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Setting Questions-Rejected by Steven Kirsch-???-Help!

catia

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
91
I fell in love with a setting I found online. I was told it was platinum, & given a price. I was able to view this in person & the setting was poorly made white gold & wonky & basket was a mess--you could see solder & cracks had been plated over in WG, so I passed on it, because I did not trust the integrity of the ring itself.

I decided I still want that setting, with some *very minor* modifications, & set out to find someone who would make the setting.

So after much reading here, I decided to contact steven kirsch about having my setting made. I felt pretty comfortable after seeing pics of his work & reading here. I told him I had found out about his work from PS.

I got a reply from Steven Kirsch he doesn't work with *your kind of setting*--So I was flat rejected by him to make my ring!

I have NO IDEA what *your kind of setting* means really--that was the only explanation I received.

To be honest, I feel quite rejected--no real explanation was given except "we don't work with your kind of setting"

I sent pics, explained what I want modified from the pics (just want platinum not WG, & some milgraining & the ring to be symmetrical & prongs more like his)--It does not look like a complicated ring, not pave.

I had previously been to Sun Jewelry, months ago, in person in Los Angeles, & they quoted me a price for cast & cad, but after reading here I was worried about the quality of cast & cad since I want platinum--& decided to contact someone who has good reference from PS.

What's up with the people who make settings? I need suggestions for who will make a quality ring.


I doubt seriously that I can afford Leon Mege, so did not even send a request. And if Steven Kirsch doesn't want to make it, I doubt Leon would.

Abit at Sun Jewelry said my ring is not complicated at all & I even met his cad guy. His prices are great, but I'm worried about a cast & cad platimun ring.

I was wanting info on having it handmade not cast & cad, because I want a quaility ring. I would be OK with cast & cad if I can find someone who is known to be good with cast & cad specifically in platinum--if that's the only way I can go.

I am totally out of my element & need help & suggestions.

I feel quite heart broken & insulted, like there is something wrong with my choice of setting, so much so that a known jewelry maker won't even make it, so fear I'm gonna get rejected by others now too.

I've purchased the stone through GOG, will get it this week.

I did inquire with GOG about having the setting made & they are supposed to get back to me with an estimate.

I think I need to shop around & I have no idea who will make this type of setting, & have no idea what this type of setting is even called--I just know this is the setting I want, but I want it made properly & some additional tweaks to the finished product.

What type of setting is this--& is there something wrong with it that a jewelry maker would not consider making it???

Can you give info on where I could go to get it made?

This is a pic of the setting, I don't know how to use photoshop well enough to get my info typed on that pic to show where I want the tweaks to the ring--sorry!

setting plat ruby.JPG
 

rubybeth

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
2,565
I think you should take a deep breath and wait for Good Old Gold to get back to you with a quote for custom-making what you want, as working with the stone vendor will be easiest. If they are unable to meet the request, you could try Brian Gavin Diamonds or Whiteflash, we've seen some great custom results from both vendors. I'm not sure what's super unique about the setting, but maybe it's the gemstones and the antique look/feel and the designer may have felt it wasn't his aesthetic and so doesn't have the best 'eye' for that type of setting? Just a guess. It's a lovely setting, btw! I hope GOG can help.
 

slg47

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
9,667
there is nothing wrong with cast settings. this method is in fact superior for making certain designs. your ring doesn't look like most of the rings that steven kirsch makes. in general it's good to go with someone who makes rings in asimilar style to the one that you want.
 

webdiva

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 20, 2011
Messages
1,268
For an antique style like this, go see SN Queens in LA on Hill St. Click on my topics to see my LA jeweler reviews!
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,360
Nothing wrong with cast and CAD, good lord, it is the method used by many of the best!

I would contact engagement rings direct and BGD for quotes, both have done excellent work on styles with similar feels.

And do not feel rejected about SK, that is silly ;)) He just has a style he likes to do and that is not it!
 

ame

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
10,714
I think feeling rejected is silly in this case. This style setting is not typical of the style of work he does. This is more of an antique style ring, and lacking pave work, which is what he's known for. There are plenty of other jewelers that are capable of producing something in that style.
 

catia

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
91
Well what is the better way to make this type of ring SLG? Your opinion please!!!

Is it a good candidate for cast/cad? What type of options do I have?

I am NOT in LA, am in Pittsburgh PA--I just happened to be in LA & was able to see the original poorly made setting at the actual place it was being sold. My heart sank when I saw the quality--because I LOVE it so on my finger!!!

it was also a chance at the same time to hit Hill St to see Abit at Sun Jewelry to inquire about having it made. Their settings seem quite a bit more chunky & not as delicate as this one, but Abit did say there was no issue at all having it made & there is also a location a few hours from me in Hershey PA. I just don't know how their detail is--some posted here about poor symmetry & crooked set diamonds--so that worried me. But online searches outside of PS showed happy customers. Their prices were awesome & my quote included the custom band I want too.

I've read some won't make the setting or give you a hard time if you do not purchase your stone through them.
I'm so exhausted & disenchanted now.

Anyone know who GOG uses to make their settings? I'm worried their price is gonna be out of my budget, and I also want to have options.

Any/all explainations & info is greatly appreciated!!!

Edited to add-DreamerD--I had read that cast & cad with platinum can weaken the integrity due to air bubbles because platinum is difficult to cast--that's why I was worried--if it were WG I'd not be concerned!
 

distracts

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
5,495
catia|1334686972|3173390 said:
Edited to add-DreamerD--I had read that cast & cad with platinum can weaken the integrity due to air bubbles because platinum is difficult to cast--that's why I was worried--if it were WG I'd not be concerned!
ANY metal that is cast can have the integrity weakened due to air bubbles/porosity. BUT that only happens if it is cast incorrectly. Usually it is not an issue. I would not worry with this ring about whether or not it is cast.

The kind of setting you want does not look like anything I have seen Steven Kirsch do previously. I am not surprised he turned it down. When selecting a vendor for custom work, you need to make sure that they actually do the kind of work you want, which you can usually find out just by perusing examples on that website. I'd also guess that for that ring any vendor will have to have rubies custom cut, which adds another level of customization.

I think Engagement Rings Direct would be able to do that style.
 

onedrop

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
2,216
As has been said above, based on the setting you want, I'd definitely contact Engagement Rings Direct first. I thought I'd provide a link to their "Royal T" Collection that is made up of settings that seem to be on the same order as what you are looking for: http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/royal-t-collection-pclid-16.html just so you can get a feel for their custom work. I have never worked with ERD, but I have heard it is best to contact them by phone for the best results.
 

ame

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
10,714
Not sure where in PGH you live but I worked with Banner & Banner almost 11 years ago with my ex on a project and they did a great job with it, I thought. I also had good luck with Mathews in Zelie (which I think is ON main street still....), they used GIA stones and I thought the work in their case was magnificent.
 

Circe

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
8,087
That is a very cool setting - I was just admiring it online myself, and wondering what the workmanship would be like! Drat, is all I can say.

Consider me a big ditto to everybody on SK not meaning any offense, and on the rec that you contact Mark Broumand. You might also consider Melony Pino (an eBay seller with one of the best selections of repro settings I've seen). Good luck, and keep us updated on your journey!
 

canuk-gal

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Messages
20,209
HI:

What about Singlestone?

cheers--Sharon
 

TravelingGal

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
17,193
Singlestone in LA, and Mark at ERD in NY are my votes.
 

catia

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
91
Circe--where did you see the setting online?
I only saw it on 1 site & went to see it in person. Wanna Buy A Watch?

I was in LA for other reasons & dropped by the store itself. There is beautiful stuff there--but you do need to ***closely*** inspect the reproductions.
I emailed & asked if they had the platinum in stock, I was told yes. Just like how you see it online.
I did not tell them I was coming in to view it, as it is a brick & mortar & they said it was in stock.
It was not.
I viewed the 18k WG--If you look at the pics you can see some "lumpyness" inside the basket.
When you view it in person, it looked like it was WG rhodium platd over top of the lumps, there are places where it looks like the prongs weren't fully attached & lines from the mold as well. It is also not symmetrical & the milgrain looked like it was cast-not sharp like it was put on after.

I was told not to worry about the sloopiness inside the basket!!! She popped a cz on top & said "see you don't even see the basket"
Yes, she was correct--but I was concerned about the integrity of the setting itself. I was polite & did not say this though.

If it looked proper-and was platinum-I'd have purchased it on the spot!
I wanted platinum & was told it was in stock in their store...it wasn't.
They weren't expecting me, but that should not matter, in stock is in stock.

I also saw the sterling silver copy that is used to make the mold/casts whatever they are called--it is equally poor & wonky.
Broke my heart cuz I so wanted it!

Since it's on Melrose, 3k for a setting isn't blinked at.

myringonfinger.jpg.JPG
 

webdiva

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 20, 2011
Messages
1,268
In order to help, I think we need more info.

1. What is your budget?
2. Is there a reason you'd like to stick with platinum? On a budget, white gold will save you money...
3. Have you see other vintage style rings from manufacturers like Gabriel & Co, Beverley K, etc for your ring? GOG offers discounts on MSRP. What are your favorite parts of the ring so that we can start making suggestions?

I see that the picture you have is from Wanna Buy A Watch in LA, right? http://www.wannabuyawatch.com/indpages/790443.html They don't make their own rings...so I wonder if it's from a particular manufacturer or bench. At that price, it's probably pre-made. What parts of it were not well-made so we have more of an idea of what to look for?

Beverley K :
http://www.beverleyk.com/semi-mounts.html

Gabriel & Co:
http://www.gabrielny.com/engaged/styles?collection=Vintage&metal=PT (all platinum vintage rings)

Both of these companies do customizations, btw - if they don't feature the rubies you want.

Edit: I see your response now. Ok - so WBAW is pretty overpriced, because people don't shop around in that part of town. They also have a Bev K featured much cheaper at GOG. Definitely contact GOG and see if they can source something similar to what you want in your price range - I see that you already have a custom request in. If the custom is too high, perhaps they can modify something on one of the above sites.
 

Circe

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
8,087
Yep - it was Wanna Buy a Watch (for some reason, I always want to - wanna? - say their name in a rush as just one word). They have nice styles, but like a lot of repro places, it looks like they've popped old rings into casting, ignored the fact that the engraving experienced generation loss, and called it a day. Sloppy. Always makes me wonder, would it really be so hard to just re-engrave, for what they're charging? Oy.
 

canuk-gal

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Messages
20,209
Circe|1334696158|3173564 said:
Yep - it was Wanna Buy a Watch (for some reason, I always want to - wanna? - say their name in a rush as just one word). They have nice styles, but like a lot of repro places, it looks like they've popped old rings into casting, ignored the fact that the engraving experienced generation loss, and called it a day. Sloppy. Always makes me wonder, would it really be so hard to just re-engrave, for what they're charging? Oy.

Thanks for the perspective. I've been there, and have been tempted.....

cheers--Sharon
 

glitterpants

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2011
Messages
66
I really like that setting- reminds me of the attached setting. (Found here on PS but is from MelonyPino on ebay-I think this an antique setting tho but maybe they might be able to replicated something like your ruby mount?).

I've seen some rings from SN Queens and they are really beautiful.

another suggestion, in addition to all the other once posted so far:

23rd Street Jewelers http://www.23rdstreetjewelers.com/

UniqueOEC.jpg
 

catia

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
91
Well, Sun Jewelry in LA quoted me $2600-3000 for the ring plus custom band, in plat. This was in November.
Price difference at that time btwn 18k WG & plat wasn't much, so didn't really save much dong WG.

GOG just quoted me $3600 ring only--OUCH!!!!
and I asked specifically if it was cast & cad & did not get a clear response. I did ask "Is that for a cast & cad job or all hand made hand forged?"--I had to push for the answer to that multiple times. It is my understanding that is for cast & cad & did not get a clear answer. I wanted a yes or no. I did not get one. I got descriptions of how the ring is made from a picture, then I approve, then they make the mold...I said "so cad & cast right?" no response. I'm not having the best day today on the phone--Marie seems more like she doesn't want to answer questions-you need to push to get an answer from her & still might not get it.
$3600 seems high to me. Sigh.

At Sun Jewelry, Abit said this was a very simple ring to make. He put pics on a 60" screen & you could really see the wonk & unfinshed & soldery stuff. He said no issue to have it done proper & also for it to be symmetrical. He also noted an unusual cut to the 2 triangluar cut rubies he said they were modified from their original cut-& said he's have no issue sourcing or getting them cut-whatever I needed.. I was between this setting & 1 other Sun had that was close to a Beverly K --the Beverly K did NOT look good on my finger, though I loved the setting. So this one won!
When Abit asked if I had pics of the other setting & I said yes, even he said he liked this one better on me--I got to meet his cad gut too, who was dropping off some stuff--cad guy said it was an easy job. This was the most easy going experience I had ever had with jewelry-there was zero pressure to me or to BF. I just worry about their quality. Apparently they make rings for several stores-but not much here on them, & one person posted a poorly set diamond by them (crooked in basket).

I have literally looked at thousands of settings-over years!!!-this is the one I definately want--I was almost torn from it by the JBEG "Bella"--but in the end, this ruby plat one won out for my 1 & only engagement ring.

What is a good range for price on a setting like this??? if cast & cad?
Anyone have even a guesstimate?

Glitter--I have seen & drooled over that setting-would be beautiful in ruby IMHO--but I want this one!
 

distracts

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
5,495
catia|1334696881|3173581 said:
I got descriptions of how the ring is made from a picture, then I approve, then they make the mold...I said "so cad & cast right?" no response.
They probably didn't respond again because YES that is the casting process. There was really no reason for another reply when they already answered your question. There is no reason to push for a straight yes/no answer when THEY GAVE YOU ONE. That you apparently could not understand it is not their fault.

Also, believe me, if the vendor is completely hand-forging the ring like Victor Canera or someone, YOU WILL KNOW. It is really quite rare - much rarer in the real world than experience reading PS would indicate, since many people here are jewelry connoisseurs and fans of hand-forged pieces.

If you want a "range" for the price, I would say that depending on the maker, $2,000-6,000. Most PS vendors will probably be in the $3,000-4,000 range, I would imagine, for a custom-made cast ring. Some of the hand-forgers do their work for that low, others might charge higher. Walking in to random B&M jewelers will likely get you much more variable quotes. But these are just guesstimates based on other rings I know the prices of, so don't hold vendors to them or anything.
 

bunnycat

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
2,672
You may want to consider that the ring you have posted may not actually be doable as a hand forge job. It's all the rage right now to have something said to be handforged but IMO that ring doesn't look like something that could be made strictly from sheet metal and wire.

Handforging basically entails what can be done with sheet metal and wire (example baskets and pave work). IMO, a downside would be numberous solder jobs to hold all the various bits and pieces together with the upside being the usually mentioned density of the metal.

Then, there's casting, which of course uses a mold or wax model which is then cast, which certainly gives you great control over intricate work that can't be done with wire and solder, or an easy way to do multiples of a hand fabricated model. Upside to me here is the more of if cast in one piece, the less soldering joints you have. Downside is the usually mentioned porosity of the metal.

A lot of the old rings you see I would guess were die-struck, then hand finished (based on my understanding of places like VanCraeynest that still use die striking and hand chasing/carving techniques for their jewelry). These repros may be cast or just a bad die strike job, who knows...or maybe something in between with some cast pieces soldered in so maybe they are a bit of a mongrel of all the methods.

Since you mentioned something about solder joints on the casting, I thought I ought to say that there's usually a lot less soldering involved with a cast piece. I'm actually quite partial to casting, having taken lost wax casting classes some years ago, and find it quite fun. I also thoroughly enjoyed the hand fab (forged) classes I took as well, but I can't help but notice that people automatically think of casting as low quality, and hand forge as automatically good whereas I feel like each method is equally good depending on what you are trying to go for and not everything that can be done in one can be done in the other, as far as I know.
 

webdiva

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 20, 2011
Messages
1,268
catia|1334696881|3173581 said:
Well, Sun Jewelry in LA quoted me $2600-3000 for the ring plus custom band, in plat. This was in November.
Price difference at that time btwn 18k WG & plat wasn't much, so didn't really save much dong WG.

GOG just quoted me $3600 ring only--OUCH!!!!
and I asked specifically if it was cast & cad & did not get a clear response. I did ask "Is that for a cast & cad job or all hand made hand forged?"--I had to push for the answer to that multiple times. It is my understanding that is for cast & cad & did not get a clear answer. I wanted a yes or no. I did not get one. I got descriptions of how the ring is made from a picture, then I approve, then they make the mold...I said "so cad & cast right?" no response. I'm not having the best day today on the phone--Marie seems more like she doesn't want to answer questions-you need to push to get an answer from her & still might not get it.
$3600 seems high to me. Sigh.

At Sun Jewelry, Abit said this was a very simple ring to make. He put pics on a 60" screen & you could really see the wonk & unfinshed & soldery stuff. He said no issue to have it done proper & also for it to be symmetrical. He also noted an unusual cut to the 2 triangluar cut rubies he said they were modified from their original cut-& said he's have no issue sourcing or getting them cut-whatever I needed.. I was between this setting & 1 other Sun had that was close to a Beverly K --the Beverly K did NOT look good on my finger, though I loved the setting. So this one won!
When Abit asked if I had pics of the other setting & I said yes, even he said he liked this one better on me--I got to meet his cad gut too, who was dropping off some stuff--cad guy said it was an easy job. This was the most easy going experience I had ever had with jewelry-there was zero pressure to me or to BF. I just worry about their quality. Apparently they make rings for several stores-but not much here on them, & one person posted a poorly set diamond by them (crooked in basket).

I have literally looked at thousands of settings-over years!!!-this is the one I definately want--I was almost torn from it by the JBEG "Bella"--but in the end, this ruby plat one won out for my 1 & only engagement ring.

What is a good range for price on a setting like this??? if cast & cad?
Anyone have even a guesstimate?

Glitter--I have seen & drooled over that setting-would be beautiful in ruby IMHO--but I want this one!
That's actually pretty reasonable for all that work and detail. Ditto with the custom rings being pretty expensive. Single stone STARTS at $4400 and goes up from there. Please take a look at think links I sent and see if you like anything. Otherwise, you may want to get a quote from GOG in WG. Honestly, you get what you pay for and if Sun Jewelry has some bad reviews and you are picky - you need get this done right the first time.

Call and talk to SN Queens - they suck at email. And also call 23rd street to get a quote - their Manhattan Beach office only.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,539
Marie is not the ring maker, so all she was doing was giving you a price quote which I assume was your request. You are probably not going to get that ring hand forged for $3600, so it is safe to assume it is cast. I got quotes last year from Singlestone on two rings that were around $3500. So I think you can expect that amount of higher to go custom. You may come out a little less if you pick out a setting from someone like Beverley K. Look through their rings if you haven't already...they are quite beautiful.

http://www.beverleyk.com/
 

catia

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
91
Distracts--I find this comment a *bit harsh*
Quote: "They probably didn't respond again because YES that is the casting process. There was really no reason for another reply when they already answered your question. There is no reason to push for a straight yes/no answer when THEY GAVE YOU ONE. ****That you apparently could not understand it is not their fault."**** end quote.


fact is--I was asking a question & I needed clarification--which is why I asked -TWICE-I am not a jeweler, they are.
If it is obvious to you that I do not understand--then it should be obvious to the jeweler, especially being that I asked more than once.
I'm not a jeweler, I'm a woman getting engaged asking about a ring.

I am a customer who is trying to make a purchase. I wanted clarification--I asked "is the price for cast & cad?".

No, I could not, did not understand her answer. So I asked a very direct question, a second time, in an effort to seek the clairification I needed as a person who is trying to understand. I understand cast means cast & cad means cad--I do not understand the subtleties in between, & at no time did she use the words cast or cad--so I needed to be sure--because I don't fully understand & am attempting to make an informed purchase, & I don't pretend to know. If my question sounded stupid, redundant or uninformed, it is because I am out of my element totally & trying to understand. If I were a jeweler or even a person who has a lot of jewelry made--that'd be different.

It's my opinion that the only truly stupid question is the question NOT ASKED. And that as a general rule, even in geneal pleasantires, if you ask a person a question, you should get an answer. Otherwise you'd not ask in the 1st place.


Ok, onto other things, I'm thinking I should contact Sun Jewelers & ask more questions. Abit did say he thought the ring could partly be made from wire...In my not understanding the process, to me that sounded horrible-Now I see it might be better -but is making the ring from wire & the head from cast/cad good?

Seriously--I'm not a jewelry person--so if I sound like I need it spelled out--it's because I do.

If cast/cad is good for this type of ring, I'm fine with it.
The only reason I was looking at hand forged is because I read some horror stories online that cast platinum is often a cover up job & cracks & gets covered up due to air bubbles.

I didn't want WG cuz I do not want the maintenance of getting it replated.
 

webdiva

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 20, 2011
Messages
1,268
Honestly, take any reviews outside of PS with a grain of salt. Most people know nothing about jewelry, and if the ring at WBAW was not up to your standards - you will NOT be happy with the outcome at Sun Jewelry. And if this research process is making you upset already, having a ring custom made is going to seriously freak you out. Just being honest here. I went through the process of looking to have an antique style ring made and visited all the top reputable jewelers. Have you looked at the Bev K and Gabriel & Co settings yet?
 

distracts

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
5,495
catia|1334708288|3173762 said:
I understand cast means cast & cad means cad--I do not understand the subtleties in between, & at no time did she use the words cast or cad--so I needed to be sure--because I don't fully understand & am attempting to make an informed purchase, & I don't pretend to know.
But the problem is that not only do you not know the difference between them, you don't even know what they are. CAD is computer-assisted design. It is a method of design and wax-injection model-making that allows the jewelry designer to design the piece on the computer, then have a special machine make the model or mold. Before they have the model or mold made, they send you the CAD design for your approval. The casting is a separate process, done using a mold (made, often, from a wax model), of injecting the metal into the mold to form the jewelry piece. If you had done five minutes of basic research on what those methods were, you would have known that they were answering your question. It is not THEIR fault that you were using words like you knew what they meant without actually knowing what they meant. Okay, you have clarified here that you had no idea what cast/cad meant and were just repeating words you'd heard somewhere. But they cannot be faulted for not knowing that, especially since they went ahead and explained the process to you. Which, again, if you had done ANY research on cast/cad versus forging, you would know is the cast/cad process, as molds are never involved in handforging.

I'm sorry if that comes across as harsh but it's very frustrating to see you demanding explanations without seeming to put forth the effort on your part to even just wikipedia these things. I think if you spent a little more time researching instead of jumping right into the process, you would be MUCH less stressed out about it.

A cast ring will be fine for the design you want. Handforging is more desirable when the ring is particularly delicate as it compresses the metal and thus makes it stronger. But a ring similar to the one you like will not need that extra structural integrity as it looks fine. Many manufacturers do not have problem with platinum porosity. At any rate, the ones I have seen with problems have been with mass manufacturers, not any of the custom vendors people have recommended you go with. If you still have concerns, once your ring is finished you should take it to an independent appraiser, as sometimes they are able to identify those problems.
 
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