Rear-facing . . . for how long?

[Munchkin]

LovesVintage - Thank you for the perspective. 99.99% of the time that a mom asks me about rear facing recommendations, she's trying to get me to agree that her child is tall enough/weighs enough to turn. I personally launch into my spiel with that in mind; now I'll take more time to make sure a parent isn't REALLY seeking guidance on extended rear facing. (I wish more would! )

At least 3 times a day, a parent tries to explain to me that their child's legs were bent, so they turned them forward. I explain the whole spinal strength thing, but I'm confident it falls on deaf ears. Here in CT, the law is still 20lbs and 1 year, so all I can do is educate. A parent even recently brought their toddler's seat to a fire house for installation and the tech advocated for forward install to reduce "fire hazard" in an accident!

As far as pedi websites go, they are often very low on the list of things to be adjusted around an office! Don't put too much stock in them, especially if state law is 20lbs/1 yr. Heck, my practice of 20,000 patients doesn't even have a website!

I've actually begun addressing the AAP recs at the 6 month visit so parents have enough lead time to research appropriate RF seats.

I truly think the seat technology has been a major hold-up regarding law changes. Even when DS was born in February 2011, baby buckets went to 22lbs and laws and recs were to rear face until 1 year and 20lbs. Since his birth, there has been a dramatic change and I think we are waiting for car seat technology to catch up. I don't anticipate a law change until families have multiple options at numerous price points. Approximately 30% of my patients have state insurance and even many of my privately insured families can not afford to buy new seats when they have legally approved hand-me-downs from a prior child.

In our home, DS is a 22lb, 21 month old, rear facing child. Even though he is a nightmare on long car trips, I truly try to practice what I preach. If I tell other moms their child is safest rear facing, how could I sleep at night allowing mine to turn because he's a crank pot?

In truth, however, so much of this data is new. Parents of newborns who have a 3 year old at home are consistently baffled at the notion of rear facing until age 2! There needs to be lots of education and an adjustment to technology before we can change laws.

I can't lie, though. Even today DH and I were discussing how much easier DS will be and how nice it will be to move the passenger seat back in our cars once he's turned!

 

[Kunzite]

I truly think the seat technology has been a major hold-up regarding law changes. Even when DS was born in February 2011, baby buckets went to 22lbs and laws and recs were to rear face until 1 year and 20lbs. Since his birth, there has been a dramatic change and I think we are waiting for car seat technology to catch up. I don't anticipate a law change until families have multiple options at numerous price points. Approximately 30% of my patients have state insurance and even many of my privately insured families can not afford to buy new seats when they have legally approved hand-me-downs from a prior child.

Can you explain this point more? I'm truly confused about what you mean with car seat technology catching up. I'm also confused why price would prevent RF as its the same seat as FF. Not trying to argue, I honestly don't understand.

 

[Logan Sapphire]

I truly think the seat technology has been a major hold-up regarding law changes. Even when DS was born in February 2011, baby buckets went to 22lbs and laws and recs were to rear face until 1 year and 20lbs. Since his birth, there has been a dramatic change and I think we are waiting for car seat technology to catch up. I don't anticipate a law change until families have multiple options at numerous price points. Approximately 30% of my patients have state insurance and even many of my privately insured families can not afford to buy new seats when they have legally approved hand-me-downs from a prior child.

Can you explain this point more? I'm truly confused about what you mean with car seat technology catching up. I'm also confused why price would prevent RF as its the same seat as FF. Not trying to argue, I honestly don't understand.

Obviously not Munchkin, but wanted to weigh in. i think price could factor in because many of the seats that allow for extended RFing are pretty pricey. There's a new car seat by Clek called the Foonf (supposed to have been released already but keeps getting pushed back), which allows RFing till 50 lbs, but it's around $400 or $450. The Diono Radian RXT currently has the highest RFing weight available at 45 lbs, but again, those seats are pricey at approximately $340 (of course, you can often find this seat on sale). There's a new seat out by Graco that has a taller shell than the Radian, which is important because kids usually outgrow RFing by height, not weight, and it's reasonably priced under $200. Britax has shorter shells and my son outgrew his roundabout classic around 18 months for RFing, even though he was nowhere closeto the weight limit.

I only have two kids, but have owned a total of 10 car seats (I need two seats for my sister, who's our daycare emergency backup, and my kids have outgrown the Cosco Scenaras she had, which contributes to the ever increasing total). Because my kids are rarely in my sister's car, I'm comfortable with them FFing for the one or two trips a year they ride with her, so we didn't need to buy a more expensive seat to let DS RF with her (they have Graco Nautiluses in her car). I estimate the money we spent on car seats so far could've bought me a decent diamond I can only imagine if car seat laws changed to make people rf longer, many people would have to go out and buy new, more expensive seats.

 

[Kunzite]

LS - I guess I just read that post differently than you. I do realize that extended RF can be a problem due to the cost of seats with higher limits, but it sounds like many of Munchkin's patients are wanting to FF far before the limits of the cheap seats (before a year!). Our spare seat is a $39 Scenera that my 2yo can still RF in. My point was just that most people who are eager to FF early are likely still within the limits of whatever seat they are using.

 

[Munchkin]

My patients' parents aren't seeking to turn FF prior to a year. My state's laws are 20lbs AND a year. (some states are either/or)

What is happening is my patients are 13 months, 23 pounds and parents are front facing because their infant bucket (inherited from on older sibling) goes to 22 pounds, so they wisely moved them to the next, (and due to size limitations, safer) seat.

It was really only in the past 1-2 years that companies in a lower price point offered a RF seat that goes to a higher weight limit, enabling longer RF. My argument it that MANY of my newborn parents are using seats form their last child (2-4) years ago and the seats were deigned with the old 20lbs/1yr mindset and have a RF limit of 22lbs. Likewise the next seat these parents have lined up in the garage may not even be approved for RF because it was designed during a time that FF was perfectly ok after a year of age.

Does that make more sense?

ETA: Kunzite, yes, some of the FF children I see COULD RF per their seats' limits, but I get the "his legs were all bunched up!" argument. More of the children I see, however, have outgrown their buckets and may or may not have another seat that is even approved to RF.

 

[Munchkin]

Kunzite:

I wonder if my comment regarding educating at the 6 month visit was the source of confusion? I added that because I've begun to include that in my "anticipatory guidance" at the 6 months visit in hopes parents do not yet own the next seat. Especially for first time parents, I find that discussing the new recommendations at the six month visit allows for adequate time to research their next seat purchase with an emphasis on buying one that is approved for both directions. I find 6 months to be the ideal time because most parents have the time/hands free to do some research before their child takes off crawling towards electric sockets in the coming months!

ETA: My whole "technology needs to catch up" argument is on the basis that while seats now exist at multiple price points; it is a relatively new notion and many, many parents can not afford to rush out and buy a new seat which can RF until 2 years plus. Once the older seats have moved out of homes (most seats only have a 5 yr safety rating, anyway) there can be a greater expectation that the standard seat purchased will enable RF until at least 2 years. I feel that is when state laws will begin to change to meet current recommendations.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Dreamer, where is his head in relation to the top of the hard shell? The seat is outgrown when he has an inch or less of room from the top of the hard shell.

Hmm.. I will check! I think he has a good amount of clearance still but will check today.

We turned him around He is pretty jammed in, but no complaints. Luckily he is a more complient dude than his brother.

 

[Kunzite]

Thanks for clarifying Munchkin! The idea that there are old harness seats that aren't approved to RF never occurred to me! What you said makes much more sense. I applaude you for your effort to educate, I wish more pedis did that. I had a similar situation as LV. At my LO's one year appointment my pedi acted as if we were so unlucky because they had just changed the rec to two years instead of one. He actually said, "if you'd been in a few months ago you could turn him now!!" We were already looking for a new pedi but this was the nail in that coffin. If he wasn't up to date on RF where else was he lacking?

 

[Loves Vintage]

Munchkin - I agree with Kunzite! I think it's great that you bring this up during visits. Our pedi NEVER mentioned car seats. At all. This is not intended as a criticism of him, because I think he is wonderful! It could be that I saw another dr in the practice at the 12 month visit, though I don't think so. I just brought it up myself at a non-routine visit (just a cold!) because she is getting close to 2 years, so I started reading about when to turn her on-line, then I came across some criticism of the Britax seats as not being ideal for "extended" RF'g and started wondering whether I should look into that clek foonf that all the ERF ladies are talking about and that LS mentioned above. Then the pedi (not my usual at the office) told me that 2 years is fine. I tried to talk about the "or until no longer fits" part, but she shut me down after I told her moms on-line are talking about RF'g at 4 years." lol. Then, I figured I'd bring it up here because the moms here are pretty balanced and reasonable. So, I do think 6 mo visit is the ideal time to bring this up because it would give moms a chance to research which seats are good to RF longer.

With all of that said, I am sure I started another car seat thread on here. If I go back, it'll be very funny to see people talking about RF'g potential of seats, and my head was just still in the clouds of newbornness then!

Oh, and I'm in CT too! Hi neighbor!!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Well after all this it does look like Ryder is very close to outgrowing his car seat It is hard to tell exactly how much room there is between the top of his head and the shell because it depends on how he is seated and if he squirms, but it is pretty close to an inch clearance. He is only 17 months, so I doubt we will make it another 7 months+ until we turn him.

This is frustrating because we had really hoped this seat would last until he was FF, because the seats that can RF for his size are so expensive. Any recommendations? LV did people talk about it in your thread? I will need to go look it up.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Well after all this it does look like Ryder is very close to outgrowing his car seat It is hard to tell exactly how much room there is between the top of his head and the shell because it depends on how he is seated and if he squirms, but it is pretty close to an inch clearance. He is only 17 months, so I doubt we will make it another 7 months+ until we turn him.

This is frustrating because we had really hoped this seat would last until he was FF, because the seats that can RF for his size are so expensive. Any recommendations? LV did people talk about it in your thread? I will need to go look it up.

Looking at other threads I think we will get the Diono RadianRT100 (or whatever its name is). Should last forever!

 

[Logan Sapphire]

Well after all this it does look like Ryder is very close to outgrowing his car seat It is hard to tell exactly how much room there is between the top of his head and the shell because it depends on how he is seated and if he squirms, but it is pretty close to an inch clearance. He is only 17 months, so I doubt we will make it another 7 months+ until we turn him.

This is frustrating because we had really hoped this seat would last until he was FF, because the seats that can RF for his size are so expensive. Any recommendations? LV did people talk about it in your thread? I will need to go look it up.

Looking at other threads I think we will get the Diono RadianRT100 (or whatever its name is). Should last forever!

That's what we have- the Radian R100, which is the lowest of the Radian models. You might consider bumping up to the R120 or RXT which have higher RFing limits (they go to 45lbs whereas the R100 goes to 40; all three have the same tall shell length though), though Ryder probably would outgrow it by height before weight.

I'm not surprised he is close to the top in the Roundabout. My son, who is similarly tall, outgrew the same RFing Roundabout 40 (which was initially my daughter's) at 18 months. I wish we'd done more research at the time we bought the Roundabout 55 for him and just gone with the Radian from the start. If you do get it, you might also want to get the angle adjuster, which is a piece of foam that allows the RFing seat to be seated more upright, giving the front seat passenger much more room. I'm attaching a comparison pic I took of my son's seat in my car without and with the AA. The difference is more noticeable in real life, but the pic gives a decent idea of how much more room it allows. In the US, it's $10.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I too wish I had done a little more research But when we bought our Britax in 2010 RF guidlines were different and was the Radian even out then??

 

[Logan Sapphire]

I too wish I had done a little more research But when we bought our Britax in 2010 RF guidlines were different and was the Radian even out then??

It was, under the name Sunshine Kids, not Diono. Oh well- live and learn (and pay for yet another car seat). I find the Radians easier to take kids in and out of, which is priceless, right? No more heaving over the sides and throwing the kids in

 

[Kunzite]

That's what we have- the Radian R100, which is the lowest of the Radian models. You might consider bumping up to the R120 or RXT which have higher RFing limits (they go to 45lbs whereas the R100 goes to 40; all three have the same tall shell length though), though Ryder probably would outgrow it by height before weight.

I'm not surprised he is close to the top in the Roundabout. My son, who is similarly tall, outgrew the same RFing Roundabout 40 (which was initially my daughter's) at 18 months. I wish we'd done more research at the time we bought the Roundabout 55 for him and just gone with the Radian from the start. If you do get it, you might also want to get the angle adjuster, which is a piece of foam that allows the RFing seat to be seated more upright, giving the front seat passenger much more room. I'm attaching a comparison pic I took of my son's seat in my car without and with the AA. The difference is more noticeable in real life, but the pic gives a decent idea of how much more room it allows. In the US, it's $10.

This is great advice, especially the angle adjuster. My DH is dying for the twins to be old enough to get theirs too because it makes such a difference! One thing I want to add about the RXT is that some kids don't get to use the seat for its full life because their shoulders end up hitting the headrest. Just something to think about if you think R will be tall. We have R100s too because my kids are peanuts and will probably not even be 40 pounds when they go to kindergarten

 

[Dreamer_D]

Ahhh Sunshine Kids. I remember those. The name turned me off, so good marketing decision.

Heaving the kids over the side I cannot tell you how many times I have bonked their heads on the door frame trying to heave their huge bodies in there!

 

[Laila619]

Dreamer, where is his head in relation to the top of the hard shell? The seat is outgrown when he has an inch or less of room from the top of the hard shell.

LS, can you explain how to tell? What do you mean by the hard shell? My son definitely has a while to go before he would outgrow his seat by weight, BUT he is pretty tall, so now I'm worried that maybe he will outgrow it by height soon if he hasn't already. I never thought about the height part, I just looked at weight limits for RFing.

 

[Logan Sapphire]

Dreamer, where is his head in relation to the top of the hard shell? The seat is outgrown when he has an inch or less of room from the top of the hard shell.

LS, can you explain how to tell? What do you mean by the hard shell? My son definitely has a while to go before he would outgrow his seat by weight, BUT he is pretty tall, so now I'm worried that maybe he will outgrow it by height soon if he hasn't already. I never thought about the height part, I just looked at weight limits for RFing.

I'm going to defer to someone else to explain it better! The hard shell is the actual plastic or steel portion of the car seat that's underneath the car seat cover. I'm not good with measuring- the only way I knew was that it was VERY obvious DS' head was as tall if not taller than the shell. As I mentioned before, that was only the 3rd time he'd ridden in that car seat b/c it used to be his sister's and the other two times, my husband had driven with him (he doesn't pay attention to such things).

Try this thread: http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=30201.. I know there are other ways as well.

Dreamer- we too bonked the kids' heads a lot! Kunzite is right about the RXT's headwings, so take that into consideration if you have a tall kid. I actually wish we had the headwings for long trips b/c my kids' heads slump for sure when they're sleeping, which does seem to bother them a little, but we don't take that many long trips. Also, the R100 doesn't have cup holders (no big deal- you can buy them). If Ryder is also a huskier guy, they sell a longer crotch buckle that's been a lifesaver for us. My daughter is a healthy-sized gal and the longer buckle has made life a lot easier for us. Two more things I like- the sides expand out a little, which allows them to sit butterfly, and when used FF, the Radian allows the child to use it even when the harness is below the shoulders, as long as the kid's ears don't rise above the shell or 57". The annoying parts- the seat is freaking heavy! 25lbs of steel! Also, the harness has this weird racheting thing going on where you have to do a series of short tugs to tighten, rather than a long smooth pull.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Dreamer, where is his head in relation to the top of the hard shell? The seat is outgrown when he has an inch or less of room from the top of the hard shell.

LS, can you explain how to tell? What do you mean by the hard shell? My son definitely has a while to go before he would outgrow his seat by weight, BUT he is pretty tall, so now I'm worried that maybe he will outgrow it by height soon if he hasn't already. I never thought about the height part, I just looked at weight limits for RFing.

I just looked at the topmost part of the back and noted that Ryder head is only about an inch from the top! But Qtkiki posted on page one a link describing how to check. I also looked up the specs for my seat and noted that you can't use it RF if the kid is over 30" tall or weighs more than 30lbs, and Ryder is both.

I just looked at the link Logan posted and it looks like I was using the incorrect second method to judge his head height. Using the correct method I am sure he still has a little clearance. but R is still over the RF weight and height limit for the seat -- or right AT it -- so we will be getting a new one.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Now I am confused and realise why.

The US user guide for my carseat says RF to 35lbs and with 1inch clearance: http://www.britaxusa.com/uploads/cms/file/Roundabout_P327600_R1.pdf

But the used guide I got with my carseat in Canada has different recommendations, RF to 30lbs OR if the kid is 30" tall: http://www.britax.ca/uploads/products/user-guides/76.pdf

Do you think the carseats are actually different?? Or are these just different national guidelines??

 

[qtiekiki]

Dreamer - do you have the old roundabout or the newer roundabout 55? That could explain the differences in limits.

 

[Logan Sapphire]

Dreamer, I believe Canada does have different national guidelines for what's acceptable.

Look on page 7 of your Canadian manual:

Weight 2.3 – 13.6 kg (5 – 30 lbs).
Only use rear-facing with children :
• who weigh between 2.3 – 13.6 kg (5 – 30 lbs) and
• whose height is between 55.9 – 76.2 cm (22 – 30 inches)
and
• when the top of the child’s head is 2.5 cm (1 inch) or
more below the top of the child seat shell (Fig. A) and
• when the harness straps are located in slots at or below the child’s shoulders (Fig. A)

The one inch rule AND the weight AND the height AND the harness strap placement come into play. It's my understanding that if any one of these requirements are not met, the seat is then outgrown for RF. So if your son is over 30 lbs, it's over, even if the height, harness placement, and head room are fine.

This seat can't be used RFing any more.

 

[amc80]

Thanks for this thread, it made me go read my instruction manual

I need to adjust a few things on B's seat. First is the buckle strap length...it's too short. Second are the shoulder straps. B just had a major growth spurt and they are now too far below his shoulders.

I also just read that the limits on his seat are 28.5" and 22lbs. B (who will be 4 months in a week and a half) is 26" and 17lbs. So I figure he's maybe got another two months.

We will have to get two convertible seats, since he's regularly in two cars. Any recommendations for the seat that has the highest limits while being reasonably priced? As in around $150ish. B is likely going to be a monster child, so high limits are important.

 

[Kunzite]

Thanks for this thread, it made me go read my instruction manual

I need to adjust a few things on B's seat. First is the buckle strap length...it's too short. Second are the shoulder straps. B just had a major growth spurt and they are now too far below his shoulders.

I also just read that the limits on his seat are 28.5" and 22lbs. B (who will be 4 months in a week and a half) is 26" and 17lbs. So I figure he's maybe got another two months.

We will have to get two convertible seats, since he's regularly in two cars. Any recommendations for the seat that has the highest limits while being reasonably priced? As in around $150ish. B is likely going to be a monster child, so high limits are important.

Amazon has Radians for $175 right now which is a great price, http://www.amazon.com/Diono-RadianR100-Convertible-Seat-Stone/dp/B005MQR794/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1354216355&sr=8-2&keywords=Diono+radian

 

[Loves Vintage]

Thanks for this thread, it made me go read my instruction manual

I need to adjust a few things on B's seat. First is the buckle strap length...it's too short. Second are the shoulder straps. B just had a major growth spurt and they are now too far below his shoulders.

I also just read that the limits on his seat are 28.5" and 22lbs. B (who will be 4 months in a week and a half) is 26" and 17lbs. So I figure he's maybe got another two months.

We will have to get two convertible seats, since he's regularly in two cars. Any recommendations for the seat that has the highest limits while being reasonably priced? As in around $150ish. B is likely going to be a monster child, so high limits are important.

Amazon has Radians for $175 right now which is a great price, http://www.amazon.com/Diono-RadianR100-Convertible-Seat-Stone/dp/B005MQR794/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1354216355&sr=8-2&keywords=Diono+radian

Kunzite - Are you using Radians for the twins? No infant seat? Just curious since I think you mentioned you have 3 of the same carseat, but didn't look at the top to check the name. If yes, did you ever run into the problem of having to take them out when they were asleep? I seem to recall this was the main reason for having infant seats in the beginning.

 

[Kunzite]

Thanks for this thread, it made me go read my instruction manual

I need to adjust a few things on B's seat. First is the buckle strap length...it's too short. Second are the shoulder straps. B just had a major growth spurt and they are now too far below his shoulders.

I also just read that the limits on his seat are 28.5" and 22lbs. B (who will be 4 months in a week and a half) is 26" and 17lbs. So I figure he's maybe got another two months.

We will have to get two convertible seats, since he's regularly in two cars. Any recommendations for the seat that has the highest limits while being reasonably priced? As in around $150ish. B is likely going to be a monster child, so high limits are important.

Amazon has Radians for $175 right now which is a great price, http://www.amazon.com/Diono-RadianR100-Convertible-Seat-Stone/dp/B005MQR794/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1354216355&sr=8-2&keywords=Diono+radian

Kunzite - Are you using Radians for the twins? No infant seat? Just curious since I think you mentioned you have 3 of the same carseat, but didn't look at the top to check the name. If yes, did you ever run into the problem of having to take them out when they were asleep? I seem to recall this was the main reason for having infant seats in the beginning.

Nope, no infant seats. DH was in an accident when the twins were three months old and it seemed silly to replace the infant seats at that point! We already had two Radians for O so just bought a third one. Since we can't fit all three kids in the Prius, and thus never take kids in it, we put Sceneras in there. The sad reality is that sleeping kids are never a problem because getting out of the house with all three kids is far more trouble than it's worth and doesn't happen! When it does it's a situation that we would have needed to wake them up anyway like a doctor's appointment.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Dreamer, I believe Canada does have different national guidelines for what's acceptable.

Look on page 7 of your Canadian manual:

Weight 2.3 – 13.6 kg (5 – 30 lbs).
Only use rear-facing with children :
• who weigh between 2.3 – 13.6 kg (5 – 30 lbs) and
• whose height is between 55.9 – 76.2 cm (22 – 30 inches)
and
• when the top of the child’s head is 2.5 cm (1 inch) or
more below the top of the child seat shell (Fig. A) and
• when the harness straps are located in slots at or below the child’s shoulders (Fig. A)

The one inch rule AND the weight AND the height AND the harness strap placement come into play. It's my understanding that if any one of these requirements are not met, the seat is then outgrown for RF. So if your son is over 30 lbs, it's over, even if the height, harness placement, and head room are fine.

This seat can't be used RFing any more.

Yeah, I see that in the Canadian standards. But if the US standards are different for the same seat, then it suggests some wiggle room since there is no objective reason for the Canadian standards to be different -- presuming its the same seat.

Regardless, we will pick up a Radian this week.

 

[amc80]

Also, for users of infant seats - check your manual to see whether the carry handle should be placed in up or down position when kid is in it in the car. I always put mine down, and honestly, not even sure that was correct at this point.

I would love to know the logic behind the up/down thing. Ours says it should be down. But honestly, it's SO much easier to get in and fit with it up. I can't think of any reason why it needs to be down. Any ideas?

 

[Logan Sapphire]

LV, she's adorable! And I love the fabric on your seat!

 

[Loves Vintage]

amc80 - I do not know the reasoning and was genuinely surprised to learn that it varies from seat-to-seat. I used to keep the handle up when putting the seat into the base, then click it down, drive, click it up, then remove. So, you can still use the handle to put kid in and out of car. I will say, I am the slowest of the slow with all carseats in all parking lots. It just takes me so long to get her in and out and clicked in appropriately. And, I haven't even been doing it properly!

LS - Thank you! I am really trying not to post her photo any longer on-line, but I figured since it was for carseat PSA purposes, it would be ok.