Ring of Life/Death pt 3: Enter the Diamond

[Avatar345]

A new challenger emerges!!

To catch us up, ultimately I went with the I-colored 2.01 stone referenced in the last thread... that ring is being made now and set to ship soon. BUT, I saw this one today and placed it on an immediate hold - should I jump ship to it?

Link to Cert - New

2.01 Carat round diamond

This 2.01 carat round diamond I color vs1 clarity has Excellent proportions and a diamond grading report from GIA

www.jamesallen.com

And the original/current diamond...

Link to Cert - Original

2.01 Carat round diamond

2.01 Carat round diamond

www.jamesallen.com

The main differences between the two are that the original is an SI1 w/a knot (though seemingly small/minor), and the new one is a VS1 with what I think many around here would consider "more" ideal proportions. But the original came in a 1.0 on the HCA and the new one a 1.2

On top of that, I got a scope result for the first one which was really pretty strong; this one has no scope image I can reference, but visually from the video, it *looks* like it should be decent/solid from the arrows patterning, and the specs are right in the range one would otherwise hope for.

The price difference between the two is ~$1,500; should I jump to this one, or are the possible gains too ephemeral? I'm almost tempted from the clarity standpoint alone, but I just want to be sure I'm not set to *lose* light performance in the process.

 

[lovedogs]

I personally prefer the aesthetics of the new stone vs the original you chose, PLUS this one doesn't have a knot. I usually don't care about VS1 vs eye clean SI1, but an option that lets you avoid the knot is a good idea IMHO.

Also, 1.0 vs 1.2 doesn't mean anything on the HCA. It's a rejection tool so anything over 2 should probably be rejected (though not always). But once score is under 2, then choosing requires more info (pictures, videos, etc).

 

[Avatar345]

I personally prefer the aesthetics of the new stone vs the original you chose, PLUS this one doesn't have a knot. I usually don't care about VS1 vs eye clean SI1, but an option that lets you avoid the knot is a good idea IMHO.

Also, 1.0 vs 1.2 doesn't mean anything on the HCA. It's a rejection tool so anything over 2 should probably be rejected (though not always). But once score is under 2, then choosing requires more info (pictures, videos, etc).

Yeah, I think I'm looking at things sort of like you are right now...
Man I wish it had a scope image, but then again how often would a diamond with these proportions leak light? And does light leakage become less likely with a smaller table?

 

[sledge]

I’d spend the $1,500 and gamble on this last stone you found. The proportions are more ideal. The stone is more visually appealing. I like the MBF in an I color (assuming no negative effects). And I’m not buying a knot in a stone.

I’d push JA for an IS image but if they can’t or won’t provide them buy your own ASET scope (tells you more than IS) and test in the comfort of your home. Worst case scenario, it sucks and you buy the one with the knot or another stone.

That said....there is a reason that images matter. This wouldn’t change my opinion on what to do. Shopping virtual stones you have to accept some risk to find the diamond in the rough, pun intended.

Why Advanced Images Matter...A Bad 34.5/40.8...

I'm just as guilty as anyone. Helping someone find a stone and run across one with that 34.5/40.8 combo. You smile. You then run through the rest of the proportions.... 57 table, 61.7 depth, 75 LGF's, 50 stars and medium-slightly thick girdle....check, check, check,check and check You...

www.pricescope.com

 

[tyty333]

I would jump...the numbers are better on the new stone, no dark inclusion, no knot, and the stone actually looks better.

I dont care for the side view of the first stone you found (the one you already bought). I think this would
be visible if you're looking. It looks worst at some angles and better at others. This capture was sort of in the middle.

 

[Avatar345]

I’d spend the $1,500 and gamble on this last stone you found. The proportions are more ideal. The stone is more visually appealing. I like the MBF in an I color (assuming no negative effects). And I’m not buying a knot in a stone.

I’d push JA for an IS image but if they can’t or won’t provide them buy your own ASET scope (tells you more than IS) and test in the comfort of your home. Worst case scenario, it sucks and you buy the one with the knot or another stone.

That said....there is a reason that images matter. This wouldn’t change my opinion on what to do. Shopping virtual stones you have to accept some risk to find the diamond in the rough, pun intended.

Why Advanced Images Matter...A Bad 34.5/40.8...

I'm just as guilty as anyone. Helping someone find a stone and run across one with that 34.5/40.8 combo. You smile. You then run through the rest of the proportions.... 57 table, 61.7 depth, 75 LGF's, 50 stars and medium-slightly thick girdle....check, check, check,check and check You...

www.pricescope.com

Just read through that entire thread... a result like that honestly terrifies me

If you're saying even with that risk though it might be worth the gamble, maybe that's what I should do.

Q: With an Idealscope/ASET, how accurate (and easy) would it be to get a read off of a stone that's already been set? Because I don't think I could do anything other than simply place this stone in the existing setting and go from there...

Another option would be to let that order continue on the track it's on, and take delivery of this diamond loose, and examine it that way. It makes me a *little* nervous though to have two ~$15K+ expenditures floating around independently of each other

 

[Avatar345]

I would jump...the numbers are better on the new stone, no dark inclusion, no knot, and the stone actually looks better.

I dont care for the side view of the first stone you found (the one you already bought). I think this would
be visible if you're looking. It looks worst at some angles and better at others. This capture was sort of in the middle.

Yeah, luckily that inclusion doesn't really register at all face up - but from the side profile you *do* see it, having seen it in person

That said I'm hopeful a prong right near it (not on top but beside it ) would sort-of obstruct the sight-line there and render it hidden

I agree that the other stone looks better on the inclusion front regardless, no question

 

[musicloveranthony]

You already made your choice. You can spend your whole life second guessing it, or you can enjoy the BEAUTIFUL ring you are having made for you!!

 

[Avatar345]

You already made your choice. You can spend your whole life second guessing it, or you can enjoy the BEAUTIFUL ring you are having made for you!!

LOL guess which one of those I'm going to pick!!!
It's going to be a loooong rest of my life :p

 

[musicloveranthony]

LOL guess which one of those I'm going to pick!!!
It's going to be a loooong rest of my life :p

Hahaaaaa ahhh... well

 

[sledge]

You can use an ASET scope on a mounted or unmounted diamond. Obviously the prongs will be in the way, but you will get the vast majority of the stone. Same deal with an IS scope.

Where you run into problems is trying to use a H&A scope. While the ASET, IS and arrows images all focus on the face up (top) view of the diamond, the hearts actually focuses on a face down (bottom) view of the diamond. Because the stone would be mounted, you won't be able to get a hearts view.

And while I can appreciate the mentality of just enjoying what you have, I think the case is different here. You are at the beginning of the journey. You have a better potential candidate in your price range with multiple advantages. I think now is the exact time you make the change so you don't hopefully have regrets later and consequently not enjoy your diamond as much as you should.

By the way, while the IS image of the first stone you picked is pretty good, it does have those lighter areas under the table. Those should be red. So we know it leaks a little.

Also, I know there are symmetry issues so if you were to see a hearts image this would become more apparent. You can easily see this in the JA video, but I intentionally used the IS image as it's a tad easier. The arrow at the approximate 8 o'clock position is offset so it's closer to 9 than 7. And the arrow at the 9 o'clock position is offset so it sits closer to 8 than 10. This creates visibly larger gaps between 7 and 8 & then also 9 and 10, while creating a small gap between 8 & 9.

Additionally the arrow near the 5 o'clock position is shifted closer towards the 6 o'clock position. And the intersection of all the yellow lines don't align together in the middle of the diamond further indicating some symmetry misalignment.

Hopefully that makes sense. My point isn't to bash your first selection, but to say it wasn't perfect either. Which makes me more willing to gamble on a stone that at least has better proportions, looks more promising in the video & will be more firey and lively because of the proportions.

 

[Avatar345]

You can use an ASET scope on a mounted or unmounted diamond. Obviously the prongs will be in the way, but you will get the vast majority of the stone. Same deal with an IS scope.

Where you run into problems is trying to use a H&A scope. While the ASET, IS and arrows images all focus on the face up (top) view of the diamond, the hearts actually focuses on a face down (bottom) view of the diamond. Because the stone would be mounted, you won't be able to get a hearts view.

And while I can appreciate the mentality of just enjoying what you have, I think the case is different here. You are at the beginning of the journey. You have a better potential candidate in your price range with multiple advantages. I think now is the exact time you make the change so you don't hopefully have regrets later and consequently not enjoy your diamond as much as you should.

By the way, while the IS image of the first stone you picked is pretty good, it does have those lighter areas under the table. Those should be red. So we know it leaks a little.

Also, I know there are symmetry issues so if you were to see a hearts image this would become more apparent. You can easily see this in the JA video, but I intentionally used the IS image as it's a tad easier. The arrow at the approximate 8 o'clock position is offset so it's closer to 9 than 7. And the arrow at the 9 o'clock position is offset so it sits closer to 8 than 10. This creates visibly larger gaps between 7 and 8 & then also 9 and 10, while creating a small gap between 8 & 9.

Additionally the arrow near the 5 o'clock position is shifted closer towards the 6 o'clock position. And the intersection of all the yellow lines don't align together in the middle of the diamond further indicating some symmetry misalignment.

Hopefully that makes sense. My point isn't to bash your first selection, but to say it wasn't perfect either. Which makes me more willing to gamble on a stone that at least has better proportions, looks more promising in the video & will be more firey and lively because of the proportions.

Oh no, not taking it as bashing at all - there's always room for improvement!

Yeah right now I'm inclined to make the move, knowing my downside risk/regret is limited to its light return performance potentially being worse than the existing stone. With the existing stone, I have a few things that would haunt me from the inclusion standpoint. Of course, then again the knot seems to be a tiny item on a crown facet, so it's the unknown there of whether it even matters or not. It doesn't until it does is all I know.

Because I *do* think that a lot of information can be derived by how the stones appear/behave optically in these videos even without the benefit of scope images, let me ask you about this phenomenon and see what your thoughts are...

On the new diamond, when the image is rotated slowly frame by frame the contrast arrows seem to "drag"/pull/widen a little more than some other diamonds I've seen before they finally shift into non-contrasted 'projections.' Is that indicative of anything in your mind? Obviously it's indicative of something, but didn't know whether it was a function of the depth relative the pavilion angle, the table relative the pavilions, or something else

 

[yssie]

On the new diamond, when the image is rotated slowly frame by frame the contrast arrows seem to "drag"/pull/widen a little more than some other diamonds I've seen before they finally shift into non-contrasted 'projections.' Is that indicative of anything in your mind? Obviously it's indicative of something, but didn't know whether it was a function of the depth relative the pavilion angle, the table relative the pavilions, or something else

Keeping the source of obstruction (the camera) static, slightly shallower pavilion mains will obstruct for longer as the stone is turned, compared to slightly steeper pavilion mains. This is because obstruction itself is a function of those facets returning light that’s incident from directly and almost-directly faceup - a facet will cease to darken as soon as it’s angled too far from the normal to reflect what’s “directly” or “almost directly” above.

The Camera May Not Lie - But it Tells Different Truths

I have been in the jewelry business since 1970 when I bought my first gemstone for a girlfriend in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Within days I was buying & selling […]

www.pricescope.com

 

[Avatar345]

Keeping the source of obstruction (the camera) static, slightly shallower pavilion mains will obstruct for longer as the stone is turned, compared to slightly steeper pavilion mains. This is because obstruction itself is a function of those facets returning light that’s incident from directly and almost-directly faceup - a facet will cease to darken as soon as it’s angled too far from the normal to reflect what’s “directly” or “almost directly” above.

The Camera May Not Lie - But it Tells Different Truths

I have been in the jewelry business since 1970 when I bought my first gemstone for a girlfriend in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Within days I was buying & selling […]

www.pricescope.com

And by shallower I take it you're referring to the angles then vs the depth yeah? Fascinating how such minute changes in that angle from like 41.2 to 41 to 40.8 can play out in such a clear manner optically.

This forum is definitely the best with all this information floating around btw

 

[Avatar345]

You can use an ASET scope on a mounted or unmounted diamond. Obviously the prongs will be in the way, but you will get the vast majority of the stone. Same deal with an IS scope.

Where you run into problems is trying to use a H&A scope. While the ASET, IS and arrows images all focus on the face up (top) view of the diamond, the hearts actually focuses on a face down (bottom) view of the diamond. Because the stone would be mounted, you won't be able to get a hearts view.

And while I can appreciate the mentality of just enjoying what you have, I think the case is different here. You are at the beginning of the journey. You have a better potential candidate in your price range with multiple advantages. I think now is the exact time you make the change so you don't hopefully have regrets later and consequently not enjoy your diamond as much as you should.

By the way, while the IS image of the first stone you picked is pretty good, it does have those lighter areas under the table. Those should be red. So we know it leaks a little.

Also, I know there are symmetry issues so if you were to see a hearts image this would become more apparent. You can easily see this in the JA video, but I intentionally used the IS image as it's a tad easier. The arrow at the approximate 8 o'clock position is offset so it's closer to 9 than 7. And the arrow at the 9 o'clock position is offset so it sits closer to 8 than 10. This creates visibly larger gaps between 7 and 8 & then also 9 and 10, while creating a small gap between 8 & 9.

Additionally the arrow near the 5 o'clock position is shifted closer towards the 6 o'clock position. And the intersection of all the yellow lines don't align together in the middle of the diamond further indicating some symmetry misalignment.

Hopefully that makes sense. My point isn't to bash your first selection, but to say it wasn't perfect either. Which makes me more willing to gamble on a stone that at least has better proportions, looks more promising in the video & will be more firey and lively because of the proportions.

Ok here's how it's going to play out... JA has determined that since the existing stone has already been set, they'll just go ahead and ship that ring out as was planned/scheduled, but they're also going to send the new stone to their DC store (which is nearby) for my ability to review it. If it looks good, then I'll go ahead and commence the process of having the stones swapped, and if not, I'll just leave everything as is and go on my merry (or tortured) way.

I think the way I'm going to handle it is to simply not even open the package the ring comes in, bring it to the review along with an Idealscope, and judge the diamond first. If it looks good, then I'll just hand the existing ring back completely unopened to kick that process off, and if it looks not-so-good a la that nightmare stone thread, then I'll open the ring up there, examine to make sure it looks good/undamaged (might as well take advantage of that in-store trust increase), and roll from there!

 

[Gussie]

Good plan! As for 2nd guessing yourself, sure you could do it for the rest of your life. In this case, however, I believe it is definitely worth your effort. VS1 vs SI with a knot, plus better cut numbers! I am sure the mounted stone will be lovely but a knot would be a complete no for me whether the stone is eyeclean or not. Good luck!

 

[yssie]

Ok here's how it's going to play out... JA has determined that since the existing stone has already been set, they'll just go ahead and ship that ring out as was planned/scheduled, but they're also going to send the new stone to their DC store (which is nearby) for my ability to review it. If it looks good, then I'll go ahead and commence the process of having the stones swapped, and if not, I'll just leave everything as is and go on my merry (or tortured) way.

I think the way I'm going to handle it is to simply not even open the package the ring comes in, bring it to the review along with an Idealscope, and judge the diamond first. If it looks good, then I'll just hand the existing ring back completely unopened to kick that process off, and if it looks not-so-good a la that nightmare stone thread, then I'll open the ring up there, examine to make sure it looks good/undamaged (might as well take advantage of that in-store trust increase), and roll from there!

Open the package as soon as you receive it. Do NOT wait several days. I also always videotape myself opening.
If the ring is not inside, or is damaged, you’ll want to notify JA immediately, since the ring is technically your property and your responsibility the moment you accept receipt of it.
Sh*t happens during shipment. More frequently these days unfortunately.

 

[Avatar345]

Open the package as soon as you receive it. Do NOT wait several days. I also always videotape myself opening.
If the ring is not inside, or is damaged, you’ll want to notify JA immediately, since the ring is technically your property and your responsibility the moment you accept receipt of it.
Sh*t happens during shipment. More frequently these days unfortunately.

Wait you don't think the risk of opening it early and then the doubt on all sides if something actually indeed ends up being wrong outweighs the few-day delay of opening it in front of employees? I trust that the packaging is such that it'll be obvious to everybody that it in fact was never opened before, in my mind taking the recrimination factor down to zero were anything actually to be amiss.

With as many moving parts as I already have in flight, I'm trying to reduce instances where anyone has occasion to question anything, on both sides! But if you think there's a clear reason why expediency in opening the package might be warranted, for sure I want to know

 

[yssie]

Wait you don't think the risk of opening it early and then the doubt on all sides if something actually indeed ends up being wrong outweighs the few-day delay of opening it in front of employees? I trust that the packaging is such that it'll be obvious to everybody that it in fact was never opened before, in my mind taking the recrimination factor down to zero were anything actually to be amiss.

No.

If there is a problem it is always better to alert the vendor as soon as possible - ideally within minutes of receipt.

If damage or loss occurred during shipment, the longer you wait the harder it will be for anyone - vendor or carrier - to trace where it was last intact, what routes were taken, when it exchanged hands, etc.

If the wrong item was sent out to begin with, the longer you wait the more difficult/unlikely it will be that the correct piece is easily found.

 

[Avatar345]

No.

If there is a problem it is always better to alert the vendor as soon as possible - ideally within minutes of receipt.

If damage or loss occurred during shipment, the longer you wait the harder it will be for anyone - vendor or carrier - to trace where it was last intact, what routes were taken, when it exchanged hands, etc.

If the wrong item was sent out to begin with, the longer you wait the more difficult/unlikely it will be that the correct piece is easily found.

Ok gotcha - you're looking at it from an incorrect item/delivery standpoint moreso than from a damaged goods/culpability standpoint... I can understand that. I just worry that I take on a lot of risk immediately once that ring is loose and out of that sealed box, but I'll have to weigh that against what you're saying.

I had a real rough experience with Home Depot during the pandemic where they *did* in fact send me a bunch of the wrong things in an order, and when I immediately alerted them... well it didn't turn out as you may have hoped. It happened more than once, to the point where I took to going into the store to open deliveries at the return/exchange desk. (things seem back to normal now w/their orders)

I don't think something as specific as custom created items would experience that level of doubt, but I do feel that people > video footage. Plus I read that other thread on here recently with the whole chipped/damaged diamond saga... if this knot *were* to be an imminent risk, that's all I need is for that 0.01% odds of something going wrong happening during a 30-day window

As I write this... yeah I'm definitely going to do it my way lol, but I do appreciate where you're coming from!

 

[elizat]

I'm not quite sure I understand.

So you're completed ring is done. You're having a second stone shipped out.

You plan on looking at the second stone that is not set and if you like it you're just going to return the completed ring without even looking at it?

I understand that on paper you like the other one better but wouldn't it make sense to look at both of them and make a choice?

Why even go through this process if you are just going to return the first ring?

 

[Avatar345]

I'm not quite sure I understand.

So you're completed ring is done. You're having a second stone shipped out.

You plan on looking at the second stone that is not set and if you like it you're just going to return the completed ring without even looking at it?

I understand that on paper you like the other one better but wouldn't it make sense to look at both of them and make a choice?

Why even go through this process if you are just going to return the first ring?

That's sort of a good synopsis... my ideal would be if they could just send me a scope image of the second stone and I could make my determination right now in advance ahead of any of the shipping or anything else. They can't do that though unfortunately. I could have the second stone swapped out and set into the ring (which as you say has otherwise already been completed), but then it adds a potential reversion step if I *don't* like that stone. It was their suggestion to go ahead and send out the completed ring (next week after QC is completed) along with that other stone.

I'm ok not looking at the ring in advance of that because the unknowns are all to the downside there - I've already seen that stone in person and indeed, I expect it to look good. But if I like this stone more than that stone? Well... I trust I'd like the finished product more as well, irrespective of how much I do or don't like the present ring.

Anyway that's a window into the thinking

 

[ringo865]

How about you open the ring and make sure it is the correct setting (size...), then take the ring to the other JA to look at the new stone. If you like the new stone better, you hand the ring to them and say “exchange this stone for that stone into this setting“. Hopefully, they can do it right then and there and you will be on your merry (or tortured) way with ring in hand and return being refunded.

 

[elizat]

Myself, I'd look at both. I'd look at both together in store lighting, natural lighting, unflattering lighting. All of it and then decide, based upon all your thoughts. I think that makes the most sense, rather than if you like the new stone, not even looking at the completed product to compare. But, YMMV!

I would expect you have forms and the like to fill out for the other stone, so you may have to open the box. I don't think there is any harm in comparing the stones to make sure you are picking what you like the best. No downside.

 

[Avatar345]

How about you open the ring and make sure it is the correct setting (size...), then take the ring to the other JA to look at the new stone. If you like the new stone better, you hand the ring to them and say “exchange this stone for that stone into this setting“. Hopefully, they can do it right then and there and you will be on your merry (or tortured) way with ring in hand and return being refunded.

Within the constraints of what's possible, that's sort of what I'll be doing...

The thing is that there's no actual jeweler or anything on hand there; there's a gemologist, such as it were, but any changes to the ring have to go via NYC anyway, even if I have the other stone there, the ring there, etc. Unless it's the scenario where I simply keep the existing ring (which itself is going to be coming down from New York), everything has to be shipped back up and handled up there. The fact that I live near the only (open) James Allen retail storefront in the country is just a benefit that allows for this sort of logistical minutiae to take place.

It's definitely a reminder of the benefits of a) physical jewelers/store fronts and the role they absolutely still serve, and b) in the online world, the benefits of a Whiteflash or similar where the primary stones being sold are all in-house/on-hand and can all be assessed in advance.

I'm sort of pushing the bounds of what's typical/possible in a normal online situation, but I've found I'm absolutely in that camp that needs physical interaction (or at least more complete metrics) to make that choice

 

[Avatar345]

Myself, I'd look at both. I'd look at both together in store lighting, natural lighting, unflattering lighting. All of it and then decide, based upon all your thoughts. I think that makes the most sense, rather than if you like the new stone, not even looking at the completed product to compare. But, YMMV!

I would expect you have forms and the like to fill out for the other stone, so you may have to open the box. I don't think there is any harm in comparing the stones to make sure you are picking what you like the best. No downside.

Yeah, that's fair. It was frustrating last time in that we were never able to get the stones into natural lighting - the sun was right there, but it wasn't entering the store and they couldn't let me step outside with them (which... I do understand). I brought my own 365nm UV flashlight to gauge the fluorescence of the stones... And they didn't have an IdealScope, etc.

This time I'm coming with everything

 

[Lula]

Can you ask JA to ship both the finished ring and the loose stone to the JA store?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I would NOT want them to ship the current ring. I'd stop that order and have them switch out the stones. I'd 100 times rather have the I VS1. Eyeclean, mindclean, nicer cut. Easy choice. (I don't even need the scope image with those numbers and seeing the stone video.)

 

[Avatar345]

I would NOT want them to ship the current ring. I'd stop that order and have them switch out the stones. I'd 100 times rather have the I VS1. Eyeclean, mindclean, nicer cut. Easy choice. (I don't even need the scope image with those numbers and seeing the stone video.)

Fair enough, but I need that scope image - it'll eat me up forever otherwise

In any event it's all in motion at this point; the ring has shipped and so has the stone, so whatever the case it'll all be resolved soon enough. And we can't ascribe 'nicer cut' to it until we see what the actual light performance is - could be a case of "nice specs, bad cut!"

Ultimately I'll try and take a pic of the scope once I have it all in front of me and report back with my findings.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Sorry I wasn't looking at the days these were posted, so of course it's too late to stop anything! I don't think those particular numbers along with a better actual image could possibly mean a worse ASET than the first one, but I can't blame you for wanting to see it! I just know I'd rather have it over the first stone, if those two are the only choices! I am glad you happened to see the extra diamond to have a choice!