frustration that causes them to turn to violence. There's a difference.

I used the term “beliefs” generically, meaning: whatever it is “you” are trying to persuade someone else to see/understand/agree; I thought that was obvious. Just because you think/believe something doesn’t make it fact/right/correct.

You're again missing my point. You're casting the discussion from the basis that this tenet--everyone deserves the same basic rights regardless of colour, gender, ethnicity, sexuality, etc--is a belief. I'm coming at it from the perspective that it's fact: non-white people or gay people or transgender people should not have to persuade other people of their rights or litigate to receive them.
 

jaaron

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
675
It wasn’t intended to be condescending; you assumed it was. I stated what I did about laws because you had stated you lived in the U.K., and as a reminder to the many who live here who seem to have forgotten the purpose of laws.

If we ALL do not have and respect established laws, it doesn’t matter what social change you want or how fast/slow it arrives because it can/will all be undone the moment another group disagrees and decides to destroy, defund and intimidate society to get their way ... because “you” have now made that acceptable.
If you're saying, when the social change I'm talking about is the same basic human rights for all, it can/will be undone the moment another group disagrees, you are not understanding my point. That these rights should be fundamental. They should be accepted fact, not something to be given and taken away.
 

jaaron

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
675
I’m glad she posted it; it’s a necessary reminder that not all cops are evil racists; and, once upon a time, people appreciated their presence and contributions to our communities and civilization.

We just saw what a cop-free community looks like - it’s called CHAZ/CHOP, where 2 people were murdered with no justice for their families. We CAN and should deal with bad cops while ensuring the good cops are supported by communities and community leaders. Defunding the police is a dangerous, politically-motivated, ignorant ‘utopian’ idea that will result in increased crime returning especially to communities formerly plagued by it (the most vulnerable and in need of security), as well as likely injured or dead social workers and counselors who - while “educationally” capable of dealing with a mentally ill person in their office - are not physically capable of managing that situation on their own if/when it goes south. It’s quite a different environment to confront someone “on the street” vs. the couch in their clinic office. Let me guess, a cop escorts them to the scene? Not likely because there won’t be enough cops once the effects of “defunding” are realized through cuts to jobs & resources, and many are retiring in large numbers now.
Oh,please. I won't even take most of this on. But I want to point out that Parkland, Sandy Hook, Las Vegas (gosh this list could go on a long time) all took place in traditionally policed areas. Every death is tragic and awful, but generally you guys are in favour of the 'this isn't the time to politicise this' and lots of thoughts and prayers and let's move on... Guess these deaths are different?
 

jaaron

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
675
What about Scandinavian socialist countries like Finland, Sweden, Norway?

I don't necessarily think Socialism itself is a fail, but social "revolutions" are fails.
I agree. The problem with revolution is that it only focuses on the destruction phase. Destruction without rebuilding only makes things worse. Those models work incredibly well, but they're smaller countries where the socialist initiatives were woven into society. Even I, in my most utopian fantasies, have a hard time seeing it working in the divided US. Although I do think health care for all would be a good place to start, and would possibly begin to heal some of the divisions. Maybe?
 

jaaron

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
675
@Musia it is not OK to stand by and just let things continue IMO. To be silent is to be complicit. I make my voice heard in different ways. All peaceful. I am not violent by nature and I do what I can to make my voice heard. I donate to causes I believe in and I donate to charities that work for matters close to my heart including black lives matter charities. I abhor violence but I do understand why sometimes things turn violent. That is not the same thing as condoning it. But I understand it. When one has been suppressed and on the fringe of things for so very long one can understand.

Status quo is not OK.

neutralisbad.jpg
I think that's really about empathy, Missy. And our world would be better off and a lot of our political divides healed if more people thought the way you do.
 

chemgirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,092
You want the USA to be a socialist country? Name a single socialist country that is prosperous please. Whose citizens are happy, free, well fed, well cared for, have plenty of everything. Have jobs and their senior citizens are happily retired. I am not saying the USA is such a country, or any other country like this exist. I just want to say that socialism has failed in every single country. Capitalism works much better.
The USA is an anomaly when it comes to basic human rights.

Why can’t healthcare and quality education be accessible to everyone? The system is set up in a way that exacerbates generational poverty. There is a segment of the population who are treated like their lives, their futures, are worth less.

There can be positive change without full blown socialism.
 
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the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Messages
6,202
@jaaron You are conflating “social change” and “basic human rights”, but those terms and their meaning are not synonymous.

You said:
You're again missing my point. You're casting the discussion from the basis that this tenet--everyone deserves the same basic rights regardless of colour, gender, ethnicity, sexuality, etc--is a belief. I'm coming at it from the perspective that it's fact: non-white people or gay people or transgender people should not have to persuade other people of their rights or litigate to receive them.
and
If you're saying, when the social change I'm talking about is the same basic human rights for all, it can/will be undone the moment another group disagrees, you are not understanding my point. That these rights should be fundamental. They should be accepted fact, not something to be given and taken away.
What - specifically - are these “basic fundamental human rights“ you believe these groups do not currently have that they should; and specifically, where geographically do they not exist?

You also said:
Oh,please. I won't even take most of this on. But I want to point out that Parkland, Sandy Hook, Las Vegas (gosh this list could go on a long time) all took place in traditionally policed areas. Every death is tragic and awful, but generally you guys are in favour of the 'this isn't the time to politicise this' and lots of thoughts and prayers and let's move on... Guess these deaths are different?
Talk about “whataboutism” with a slice of “stereotyping” on top. Every MURDER is tragic and awful - period. You guys don’t get to mandate how and when people choose to mourn, show respect, feel, etc. any more than I get to mandate how someone who is a POC, gay, etc. should feel about their experiences. It’s offensive that you suggest otherwise.


Now back to the thread topic:

Social change cannot and should not just ‘happen’ overnight. It takes time because it must be thoughtfully and thoroughly researched, studied, vetted, and where possible/necessary, voted on to ensure the proposed change does not create an unintended consequence or negative impact on others, nor strips them of their rights. That is what we HAVE learned from history; and failing to do so leads to rushed policy ineffectively enacted with negative consequences. Case in point: CHAZ/CHOP.

Those deaths are but one example and directly related to this “social change” idea of defunding the police. Those protestors wanted a cop-free zone, and they got one in six small blocks of Seattle ... and two families got two dead men with no justice/answers in less than 3 weeks, not to mention the residents & business owners who were also impacted and intimidated into submission against their will. It may not be possible to prevent every murder, but it is entirely possible and critical to ensure justice is served when it happens. That scores the ‘defund’ movement a major FAIL in my book because it IS also a basic human right to feel safe & secure in one’s community, but ‘defunding’ removes that right.

People who advocate for that kind of “social change” are but one reason people like me own firearms ... to preserve MY basic human right to safety & security when extreme radical ideologists want to strip it away - either intentionally or unintentionally.

What are other examples of “social change” you are concerned are progressing too slowly?
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
6,202
The USA is an anomaly when it comes to basic human rights.

Why can’t healthcare and quality education be accessible to everyone? The system is set up in a way that exacerbates generational poverty. There is a segment of the population who are treated like their lives, their futures, are worth less.

There can be positive change without full blown socialism.
Healthcare and education are accessible to everyone in the U.S. We have a right to equal opportunity, not a right to equal quality.

“Quality” is subjective, and varies from person/community to person/community. If one does not like the quality of the options available to them where they live (or in their budget), it is incumbent on them to either demand better (e.g., from their elected local leaders who manage budgets, educators or health care professionals), or effect change in their personal circumstances to facilitate other/better options.

B5CF29A4-60F9-4AF6-BE7B-9B34CE34B976.jpeg
Peaceful lockdown protesters. Did you think we would forget? Wearing your weapon in this fashion in an act of violence in itself.
It is not an ‘act of violence’ to open carry; it is legal in that state, otherwise they would have all been arrested.

But since you brought this up, how many people were injured, shot, hurt, arrested, and how many businesses were impeded, looted, destroyed, or burned during the peaceful lockdown protests? Nada!

How about the BLM protests?

Guns aren’t the problem - people are.
 

chemgirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
2,092
Healthcare and education are accessible to everyone in the U.S. We have a right to equal opportunity, not a right to equal quality.

“Quality” is subjective, and varies from person/community to person/community. If one does not like the quality of the options available to them where they live (or in their budget), it is incumbent on them to either demand better (e.g., from their elected local leaders who manage budgets, educators or health care professionals), or effect change in their personal circumstances to facilitate other/better options.
This is the problem. People who have been systemically discriminated against can’t just change their circumstance.

Health care is not accessible for everyone in the US. Many people choose between bankruptcy and treatment.

When standard of education is based on where you live, it promotes generational poverty. People often don’t have the option of moving from an area with sub standard schools. This limits the earning potential for the next generation. It’s a cycle.
 
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Musia

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
585
@Musia it is not OK to stand by and just let things continue IMO. To be silent is to be complicit. I make my voice heard in different ways. All peaceful. I am not violent by nature and I do what I can to make my voice heard. I donate to causes I believe in and I donate to charities that work for matters close to my heart including black lives matter charities. I abhor violence but I do understand why sometimes things turn violent. That is not the same thing as condoning it. But I understand it. When one has been suppressed and on the fringe of things for so very long one can understand.

Status quo is not OK.

neutralisbad.jpg
@missy I am also not neutral, I constantly donate to causes I believe in too. I never donated and will never donate to BLM since I believe their money is for sponsoring Biden's campaign (I believe!). Many people are believing it is OK to do so, since Biden will definitely change the status quo. I don't think so (IMHO). But I constantly sponsor several young black veterans who run for Congress, one of them is Joe Collins https://www.facebook.com/CollinsForCongress43/?epa=SEARCH_BOX


I forgot when was the last time I posted something personal on my FB page. I subscribed and joined many groups on FB so I am not learning about injustice in the US from white persons on PS, but from people whose accounts are verified by FB and who are black, Latino or Asian in America. I don't believe BLM organization or movement, or whatever it is going to fix things. But I already hate their violent way of protesting and ruining other black's businesses and lives. I know how hard it was for POC to get educated (yes, not all black people have even High school diploma) and start their businesses and be doing well.
 

Musia

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
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Messages
585
The USA is an anomaly when it comes to basic human rights.
That is what my daughter was taught at liberal University. She didn't buy it.

Then why so many people from other countries are wanting to come here??? Why the people like you are inviting more and more legal and illegal immigrants to this horrible country, why it is a problem to build a wall so less naïve people could come here and face injustice and oppression of their basic human rights???
 

chemgirl

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Messages
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That is what my daughter was taught at liberal University. She didn't buy it.

Then why so many people from other countries are wanting to come here??? Why the people like you are inviting more and more legal and illegal immigrants to this horrible country, why it is a problem to build a wall so less naïve people could come here and face injustice and oppression of their basic human rights???
Sorry I should have specified the USA is an anomaly when compared to other developed countries.

Unfortunately there are countries with more oppression and fewer opportunities. War exists. Genocide exists.

I never said the US was the worst place on earth. It’s all relative.
 
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