Should I be concerned about icestore?

Morgan · Mar 25, 2003

After having been provided with sarin details by them for diamonds that werent to my liking I yesterday asked for crown and pavillion angles on 2 other diamonds from this online store in Australia.

Their responses pointed out that they have depth and table numbers on their site for me to look at but are resisting providing other details allegedly because they have taken it on themselves to assume I am not ready to purchase (incorrect as well as offensive).

I am not sure if they are giving me the usual used car salesman hard sell approach or if I should be concerned about the store.

They also dont generally use GIA or other recognised certs.

I am a solicitor so I would have done some company searches on the certs issue before buying but wonder if a refusal for sarin angles is a cause for concern about the dealer.

How many online diamonds/sarin details did you guys look at before buying?

Should I expect this sort of rudeness from time to time when looking to buy a $11000 AUD ideal stone online?

Mara · Mar 25, 2003

I would take your business elsewhere. There are other online co's that will ship to Australia....why bother with a co that is rude and will not submit to your request for more information? I think WhiteFlash or SuperbCert ships to AU...I am not sure about NiceIce, GOG, etc. I would check out some of the Pscope vendors and see who ships and will deal with you, then have them pull some stones.

Also Garry aka CutNut is in AU...and he sells stones. Plus he is a huge cut geek so you know his stones are top quality!

I would try to see if you can make contact with him to see what he offers, and/or if he has recommendations more local to you.

When spending a few grand or more on a purchase, it is not unbelievable to expect high end customer service! Good luck.

barry · Mar 25, 2003

Morgan;

Fully detailed MegaScope/Sarin data is readily available
from us as well as from a few other internet diamond vendors.
Even if you were purchasing a .20 ct diamond, you should
have access to a full slate of information.

Barry
www.superbcert.com

Morgan · Mar 25, 2003

Thanks for the advice Mara and Barry.

I had a process worked out where by I would get a diamond af a certain score on the HCA based on HCA and performance of diamonds I had seen with my own eyes.

Once I found one I would ask for a firescope image.

I get the feeling that they arent interested in making sure I get what I want and just want the sale.

In addition, their certificates are generally "DCLA" which I have never heard of in Australia.

Their site says "The DCLA is an independent grading laboratory, grading according to the International Diamond Council (IDC) rules."

Assuming it is independant, why would they use IDC rules when there are other much better recognised rules?

barry · Mar 25, 2003

What sort of answers did they give you?

Barry
www.superbcert.com

Morgan · Mar 25, 2003

I have not checked further on DCLA if thats what you mean.

The dealer for Ice Store or Ice Stones, Dimond exchange, responds to me initial request only yeilded this ..

"Pls note that the diamond grading characteristics contained in the sarin report, with the exception of the crown and pavilion angles are actually detailed on our website."

Which, of course, I already knew.

The rest of the email was sell including this...

"Suffice to say, you will certainly not see the inclusions in a VS2 and/or SI1 clarity diamond with the naked eye. We can assure you that you will not be disappointed in the grading characteristics of our diamonds, particularly if you decide to purchase an ideal cut diamond from our IceStore.com.au on-line inventory."

As mentioned in our previous email correspondence, our diamonds sell very fast and the diamonds you are interested in will not be available in a week or two. Ideal cut diamonds in particular are sold within hours of being listed."

I then sent another email asking for crown and pavillion angles and got this ...

"We appreciate what you are saying and certainly have no objections to emailing you the sarin report details - as we have done on a number of previous occasions, however we must stress that our diamonds sell very fast and the diamonds you have listed in your email have now been sold. Ideal cut diamonds in particular are sold within hours of being listed. Therefore, we would greatly appreciate if you would request the sarin reports when you are ready to buy, and we will then put the diamond on hold for you for 24 hours to ensure that the diamond you are interested in purchasing is actually available. "

I know they have a good helpful gemmologist there so its a pity to find this sort of attitude but its probably better to find out up front and not down the track when you want to return a H VS2 stone that ends up a GIA I SI1 with black inclusions.

Mara · Mar 25, 2003

"Ideal cut diamonds are sold within hours of being listed...."

HA HA---that would be nice! While I am sure they do sell some stones pretty quickly, I doubt that all of their 'ideal' stones are just snapped up within a few hours. NiceIce, GOG, WhiteFlash, SC, they all sell 'ideal' or 'super ideal' stones. I have seen stones posted on their sites for days...weeks....though I am sure some do sell quickly, most people do not just make a snap decision on an expensive stone, and certainly not within a few hours if they are trying to cover all the bases. Some people deliberate for days...weeks...we have seen it here on Pscope. Yes it has resulted in a loss of a stone or two, but in the end they all find something that is just as great if not better. They are just trying to get you to buy something out of panic that all the great stones will be gone.

"Therefore, we would greatly appreciate if you would request the sarin reports when you are ready to buy, and we will then put the diamond on hold for you for 24 hours to ensure that the diamond you are interested in purchasing is actually available. "

This is also laughable, as if you are smart (which you seem to be), you will request the Sarin report to see if you are ready to buy that stone and not the other way around. There is no way you can make an educated decision on a stone without that Sarin. If they are asking you to request the Sarin then plunk down the $$$, that's unreasonable too. I don't think its unheard of for a customer to ask for a few Sarins and THEN put a stone on hold when it's been determined you are seriously interested in that stone.

On an unrelated note, they do have alot of cool fancy colored stones....wow are they pricey!!!

Richard Sherwood · Mar 25, 2003

rbjd · Mar 25, 2003

I'd like to clarify which Ice Store we're talking about. The one that has prices here on Price Scope is in Beverly Hills and seems to be a pretty respectable place. Is this the place we're talking about or some other vendor?

Morgan · Mar 25, 2003

its actually the Melbourne Diamond Exchange at www.DiamondExchange.com.au.

Ive taken Mara's advice and am taking my business elsewhere and am amazed that all reputable dealers have sarin details PLUS firescope and or billiant scope etc etc right there on their site.

All the more puzzling that these guy get offended or put out when asked for sarin details they have opted not to list.

dbretton · Mar 25, 2003

Hello,

I read that you intend to use an HCA score as an evaluation criteria for culling out stones.
I would advise that you treat all stones with an HCA score below 2 to be equivalent.

My (albeit limited) experience is that the HCA is accurate to the nearest rounded down even number. Anything below a two should be treated as a "0".

Regards,
Dennis

Mara · Mar 25, 2003

This is their other url:
http://www.icestore.com.au/

They are connected/same co but it's a very shifty transition from one site to the next. Says their US store is the Melbourne Exchange? Odd.

Anyway--Morgan..I think you made the right decision. As you noted, there are many other highly reputed vendors who post that info up front for you and are usually thrilled to answer questions as it means you may be as interested in the details as they are.

Good luck!!

niceice · Mar 25, 2003

It is pretty safe to say that all of us (the on-line dealers here on PS) ship packages internationally all the time... The exceptions being those countries prohibited for diamond export by U.S. Customs and places like Indonesia where the cost of insuring the package seems to exceed the cost of the diamond... Seriously.

There is no reason to support or tolerate a vendor who is not willing to provide "basic information" when so many legitimate dealers make this information readily available... We're happy to hear that you've taken your business elsewhere, that is the only way such dealers will get the message...

mdx · Mar 25, 2003

Morgan

I have just seen this post and quiet frankly I am shocked.
It is late at night at the moment in Melbourne and I therefore cannot respond until I get to the office to-morrow morning.
I will investigate this matter I certainly will get back to you and this forum ASAP

Kind Regards
Wayne Solomon
Melbourne Diamond Exchange Ltd.

aljdewey · Mar 26, 2003

----------------
On 3/26/2003 12:10:29 AM niceice wrote:

We're happy to hear that you've taken your business elsewhere, that is the only way such dealers will get the message...
----------------

I wholeheartedly agree with R/T, and in fact, I'd take it a step further. I'd nicely convey to this vendor that the reason you aren't bringing your business there stems from their unwillingness to provide requested information and their incorrect assumption that you aren't ready to buy. Yes, they will get "a" message if you withhold your business, but not necessarily "the" message. They may assume that you didn't like the merchandise instead of realizing that you didn't care for the service/support.

I'm in sales, and I always find it helpful to know why someone chose not to buy from me. Sometimes it's that my product doesn't suit their wants/needs, sometimes it's because they had a poor experience with a predecessor at my company, etc. Knowing why one doesn't make a sale is how vendors can improve their service.

dimonbob · Mar 26, 2003

Hello Morgan,

I think you woke up the boys in Melbourne. They just figured out that you can shop the world for your diamond.
Let us know how far this guy bends over backwards to get your business.

mdx · Mar 26, 2003

size=2">Response from Melbourne Diamond Exchange Ltd:

Here we are to face the music.

We have been in touch with Morgan and now we will do our best to answer every issue raised in this thread.

From now on each of our posts will address a particular topic from this thread. We look forward to interacting with you all.

Wayne

mdx · Mar 27, 2003

Morgan Wrote

----------------------------------

They also dont generally use GIA or other recognised certs/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

In addition, their certificates are generally "DCLA" which I have never heard of in Australia.

Their site says "The DCLA is an independent grading laboratory, grading according to the International Diamond Council (IDC) rules."

Assuming it is independant, why would they use IDC rules when there are other much better recognised rules?/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

Morgan,/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

We carry stones certified by many agencies. The proportions this week are:/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

GIA 68%/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

DCLA 10%/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

EGL 9%/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

HRD 7%/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

AGS 0.03%/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

IGI 0.03%/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

We support DCLA because they are the only accredited laboratory endorsed by the Jewellers Association of Australia (a member of CIBJO). DCLA grade to exceptionally high standards - as you would expect of any body that lays claim to international reputation. We often have GIA certified stoned verified by DCLA. /www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

We believe DCLA will respond in this forum about the matter of IDC rules. DCLA certificates show all the relevant data to analyse cut proportion - I'm sure they will send you a sample if you ask./www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

Regards
Wayne
Melbourne Diamond Exchange Ltd /www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

Iceman · Mar 27, 2003

I still like the people in Australia even if they are not happy with the Americans at this point.

mdx · Mar 27, 2003

Thanks Iceman

We are actually pretty good guys, Maybe just a little misunderstood

Regards
Wayne

niceice · Mar 27, 2003

Hey MDX, it's good to see you here on the boards even if the room is a bit smoky from the smoldering embers at the moment... We don't know why we didn't make the MDX connection to IceStore earlier but now that we have we'd like to say that we've never heard anything negative about your company before and our e-paths have crossed several times via clients who have bounced back and forth between our sites. We don't know the intricate details of this particular transaction, but it sounds as if something unusual has occurred... MDX is certainly capable of providing Sarin / OGI details on the diamonds they have listed for sale, perhaps a wire or two got crossed between you and your client? These things happen and more often than not good things stem from the experience if the parties involved take a moment to pay attention to what happened so that it doesn't occur in the future... We have an excellent reputation for bending over backwards for our clients and trying to respond quickly to inquiries and specific requests, but awhile back our email stopped flowing and clients were expressing displeasure at the fact that we weren't responding to their requests... The fact is that we were not receiving our email and didn't know it... We thought the market had just slowed down in response to the stock market or something... As it turns out we had set our server to delete anything with the word "email" in it while setting up a spam filter... You can imagine the clean up that took and the many little fires that we had to put out for failing to respond to client inquiries in a timely manner. While threads of disatisfaction and frustration may target our individual companies from time to time, we think that positive things result from the events more often than not by providing the public with a place to get answers to their diamond buying questions, share their diamond buying experiences, air their frustrations, and give us (the dealers) feedback that we might not otherwise receive and that feedback can be invaluable in growing our companies... How else can we know what the public expects of us in a market that is constantly mutating to fulfill the needs of a clientele which is demanding more and more information? The fact that you have stepped into the flames of a thread such as this is evidence of your desire to serve the needs of your clients, we have no doubt that this issue is going to be addressed in depth at your next staff meeting

Richard Sherwood · Mar 28, 2003

I find that relationships (and companies) which address a problem and then solve that problem subsequently have a better relationship (or company) than before the problem existed.

Situations like this are learning opportunities in which we can learn to "tweak" our customer relations policies in order to maximize customer satisfaction and perception.

In the internet world in particular, customer perception often turns around a single point which we don't even realize is portrayed negatively. The internet customer is a new breed of consumer who is easily able to check out the positions of companies to see if they are in line with the norm, or even the "cream" of the crop.

With such wide access to information, and instant availability of products and services available to them, the internet consumer tends to be a very picky customer. I don't mean that in a negative way, as I am a picky customer myself, as are most people who make their living dealing with micro-details.

My advice to you, MDX, would be to train your staff to eliminate anything and everything in their dealings with the public that puts across a "nonsense" sort of image. Even if it is unfounded, if it's perceived as such it's going to be a stumbling block in the pursuit of excellence you're obviously striving for.

My advice to you, Morgan, would be to give IceStore a second chance. Now that they have a heightened awareness of the situation, my guess is that they'll bend over backwards to make you happy. You can't lose by trying.

Garry H (Cut Nut) · Mar 29, 2003

Just caught up with this thread, and while I never read it all, one of Morgans question's remains unanswered.

Buy it now or it will be sold!
Wayne the scary thing about the Internet diamond business is that you really must provide full transperancy.

It is common in America for etailers to list diamonds from Rapnet or Polygon, and everyone has access to those same diamonds. Most e-tailers let the client (sort of) know that they do not ownthe diamond - it is lsited by a 4th party and owned by a third, so lots of people are trying to sell it. Usually the diamond is somewhere in USA.

In the IceStore case the diamond is in another continent and they are all supplied by one cutter. I think by Attempting to make it look like you are actually a very big company listing 13,000 diamonds that you actually own you are lining up for many falls.

I think you should aim for transperancy.
In the long run there is nowhere to hide when you are dealing with the Internet.

Morgan · Mar 30, 2003

Thanks for all the advice and information - Ive been off line and just read the most recent points.

There was no misunderstanding involved, just 2 refusals to provide crown and pavilion angles.

I have received an email expressing "regret" about losing my business but no apology or sarin angles.

Re the certificates - their "ideal" and "excellent" cuts (no description of that grading is provided) are all "DCLA" certificates. http://www.diamondexchange.com.au/ideal-cuts.htm

I would never consider giving this dealer a second chance and clearly wouldnt recommend them to my friends and colleagues.

I have also been put in touch with Chris Lane and others in sydney who sell GIA and HRD stones in Sydney from city offices (not stores).

I have been offered a 1.07ct F, vs1 HRD very good cut (HCA 1.9) for $11,500 and a GIA 1.06 G vs2 for $10,500.

I also get to look at these stones, compare them to others, and get an independant appraisal BEFORE I buy so its clear that I needed to do more homework before I bought.

But on a comparison of service and online information AUS vs US internet stores Id say our stores have some work to do on presentation of stones, price and good business practice.

Garry H (Cut Nut) · Mar 30, 2003

Morgan FYI HRD usually list depth % and this info will get you into trouble with HCA. It is likely the stone will leak - have you looked with an ideal-scope?

If you want it run on a Sarin then there are 2 in Sydney, 1 at DCLA and the other at Gem studies Lab, both might give you an independant appraisal service.

Do not throw the baby out with the bath water because one internet person thought you were a tire kicker.

Morgan · Mar 30, 2003

I plan to get the sarin numbers - the appraiser I intend to use is George ... Something? (cant remember his last name but I understand he is very well regarded).

I think the "tyre kicker" analogy explains the condescending responses I got well.

The irony is that "tyre kickers" in the diamond market would be so few as to be immaterial and I would argue that there are none in the internet diamond market.

I mean its not always as unpleasant as dealing with used car dealers but I doubt people find fun in trawling through numbers and diagrams on the net in they same way as they would test driving a potential new BMW M3.

I make no apologies for being rigorous.

Indeed, what Diamond Exchange would consider a tyre kicker I would call an astute buyer doing his homework.

Ultimately, I doubt operations like this will find enough easy sells for their stones (big ticket items in anyones language) cause the internet market I know is for the most part rigourous and well informed.

Garry H (Cut Nut) · Mar 30, 2003

Make sure George gets to use a Sarin from one of those I mentioned and does not try to do visual proportion estimation if you wish to use HCA.
There are only 2 proportion scanners in Sydney.

Mara · Mar 30, 2003

Hi Morgan--Good luck, let us know what you find and decide! Also I wanted to note that the two stones you are considering seem priced a little high? I am not sure if those prices are US or AUS. But if they are US, compare some similar stones on Pscope for some $$$ comparisons. I would estimate around a 1c F VS1 excellent cut would go on Pscope for around $8000 or so. That's a savings of $3k over your $11k. Just wanted to note that for your pricing discussion with the vendor...if you find a great stone, be sure you get a good price as well!

ROYCOHEN · Apr 3, 2003

Hi all,

My name is Roy Cohen from the Diamond Certification Laboratory of Australia (DCLA)
Some of you know us but most probably don't as we are relatively new to the Australian Diamond Industry. The laboratory was set up a year ago. We are a fully independent grading laboratory working to the International Diamond Council (IDC) rules as unanimously approved by the World Federation of Diamond Bourses and the International Diamond Manufacturers Association. We are internationally affiliated and the only laboratory endorsed by the Jewellery Association of Australia.

Morgan, when you have purchased your diamond we would like to invite you to come and visit us at the lab, we will be happy to grade your diamond and provide you with the certificate at no cost.

Sincerely,

Roy Cohen
National 1 300 66 3252
Office + 61 2 9261 2104
www.dcla.com.au

Richard Sherwood · Apr 3, 2003

Hi Roy. Nice to hear from you. Stick around, you might have some fun on here.

Can you tell me where I'd find a copy of the International Diamond Council (IDC) rules?

Thanks,

Should I be concerned about icestore?

Rough_Rock

Sponsored By:

Related topics:

Super_Ideal_Rock

Shiny_Rock

Rough_Rock

Shiny_Rock

Rough_Rock

Super_Ideal_Rock

Ideal_Rock

Shiny_Rock

Rough_Rock

Rough_Rock

Super_Ideal_Rock

Brilliant_Rock

Brilliant_Rock

Ideal_Rock

Brilliant_Rock

Brilliant_Rock

Brilliant_Rock

Brilliant_Rock

Brilliant_Rock

Brilliant_Rock

Ideal_Rock

Super_Ideal_Rock

Rough_Rock

Super_Ideal_Rock

Rough_Rock

Super_Ideal_Rock

Super_Ideal_Rock

Rough_Rock

Ideal_Rock