So much money! So little idea...

[golfimbul]

Hi.

I''m looking to buy a nice diamond (+ ring) for my girl.

I''ve read too much and am obsessed with only having the best. This of course means:

Round, D, Flawless, Ideal, no fluoro, excellent polish and symmetry. The problem is, I just can''t find the rock that meets those specs (0.8-1c)! Ideally, I would have it set in platinum for whatever that''s worth. My girl doesn''t like big rocks (>1c) due to her line of work + personal preference. Basically I want a perfect diamond in the 0.8 -> 1.0c range.

I''m not in the US (Australia) which of course makes it that little bit more difficult. Tiffany''s here has said that a 0.75 set in their classic platinum (D, IF) would run ~$15,000 (US).

Is there much to be said for Tiffany''s? Do I get a reputable evaluation certificate (GIA or AGS) with a Tiffany diamond? It seems they''re not THAT overpriced for a guarantee of quality (+ snobbery). Or have I really missed some bargains out there? I''ve looked on whiteflash.com and goodoldgold.com + the pricescope search (I find sifting through and finding ideal cuts to be one of the hardest parts)

HELP!!! I feel very confused...

 

[Darthkim]

Hi Golfimbul,

And welcome to pricescope! I think there will be some more knowledgeable people answering your question, but i just have a little to add.

I think you could definitely do better than Tiffany''s, but i''ve read that good stones are notoriously difficult to find in Australia. That makes it a bit tougher and may make the Tiffanys diamonds appear more attractive. I believe they do provide certs. The last one i looked at was a GIA cert.

It''s also admirable that you are looking to get the most flawless diamond, however I think that you will find out that you''ll heavily pay the premium to do so. I recently got a appraisal done on an IF diamond and it showed that the wholesale per carat cost for a 1 - 1.5 carat, IF diamond was 19,800 per carat (I don''t recall if the guide was the rap report or something else. However, it was dated in september 0. Just giving you a frame of reference on what kind of prices you can expect.

Lastly, are you sure that Tiffany''s said that they had a D, IF diamond? I''ve seen a handful of them, but nothing near those specs.

Good luck!

 

[golfimbul]

Thanks for the reply DarthKim...

Well the local tiffany''s I called said she didn''t have one, but could ''source'' one for me from one of their other stores. I''m still waiting to hear how she went actually. But she made it sound as though it wouldn''t be a problem.

The beauty of my scenario is that I am size constrained. My girl has actually said "That looks ridiculous" about mere 1 carat diamonds! I would not dare go over that size, even if I had billions of dollars. Which means that I can take the quality to the top level without blowing the budget... As far as I''m concerned, if I can, I should!

Tiffany''s is appealing for a) brand name, b) matching wedding bands and c) good settings (What exactly do people mean by this though?)

Online stores are appealing for a) read the certification before purchasing (though i would insist on that with Tiffany''s too), b) pricing c) variety

To be honest, if someone could point me to the ''perfect'' stone, I''d probably snap it up. Round, D, Flawless, Ideal/Excellent, no fluoro, excellent polish and symmetry (GIA or AGS)...

 

[arjunajane]

Here are some options - personally, I would urge you to look just a little lower than D IF though - in many people's opinions here, unless it is for cultural reasons, it is pretty much a waste of money..
You can easily go to VVs or even VS and nobody, including yourself and your girl, would be any the wiser. Same goes for E and F colour.
If I were your girl, I'd want you to do that and put the *lots* of money you will save into savings, investment, home , the wedding etc etc.

1ct D IF http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/4955/

0.93 D VVS1 http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/4508/

1.03 E VVS1 http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/197/

I am also Australian and have purchased from GOG - Jon is extremely knowledgeable and helpful, I'm sure you will be happy buying from them.

WF don't seem to have any D's in your specs at the moment, but here is a link to some F VVS2's

http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/Default.aspx

I have also purchased from WF, and was very impressed with their products and service.
They have branded ideal cuts, ACA's, which are among the top cut stones in the world.

Please feel free to ask any other questions you need.
hth

ETA: oh yeah, and there is no need to exclude stones because of fluoro - anything up to strong will often not be noticeable at all, so faint and medium should be safe.
Infact, most here prefer stones with fluor, and the general public usually misunderstand this property of diamonds. Just do a search for some threads.

 

[Lorelei]

Welcome!

It is a question of priorities, if Tiffany have what you are looking for and you value the brand name, then it may be worth it to you. You could try Garry Holloway who posts here, he is in Melbourne - I don't know if that is near you, but he may be able to help you. As to your specs that is fine if that is what you prefer - you could drop both colour and clarity if you wished, but it doesn't sound as if you do, so my advice is try to find the best cut D F/ IF you can to bring out the true beauty of your precious diamond.

www.preciousmetals.com.au

 

[golfimbul]

I guess I''m not sure how much she or I value the Tiffany name... What do people mean when they talk about their awesome ''settings'' though? Does that mean the diamond doesn''t come loose or something? Because it must be horrible to lose the expensive little critters!

I''ve found a nice one... Here''s the GIA report:

Round Brilliant
Measurements: 6.27 - 6.31 x 3.79 mm
Carat Weight: 0.90
Color Grade: D
Clarity Grade: FL
Cut Grade: Excellent

Proportions:
Depth: 60.3 %
Table: 58 %
Crown Angle: 33.5°
Crown Height: 13.5 %
Pavilion Angle: 41.2°
Pavilion Depth: 43.5 %
Star length: 50 %
Lower Half: 80 %
Girdle: Thin to Medium, Faceted
Culet: None

Finish:
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None

Is this a good buy for a touch under $15,000 (US)? Seems ''perfect''?

Anything in there to worry about?

Are there any tax implications (positive or negative) for Aussies ordering from the US? Do Blue Nile make nice rings, or should I be trying to have the diamond mounted in Oz? (All hypotheticals at this point of course!)

 

[HoneyBella]

I ran the numbers through the HCA and it scored a 2.5 VG,VG,VG,EX and in the AGA it scores a 1B. The HCA suggests that you cull out the stones that score > 2 but I''m sure more qualified residents on this forum will chime in with their recommendations.

 

[golfimbul]

Date: 9/22/2008 7:39:42 AM
Author: HoneyBella
I ran the numbers through the HCA and it scored a 2.5 VG,VG,VG,EX and in the AGA it scores a 1B. The HCA suggests that you cull out the stones that score > 2 but I''m sure more qualified residents on this forum will chime in with their recommendations.

That''s a little bit disappointing...

What is the Holloway Cut Analyser though? Is it more important than the GIA grading?

I did notice the following on the Holloway calculator though... " The result is for a symmetrical diamond with a medium girdle and very good polish " whereas this diamond has a thin to medium girdle. Would that make much of a difference?

 

[Regular Guy]

I''m with Honeybella, having checked the stats on that one...also going to BN, and seeing that the only one with those stats.

Would be a shame to spend so much seeking the best in color & clarity, and suffer for the most important quality...cut.

An interesting experiment...I also went over to James Allen...and they sported 15 options, all GIA, to review. You''d have to look at them one by one to see which was best...but I''ll bet one of them will be better. Most are cheaper, too, and JA has a good reputation here.

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 9/22/2008 7:47:00 AM
Author: golfimbul

Date: 9/22/2008 7:39:42 AM

Author: HoneyBella

I ran the numbers through the HCA and it scored a 2.5 VG,VG,VG,EX and in the AGA it scores a 1B. The HCA suggests that you cull out the stones that score > 2 but I'm sure more qualified residents on this forum will chime in with their recommendations.

That's a little bit disappointing...

What is the Holloway Cut Analyser though? Is it more important than the GIA grading?


I did notice the following on the Holloway calculator though... ' The result is for a symmetrical diamond with a medium girdle and very good polish ' whereas this diamond has a thin to medium girdle. Would that make much of a difference?

It is the assumption made by the calculator. It's calculations will be fine as long as the gridle is not in the thick to very thick range, in the ideal girdle thickness range.

Yes, I would not trust GIA excellent cut grading, their range of what is considered excellent is a little large for most PSers, some of these stones can even score a 5+ in HCA, which is almost as bad as it can get.

 

[golfimbul]

You''ll have to pardon my confusion (I''m a total amateur), but I thought that GIA or AGS certification was the gold standard for diamonds?

Why disregard the ''gold standard'' which has handled, analysed and studied the stone and declared it virtually perfect for the sake of an online calculator (which is entirely based on theory)?

I repeat, I am a total amateur and there are probably very good reasons that I just don''t know about. I ask only to learn so I can best choose the perfect diamond...

 

[stone-cold11]

Blue Nile rings are mostly generic. You can view them when you go to the setting of the create your own ring section. They don''t do custom design. I think there is custom to consider. The other Aussies will be able to tell you more about that.

 

[HoneyBella]

Its clear that you have the money to burn if you are chasing an IF but just a suggestion... why not broaden your scope to say a minimum VS1 in the D/E/F colourless range and go for an exceptional cut?

That way you will still have that eye clean, white stone that will out gun a D/IF average/poor cut and have spare cash to really spoil your girl and make her feel all warm n fuzzy

My 2c

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 9/22/2008 8:03:37 AM
Author: golfimbul
You'll have to pardon my confusion (I'm a total amateur), but I thought that GIA or AGS certification was the gold standard for diamonds?

Why disregard the 'gold standard' which has handled, analysed and studied the stone and declared it virtually perfect for the sake of an online calculator (which is entirely based on theory)?

I repeat, I am a total amateur and there are probably very good reasons that I just don't know about. I ask only to learn so I can best choose the perfect diamond...

Call it David & Goliath...but you are here. Pricescope sort of helps host the HCA calculator.

Lots to read, including this.

We think David is ahead by a good measure.

(edited to add)...btw, GIA has improved over the years...though I think still the most clear improvement you could say for it is that it now actually provides the crown & paviliion data that it did not used to do...so you can actually use the HCA. But...you are actually smart to mention AGS, too. We also thing AGS 0 trumps HCA...so it's not all bigotry. Also, these tool creator are mostly friends.

 

[golfimbul]

Thanks for the link, a good read to be sure. Sounds like a controversial topic!

Take home message seems to be summarised in the table with the GIA cut grading overlapping the AGS cut gradings... AGS > GIA is what I took from that!

The trouble is, it''s very difficult to find many AGS graded stones (that I can find at least).

I still have my heart set on a round, D, flawless (or AGS equivalent) AGS0 diamond of ~0.9 carat size.

I just think it would be a wonderful thing to pass a ''perfect'' diamond down through generations... (With the certificate to prove it!)

 

[stone-cold11]

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-or-less-ideal-cut-d-color-if-clarity_LD01411387?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0

Then try this out. All your specs.

 

[Lorelei]

I don't know what your budget is, but this one ticks all the boxes and also has a perfect cut - it has med blue fluorescence but that may not be an issue with such a stunning gem...

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/4955/

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 9/22/2008 8:39:46 AM
Author: golfimbul

The trouble is, it''s very difficult to find many AGS graded stones (that I can find at least).

I still have my heart set on a round, D, flawless (or AGS equivalent) AGS0 diamond of ~0.9 carat size.

Golf...

I think we''re encouraging to still consider GIA options, but run them through the HCA...at least to consider it a starter. I saw 15 on JA''s site.

Oui?

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 9/22/2008 9:18:45 AM
Author: Lorelei
I don''t know what your budget is, but this one ticks all the boxes and also has a perfect cut - it has med blue fluorescence but that may not be an issue with such a stunning gem...


http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/4955/

WoW! That''s is a perfect stone and some serious cash involve... Wonder how long it is going to stay on market...

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/22/2008 9:18:45 AM
Author: Lorelei
I don''t know what your budget is, but this one ticks all the boxes and also has a perfect cut - it has med blue fluorescence but that may not be an issue with such a stunning gem...

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/4955/

I would seriously consider this one. It''s a very well cut stone. Call and ask to speak to Jon about the flo, because at medium, there is a very good chance it will be undetectable.

 

[Lorelei]

Thanks SC and El, that is a beautiful stone and as close to perfection as one is likely to see I think!

 

[Pandora II]

Date: 9/22/2008 8:39:46 AM
Author: golfimbul
Thanks for the link, a good read to be sure. Sounds like a controversial topic!

Take home message seems to be summarised in the table with the GIA cut grading overlapping the AGS cut gradings... AGS > GIA is what I took from that!

The trouble is, it''s very difficult to find many AGS graded stones (that I can find at least).

I still have my heart set on a round, D, flawless (or AGS equivalent) AGS0 diamond of ~0.9 carat size.

I just think it would be a wonderful thing to pass a ''perfect'' diamond down through generations... (With the certificate to prove it!)

Just remember that an IF diamond may well not score IF years down the line! Diamonds, can scratch, chip, break etc

Also worth knowing that diamond clarity grades only mean what can be seen under x10 magnification - it will almost certainly show flaws at higher magnification.

 

[Regular Guy]

I could be wrong, but I''ll bet Golf is the buyer of one of these 15 on the JA site. It is odd...one diamond seems to have two reference numbers...but share one GIA report. Anyway, somebody got it. It''s an FIC, and I think would perform well...

 

[Kelli]

Personally I do not care about the tiffany name. In MOST circumstances, I would definitely NOT buy a D IF diamond, as it is paying for quality that no one will ever see. However, in your case, if you are really really determined to spend all that extra money, than I guess go for it!! That GoodOldGold one looks pretty awesome.

 

[golfimbul]

Date: 9/22/2008 9:43:57 AM
Author: Regular Guy

Date: 9/22/2008 8:39:46 AM
Author: golfimbul

The trouble is, it''s very difficult to find many AGS graded stones (that I can find at least).

I still have my heart set on a round, D, flawless (or AGS equivalent) AGS0 diamond of ~0.9 carat size.

Golf...

I think we''re encouraging to still consider GIA options, but run them through the HCA...at least to consider it a starter. I saw 15 on JA''s site.

Oui?

That 1 carat is a little exxy and I really think 0.9 or so would be the limit size wise. Fortunately her tastes lie slightly below the exponentially expensive price increase for size!

Let me understand the principles here before I ask you about the next diamond. GIA grading = Good for colour, clarity, polish, symmetry etc but bad for cut. AGS = Good for everything. Holloway cut analyser is a good ''verification'' tool of the offical grading?

My problem is this. I''ve found a beautiful 0.9 carat diamond (D, IF, Excellent polish and symmetry) but GIA has graded it a ''very good'' cut. However, if I run it through the Holloway Cut Analyser, it gives a score of 0.8 and ex,ex,ex,vg!!! Does this mean this diamond is probably a ''bargain''?

It''s available on whiteflash (I don''t have the details on me)... Would they send a diamond for AGS grading on request? I''d be happy to pay a little more, just nice to get an official AGS-0 for cut I think...

The other question is, do Tiffany''s set loose diamonds? Who is considered the ''best'' ring makers/setters?

So many questions, sorry!

 

[stone-cold11]

maybe it got a thicker than ideal girdle thickness? That will hide some mass in your stone, making it look smaller than an ideal cut of that size.

 

[golfimbul]

Found the details:

Round Brilliant
Measurements: 6.19 - 6.23 x 3.82 mm
Carat Weight: 0.90
Color Grade: D
Clarity Grade: IF
Cut Grade: Very Good

Proportions:
Depth: 61.5 %
Table: 56 %
Crown Angle: 36°
Crown Height: 16 %
Pavilion Angle: 40.2°
Pavilion Depth: 42 %
Star length: 55 %
Lower Half: 80 %
Girdle: Thin to Slightly Thick, Faceted
Culet: None

Finish:
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None

Clarity Characteristics:
Comments: Minor details of polish are present.

Does that sound alright? Do you think whiteflash (or any of the others who have it listed, whiteflash just seems to have a very good rep on these boards) would oblige me by sending it off to AGS and getting it re-certified? Seems like worth doing, considering I''d have to buy the diamond sight unseen.

 

[Lorelei]

The pavilion angle is shallow, but ask the guys at WF to evaluate this diamond for you. ETA- why would you want it regraded?

 

[Regular Guy]

Golf...good to see WF has this also. It is, I believe the one I saw at JA.

If you observe "where the x" falls on the HCA site (I''m recalling now) it is outside the AGS0 box, so it would not get the data you''re asking for.

Do review further.

I think you''ll be good for having VG and meeting the HCA under 2 target.

You''d be getting an FIC rather than an AGS0...and you can read here about whether you think that''s reasonable or not.

Given that you do seem to want to have the other criteria met...of .9 ish, D, and IF...and your universe of quality options...I DO think this is a fine choice.

 

[stone-cold11]

Ya, FIC cut, this kind of cut generally has more hidden mass compared to the normal cut. http://diamonds.pricescope.com/crn_pav.asp

So you will be getting a smaller face up size diamond compared to a TIC cut. Probably not a good ideal to request resubmission to AGS, will probably get a grade of AGS1 for this.