Setting Questions-Rejected by Steven Kirsch-???-Help!

[Gypsy]

For great quality for that setting your pricing expectations are unreasonable. I look at it and think: 3000-4000. Call BGD and ERD. They will give you quotes. Also contact Singlestone and Wink Jones.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Did you look at these yet? Because they obviously have access to nice rubies of the same style as in your example setting. I think it is very important to use someone who you can see has done similar work.

http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/royal-t-collection-pcid-44.html

 

[slg47]

If cast/cad is good for this type of ring, I'm fine with it.
The only reason I was looking at hand forged is because I read some horror stories online that cast platinum is often a cover up job & cracks & gets covered up due to air bubbles.

cast platinum when done /well/ is fine. there should be no problems. many designers and companies use this method for making rings and the rings are structurally sound.

 

[CharmyPoo]

I don't think SK rejected you because it wasn't his style. I don't think the side stones are easily accesssible to me. His skill should have no problem making the actual ring. Also, Leon and SK's pricing is almost identical. You should go to Leon for a quote.

 

[Dreamer_D]

The ring will be pricey in part because the side rubies would need to be custom cut. This is what Mark at ERD told me about some of their lovely ruby halos; they are really pricey compared to all diamond mounts because the stones are cut just for your ring.

 

[catia]

Gypsy, I did not post my price range--just showed what 2 others quoted me, so I don't think I am being unreasonable about price-??? I just was shocked at the differences in price though.

And as for the original at WBAW-which I viewed in person on 2 different days-to be honest--well, hands down, the rings at Sun Jewelry WERE MUCH BETTER quality, I viewed several finished and I even viewed ones that were not finished. Even the unfinished looked more sound--none of the baskets looked wonky. I was also at Sun on 2 different occaisions.

Has anyone here ever been to Sun Jewelry or done business with them before knocking them?

They also have a shop here in PA--Hershey PA., so 2 seperate B&M locations. They are well respected in Hershey PA.
So far I have only read 1 negative experience about them, & that was on PS (the crooked mounted diamond).
Apparently they supply settings to many different jewelry stores throughout the country, which is why they have the equipmnent that they do & can offer lower prices.

I'm not saying ALL rings at WBAW are poor quaility, but I AM saying this one was. She also told me she has her ruby work done in thailand because it's not worth it for her to have it done in the states. So maybe she has that ring made there as well. I know she told me it would take a couple of months to get the platnum setting made (the one I was told was in stock & I went to see).
When I wanted stacking 1/2 ruby bands & was asking questions about wanting 1/2 bands, she did tell me she could have some small ruby eternity bands cut in half to make 2 half bands, just a matter of making the bottom part. I thought that would affect the channel set...All I have is the experience of going there, can't make this stuff up.

To be fair, i think WBAW is technically a seperate entity, & the woman with the rings is in the same store, other side & I think they share space, & website, but I got the feeling when I was there that they aren't the same business.

I'm set on this setting. yes I have viewed every Bev K--almost got one but it did not look good on my hand.
*************************This is the one I want. ****************
I've had my mind made up for about 2 years about it, & had to start looking at having it made on Oct/Nov 2011 after viewing it in person.

So if cad & cast or cast & cad is OK for this type of setting--no need for hand forged quotes.

I think I will just get my diamond mounted in a cheap 14k WG ebay setting until I figure out who to go to!

 

[decodelighted]

Controversial ... but .... don't reproduce that setting. You're not going to be happy no matter how much you pay. Just keep looking until you find something you love as much or more. A finished setting that will either resized or recrafted exactly. People are just simply NEVER happy when they get antiques copied -- especially not ones like yours. There are just too many things you could end up unhappy with ... and did ya ever think WHY that ring is so sloppy & yuck ... maybe they couldn't do it better. I just don't think anything could meet the imaginary expectations in your head of what you WANT that ring to be.

There are very, very few artisans who can REFINE an antique piece like that and make it even more refined and beautiful than a sloppy original as viewed only by pictures. And they are expensive.


ETA: This isn't a problem of want. It's a problem of math. NO MATTER WHAT YOUR HEART & MIND SAY -- the odds of you getting the ring you want are infintesimal. Everything is based on hope and trust in others. Time and time again we've seen custom reproductions like that go horribly wrong. And even when they go "better" -- the end results NEVER NEVER NEVER match the expectations of the buyer/dreamer. So the vendor gets screwed! And badmouthed etc for not reading the customer's mind correctly enough.


PEOPLE OF PRICESCOPE -- can ANYONE post a happy story of someone reproducing a ring of this kind??? ANY EXAMPLE???? In the last 10 years????

 

[Circe]

You may want to consider that the ring you have posted may not actually be doable as a hand forge job. It's all the rage right now to have something said to be handforged but IMO that ring doesn't look like something that could be made strictly from sheet metal and wire.

Handforging basically entails what can be done with sheet metal and wire (example baskets and pave work). IMO, a downside would be numberous solder jobs to hold all the various bits and pieces together with the upside being the usually mentioned density of the metal.

Then, there's casting, which of course uses a mold or wax model which is then cast, which certainly gives you great control over intricate work that can't be done with wire and solder, or an easy way to do multiples of a hand fabricated model. Upside to me here is the more of if cast in one piece, the less soldering joints you have. Downside is the usually mentioned porosity of the metal.

A lot of the old rings you see I would guess were die-struck, then hand finished (based on my understanding of places like VanCraeynest that still use die striking and hand chasing/carving techniques for their jewelry). These repros may be cast or just a bad die strike job, who knows...or maybe something in between with some cast pieces soldered in so maybe they are a bit of a mongrel of all the methods.

Since you mentioned something about solder joints on the casting, I thought I ought to say that there's usually a lot less soldering involved with a cast piece. I'm actually quite partial to casting, having taken lost wax casting classes some years ago, and find it quite fun. I also thoroughly enjoyed the hand fab (forged) classes I took as well, but I can't help but notice that people automatically think of casting as low quality, and hand forge as automatically good whereas I feel like each method is equally good depending on what you are trying to go for and not everything that can be done in one can be done in the other, as far as I know.

This. A good and succinct summation.

 

[Amys Bling]

there is nothing wrong with cast settings. this method is in fact superior for making certain designs. your ring doesn't look like most of the rings that steven kirsch makes. in general it's good to go with someone who makes rings in asimilar style to the one that you want.

agreed. I think Steven meant its really not the style he makes...

 

[Laila619]

Controversial ... but .... don't reproduce that setting. You're not going to be happy no matter how much you pay. Just keep looking until you find something you love as much or more. A finished setting that will either resized or recrafted exactly. People are just simply NEVER happy when they get antiques copied -- especially not ones like yours. There are just too many things you could end up unhappy with ... and did ya ever think WHY that ring is so sloppy & yuck ... maybe they couldn't do it better. I just don't think anything could meet the imaginary expectations in your head of what you WANT that ring to be.

There are very, very few artisans who can REFINE an antique piece like that and make it even more refined and beautiful than a sloppy original as viewed only by pictures. And they are expensive.


ETA: This isn't a problem of want. It's a problem of math. NO MATTER WHAT YOUR HEART & MIND SAY -- the odds of you getting the ring you want are infintesimal. Everything is based on hope and trust in others. Time and time again we've seen custom reproductions like that go horribly wrong. And even when they go "better" -- the end results NEVER NEVER NEVER match the expectations of the buyer/dreamer. So the vendor gets screwed! And badmouthed etc for not reading the customer's mind correctly enough.

I have to second this post. There are so many ways that ring could go wrong. Plus, like Deco says, it rarely ever comes out the way you wanted and pictured it.

 

[Mike R]

You may want to consider that the ring you have posted may not actually be doable as a hand forge job. It's all the rage right now to have something said to be handforged but IMO that ring doesn't look like something that could be made strictly from sheet metal and wire.

Handforging basically entails what can be done with sheet metal and wire (example baskets and pave work). IMO, a downside would be numberous solder jobs to hold all the various bits and pieces together with the upside being the usually mentioned density of the metal.

Then, there's casting, which of course uses a mold or wax model which is then cast, which certainly gives you great control over intricate work that can't be done with wire and solder, or an easy way to do multiples of a hand fabricated model. Upside to me here is the more of if cast in one piece, the less soldering joints you have. Downside is the usually mentioned porosity of the metal.

A lot of the old rings you see I would guess were die-struck, then hand finished (based on my understanding of places like VanCraeynest that still use die striking and hand chasing/carving techniques for their jewelry). These repros may be cast or just a bad die strike job, who knows...or maybe something in between with some cast pieces soldered in so maybe they are a bit of a mongrel of all the methods.

Since you mentioned something about solder joints on the casting, I thought I ought to say that there's usually a lot less soldering involved with a cast piece. I'm actually quite partial to casting, having taken lost wax casting classes some years ago, and find it quite fun. I also thoroughly enjoyed the hand fab (forged) classes I took as well, but I can't help but notice that people automatically think of casting as low quality, and hand forge as automatically good whereas I feel like each method is equally good depending on what you are trying to go for and not everything that can be done in one can be done in the other, as far as I know.

Hi Bastetcat, for educational reasons I just wanted to let you and others reading this know that a design like this is completely doable using hand forged methods.

A skilled jeweler can do many amazing things with sheet stock and wire and that having numerous solder joins is really not a downside, if done well a solder join is just as durable as the rest of the hand forged piece and will be invisable.

 

[catia]

Circe & Bastet--
I'm thinking yes to the cad/cast--there is not so much intricate detail for the ring itself-aside from the 2 semi-odd cut rubies, there's not much that's complicated about this ring.
The details that I want for it to look proper to me have to do with engraving & milgrain.

Back when I was at Sun Jewelers, I was told by Abit that engraving & milgrain(sp?) should only be done after the ring is made & never cast into it. He told me if those details are cast into the ring it isn't proper & they won't look good-they wont be crisp.
He showed me examples of rings that had been partially finished without the milgrain & engraving--1 side had it-1 side did not--so that I could see the difference in crispness-he said those things must be done by hand--he had hundreds of rings there in the showcase, and had the partially finished ones just for examples.

I personally have seen, in person, MANY MANY antique reproduction rings that were just beautiful, ones I'd have no issues wearing, at multiple jewelers, including Sun Jewelers. So that's not the issue.

I'm not looking for a VanCraeynest type of finish, LOL, though I'd LOVE to have one, and if I had that type of $$, I'd go there!!!!Something like one of their rings surely could never be reproduced using cad/cast no matter what--it'd just never have the same "feel" & aesthetic. That's not the effect of this style of ring, so I personally feel it's not an issue for me.

I like antique style, but I'm not a jewerly connisseur(sp) & not gonna be hanging out at Christie's with my ring trying to pass it off as something they're auctioning off. I don't attend expensive dinner parties where people discuss the coach bags & jimmy choo boots.

Heck-not a person I know in real life--outside of this site has even heard of VanCraeynest, or Leon Mege--they have heard of Beverly K...Only 1 person I know even knows what an OEC diamond is!!!! So when I am frolicking through the dog park in my ripped Levi's & sweatshirt, or getting out of my 13 year old honda civic (with 158,000 miles), no one is gonna say "ooh look at that horrible reproduction ring" LOL.
Better yet, when I am searching through a yardsale or the thrift store, if someone would ask about my ring, I'm more likely to tell them it's "diamonique" or from Avon LOL!!! I'm just not that willing to lose my finger LOL!

 

[webdiva]

While I'm worried that the ring you posted is so blobby that it's hard to tell exactly what they were TRYING to accomplish, I'm sure that will get worked out in the CAD process. Expect to put down between $200-400 to get the cad process going, which is usually non-refundable. While I personally would wait to get a more reputable custom jeweler to work on it, it seems that you have made up your mind about Sun and I can be respectful of that.

Best of luck and here is a great thread outlining the CAD process, which will help you through the process. Definitely post the ring when you're done - we'd love to see it! [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/custom-jewelry-design-process-with-cad-by-wink-jones.173306/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/custom-jewelry-design-process-with-cad-by-wink-jones.173306/[/URL]

 

[Circe]

Heheheh - hey, all of that makes sense to me! And I have seen some really nice reproduction pieces recently, so it only stands to reason that jewelers we don't know are producing them, since, sadly, we almost never see them on the boards. A lot of Melony Pino's pieces, for example, are described as "antique style," which certainly implies that the art hasn't been lost! Abit described the process very well, IMO: I will look forward to seeing your ring once it is made! It would make me very happy to have a source for this sort of thing ....

 

[mrssalvo]

Controversial ... but .... don't reproduce that setting. You're not going to be happy no matter how much you pay. Just keep looking until you find something you love as much or more. A finished setting that will either resized or recrafted exactly. People are just simply NEVER happy when they get antiques copied -- especially not ones like yours. There are just too many things you could end up unhappy with ... and did ya ever think WHY that ring is so sloppy & yuck ... maybe they couldn't do it better. I just don't think anything could meet the imaginary expectations in your head of what you WANT that ring to be.

There are very, very few artisans who can REFINE an antique piece like that and make it even more refined and beautiful than a sloppy original as viewed only by pictures. And they are expensive.


ETA: This isn't a problem of want. It's a problem of math. NO MATTER WHAT YOUR HEART & MIND SAY -- the odds of you getting the ring you want are infintesimal. Everything is based on hope and trust in others. Time and time again we've seen custom reproductions like that go horribly wrong. And even when they go "better" -- the end results NEVER NEVER NEVER match the expectations of the buyer/dreamer. So the vendor gets screwed! And badmouthed etc for not reading the customer's mind correctly enough.


PEOPLE OF PRICESCOPE -- can ANYONE post a happy story of someone reproducing a ring of this kind??? ANY EXAMPLE???? In the last 10 years????

super huge ditto to all of this!

 

[decodelighted]

Catia ... do you like pink? http://www.rubylane.com/item/307969-R2998/Gorgeous-Diamond-Pink-Sapphire-Engagement

 

[catia]

Decodedlight--that is a beautiful ring--Even though I'm not a fan of pink sapphires though, it sure is pretty

I have an old spinel ring of almost the same shade (gorgeous ring I got for valentines day)as those sapphires--I'm a ruby girl at heart, & only like pink if it is barely there. I do not wear the ring & want the stones changed to a different color spinel...someday.

I haven't made up my mind yet about Sun. Just posting what I've been told/shown/experienced.

I *DO* really want to give them a chance though--just not sure if I should do it with my E-ring & band as a 1st shot. If it were just a regular ring, something to try 1st, I'd have a test run, but i can't afford that right now.

Honestly, in person, as far as jewelry stores go, *in person* these were the nicest, non-pressuring, informative people--they didn't mince words about opinions on styles or details--I was there to see a specific ring--one of their rings-& it just didn't look right on my hand-& they even said so, and asked what other styles I was interestd in--that's how it all got started--I Abit about the wonky setting & he asked if I had any pics--& it went from there. He started explaining what they could do, & gave BF & I a lot of info--told me to take my time & choose a diamond 1st & they'd be right there if I wanted it made. He had a good ear & a good eye & when I was trying to explain something I did not know the term for, he'd pull out a piece of jewelry and say "do you mean like this?", & he was always spot on & had good suggestions for thinking about things like comfort, maintenance, ease of cleaning.
He had no problem giving me a quote on the spot & said he'd have no problem sourcing the rubies & that I need to chose which color ruby I want. I asked about the odd shape of the ruby & he said they could get it cut if they couldn't find one, but that it wasn't something that would take an extensive amount of time.
Also--he did mention making the ring part from platinum wire & the rest of the ring cast--this confused me, because I had no idea rings were made from platinum wire, no clue about the process, but he said it's probably better that way. At that time--to me--a ring made from wire sounded odd & not too pretty--
So you see, I don't understand all of the different processes-some people mix processes-there's a LOT to know, and for a person who is just gonna do this once for a ring, it's quite overwhelming. No one wishes more than me that I could just find an already made ring that "speaks" to me--well, I guess I did, but even to my seriously untrained eyes, it wasn't a good deal...so here I am trying to figure out how to get this ring made.

 

[vintagelover229]

I would shoot Ari an email and give him a call. Off the top of my head he is the ONLY one I can say 100% that you will be 100% happy with his work and this is his area. He recreates and refurbishes antique rings ALL the time. He's made probably my favorite ring of all time on PS (and that's saying something-I have 2 styles that are tied-both bezel set and both antique rings). I believe Victor made LGK bezel OEC with french cut side stones (so you can try him as well) and Ari was the other one-he made it's Yennyfire's antique oval ring be still my heart every time I look at it.

I have met with Ari (who knew I wasn't buying anything but still let me try on whatever I wanted in the store) and he is amazing as well as the rest of his staff. To play in the store was a dream come true. I will tell you though you're quote WILL be at least 2500.00-and that is on the LOW side. I'm guessing probably closer to 3500.00 to make that setting-rubies aren't cheap. ALTHOUGH many vintage pieces actually had man made rubies in them (since they were new and so they used them) which could help save on the cost if you'd consider doing that.

The ring you posted is beautiful. If that's what you want-then get it. But wait until you can get it on your own. I would also consider getting an actual OEC to help save on cost (not that AVR aren't AWESOME cuz they are). Check out www.jewelsbyericagrace.com and see what they can find for you with the faceting pattern you are looking for. Then ship it off to Ari and have your dream setting made. Or have Ari source you an OEC-you might get a better deal as a whole package.

The single stone ring (custom piece)
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/antique-oval-and-singlestone-setting-perfection.166449/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/antique-oval-and-singlestone-setting-perfection.166449/[/URL]

LGK OEC with french cuts by Victor
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/victor-canera-reset-my-3-39-ct-oec-tapered-french-cuts.158320/page-3']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/victor-canera-reset-my-3-39-ct-oec-tapered-french-cuts.158320/page-3[/URL]


Good luck!

 

[Hospatogi]

I would suggest getting a quote from Victor Canera for this. Hope you can find someone to make this design for you as it is a very pretty setting

 

[yssie]

Single stone, no question. I wouldn't recommend any other vendor for a project like this, where A) you know you want an antique look, B) you want a bench that is familiar w/ repos, and C) you do not want the designer to make executive decisions on your behalf.

Don't feel bad about SK rejecting the job - he may have felt that the project wasn't a good fit, or that you as a customer weren't a good fit, but whatever the case it's not an indictment of your wants, and far better to know now than later. I've been rejected too - several of us have - and we've still managed to find vendors to make us some spectacular pieces

 

[aviastar]

I know you haven't posted a budget, so don't know if the gold vs. platinum savings is an issue- but you did mention not wanting to replate the white gold. Have you considered getting unplated white gold to begin with? There are a few PS vendors who do this, right? I think I am remembering Victor Canera, Whiteflash, Hunt Country....

Personally, I prefer the unplated look and color and there have been some beautiful examples of unplated white gold on these boards- Yssie's rings come to mind, in particular. Not tying to throw anything else in to confuse the issue, but if replating is your biggest concern with white gold you can go without it.

Good luck and congratualtions!

 

[catia]

Yssie,
I guess I'm over the rejection part, I do feel better knowing i'm not the only one this has happened to.
It would have helped if there was an explaination or a referral to someone who might do this type of work.

I'm pretty naive I guess. After my visit to Sun & learning that people will make custom rings--It was all just so layed back & easy going.
Beavsue of that, I asumed all ring makers were like that--
I just thought you showed them a pic, they gave you a quote & you placed your order, and that no one tries to put their own style on your ring cuz you wanted what you asked for--LOL--naive may be an understatement after reading some stories on PS...

 

[distracts]

I'm pretty naive I guess. After my visit to Sun & learning that people will make custom rings--It was all just so layed back & easy going.
Beavsue of that, I asumed all ring makers were like that--
I just thought you showed them a pic, they gave you a quote & you placed your order, and that no one tries to put their own style on your ring cuz you wanted what you asked for--LOL--naive may be an understatement after reading some stories on PS...

It's not that they are trying to "put their own style on your ring," it's that different styles require different skills, techniques, and materials. If a vendor primarily does one style of thing, or similarly related styles, they will naturally get much better at those while not getting very much better at the styles they don't make. Vendors who do not feel like they are completely competent at the style you want should turn it down, but this doesn't always happen (experienced by me personally with some botched repair jobs). Even if they CAN make a style competently, maybe they don't like working in that particular style and only accept jobs in the styles they like working in. Maybe they are trying to create a brand image, like Singlestone does antique styles, and so on. There could be any number of reasons why a jeweler chooses to stick to a specific style in his work. You should always ask to see examples or a portfolio of custom work before you hire someone for it, to ensure that they can do what you want. Steven Kirsch's website doesn't show any examples of rings that look similar to yours, but the ERD and Singlestone sites do, which is why they are being recommended.

Or here's an analogy to make it clear - asking a jeweler to make a ring without any regard to their style is like going into a Mexican restaurant and ordering lasagna. They're going to tell you no. Lasagna is great, and their chefs can probably make it, but if you want lasagna you should go to an Italian restaurant, because it's on the menu and is probably better there anyway.

 

[catia]

Ok, I 'get it'
--like taking in a honda for a tune up with a chevy guy...

I just thought if you can make 1 type, you can make another. I did understand getting quality pave work done--you really need reference from others, but since I wasn't going that route, & my choice wasn't a really detailed piece, that it was simple.

I don't really know the differences between types, I just know what I like style wise.

Anyway, I think I am just going to put my stone in a cheapie stock setting & save up for the setting I want--which ***IS*** the one I have shown here.
I should get more estimates, & from some of the places listed here that do this *type* of ring.

I would call this *type* a simple art-deco setting, with ruby side stones & not a lot of melee.
When describing this setting--is that accurate?

If not--what on earth is it called???

Help me know the language!!!

Is there a name for the type of basket thing it has? And what about the prongs?