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LadyMaria

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prince.of.preslav|1305327644|2921168 said:
I wouldn't compare the Prince de Ligne's title to that of the Dukes of Gloucester and of Kent but rather to the Duke of Norfolk (the most senior British Dukes outside of the RF), the Dukes of Richmond and the Dukes of Devonshire (both from the 17th century).
The current Dukes of Gloucester and of Kent are directly decended from the Duke of Kent & Strathearn, Queen Victoria's father. They are his great-great-great-grandchildren. But the current Dukedom of Kent is indeed a new creation - from 1934. The current Dukedom of Gloucester is also a rather new creation - from 1928, but the title itself is much older, the first creation being in 1385.

Bobby

So shouldn't Queen Victoria have inherited the Dukedom of Kent upon the death of her father? Since he didn't have any sons, didn't she become the Duchess of Kent? I thought the title went extinct (thus leading to a new creation) only if there was no offspring at all. Or was there an older set of rules that said girls couldn't inherit the title? Kind of odd that Victoria could inherit the title of "Queen" but not "Duchess?"

And isn't there another odd set of rules when the monarch inherits a title? Doesn't that have to do with how Prince Edward is supposed to become the Duke of Edinburgh? Would that end up being a new creation, even though Edward is Phillip's son? Did Victoria become Duchess of Kent, but then something else happened when that title merged with the crown?

I'm confused :( ....and I know Bobby will save me...
 

prince.of.preslav

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LadyMaria

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Congratulations to Queen Elizabeth II, now the second longest serving monarch of Great Britain, having passed the length of the reign of George III. God Save the Queen!

queenelizabethyellow.jpg
 

LadyMaria

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I think this is a very sweet picture. When I was watching the wedding, I missed when the veil was lifted (I don't know if the camera moved or what). I didn't realize how deep Catherine had to bend to allow her father to flip the veil. I just saw this for the first time in one of the many :oops: magazines I've purchased. The close-up picture in my magazine shows a very tender look on her father's face.

It reminds me of my dad at my wedding, except that my dad turned really pale and my mom thought he was going to pass out!

veillift.jpg
 

prince.of.preslav

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LadyMaria|1305328634|2921180 said:
So shouldn't Queen Victoria have inherited the Dukedom of Kent upon the death of her father?
.............

I'm confused :( ....and I know Bobby will save me...

There's one answer...and it's that this is a rather complicated issue. Some titles have a special remainder which allows females to succeed it - the Dukedom of Fife and the Earldom Mountbatten of Burma come to mind. The Dukedoms of Kent & Strathearn didn't have such remainder, that's why Princess Victoria of Kent couldn't succeed to the title. Since there were't sons, the titles merged with the Crown and was eligible for re-creation. The Dukedom of Strathearn was granted to QV's third son Prince Arthur, while the D-dom of Kent was granted to George V's 3rd son Prince George.

Edinburgh - if Prince Philip dies before The Queen (God forbid!) the PoW will become the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh, in addition to his other titles. Once he ascends to the throne, the title will automatically merge with the Crown and then can be re-created for the Earl of Wessex.
If the DoE passes away after The Queen (and assuming Charles isn't scipped as King), his titles will automatically merge with the Crown and then they can be re-created for the EoW. But there's the possibility the Charles doesn't become King (lets say he becomes a Catholic) then William will become monarch and his father (Charles) 2nd Duke of Edinburgh (I think this title would suit him well).

This is the easies way I could explain this. I hope it's understandable and makes sence.
Regards,
Bobby
 

LadyMaria

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prince.of.preslav|1305330189|2921220 said:
LadyMaria|1305328634|2921180 said:
So shouldn't Queen Victoria have inherited the Dukedom of Kent upon the death of her father?
.............

I'm confused :( ....and I know Bobby will save me...

There's one answer...and it's that this is a rather complicated issue.
Bobby

That's good enough for me! :D
 

jean95404

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Duke of Kent's title not going to HRH Princess Victoria

It has been my understanding, though I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong, that British titles are inherited only by males in direct descent of the title holder. There may be other countries in which a female could inherit the title if she were the only surviving descendant of the male title holder. France, I think, was one of those countries. British titles for women, that are granted by the Crown, cannot be inherited. i.e. Baroness Thatcher
 

jean95404

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prince.of.preslav|1305330189|2921220 said:
LadyMaria|1305328634|2921180 said:
So shouldn't Queen Victoria have inherited the Dukedom of Kent upon the death of her father?
.............

I'm confused :( ....and I know Bobby will save me...

There's one answer...and it's that this is a rather complicated issue. Some titles have a special remainder which allows females to succeed it - the Dukedom of Fife and the Earldom Mountbatten of Burma come to mind. The Dukedoms of Kent & Strathearn didn't have such remainder, that's why Princess Victoria of Kent couldn't succeed to the title. Since there were't sons, the titles merged with the Crown and was eligible for re-creation. The Dukedom of Strathearn was granted to QV's third son Prince Arthur, while the D-dom of Kent was granted to George V's 3rd son Prince George.

Edinburgh - if Prince Philip dies before The Queen (God forbid!) the PoW will become the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh, in addition to his other titles. Once he ascends to the throne, the title will automatically merge with the Crown and then can be re-created for the Earl of Wessex.
If the DoE passes away after The Queen (and assuming Charles isn't scipped as King), his titles will automatically merge with the Crown and then they can be re-created for the EoW. But there's the possibility the Charles doesn't become King (lets say he becomes a Catholic) then William will become monarch and his father (Charles) 2nd Duke of Edinburgh (I think this title would suit him well).

This is the easies way I could explain this. I hope it's understandable and makes sence.
Regards,
Bobby




I politely beg to differ....Prince Edward is expected to take the title of the Duke of Edinburgh upon the passing of his father whether his father survives Her Majesty or not. He, Prince Edward, has already undertaken participation in many of the activities of his father in relation to the charities and stewardship that are involved with the Duke of Edinburgh. Prince Charles will not accumulate more titles than he already holds. That is one reason why he was provided the somewhat reduced title of "Earl of Wessex" rather than receiving a Dukedom (is that even correct?) upon his marriage to Sophie. The title Duke of Edinburgh is rather revered by his children and it will be quite an honor for Edward to receive it.
 

JewelFreak

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Jean, unless it was part of the letters patent at the creation of the Dukedom of Edinburgh for P. Philip, I think Bobby is right. The title would automatically go to the oldest son when the title holder dies. If Prince Edward is created DofE, it will be by the specific grant of the Queen or Charles, if he has succeeded to the throne when Philip dies.

With the Earldom of Mountbatten Burma, for instance, the letters patent allowed for female succession. From Wikipedia:

The letters patent creating the title are rare in that they specified a remainder allowing the title to descend failing heirs male,

...to his eldest daughter Patricia Edwina Victoria, Baroness Brabourne, by the name, style and title of Baroness Romsey, of Romsey in the County of Southampton and the heirs male of her body lawfully begotten; and in -default of such issue to every other daughter lawfully begotten of the said Louis Francis Albert Victor Nicholas, Viscount Mountbatten of Burma, successively in order of seniority of age and priority of birth and to the heirs male of their bodies lawfully begotten...

As a result Lord Mountbatten of Burma's eldest daughter Patricia succeeded as The Countess Mountbatten of Burma upon the former's death. Should the legitimate male line of descent of the 2nd Countess Mountbatten of Burma go extinct, the title will be inherited by her sister, Lady Pamela Hicks, and her legitimate heirs male. Should the legitimate male line of both sisters go extinct, the titles will become extinct.

The subsidiary titles of the Earldom are: Viscount Mountbatten of Burma, of Romsey in the County of Southampton (created 1946), and Baron Romsey, of Romsey in the County of Southampton (1947). Both of these titles, in the Peerage of the United Kingdom, have the same special remainder as the Earldom.

Lord Romsey was the courtesy title by which Lady Mountbatten of Burma's eldest son and heir was known until he succeeded his father as 8th Lord Brabourne.

I've wondered about Scottish titles -- in "olden times" there were quite a number of noble titles held in their own right by women (probably in absence of a male heir). I don't know if that is still done now, but in the history I've read through the years I have the impression it was an earlier practice. Could be mistaken, I haven't looked it up.

--- Laurie
 

neil31uk

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JewelFreak|1305372382|2921616 said:
Jean, unless it was part of the letters patent at the creation of the Dukedom of Edinburgh for P. Philip, I think Bobby is right. The title would automatically go to the oldest son when the title holder dies. If Prince Edward is created DofE, it will be by the specific grant of the Queen or Charles, if he has succeeded to the throne when Philip dies.

With the Earldom of Mountbatten Burma, for instance, the letters patent allowed for female succession. From Wikipedia:

The letters patent creating the title are rare in that they specified a remainder allowing the title to descend failing heirs male,

...to his eldest daughter Patricia Edwina Victoria, Baroness Brabourne, by the name, style and title of Baroness Romsey, of Romsey in the County of Southampton and the heirs male of her body lawfully begotten; and in -default of such issue to every other daughter lawfully begotten of the said Louis Francis Albert Victor Nicholas, Viscount Mountbatten of Burma, successively in order of seniority of age and priority of birth and to the heirs male of their bodies lawfully begotten...

As a result Lord Mountbatten of Burma's eldest daughter Patricia succeeded as The Countess Mountbatten of Burma upon the former's death. Should the legitimate male line of descent of the 2nd Countess Mountbatten of Burma go extinct, the title will be inherited by her sister, Lady Pamela Hicks, and her legitimate heirs male. Should the legitimate male line of both sisters go extinct, the titles will become extinct.

The subsidiary titles of the Earldom are: Viscount Mountbatten of Burma, of Romsey in the County of Southampton (created 1946), and Baron Romsey, of Romsey in the County of Southampton (1947). Both of these titles, in the Peerage of the United Kingdom, have the same special remainder as the Earldom.

Lord Romsey was the courtesy title by which Lady Mountbatten of Burma's eldest son and heir was known until he succeeded his father as 8th Lord Brabourne.

I've wondered about Scottish titles -- in "olden times" there were quite a number of noble titles held in their own right by women (probably in absence of a male heir). I don't know if that is still done now, but in the history I've read through the years I have the impression it was an earlier practice. Could be mistaken, I haven't looked it up.

--- Laurie

I don't know about Scotish titles before the Act of Union that greated Great Britain (a later act of union created the United Kingdom) but all titles created after the union were done so in the Peerage of Great Britain and therefore by the same rules.

Another example of a remainder for a title to be inherited by a woman is the Duke of Fife, created for the Earl of Fife whom married Queen Victoria's granddaughter HRH Princess Louise. Originally he was made Duke of Fife and Marquis MacDuff. However, a second patent was granted after it was clear that the Duke would have no sons. This patent contained the remainder for female-line inheritence of the title and changed the subsidury title to Earl MacDuff.

The interesting thing here is that the two patents co-existed, the frist creation ceased to exist upon the first Duke's death and the second continued. It is possible that HM QEII could have granted such a patent on the DoE title (or do so inthe future or immediately following the DoE's death. Otherewise, as has been mentioned before, the title will legally go to Prince Charles and then merge with the Crown upon his succession.
 

jean95404

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TL|1305310286|2920913 said:
BTW, the infamous "HAT" is up for bids. All proceeds going to charity.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Princess-Beatri...ssories_UK&hash=item35b20d924d#ht_2715wt_1139


OK, I am going just come out and say it, I hate that hat. Totally, completely and utterly. I think it was such a "don't look at the bride, look at me" kind of statement hat. Now that I've gotten that off my chest, so to speak, has anyone else thought that the hat design mimicked the new Middleton coat of arms with the bow/garland at the top?
 

jean95404

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JewelFreak, Bobbie, Lady Maria and Laurie,
Thanks to all of you for providing information on the titles. It is so wonderful to have such wonderful resources as you all provide, not just on jewelry but all things Royal. Cheers to you all!
 

LadyMaria

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Here is a nice close-up of the Duchess of Cambridge's wedding band. Apparently, the reason William had a hard time getting it on was that the ring is a size too small. Catherine had lost so much weight which resulted in the resizing of her engagement ring. She tried to predict ahead what her size would be on her wedding day and ended up ordering her wedding ring a size too small.

cwweddingring.jpg
 

LadyMaria

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More pictures from the Windsor Horse Show, starring the Earl and Countess of Wessex and their daughter, Lady Louise.

Perhaps the conversation went something like this (in order with the pictures).

"Mummy, Daddy, did you see that crazy thing that Cousin Beatrice wore to Cousin William's Wedding?"

"Ug, it was awful," replies her mother, covering her face at the memory of the monstrosity.

"Good grief yes, it was awful," chimes in the Earl. "Seriously, it stuck this far off her head!"

"I don't know what Andrew was thinking, letting her wear it," continues the Earl, hanging his head, not knowing whether to laugh or cry. "Don't ever get any ideas about whacky hats, Louise!"

hatstory4.jpg

hatstory3.jpg

Hatstory2.jpg

hatstory1.jpg
 

T L

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jean95404|1305412495|2921963 said:
TL|1305310286|2920913 said:
BTW, the infamous "HAT" is up for bids. All proceeds going to charity.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Princess-Beatri...ssories_UK&hash=item35b20d924d#ht_2715wt_1139


OK, I am going just come out and say it, I hate that hat. Totally, completely and utterly. I think it was such a "don't look at the bride, look at me" kind of statement hat. Now that I've gotten that off my chest, so to speak, has anyone else thought that the hat design mimicked the new Middleton coat of arms with the bow/garland at the top?


So was Pippa's dress for that matter! :lol:
 

T L

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LadyMaria|1305329840|2921206 said:
Congratulations to Queen Elizabeth II, now the second longest serving monarch of Great Britain, having passed the length of the reign of George III. God Save the Queen!

Nice photos of HM. Was this taken on the wedding day? It seems she has on the same yellow outfit. Lovely broach.
 

LadyMaria

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TL|1305436857|2922169 said:
LadyMaria|1305329840|2921206 said:
Congratulations to Queen Elizabeth II, now the second longest serving monarch of Great Britain, having passed the length of the reign of George III. God Save the Queen!

Nice photos of HM. Was this taken on the wedding day? It seems she has on the same yellow outfit. Lovely broach.

This was taken for during her 80th birthday celebrations.
 

neil31uk

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prince.of.preslav|1305328708|2921182 said:
The Duchess of Cornwall yesterday attended the 2nd day of the Windsor Horse Show, along with her mother-in-law The Queen. The Duchess wore her diamond and pearl earrings and a lovely turquoise and diamond brooch:
543656.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/06IY7K8dti6V5/x610.jpg

Later that day HRH attended The Classic BRIT Awards at Royal Albert Hall. For the occasion she wore her turquoise and diamond necklace and earrings:
114127161.jpg
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/114127161/WireImage

Bobby

I don't always like turquoise jewels, but these are rather lovely pieces. Am I write in thinking the necklace is part of a set that the PoW gifted to her?
 

JewelFreak

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neil31uk|1305402172|2921868 said:
JewelFreak|1305372382|2921616 said:
I've wondered about Scottish titles -- in "olden times" there were quite a number of noble titles held in their own right by women (probably in absence of a male heir). I don't know if that is still done now, but in the history I've read through the years I have the impression it was an earlier practice. Could be mistaken, I haven't looked it up.

I don't know about Scotish titles before the Act of Union that greated Great Britain (a later act of union created the United Kingdom) but all titles created after the union were done so in the Peerage of Great Britain and therefore by the same rules.

Another example of a remainder for a title to be inherited by a woman is the Duke of Fife, created for the Earl of Fife whom married Queen Victoria's granddaughter HRH Princess Louise. Originally he was made Duke of Fife and Marquis MacDuff. However, a second patent was granted after it was clear that the Duke would have no sons. This patent contained the remainder for female-line inheritence of the title and changed the subsidury title to Earl MacDuff.

The interesting thing here is that the two patents co-existed, the frist creation ceased to exist upon the first Duke's death and the second continued. It is possible that HM QEII could have granted such a patent on the DoE title (or do so inthe future or immediately following the DoE's death. Otherewise, as has been mentioned before, the title will legally go to Prince Charles and then merge with the Crown upon his succession.

Interesting info, Neil. You-know-what was alive & well -- the subsidiary title downgraded to Earl when it was apparent a woman would inherit it. Haha!

Actually I'm thinking of pre-Stewart & Union times. I read a lot of British medieval history. In those days it seems to me there were serveral female titleholders in right of succession -- possibly part of the patent on the titles' creation or shortly thereafter as necessary, I don't know. Will have to look up specific examples.

Neil -- let's say, under the rules of the Peerage of GB, a non-royal Scottish noble wants to amend the succession to include daughters if there are no sons. Would the monarch need to consent? The Sergeant at Arms or whoever it is would have to approve, I'm sure -- but would it go also to the king or queen in the case of a non-royal title?

--- Laurie
 

neil31uk

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JewelFreak|1305463954|2922252 said:
neil31uk|1305402172|2921868 said:
JewelFreak|1305372382|2921616 said:
I've wondered about Scottish titles -- in "olden times" there were quite a number of noble titles held in their own right by women (probably in absence of a male heir). I don't know if that is still done now, but in the history I've read through the years I have the impression it was an earlier practice. Could be mistaken, I haven't looked it up.

I don't know about Scotish titles before the Act of Union that greated Great Britain (a later act of union created the United Kingdom) but all titles created after the union were done so in the Peerage of Great Britain and therefore by the same rules.

Another example of a remainder for a title to be inherited by a woman is the Duke of Fife, created for the Earl of Fife whom married Queen Victoria's granddaughter HRH Princess Louise. Originally he was made Duke of Fife and Marquis MacDuff. However, a second patent was granted after it was clear that the Duke would have no sons. This patent contained the remainder for female-line inheritence of the title and changed the subsidury title to Earl MacDuff.

The interesting thing here is that the two patents co-existed, the frist creation ceased to exist upon the first Duke's death and the second continued. It is possible that HM QEII could have granted such a patent on the DoE title (or do so inthe future or immediately following the DoE's death. Otherewise, as has been mentioned before, the title will legally go to Prince Charles and then merge with the Crown upon his succession.

Interesting info, Neil. You-know-what was alive & well -- the subsidiary title downgraded to Earl when it was apparent a woman would inherit it. Haha!

Actually I'm thinking of pre-Stewart & Union times. I read a lot of British medieval history. In those days it seems to me there were serveral female titleholders in right of succession -- possibly part of the patent on the titles' creation or shortly thereafter as necessary, I don't know. Will have to look up specific examples.

Neil -- let's say, under the rules of the Peerage of GB, a non-royal Scottish noble wants to amend the succession to include daughters if there are no sons. Would the monarch need to consent? The Sergeant at Arms or whoever it is would have to approve, I'm sure -- but would it go also to the king or queen in the case of a non-royal title?

--- Laurie

Haha, yes it does seem strange that the subsidury was changed! That would not happen today!

I had a read of a few things, and there seem to be several reasons I can see for more frequent female peers in the Scotish Peerage (pre-Union and Stewart era).

1) There is an implicit link between a title and land in the Scotish Peerage that has never existed in quite the same way in England. So in some cases where the land has been inherited by a woman she has automaticly inherited the title.

2) In the Scotish Peerage there has been a tendency to grant titles with a view to rewarding a family, rather than just the original person to whom the title is first granted. This has ment an automatic inclution of a remainder for inheritance by a female line.

3) Posthumas granting of a title to a widow to honour the late husband. This seems to have been done a lot int he Scotich Peerage, but not the English Peerage.

All amendments to the patent granting a peerage have to be passed by the monarch, both during the seperate peerages of Soctland and England and the subsequent peerages of Great Britain and then the United Kingdom.

In the United Kingdom Peerage Life Peers are appointed by the honours commision (as these are primerally political appointments now) and the Queen enobles the individual on the advice of the honours commision. Hereditary peerages are only created int he UK now for members of the royal family and a few politians.

I hope that helps?

Neil
 

prince.of.preslav

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neil31uk|1305463761|2922251 said:
I don't always like turquoise jewels, but these are rather lovely pieces. Am I write in thinking the necklace is part of a set that the PoW gifted to her?

Here's what Hello! says about the jewels Camilla wore at the party for the PoW's 50th birthday and also at The Classic BRIT Awards earlier this week -
It was suggested the intricate turquoise and diamond necklace with matching earrings were handed down to her by her great-grandmother Alice Keppel, who was famously the mistress of Charles' ancestor, King Edward VII. However, the theory was later quashed, and it was reported that it was simply a rarely-worn treasure from the family collection.
The Prince of Wales has given her other jewels.

Bobby
 

T L

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The Duke of Northumberland's daughter, Lady Catherine Percy, got married in Feb of this year. I love the tiara. Does anyone know anything more about it (except that it's a bit crooked on her head :???: )

Pretty necklace too.

katiepercy.JPG
 

T L

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LadyMaria|1305428834|2922104 said:
More pictures from the Windsor Horse Show, starring the Earl and Countess of Wessex and their daughter, Lady Louise.

Perhaps the conversation went something like this (in order with the pictures).

"Mummy, Daddy, did you see that crazy thing that Cousin Beatrice wore to Cousin William's Wedding?"

"Ug, it was awful," replies her mother, covering her face at the memory of the monstrosity.

"Good grief yes, it was awful," chimes in the Earl. "Seriously, it stuck this far off her head!"

"I don't know what Andrew was thinking, letting her wear it," continues the Earl, hanging his head, not knowing whether to laugh or cry. "Don't ever get any ideas about whacky hats, Louise!"

Did you see the photos of her with her grandmother, the Queen, at the show? Very sweet, HM is playing with Louise's hat.
 

prince.of.preslav

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TL|1305603222|2923678 said:
The Duke of Northumberland's daughter, Lady Catherine Percy, got married in Feb of this year. I love the tiara. Does anyone know anything more about it (except that it's a bit crooked on her head :???: )

Pretty necklace too.

The tiara and necklace were mentioned on page 5 of the Tiaras thread.
Please, take a look at my last post there on page 7.

Regards,
Bobby
 

prince.of.preslav

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alexander1917|1305652658|2924036 said:
first day of the Ireland visit. HM wore one of QV bow brooches and later a ruby brooch.

Thank you, Alexander, for the photos! It's so very nice to see Her Majesty finally making a State Visit to Ireland. I know this is something she was really looking forward to. It's also nice to see her wearing her Andrew Grima brooch, ap resent from the Duke of Edinburgh.
Lookinf forward to photos from the State Banquet.

Bobby
 

prince.of.preslav

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Happy 40th birthday the HRH Princess Maxima of the Netherlands!!! May there be many, many happy returns, Ma'am!!!

PPE09090819.jpg
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6a00d8341c648253ef0133ecd15632970b-640wi.jpg
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Bobby
 
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