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Questions about CVD vs HPHT and type II vs IIa

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Don’t know about you but science and engineering are part of the allure of LGD for me. Am curious whether in addition to the physical properties of LGD there has been much study on human perception. For example, is there categorical perception that draws a sharp line between blue nuance and fancy blue color? Anyway these technical discussions might not seem relevant for people outside the trade but a lot of us actually find them useful so.

Where as yellow diamonds (which are not very rare) are not given a fancy grade until they are stronger than Z, other rare colours are.
From K down blue is graded (as is pink, orange, green and I believe purple) as shown in this graphic.
If that is not correct please someone correct me, because happy to learn.
So Crutches, a J colored blue tinted diamond is graded such by pretending to be colorblind and just using the tone.

1624943014322.png
 

DejaWiz

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Don’t know about you but science and engineering are part of the allure of LGD for me. Am curious whether in addition to the physical properties of LGD there has been much study on human perception. For example, is there categorical perception that draws a sharp line between blue nuance and fancy blue color? Anyway these technical discussions might not seem relevant for people outside the trade but a lot of us actually find them useful so.

That is exactly the allure for me, as well!

When I got it in my head that I wanted to treat my wife with a token of appreciation for our 15th anniversary (and for putting up with me that long), I started researching the nature, no pun intended, of lab diamonds, and down the rabbit hole I went!
 

Rockdiamond

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I guess we all share a healthy curiosity. My concerns are that the quality of information surrounding LG diamonds isn’t nearly what that of Earth Mined Diamonds is. Of course time may help correct this- as the market develops.
But this issue of boron doping seems exactly in the wheelhouse of what I’m talking about.
The GIA presentation clearly says you can add boron to create blue diamonds.
Ok- blue diamonds are incredibly rare in nature, you’d expect them to be desirable in LG diamonds.
If it was relatively easy to perform this “doping”- and it was a reliable method to achieve blue….. where are all the boron blue diamonds?
I’d expect to see them offered- as well as larger stones which are claimed to be non irradiated…..with a lot of proof backing this up.
So my point is more based on looking at the market and what’s there, as opposed to what is theoretically possible it would seem there’s barriers to adding boron to achieve the color in the real world. .
 

John Pollard

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Please excuse my skepticism. I’m extremely well aware of the fancy colored LGDs John….as well as growers and dealers selling FCD lab growns.
You're excused. :cool2:
I’ve seen thousands of carats at this point- and many blues and pinks. If there are non treated ones on the market, they are rare to be sure.
With respect, David, this type of comment is why I drew the initial conclusion about lack of experience (sorry about that) which made you grumpy (at worst) or skeptical (at least). In CVD & HPHT non treated blue can be realized - but non treated pink absolutely cannot. So I hope you can understand how the comment above seems like an odd oversight, given the experience you have.

I still see nothing that indicates the Diamond DNA stones you liked to aren’t irradiated/ are there lab reports on those? Can you please post them?

Already addressed on the last page.
To be clear: Those reports were not related to the Diamond DNA examples. They were simply to help you understand that color origin can be as-grown, without treatment.
The Diamond DNA stones may have had their color boosted after initial growth. I don't know. The point being made is that you can grow blue diamonds - which you didn't know before. I hope it was helpful to learn that. Full stop.

Actually, I can do better than full stop. I'll chase reports for blues at high saturations with a couple of producers who do it on the regular and ask how many carats per month they're doing - at those saturations - versus output they ultimately irradiate. The untreated may be a drop in the bucket, indeed.
 

John Pollard

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If it was relatively easy to perform this “doping”- and it was a reliable method to achieve blue….. where are all the boron blue diamonds?
That's the thing about this sector. It's technology. The principle of accelerating change applies. Expect to see more.
 

Rockdiamond

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I think it’s all so….. exciting. I have no doubt we’re at the beginning of an amazing journey.
Sir John- I am positive your motivation was 100 pure… but
That's all being done. Here are some true-blue lab grown examples from Diamond DNA.


The Diamond DNA stones may have had their color boosted after initial growth. I don't know. The point being made is that you can grow blue diamonds - which you didn't know before. I hope it was helpful to learn that. Full stop.
To this point in the discussion we’ve been shown a single example of an LG blue diamond - from about a month ago.
It has been helpful learning about the possibility.
Can we agree that I t’s far easier to grow rough to cut a one carat round than it is to grow a chunk large enough cut a six carat radiant out of it?
This is extremely relevant to the discussion.
The reality on the ground is that non treated blues are just not there in wide distribution ( yet)
And also that a lot of claims are being made which don’t hold water. I agree with the second statement. The large stones posted are most likely irradiated.
I’m waiting to see some large, boron doped, non post growth treatment blue diamonds.
Till we see them, call me a skeptic that boron doping is practical and in use. Full stop:)
 

John Pollard

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Higher saturations:

https://www.igi.org/reports/verify-your-report?r=LG12311803 Fancy Vivid Blue
https://www.igi.org/reports/verify-your-report?r=LG12261406 Fancy Intense Blue
https://www.igi.org/reports/verify-your-report?r=LG12311816 Fancy Intense Blue
https://www.igi.org/reports/verify-your-report?r=LG12311614 Fancy Dark Blue
https://www.igi.org/reports/verify-your-report?r=LG12311802 Fancy Deep Blue

RE larger weights: My contact doesn't want to risk burning sales prior to JCK. Once they move I can provide examples.

LGD quality is somewhat like natural diamond quality. There's a lot more nasty, hasty, small stuff than untreated large stuff because only the most advanced players are at the front of the curve. There are far more producers jumping into the game with less resources, contaminated chambers, presses converted from industrial, etc.

That said, this is technology. Unlike natural diamonds, the tech started as Commodore 64 and it's going to keep improving. HPHT yield is a relationship between capsule size and anvil power. Belt & cubic ops don't have the same capacity as split-sphere. Recently, two of the major players introduced larger capsules. This is just word of mouth, but it could double - or more - yield capacity. Whether it does today or not, Moore's Law would seem to indicate it will happen sooner than later.
 

Rockdiamond

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Exciting John!
If one grower is able to produce non treated blues, it won’t be long before we see more.
Also cool about increasing capsule size.
Incredibly fast moving targets for the Commodore 64:)
 

DejaWiz

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Exciting John!
If one grower is able to produce non treated blues, it won’t be long before we see more.
Also cool about increasing capsule size.
Incredibly fast moving targets for the Commodore 64:)

Load "As-Grown Blue LGD",8,1
Run

Hey, if it still does the job...
 

DejaWiz

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I'm going to rekindle the discussion with, hopefully, something that may be related to HPHT IIb...by throwing a proverbial monkey wrench into the gears:

How about "Green Nuance" in an HPHT?

Screenshot_20210712-122344.png

Screenshot_20210712-122239.png


Link to diamond:

Link to report:

The report shows "Type II", with no indication of a or b subtype.

Having never seen a Green Nuance before, this is a diamond that I contemplated buying, just to see it. As I mulled it over for a few weeks trying to justify the expenditure, it was sold. Oh well...those are the breaks in life.

Does anyone have any bonafide (or logically plausible) info about what would cause an HPHT "as-grown" diamond to have a green nuance?

I've already received one answer at another source whom states that it may have started out as a BN, exposed to post-growth radiation (possibly as an experiment), then sent off to cutting, polishing, and grading.
Seems like a good answer and one that I am inclined to agree with, but not necessarily the definitive answer.
 

Rockdiamond

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I don’t think you’ll find eagerness to explore these areas. In some ways, some sellers consider ignorance to be bliss
 

molecule

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I believe to some extent as this is a new technology, much of this intellectual property is trade secret rather than published on. Why share trade secrets with many of the newly emerging competitors?
 

oncrutchesrightnow

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I'm going to rekindle the discussion with, hopefully, something that may be related to HPHT IIb...by throwing a proverbial monkey wrench into the gears:

How about "Green Nuance" in an HPHT?

Screenshot_20210712-122344.png

Screenshot_20210712-122239.png


Link to diamond:

Link to report:

The report shows "Type II", with no indication of a or b subtype.

Having never seen a Green Nuance before, this is a diamond that I contemplated buying, just to see it. As I mulled it over for a few weeks trying to justify the expenditure, it was sold. Oh well...those are the breaks in life.

Does anyone have any bonafide (or logically plausible) info about what would cause an HPHT "as-grown" diamond to have a green nuance?

I've already received one answer at another source whom states that it may have started out as a BN, exposed to post-growth radiation (possibly as an experiment), then sent off to cutting, polishing, and grading.
Seems like a good answer and one that I am inclined to agree with, but not necessarily the definitive answer.

So are you basically saying it might have been irradiated post-growth but pre-cut, then the cutter cuts away the artificial radiation stain and cuts for non-uniform, natural looking color? Then IGI would have ‘no evidence of post-growth treatment,” there would be no unnatural lab stain or impossibly-evenly-spread color. You could even leave a bit of seemingly natural green rough.

But couldn’t you do the same with earth mined rough? Is there something special about a trick like this that is done with LGD? IANAE

Maybe you could select for HPHT phosphorescence in addition and get a faux chameleon. We already have blue nuance + phosphorescence, right? Again, IANAE

I’d almost rather buy a cheap clearly irradiated pretty blue-green diamond then bet a bunch of money that any green diamond was not color enhanced.
 

oncrutchesrightnow

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I believe to some extent as this is a new technology, much of this intellectual property is trade secret rather than published on. Why share trade secrets with many of the newly emerging competitors?

Totally agree we can’t expect IP to be available to consumers. So we gotta try to think it over ourselves. A natural green is not on my future purchases list but a chameleon is.
 

DejaWiz

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So are you basically saying it might have been irradiated post-growth but pre-cut, then the cutter cuts away the artificial radiation stain and cuts for non-uniform, natural looking color? Then IGI would have ‘no evidence of post-growth treatment,” there would be no unnatural lab stain or impossibly-evenly-spread color. You could even leave a bit of seemingly natural green rough.

But couldn’t you do the same with earth mined rough? Is there something special about a trick like this that is done with LGD? IANAE

Maybe you could select for HPHT phosphorescence in addition and get a faux chameleon. We already have blue nuance + phosphorescence, right? Again, IANAE

I’d almost rather buy a cheap clearly irradiated pretty blue-green diamond then bet a bunch of money that any green diamond was not color enhanced.



No, I agree with another plausible possibility that was told to me that it may have been a IIb (boron doped during growth) and irradiated post-growth (possibly as an experiment by the grower just to play around, so to speak) which altered the blue nuance to green nuance.
IGI may have been uncertain about it, so they simply report "no indication of post growth treatment", which can be loose interpretation that they are not liable in the case of being mistaken if there was post-growth treatment.
 

DejaWiz

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I believe to some extent as this is a new technology, much of this intellectual property is trade secret rather than published on. Why share trade secrets with many of the newly emerging competitors?

I absolutely agree with your sentiment.
From a consumer standpoint (and putting my engineering brain to work): Speculating about it is half the fun!

With the state of experimentation to produce different colored LGD's seemingly being so early on with a wide open future, it feel like we're merely on the initial lift hill...the roller coaster ride is going to get wild!
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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With the state of experimentation to produce different colored LGD's seemingly being so early on with a wide open future, it feel like we're merely on the initial lift hill...the roller coaster ride is going to get wild!
There has been such a huge amount of research treating natural diamonds that none of this is new
 

DejaWiz

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There has been such a huge amount of research treating natural diamonds that none of this is new

That's a fair statement, since whatever applies to natural will also directly apply to lab grown, in theory.

The only outlier would be what can be tinkered with during the growth process.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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That's a fair statement, since whatever applies to natural will also directly apply to lab grown, in theory.

The only outlier would be what can be tinkered with during the growth process.
Since LGD's are type II - there is not much tinkering to do - and type II natural diamonds were really the main types undergoing study and experimentation for treatments - especially bleaching.
But who knows!
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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There are other articles about this. The then Chairman of GIA was involved in this dumb deceit
 

DejaWiz

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There are other articles about this. The then Chairman of GIA was involved in this dumb deceit

My thoughts take me back to the growth process: would doping with different chemicals/elements, aside from those that would alter things to the point of no longer a diamond being grown, be a worthwhile (albeit an expensive) adventure? More of a rhetorical question, I suppose.
 

John Pollard

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DejaWiz

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Rockdiamond

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Luckily for us, none of our stones were involved in the green diamond debacle Garry mentioned.
Before that for a bunch of years cutters would have to submit the rough to GIA prior to cutting to assure the radiation was naturally occurring. And also leave a portion of the “skin” of the rough stone on the polished diamond.
Why share trade secrets with many of the newly emerging competitors?
Clearly this is an impediment to disclosure.
This, from my perspective, is an (unwelcome) divergence from the way the diamond business was supposed to ( and mostly successfully) worked forever.
Maybe it’s been doped but who knows…..
Looking at the video of the stone @DejaWiz posted……. And not to comment on a stone being sold by a competitor… but general comment…
Slight tints in LGD’s I’ve seen generally detract from the appearance IMO
 

John Pollard

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Slight tints in LGD’s I’ve seen generally detract from the appearance IMO

At undertone/nuance levels I agree. I also suffer from a Pavlovian response though. I know it's a false alarm. I know it's an illogical reaction. I even say it to myself... "Come on John. We know the producer. Salaries. Break rooms. Coffee..."

I can't help it. Green undertone reminds of the dreaded Z word.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Sir John refers to a nation previously named after a founder of De Beers where green tinted diamonds are as common as human abuse.
Good find John - since Nickel is the common melt that HPHT diamonds are grown in (just like we grew salt and copper sulphate crystals in saturated water at school)
 
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