Should I be concerned about icestore?

[Rook]

Morgan,

I think it wise of you to take your business else where. I can not believe the unethical and reprehensible sales tactics displayed by the sales person you spoke with. Not that the company as a whole has that attitude, but the fact they employ even one sales person who would stoop to the tactics of a used car salesman is enough to lose my business.

While I agree with Rich that it is good that the company will tighten up its procedures (at least it appears so)due to this incident, they will need to prove it and earn respect again before I would suggest anyone buying from them. Also, a company that agrees to fix a problem after the problems has become public knowledge on a bb like Pricescope is not really fixing the problem. Most of the time they are simply trying to save face. Sometimes problems happen, but a good company will fix them because they are a good company, not because they are receiving bad publicity. Was seperates a good company from a bad company is how they deal with situations gone awry.

It is exactly situations like these that I think B&M, even internet B&M stores) that actually carry their own inventory are the way to go. I have dealt with dozens of internet vendors in my search for a diamond, and typically the internet "brokers" who sell other peoples diamonds, would tend to offer less quality service. Of course not all are this way, but most of them I dealt with.

Just my opinion.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Rook as you probably know I operate an upmarket amazingly high sevrice pair of stores.
We get emails from all around the world, sometimes we see the CC list and the same request has been sent to >20 other jewellers. If we were polite and answered every one of those emails we would never give our face to face customers the service they deserve.
I know that there is a similar problem faced by e-tailers. If they suspect that a consumer is shopping and comparing 10 other sources, then they might use some 'tactics' to find out how serious the customer is and where they stand.

Rook I have not read all the words in this thread, but just because one employee did or did not make a misjudgement does not mean that the whole business stinks.

As I understand it Morgan is now dealing with fringe wholesalers who know didly squat about diamond cut quality. I offered him some advice politely about using the two labs (including Roy's) who are the only Sydneysiders with Sarin facilities. From my experiance less than 10% of diamonds imported into Aussie are within a bulls roar of well cut.
Good luck Morgan, you'l ned it mate!

 

[Rook]

I have no problem with sales tactics that are meant to get a feel of the consumer's willingness to buy, as long as they do not fall to a scrupuless and possibly fraudulent means, as may arguable have happened here. And, I did not say that the industry is all like this, but that many times, internet diamond companies who only sell other peoples goods are forced into these situations, by their own design. Also, I am not knocking all internet vendors either. Quite a few of the internet vendors on this site actually own the stones, or have them in stock. My feeling is that these types of vendors are better to work with. In fact I have bought on-line and I am very happy I did.

Also, I highly doubt you would use such a tactic to sell a diamond! Not being able to answer every request promptly due to high service is understandable. Telling a consumer that you must buy this diamond now because it will sell tomorrow, and there is no time to get a sarin report, is an underhanded tactic to pray on the uneducated impulse buyer. That is a line I would expect from mall store or a diamond district, not a reputable sales person.

Similar tactics in the U.S. financial market has caused many lawsuits and fines.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 4/4/2003 5

8

5 PM Cut Nut wrote:

Rook I have not read all the words in this thread, but just because one employee did or did not make a misjudgement does not mean that the whole business stinks.

----------------

Gary, I do agree with you in theory...a mistake by one employee doesn't necessarily mean a whole business stinks.

However, when that is one's first exposure with a business, and it happens in a industry where the general public already has an inherent fear of getting fleeced (either by being overcharged or misled about the quality of the stone), it's awfully tough to overcome one's poor first impression.

Some mistakes are different than others. I'm more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a mistake such as....the stone was of lesser quality than initially represented. I recognize that that could be an honest mistake due to the subjective nature of grading.

I'm fairly unlikely to give the benefit of the doubt to a "mistake" in attitude...."if you don't hurry and buy NOW, the stone will be gone to your forever because stones sell out soooo fast." That isn't a "mistake", it's a blatant intentional misrepresentation. That doesn't mean the approach is endorsed by the whole business, but I feel it is the business owner's responsibility to screen that type of behavior rigorously, and if he cannot do that, then I'm concerned at his business acumen.

Because of that, I personally wouldn't give a vendor of this nature another chance.

 

[mdx]

Hi Aljdewey

All retailers B&W or Internet, if they are honest will tell you that from time to time you will get a customer that just cannot be pleased, Some enjoy the “shopping experience” so much, they actually get upset when they find what they wanted. Others just don't understand the complexities of merchandising high quality diamonds.

The challenge is to treat each customer in a polite and efficient manner no matter what.

Let me give you a hypothetical situation:

The customer chooses a truckload of catalog numbers and requests Sarin details.
Salesman obliges.
Three weeks later the clients chooses a stone from the data supplied. Unfortunately the stone is sold and so is his second choice.

The client chooses another truckload from new stock, asks for Sarin data and three weeks later he is back and alas the same thing has happened.

This goes on for 3 months; the salesman then suggests to the client that perhaps he should be requesting details a bit closer to the time he wishes to purchase so as to prevent disappointments. The client in fact was always ready to purchase but not knowing how the industry works did not take into account that high quality goods do in fact sell quicker than Junk. The client takes offence and starts World War 4. Vendor Bashing begins.

On the positive side this thread has been has been extremely good for us.

We have used the comments and criticism to find tune parts of our customer relationships.

We have met some great USA vendors and interchanged thoughts and ideas through the private message system.

We have set up a number of new BtoB arrangements.

We have even picked up a few sales from “pricescope viewers” that visited our site to find out more about “ The Bad Guys”

Pricescope as a specialty consumer forum must rank as one of the worlds best.

Well, we are hooked on “Pricescope” so bash us if you want but we are here to stay

Kind Regards
Wayne
Melbourne Diamond Exchange Ltd.

 

[Rook]

So are you defending the practices of your employee and saying it was Morgan, the customer's fault?

 

[mdx]

Rook
Absolutely not , The example is purely hypothetical.

The salesman must always be held accountable for his actions.

The concept of “The customer is always right” must prevail.

Wayne

 

[Mara]

It's important for the big guys to remember that the consumer is embarking most likely on their first biggest purchase ever. Depending on what they are buying, this could be a year of savings, 2 years etc. Sure you have the consumers who can drop $10k/$20k/30k and not blink an eye...but if you are focusing on servicing a wide range of consumers, you will have to adjust your customer service levels accordingly in order to please most levels of consumers.

Morgan (and many others) are just being consumers, making sure they get the best stone for the best possible deal. It's up to the vendor they are working with to set the consumers mind at ease and build that level of trust. Otherwise the scenario that was laid out by MDX will most definitely occur if the consumer is not comfortable with the purchase. They may be ready to buy, but they may not be ready to buy from you if that comortability level has not been reached.

 

[mdx]

Mara

You make an excellent point and I agree it certainly is something that all vendors should take into account. Not all customers have then same situation

Wayne

 

[ROYCOHEN]

Richard,

I am not sure if it is possible to get a copy. Will find out from the WFDB and revert.

Advice to Morgan.
Sounds like you know what you are looking for.
Perhaps you should stipulate parameters to whoever you are dealing with and let them do the search for you and come back with stones that fit your Sarin requirements.

PS our offer stands

Regards

Roy Cohen

Diamond Certification Laboratory of Australia
+61 2 9261 2104
www.dcla.com.au

 

[aljdewey]

Hi, Wayne:

I agree that nearly every vendor has run into a few consumers who cannot be pleased.....and that often is a function of the consumer not educating himself enough prior to embarking on buying or not knowing what he wants. I do believe, however, that this represents a small fraction of consumers, and I believe it is a mistake to assume that most consumers are like this. Most consumers be pleased by readily providing the information they seek, and when a customer feels details are being withheld, that is a cause of concern.

My previous comments weren't specifically directed at MDX, they were generic comments in reply to Gary's statement "A mistake on the part of one employee doesn't make the whole business suspect."

I'm not bashing MDX, and I frankly don't think that anyone here is bashing MDX. Morgan, in fact, didn't bash MDX....he came here asking "is this normal, or should I be concerned?" That's what Pricescope is about....an unbiased forum where people get well-informed feedback about concerns or misgivings they may have in the diamond-buying process.

A note, though, on your hypothetical situation. If it is truly your experience that your ideal diamonds sell so fast, why don't you just give ALL the Sarin details on your website in the first place? I can't think of any reason to withhold crown/pavilion angles when you're listing all the other Sarin information on your website, and if you provided them a customer wouldn't have to bother you by asking for them. This would also speed up the decision-making process and help you avoid mistakenly assuming that someone is "not ready to buy". Perhaps that is something to consider.

"Ideal diamonds are sold within hours of being listed".....HERE's where I have a problem. That is just not true.....and anyone who spends any time on Pricescope knows better. I would take exception to this statement if it came from ANY vendor, not just from MDX.

On a personal note, the comments in your "hypothetical" scenario (especially "Customer takes offence and starts World War 4", and "Vendor bashing begins") make me feel as though Morgan's initial misgivings were well-founded. What I hear you saying is "the customer asked us for an unreasonable amount of documentation, he waited too long to make a decision, and then blames me for the outcome because he doesn't understand how this works." In my opinion, this attitude is not customer-centric.

As a consumer, I believe the burden in a sale is on both parties. I feel it is my responsibility as a customer to educate myself so that I can understand the information a vendor provides me, thereby not putting an undue strain on the vendor due to my ignorance. It is a vendor's responsibility to readily provide me with information I ask for, to do so willingly, and to be reasonably responsive.

 

[Rook]

aljdewey,

I can think of a reason for a store to not providing the sarin, they don't want the customer to be educated about the diamond. I am not suggesting that is this stores reason as I could never know their reason, but I have talked to many mall stores and certain chain store (some very prestigeous) that refuse to provide sarin information, or make it such a bother that you don't want to hassel with it.

That is fine. If a store does not want to provide that information they don't have to. But, the only customers they are going to attract will be the uneducated, not the well educated consumers found roaming Pricescope. There have been many stores I have asked for sarin information from and either been told they would not do that, or made up excuses why they could not. Even Tiffany's will not give you this info. If the customer does not like it, like I did not, then they simply need to shop else where. But I think a store like that will have difficulties with the educated consumers that browse Pricescope.

I have to disagree with your statement that the burden of the sale is on both parties. I think the burden is solely on the seller. If I want to be a complete moron or a very friendly customer, it should not change the way a store treats me. A store (any type not just diamonds) should treat all of its potential customers with the upmost respect, and if they want the customers business, they should appease even the trivia request of their customers.

Just my opinion.

 

[Toska]

Johan at icestore is the man!

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 11/17/2003 4:55:13 AM Toska wrote:

Most of the dealers from the pricescope forum such as Whiteflash etc. would not respond to my emails at all about their diamonds. I found the experience very dissapointing. ......

I honestly cannot recommend one vendor from the pricescope forum as 99% of them do not respond! Goodoldgold has not responded to about 6 emails. It is seriously beyond the joke!.........

For all of these overpriced vendors like Goodoldgold & the others who do not respond to my emails, you can stick it!

----------------

Toska, I find it quite ironic that you are castigating vendors for failing to reply to emails when you yourself don't reply to emails.

You sent me a PM asking for my help. I responded twice asking you for more info, etc.....you didn't reply to either. You *asked* for help, and then didn't bother to reply when I responded.

 

[Daniela]

I am going to stick my neck out on behalf of Pricescope vendors. We bought a diamond from GOG and picked it up on Saturday. It is a wonderful stone and a great value for money, of that I am certain. Furthermore, I have literally no less than 20 old emails from GOG sitting in my inbox in response to questions I had for them regarding their stock. I was a finicky and very nervous buyer, and they put my mind at ease every single time I had a concern. Not once did they fail to reply to my emails.

Furthermore, in my diamond shopping process I contacted DBOF, Whiteflash, and NiceIce. All of the aforementioned vendors were prompt, friendly, and informative when they replied to my questions. Their customer service was excellent.

Just wanted to share my experience.

 

[Toska]

----------------[/quote]

Toska, I find it quite ironic that you are castigating vendors for failing to reply to emails when you yourself don't reply to emails.

You sent me a PM asking for my help. I responded twice asking you for more info, etc.....you didn't reply to either. You *asked* for help, and then didn't bother to reply when I responded.

----------------[/quote]



aljdewey

I am sorry for not responding, the stone I asked you about was sold on me. So I thought it would be wasting your time to continue.
It was a bit rude of me to not reply to your email though. For vendors selling diamonds, it is unacceptable to not reply to emails.

 

[Toska]

---edited response---

 

[flyingharp]

----------------
On 11/18/2003 3:08:40 AM Toska wrote:

----------------

Thats great that goodoldgold looked after you. I find it strange how after countless emails, it has been over 2 months and not reply. I could understand if they could not reply to every email but they had ample oppurtunity. Those fools at goodoldgold cannot even answer a simple question like 'how much does it cost to post a diamond to Australia'

I guess they do not want international buyers and disregard their emails. That is the only logical explanation for their pathetic service

----------------

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I have to tell you that my experience with Good Old Gold has been completely the opposite. And the reason I chose to go with them was because that was the shared experiences of countless other folk before me.

I am based in the UK, wanting to export my diamond to Australia, and GoG have been nothing less than helpful in acceeding to my most complicated requests - including special paperwork for getting VAT exemption through the temporary importation process so that I pay GST in Oz instead of UK. And yes, I was given the cost to post to Oz (even though I was wanting to ship to UK!) Now, if that's not jumping through hoops...

Willfully neglecting and ignoring a potential customer is not something any vendor with any shred of business acumen would do.

Often when the reply doesn't come, one has to wonder if the message got through?

 

[Morgan]

Wow - this thread lives!

Roy, Im interested in your offer although its a little academic if we cant see the standards against it will be graded.

Gary - some would be a little surprised about this post ...

----------------
On 4/4/2003 5:08:05 PM Cut Nut wrote:


As I understand it Morgan is now dealing with fringe wholesalers who know didly squat about diamond cut quality.

I think Chris Lane might have something to say to you about this sort of criticism. In addition, in my view, this sort of comment is far from professional.

----------------
On 4/4/2003 5:08:05 PM Cut Nut wrote:


I offered him some advice politely about using the two labs (including Roy's) who are the only Sydneysiders with Sarin facilities.

This is a lie. I can clarify (at the risk of sparking further defamation from the aussie diamond fraternity) that the only facility I know of in sydney with a good rep is Bill Secos and Ive never heard the name for gary.

----------------
On 4/4/2003 5:08:05 PM Cut Nut wrote:


From my experiance less than 10% of diamonds imported into Aussie are within a bulls roar of well cut.

Id say it would be less than 1% with maybe one .1% representing honest value and none of the latter being sold by you.

----------------
Good luck Morgan, you'l ned it mate!----------------

Rubbish - All I needed were helpful and PROFESSIONAL people in the diamond trade - something that is embarrasingly lacking in aus but in abundance in NYC where I bought in august.

My NYC experience confirmed that the majority of the aussie market is a mix of
- 47th street professionalism and service and
- 8* prices.

In terms of B+M stores, the only decent diamonds are some of yours, aurias ideals and the designers like tiffany and co. What is appalling is that they are all similar prices and all 5-20% more expensive than tiffany 5th avenue.

Finally, I am not here often but cannot give a strong enough warning about the melbourne diamond exchange / icestore. DO NOT BUY FROM THEM. There are very good reasons for this that a little research will uncover. For anyone too lazy and SERIOUSLY considering a purchase from them PM me - I will check in every week or so and try to respond.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 11/18/2003 11:53:19 PM Morgan wrote:

----------------
On 4/4/2003 5:08:05 PM Cut Nut wrote:





I offered him some advice politely about using the two labs (including Roy's) who are the only Sydneysiders with Sarin facilities.

This is a lie. I can clarify (at the risk of sparking further defamation from the aussie diamond fraternity) that the only facility I know of in sydney with a good rep is Bill Secos and Ive never heard the name for gary. ----------------

Morgan.....in fairness, you should be more exacting about details before alleging that someone else is lying.

If you read carefully above, Garry said that the two labs he mentioned are the only ones with Sarin machines.......and your replying comment talks about which facility has a good reputation. They are not the same thing.

 

[luvmysparklies]

Toska,
I am sorry that you had that experience with Good Old Gold, but I have to strongly disagree that what they have to offer is a "rip-off."

On some stones, yes, Jonathan's prices are slightly higher, but they are still within a reasonable range. As much as I enjoyed my interactions with him I still compared prices prior to us having committed to buying my engagement ring/stone from GOG. I have experience with Whiteflash as well. I received excellent products at excellent prices from both organizations. Neither of these companies are in the business of ripping people off. If you are dissatisfied with the lack of communication (which you would have a right to be) that is one thing, but I have to disagree with your labeling their merchandise with a blanket description such as "rip off."
Well, take care.
Luvmysparklies

 

[Alex77]

Morgan,

I have read this entire thread with much interest as I was just recently given a very positive recommendation of the 'melbourne diamond exchange/icestore' by a friend of mine. To my frustration however, they have so far failed to respond to 2 of my emails and also 2 of my phone calls. Having just read all about your unfortunate saga I am now coming to the realisation that if I want to buy a diamond online I am going to have to get it from a US based online vendor.

I am new to this forum, but in the very short time I have been here I have gathered a wealth of information and found it to be extremely helpful. Some of the US online vendors that I have noticed on this site with good reputations are Niceice, WhiteFlash & Goodoldgold so hopefefully some or all of them can provide shipment to Australia. If anyone can recommend any other reputable online vendors I'd appreciate it also.

Thanks,

Ren

 

[mdx]

Hey Ren
Sorry to hear you where not contacted, when I get into the office to-morrow morning I will look into the matter. Things are rather hectic with Valentines Day but you should still get a reply within 12hrs. Did you use a correct e-mail address?
I will PM you my personal e-mail address to be sure.
Regards
Johan
Melbourne Diamond Exchange Ltd

 

[Alex77]

Johan,

Finally I get a response

, thanks. I actually made first contact with your company some time ago, probably would have been very early January. I contacted the Sydney office about a few diamonds and actually rang and left a message and a person named Stacy (?) was supposed to return my call. Anyway, I never heard back from anyone. My friend who recommended me to your company dealt very closely with Wayne in person and couldn't speak highly enough about you guys but when I told him that I hadn't got a reply he was quite shocked. Perhaps your Melbourne store is more reliable than your Sydney one????

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 2/12/2004 1:40:34 PM Ren wrote:





Some of the US online vendors that I have noticed on this site with good reputations are Niceice, WhiteFlash & Goodoldgold so hopefefully some or all of them can provide shipment to Australia. If anyone can recommend any other reputable online vendors I'd appreciate it also.
----------------

Ren, all of the above vendors you mentioned are fantastic, and any of them could help you with your purchase, I'm sure. All of them (to my knowledge) have done business international several times over and done so very smoothly.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 2/12/2004 2:28:36 PM mdx wrote:




Did you use a correct e-mail address?

----------------

What are the chances Ren has an incorrect email address *and* an incorrect phone number? He mentions he phoned without reply too.

 

[Drewjax]

Hi Morgan,

I too am a Sydneysider and am finding it very difficult to sort out the rubbish from the genuine dealers.

Can you provide any advice?

Cheers

Drew