Should I be concerned about the feather?

[chiquitapet]

Hi everyone! We are getting an e-ring upgrade for our 5th anniversary. I`ve been searching through a lot of stones by this particular vendor (MDX) and found this one. It is 1.25 G VS2 ICE GIA Excellent RB, scores HCA 1 and is at very good price. My only concern is a long feather as seen on the GIA certificate. Would this bother you? Should I look for another one?

Thanks in advance for your opinions!

 

[stone-cold11]

VS2 stone should not be a problem. If it is a problem, it will not be a VS2. But if you are still concern about it, check with the vendor or get it independently appraised.

 

[chiquitapet]

Thanks for your reply, Stone-cold. I was actually surprised that a VS2 stone can have such a significant feather... I`m almost wondering if it should have been graded as SI1. I have contacted the vendor and still awaiting their reply but I`d be surprised if they can help much at this stage as the stone is in the USA.

 

[stone-cold11]

Usually clarity grade is from table up so if the feather is not visible from the table it will not be a factor but from what I understand if the inclusions results in durability issue it will be downgraded to a lower grade.

 

[Lorelei]

VS2 feather should not be a problem, if it reaches the surface it will be marked in green but this is rare in VS clarity grades by all accounts. Get an independant appraiser to take a look if you are concerned and make sure you have a return policy.

 

[tallchickbarbara]

Date: 9/17/2009 5:18:28 AM
Author: Lorelei
VS2 feather should not be a problem, if it reaches the surface it will be marked in green but this is rare in VS clarity grades by all accounts. Get an independant appraiser to take a look if you are concerned and make sure you have a return policy.

I was always under the impression that all feathers actually do break the surface at some point - am I wrong on that?

In any case I overall agree with the crowd and think that, especially being on the pavilion side of the stone, you likely would not have an issue with this particular feather. I think you might be surprised at how small it will look in person as compared to how large it looks on the plotting.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 9/17/2009 9:40:46 AM
Author: BarbaraP

Date: 9/17/2009 5:18:28 AM
Author: Lorelei
VS2 feather should not be a problem, if it reaches the surface it will be marked in green but this is rare in VS clarity grades by all accounts. Get an independant appraiser to take a look if you are concerned and make sure you have a return policy.

I was always under the impression that all feathers actually do break the surface at some point - am I wrong on that?

In any case I overall agree with the crowd and think that, especially being on the pavilion side of the stone, you likely would not have an issue with this particular feather. I think you might be surprised at how small it will look in person as compared to how large it looks on the plotting.

I don''t think all do from my learnings here but of course I could be wrong! Be interested to know for sure though!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/17/2009 9:40:46 AM
Author: BarbaraP

Date: 9/17/2009 5:18:28 AM

Author: Lorelei

VS2 feather should not be a problem, if it reaches the surface it will be marked in green but this is rare in VS clarity grades by all accounts. Get an independant appraiser to take a look if you are concerned and make sure you have a return policy.

I was always under the impression that all feathers actually do break the surface at some point - am I wrong on that?


In any case I overall agree with the crowd and think that, especially being on the pavilion side of the stone, you likely would not have an issue with this particular feather. I think you might be surprised at how small it will look in person as compared to how large it looks on the plotting.

There are internal feathers.
They are often healed feathers that the diamond grew around and enclosed.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/17/2009 5:18:28 AM
Author: Lorelei
VS2 feather should not be a problem, if it reaches the surface it will be marked in green but this is rare in VS clarity grades by all accounts.

not always, it pays to have it looked at.
feathers open to the pavilion are often not an issue, a feather open to the crown can be a serious problem.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/16/2009 5:06:11 AM
Author:chiquitapet
Hi everyone! We are getting an e-ring upgrade for our 5th anniversary. I`ve been searching through a lot of stones by this particular vendor (MDX) and found this one. It is 1.25 G VS2 ICE GIA Excellent RB, scores HCA 1 and is at very good price. My only concern is a long feather as seen on the GIA certificate. Would this bother you? Should I look for another one?


Thanks in advance for your opinions!

does mdx have it in stock to look at or is it a virtual stone?

 

[tallchickbarbara]

Date: 9/17/2009 11:30:59 AM
Author: strmrdr

There are internal feathers.
They are often healed feathers that the diamond grew around and enclosed.

Strm...

Would those types of inclusions not be considered stress fractures though, which, to the best of my knowledge would still be plotted as crystals by the GIA? After reading your reply I asked both of my former GIA clarity graders on staff and they both agreed that feathers are only plotted as feathers if they break the surface.

Or can Misters Sherwood or Atlas weigh in on this because now I''m really intrigued/confused.

(I will go on the record as saying that being intrigued/confused is not a huge stretch for me, however).

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 9/17/2009 12:27:37 PM
Author: BarbaraP
Would those types of inclusions not be considered stress fractures though, which, to the best of my knowledge would still be plotted as crystals by the GIA? After reading your reply I asked both of my former GIA clarity graders on staff and they both agreed that feathers are only plotted as feathers if they break the surface.

Or can Misters Sherwood or Atlas weigh in on this because now I''m really intrigued/confused.

(I will go on the record as saying that being intrigued/confused is not a huge stretch for me, however).

Perhaps the GIA clarity graders on your staff misunderstood the question... Because they definitely didn''t answer the question correctly! Feathers can be internal and/or they may break the surface.

And only diamond crystals are plotted as crystals... If an inclusion is a feather, it will be plotted as a feather.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 9/17/2009 11:33:36 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/17/2009 5:18:28 AM
Author: Lorelei
VS2 feather should not be a problem, if it reaches the surface it will be marked in green but this is rare in VS clarity grades by all accounts.

not always, it pays to have it looked at.
feathers open to the pavilion are often not an issue, a feather open to the crown can be a serious problem.

Let me rephrase that slightly, VS feathers * should* not be a problem, but of course there can always be exceptions

, also I was referring to the diamond above in this instance.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/17/2009 12:56:10 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 9/17/2009 11:33:36 AM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/17/2009 5:18:28 AM

Author: Lorelei

VS2 feather should not be a problem, if it reaches the surface it will be marked in green but this is rare in VS clarity grades by all accounts.

not always, it pays to have it looked at.

feathers open to the pavilion are often not an issue, a feather open to the crown can be a serious problem.

Let me rephrase that slightly, VS feathers * should* not be a problem, but of course there can always be exceptions

.

it was the marked in green I was commenting on, gia does not always get that right.
vs2 feathers are most of the time not an issue is correct.
I wasn''t clear also.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 9/17/2009 12:59:25 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/17/2009 12:56:10 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 9/17/2009 11:33:36 AM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/17/2009 5:18:28 AM

Author: Lorelei

VS2 feather should not be a problem, if it reaches the surface it will be marked in green but this is rare in VS clarity grades by all accounts.

not always, it pays to have it looked at.

feathers open to the pavilion are often not an issue, a feather open to the crown can be a serious problem.

Let me rephrase that slightly, VS feathers * should* not be a problem, but of course there can always be exceptions

.

it was the marked in green I was commenting on, gia does not always get that right.
vs2 feathers are most of the time not an issue is correct.
I wasn''t clear also.

Okydokes!

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/17/2009 11:33:36 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/17/2009 5:18:28 AM
Author: Lorelei
VS2 feather should not be a problem, if it reaches the surface it will be marked in green but this is rare in VS clarity grades by all accounts.

not always, it pays to have it looked at.
feathers open to the pavilion are often not an issue, a feather open to the crown can be a serious problem.

I am curious. Why would an open feather on the crown be a serious problem, potentially, but one of the pavilion probably not?

Wink

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/17/2009 1:10:55 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/17/2009 11:33:36 AM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/17/2009 5:18:28 AM

Author: Lorelei

VS2 feather should not be a problem, if it reaches the surface it will be marked in green but this is rare in VS clarity grades by all accounts.

not always, it pays to have it looked at.

feathers open to the pavilion are often not an issue, a feather open to the crown can be a serious problem.

I am curious. Why would an open feather on the crown be a serious problem, potentially, but one of the pavilion probably not?


Wink

water and condensation and temperature changes.
open to the crown it never drains and is much more likely to get liquid in it.
Also an impact right on the open part of the feather causing it to expand is possible on the crown where the pavilion is protected by the setting.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/17/2009 1:24:17 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/17/2009 1:10:55 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 9/17/2009 11:33:36 AM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/17/2009 5:18:28 AM

Author: Lorelei

VS2 feather should not be a problem, if it reaches the surface it will be marked in green but this is rare in VS clarity grades by all accounts.

not always, it pays to have it looked at.

feathers open to the pavilion are often not an issue, a feather open to the crown can be a serious problem.

I am curious. Why would an open feather on the crown be a serious problem, potentially, but one of the pavilion probably not?


Wink

water and condensation and temperature changes.
open to the crown it never drains and is much more likely to get liquid in it.
Also an impact right on the open part of the feather causing it to expand is possible on the crown where the pavilion is protected by the setting.

Okay, I will grant you the bottom sentence. Although unlikely, a direct hit at the right angle with enough force could cause a stone to cleave at the point of the feather, it does happen, rarely, especially with something as small as a VS2 feather. Of course with enough force at the right angle, the diamond could easily cleave with or without a feather.

I do have a problem with the top sentence however.

One, it would be highly unlikely that water would enter a VS2 feather unless there was also an open pit at the top of the feather. Maybe one of our chemists or physicists could assist us here, but I believe that the majority of VS feathers would be too narrow to accommodate water molecules unless injected under high temperature or pressure. I believe that this would also be influenced by the fact that diamonds repel water and attract grease, it used to be one of the ways that they were separated from the gem bearing gravel at the mines.

If such conditions did happen to the diamond, capillary action would prevent the water from either a crown or pavilion feather from draining, although eventually it would dry out and disappear. The only time this could possibly be a problem would be if the wearer were to work somewhere cold enough to freeze the water inside the diamond or if you put the diamond in the freezer to hide it while there was water in it.

All in all I would say that it is not likely to be a serious problem, crown or pavilion. In a larger and possibly wider feather in an SI1, SI2 or I1, I2 or I3 diamond I would see this as a much more realistic scenario, but I believe that with possibly a VERY few exceptions that it is highly unlikely to be an issue, crown or pavilion in a VS2 stone.

Given my druthers of course, I would rather have it on the pavilion to avoid even the misicule possibility of a striking of the stone right on the crown feather, but in reality I would not loose any sleep over a feather in a VS2 diamond unless I looked at it and felt it was a lucky grade.

Wink

 

[strmrdr]

Hi Wink in an otherwise perfect stone with a crown open vs2 feather I would consider it and insure it and not lose any sleep either.
But since no 2 feathers are the same I would want an opinion on it from someone looking at the stone that I trust or to evaluate it myself.
For example one thing to consider, does it have a cavity or pit at the mouth of the feather?

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/17/2009 2:44:22 PM
Author: strmrdr
Hi Wink in an otherwise perfect stone with a crown open vs2 feather I would consider it and insure it and not lose any sleep either.
But since no 2 feathers are the same I would want an opinion on it from someone looking at the stone that I trust or to evaluate it myself.
For example one thing to consider, does it have a cavity or pit at the mouth of the feather?

And that, my friend, is why we have all those independant appraisers. On this you and I are in agreement. Either know enough to look at it yourself, or deal with someone you trust, and if you are really concerned then have an independant opinion. Trusting your vendor and having independant verification are NOT mutually exclusive.

Wink

 

[tallchickbarbara]

Date: 9/17/2009 12:38:57 PM
Author: Todd Gray

Perhaps the GIA clarity graders on your staff misunderstood the question... Because they definitely didn''t answer the question correctly! Feathers can be internal and/or they may break the surface.

And only diamond crystals are plotted as crystals... If an inclusion is a feather, it will be plotted as a feather.

Hi Todd,

Okay... I did ask again individually based on your reply, and both answered exactly the same. One worked in Carlsbad and the other in New York, and both at different times. They stated that they absolutely would not plot something as a feather unless it reached the surface or started from the surface, as per what was taught to them by the GIA.

I also checked numerous glossaries and found similar definitions. One example is below taken from The Diamond Buying Guide:

"Feathers: These are small fractures in a diamond. They are usually caused by the tremendous stress that the diamond suffered while it was growing underground. In some cases the feather both begins and ends within the diamond''s surface and, in other cases, the feather begins inside the diamond and extends to the surface. When viewed under magnification, some feathers are transparent and others have a light white appearance to them. The term "feather" comes from the fact that, under magnification, these fractures often seem to have an indistinct, feathery shape to them. While the idea of buying a diamond with "fractures" may sound scary, the reality is that, with normal wear and care, most feathers pose no risk to the diamond''s stability. Consider this: even with the feathers, these diamonds survived their growth and their journey to the surface intact. Once on the surface, they also survived the mining process, as well as the brutal stresses of the diamond cutting process."

So when you say that they "definitely didn''t answer that correctly", may I ask why you believe that? And this is genuinely something that I now have doubts about and have started to second guess myself on because I have always believed it to be as stated above, and would hate to have given the wrong information.

 

[WinkHPD]

Barbara,

One of the things that I find most wonderful about our business is that you can pick up the phone and call the Dieties at AGS and GIA and talk with them. Both Peter Yantzer at AGS and his brother at GIA are very approachable people.

If you have a question and want clarification as to TODAY''s interpretation which may or may not be different than yesterdays, pick up the phone and talk to these wonderful people! I know of no other industry that is so transparent and willing to help those of us in the trenches.

Wink

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Although the vast majority of feathers are surface breaking, I've seen feathers which were entirely internal. Both are partially healed stress fractures, which in the case of an internal feather the diamond has crystallized beyond the extent of the feather.

If there's another name for it (internal feather) I don't know it. I plot it in red with the comment that it is an internal, non-surface breaking feather.

As far as I know, feathers are plotted in red, even if they break the surface. They are still considered an internal characteristic (shown in red) rather than a blemish (external characteristic shown in green).

If you see a green line on a graph it is usually a scratch, or has something to do with a natural or a cavity.

Barbara, intrigued/confused looks good on you.

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 9/17/2009 3:08:23 PM
Author: BarbaraP

Date: 9/17/2009 12:38:57 PM

Author: Todd Gray

Perhaps the GIA clarity graders on your staff misunderstood the question... Because they definitely didn''t answer the question correctly! Feathers can be internal and/or they may break the surface.

And only diamond crystals are plotted as crystals... If an inclusion is a feather, it will be plotted as a feather.

Hi Todd,

Okay... I did ask again individually based on your reply, and both answered exactly the same. One worked in Carlsbad and the other in New York, and both at different times. They stated that they absolutely would not plot something as a feather unless it reached the surface or started from the surface, as per what was taught to them by the GIA.

I also checked numerous glossaries and found similar definitions. One example is below taken from The Diamond Buying Guide:

''Feathers: These are small fractures in a diamond. They are usually caused by the tremendous stress that the diamond suffered while it was growing underground. In some cases the feather both begins and ends within the diamond''s surface and, in other cases, the feather begins inside the diamond and extends to the surface. When viewed under magnification, some feathers are transparent and others have a light white appearance to them. The term ''feather'' comes from the fact that, under magnification, these fractures often seem to have an indistinct, feathery shape to them. While the idea of buying a diamond with ''fractures'' may sound scary, the reality is that, with normal wear and care, most feathers pose no risk to the diamond''s stability. Consider this: even with the feathers, these diamonds survived their growth and their journey to the surface intact. Once on the surface, they also survived the mining process, as well as the brutal stresses of the diamond cutting process.''

So when you say that they ''definitely didn''t answer that correctly'', may I ask why you believe that? And this is genuinely something that I now have doubts about and have started to second guess myself on because I have always believed it to be as stated above, and would hate to have given the wrong information.

I''ve just moved into a new office Barbara and think that my GIA course books are still at the house, but I''ll try to look for them tonight. My understanding and obviously my belief is that feathers can be located entirely within the body of the diamond and do not necessarily have to break the surface of the diamond. This belief is supported by the fact that I have photographed many, many diamonds with feathers and I routinely reject diamonds with extensive feathers that break the surface of the diamond which can be determined by rocking the diamond back and forth under magnification so that the light reflects off the surface. Since many of the diamonds I see graded by the GIA and AGS indicate feathers which often do not seem to break the surface of the diamond, I don''t know how the definition could be restricted to inclusions which reach the surface.

And if this is the case, then what do we call the "feathers" which are located well within the body of the diamond? I''ve seen many diamonds with feathers located well within the pavilion of the diamond accompanied by GIA and AGS lab reports which refer to the inclusions as feathers...

This statement from Photo Masters for Diamond Grading by Gary A. Roskin, G.G., F.G.A. is supportive of my belief that feathers may be located entirely within the body of a diamond or break the surface... On Page 33 of his book, he is talking about feathers and how some feathers can be colored by foreign substances, the last paragraph says "the former can be possibly removed with deep boiling in acid, if it breaks the surface, but the latter can not.

 

[tallchickbarbara]

Thanks to both Rich and Todd for their responses. This might make for a good additional thread as I''d still love to hear from Dave Atlas and think I''m going to delve into my books as well for further research.

And Rich, you should see my "perplexed/bewildered"... it''s to die for.

 

[John P]

I can help but it may not help.

Barbara is correct. In my GIA coursework - and I raised my hand to make Ric Taylor repeat this - it was stated that feathers MUST reach the surface.

But Todd and Rich are correct too. We have all seen diamonds where a crystal inclusion expanded to cause a feather in a stone that is completely internal - and it's called a feather on the plot, even at GIA.

I know I sound like DiaGem here (is that a bad thing?

) but I must proclaim this as one of those areas where the company line that is taught and what happens in reality are not in perfect harmony.

 

[glitterata]

So John, what do they call featherlike inclusions that don''t break the surface, if all feathers by definition break the surface?

 

[John P]

Date: 9/17/2009 7:48:03 PM
Author: glitterata
So John, what do they call featherlike inclusions that don''t break the surface, if all feathers by definition break the surface?

That''s the rub Glitterata. The internal examples I''ve seen IRL since taking the coursework are still called feathers.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 9/17/2009 4:01:36 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
Although the vast majority of feathers are surface breaking, I've seen feathers which were entirely internal. Both are partially healed stress fractures, which in the case of an internal feather the diamond has crystallized beyond the extent of the feather.

If there's another name for it (internal feather) I don't know it. I plot it in red with the comment that it is an internal, non-surface breaking feather.

As far as I know, feathers are plotted in red, even if they break the surface. They are still considered an internal characteristic (shown in red) rather than a blemish (external characteristic shown in green).

If you see a green line on a graph it is usually a scratch, or has something to do with a natural or a cavity.

Barbara, intrigued/confused looks good on you.

Ok now I am confused, Garry posted in this thread recently concerning the feather in question " it is good that they are red though - green means it reaches the surface."


https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/question-about-si2-feather.125162/

So just to clarify, if a feather does reach the surface it won't be plotted in green in any way? I just want to know so I am offering the best advice.

 

[tallchickbarbara]

Date: 9/17/2009 3:17:01 PM
Author: Wink
Barbara,

One of the things that I find most wonderful about our business is that you can pick up the phone and call the Dieties at AGS and GIA and talk with them. Both Peter Yantzer at AGS and his brother at GIA are very approachable people.

Thanks, Wink. I took your advice and had one of my Consultants shoot an email over to Carlsbad to ask the question on UD''s behalf. Below is the response she received:

From: Katherine Katsune
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 6:26 PM
To: Leah Cawley
Subject: RE: question

Dear Leah,

Thank you for your inquiry. All feathers break the surface of the diamond.

Best wishes,

Kathy
__________________________________
Kathy Katsune
Gemological Services Coordinator
GIA Laboratory
Gemological Institute of America (GIA)
5355 Armada Drive
Carlsbad, California 92008


I believe John''s response also suggests that this is indeed something taught by the GIA to graders/Gemologists. It was my belief based on the GIA''s information that even if a feather appears to be completely internal under 10x magnification, microscopically, it still reaches some surface of the stone.