Question For Rhino - Thoughts on this GIA Triple X Steep/Deep

[msdracky]

Hi Rhino,

I''ve received a lot of very good advice from folks on this forum regarding a GIA EX cut steep/deep round brilliant diamond I recently purchased. I need to make a decision on whether to keep it or return it very soon and would very much appreciate your opinion (I''ve enjoyed reading your thoughts on GIA grading and having an open mind when evaluating GIA EX steep/deep stones). In your expert opinion, how do you think these specs look?

1.23 carat
Measurements: 6.85 x 6.88 x 4.28
H color
VS2 Clarity
Cut Grade: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Flourescence: None
Crown Angle: 35.5
Crown Depth: 16.0%
Pavillion Angle: 41.0
Pavillion Depth: 43.0%
Total Depth: 62.3%
Table: 55%
Girdle: Thin to Medium (This is a bruted girdle with a frosted glass look)
Price: $6,850

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

With great respect, Rhino is a vendor of diamonds, and as such it is not fair to place him in a situation to decide about a diamond from an alternative vendor.

This is a question to put to an appraiser that you pay for services, or to the board in general (and take the opinions of consumers, prosumers and appraisers) as well as ''reflections'' from other traders.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/15/2008 5:45:20 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
With great respect, Rhino is a vendor of diamonds, and as such it is not fair to place him in a situation to decide about a diamond from an alternative vendor.

This is a question to put to an appraiser that you pay for services, or to the board in general (and take the opinions of consumers, prosumers and appraisers) as well as ''reflections'' from other traders.

Msdracky, ditto Garry, if you are unsure an independant appraiser who has some experience in judging cut would be the best person to advise by examining the diamond. If you can move quickly on this while you still have a return window, here is a list of appraisers you can use to find one in your area.

https://www.pricescope.com/appr_list.aspx

 

[Ellen]

Date: 12/15/2008 5:45:20 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
With great respect, Rhino is a vendor of diamonds, and as such it is not fair to place him in a situation to decide about a diamond from an alternative vendor.

This is a question to put to an appraiser that you pay for services, or to the board in general (and take the opinions of consumers, prosumers and appraisers) as well as ''reflections'' from other traders.

If you mean an online vendor, I would agree with you. However, reading through the other thread on this stone, and this post, I don''t see that it was bought online. I get the impression it was bought locally? I could be wrong though.

 

[beach]

If you cannot get it checked out before the return period, i would return it. Why chance it? Plenty of others to choose from....

 

[Rhino]

Date: 12/15/2008 5:45:20 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
With great respect, Rhino is a vendor of diamonds, and as such it is not fair to place him in a situation to decide about a diamond from an alternative vendor.

This is a question to put to an appraiser that you pay for services, or to the board in general (and take the opinions of consumers, prosumers and appraisers) as well as ''reflections'' from other traders.

I understand the forum policies about critiquing competitor''s diamonds but am I not allowed to share my opinion on general sets of proportions in diamonds or data found on a GIA Report when the vendor/store is not named? I don''t know who or where this diamond is from. Is there a new law here I am unaware of that I can not answer a question about diamonds posed to me?

Regards,

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/15/2008 10:58:25 AM
Author: Rhino

Date: 12/15/2008 5:45:20 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
With great respect, Rhino is a vendor of diamonds, and as such it is not fair to place him in a situation to decide about a diamond from an alternative vendor.

This is a question to put to an appraiser that you pay for services, or to the board in general (and take the opinions of consumers, prosumers and appraisers) as well as ''reflections'' from other traders.

I understand the forum policies about critiquing competitor''s diamonds but am I not allowed to share my opinion on general sets of proportions in diamonds or data found on a GIA Report when the vendor/store is not named? I don''t know who or where this diamond is from. Is there a new law here I am unaware of that I can not answer a question about diamonds posed to me?

Regards,

Jon, I originally thought it was a diamond from a PS vendor but looking back it appears it isn''t so any advice you have would be much appreciated as always!

 

[msdracky]

Thanks for the link to appraisers in the Boston, MA area. I called a few...one of them sounded pretty good but wanted $150 just to give a verbal evaluation of the stone...said written appraisal would be more. That''s fine...I really just want a professional appraiser to give me his/her thoughts on the light performance of this diamond...fire, scintillation, brilliance etc. but $150 seems kind of steep? Is this the going rate?

 

[msdracky]

Yes, this diamond was bought locally, not online. My intention was not to put anyone in a compromising position here...If it is unethical for you (Rhino) to give an opinion on this diamond I completely understand, but I hope it is determined to be ok because I would value your opinion. Thanks!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/15/2008 2:30:47 PM
Author: msdracky
Thanks for the link to appraisers in the Boston, MA area. I called a few...one of them sounded pretty good but wanted $150 just to give a verbal evaluation of the stone...said written appraisal would be more. That's fine...I really just want a professional appraiser to give me his/her thoughts on the light performance of this diamond...fire, scintillation, brilliance etc. but $150 seems kind of steep? Is this the going rate?

I think an appraisal can cost $100 and up so it would appear to be in the ballpark, but do compare appraisal prices if you have the time - concerning a return window with the diamond. Jeff Averbrook posts here and is a great guy so if he is conveniently located to you and you want to go ahead with the appraisal then he could certainly help you out.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 12/15/2008 2:30:47 PM
Author: msdracky
Thanks for the link to appraisers in the Boston, MA area. I called a few...one of them sounded pretty good but wanted $150 just to give a verbal evaluation of the stone...said written appraisal would be more. That''s fine...I really just want a professional appraiser to give me his/her thoughts on the light performance of this diamond...fire, scintillation, brilliance etc. but $150 seems kind of steep? Is this the going rate?

Certainly within the realm of the going rate...but usually they will provide a written appraisal for this amount.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 12/15/2008 2:30:47 PM
Author: msdracky
Thanks for the link to appraisers in the Boston, MA area. I called a few...one of them sounded pretty good but wanted $150 just to give a verbal evaluation of the stone...said written appraisal would be more. That''s fine...I really just want a professional appraiser to give me his/her thoughts on the light performance of this diamond...fire, scintillation, brilliance etc. but $150 seems kind of steep? Is this the going rate?

I think you will find most appraisers charge net shoppers more than they charge regular off the streeters.
Why
You will probably have 10 times more questions and take a lot more time.
Appraisers often are also involved in recieving and returning diamonds and it might not have been clear that you already have the stone.

But you can shop around - there is more than 1 good appraiser in your area I am sure.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 12/15/2008 1:19:26 AM
Author:msdracky
Hi Rhino,

I''ve received a lot of very good advice from folks on this forum regarding a GIA EX cut steep/deep round brilliant diamond I recently purchased. I need to make a decision on whether to keep it or return it very soon and would very much appreciate your opinion (I''ve enjoyed reading your thoughts on GIA grading and having an open mind when evaluating GIA EX steep/deep stones). In your expert opinion, how do you think these specs look?

1.23 carat
Measurements: 6.85 x 6.88 x 4.28
H color
VS2 Clarity
Cut Grade: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Flourescence: None
Crown Angle: 35.5
Crown Depth: 16.0%
Pavillion Angle: 41.0
Pavillion Depth: 43.0%
Total Depth: 62.3%
Table: 55%
Girdle: Thin to Medium (This is a bruted girdle with a frosted glass look)
Price: $6,850

Greetings msdracky.

Thank you for your question.

On a personal level the 35.5/41.0 w 55 table combo is one I generally avoid because this is a zone where one can safely assume there is going to be notable leakage under the table which can likely show up in a practical examination (primarily in diffuse lighting).

When you take into account GIA''s rounding there are a few possibilities at hand with this diamond that can make or break it.

1. The actual pavilion angles may be 41.0-41.1 with the crown angles possibly being even a little greater than 35.5. If the actual angles were 35.5 - 35.7 with a 41.0 or 41.1 pavilion angle that''d be too much leakage which would disqualify it from our buying and would most likely not qualify for AGS Ideal Light Performance either.

2. If the actual angles of the diamond were 40.9 degrees coupled with 35.3 crown angles there is a chance it''d get a thumbs up *if* the diamond had precise Optical Symmetry (ala precision Hearts & Arrows). These angle combinations, while better than scenario 1 above could be for naught if optical symmetry is off.

Once you hit 41.0 in the pavilion angle it is my experience that the diamond must have precise Optical Symmetry to avoid unwanted or extraneous leakage under the table.

The main question that goes through my mind as I see these possibilities is will this diamond produce leakage under the table that is visible with the human eyes in a practical observation. Of course this can''t be determined unless I saw it personally.

Hope that helps.

Warm regards,

 

[strmrdr]

If you love it and it makes your heart sing after viewing it in a bunch of different lighting keep it, if not return it.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 12/15/2008 4:44:56 PM
Author: strmrdr
If you love it and it makes your heart sing after viewing it in a bunch of different lighting keep it, if not return it.

Yea ... or if possible view it alongside one with angles a little shallower in both diffuse and direct lighting and make your choice.

 

[John P]

I think this may be the diamond we were discussing in this thread?

I think Strm summed things up well. It seems like you want to feel good about the diamond. Based on the data given you did not overpay. The pros are giving the same diagnosis based on the info provided (which is caution, not condemnation). We don''t actually have the diamond though. It''s in your hands and, most importantly, your eyes. If you love it, keep it.

 

[Rhino]

Didn''t catch that other thread. Thanks John. The bruted girdle isn''t an issue in my opinion ... visible leakage would be my primary concern. John hit it on the head ... caution not condemnation. I''m not a gambling man myself when I''m dropping thousands of my dollars so I''d personally want more data than provided.

Peace,

 

[msdracky]

Thanks for taking the time to respond Rhino...great information!

So, given the GIA rounding of measurements...there is a chance this diamond may be even a bigger candidate for light leakage if the actual measurements increase the angle of the pavillion and/or the crown? Has anyone done a study as to whether GIA tends to be off with higher measurements or lower measurements? Is there any rhyme or reason to it? Also, is there a fast and cost effective way for me to obtain ACTUAL angles for the crown & pavillion? It''s starting to feel like this diamond may not be what I was hoping for. It definitely meets my color requirement (H) and budget, and the fact that it is a 3X GIA doesn''t hurt, but what I''m learning is that there is more to the picture than the basic 4 C''s and an Excellent cut grade from GIA.

I''ve viewed the diamond in different lighting situations and to be honest I don''t see much in terms of fire & scintillation...a little bit but not a lot. It does look pretty bright to me but the sparkle effect just isn''t wowing me. That said, I''m a novice at this and perhaps my expectations for light performance are a bit unrealistic.

 

[beach]

You are not impresed with the stone so I think you answered your own question on what you should do...... there is more risk with this type of stone than potential positves. Plenty of other diamonds to choose from. Like I said before, why chance it???

 

[LGK]

Honestly, I''d just return it. It''s not a rare size or color/clarity combo, or a hard to find cut. Especially if it hasn''t "spoken" to you.

 

[Rhino]

Hi msdracky,

Date: 12/15/2008 5:27:58 PM
Author: msdracky
Thanks for taking the time to respond Rhino...great information!

My pleasure and thanks.

So, given the GIA rounding of measurements...there is a chance this diamond may be even a bigger candidate for light leakage if the actual measurements increase the angle of the pavillion and/or the crown?

Yep. This could be confirmed/denied via an exam that gives a critical view to leakage.

Has anyone done a study as to whether GIA tends to be off with higher measurements or lower measurements? Is there any rhyme or reason to it?

Not done. There is a reasoning behind GIA''s rounding though which makes sense. You see ... not every non contact measuring device (like Sarin & OGI) will give the same precise measurements from one scanner to the next. What I measure on my Sarin as having 34.5/40.9 may measure on another person''s Sarin or OGI as having 34.7/41.0. Another appraiser''s Sarin may say 40.8/34.4. GIA is aware of these inconsistencies and is one of the reasons they saw the necessity of not giving exact measurements via the Reports to my knowledge. In my dealings and conversations with appraisers I''ve even had the opportunity to compare 3d models of a diamond we scanned vs a diamond they scanned that gave different measurements on diamonds like this at the cusp. I have a confirmed way of knowing which is correct and which isn''t though.

Also, is there a fast and cost effective way for me to obtain ACTUAL angles for the crown & pavillion? It''s starting to feel like this diamond may not be what I was hoping for. It definitely meets my color requirement (H) and budget, and the fact that it is a 3X GIA doesn''t hurt, but what I''m learning is that there is more to the picture than the basic 4 C''s and an Excellent cut grade from GIA.

Welcome to the world of diamond geekdom.

There are lots of GIA Ex combos some of us will not recommend.

I''ve viewed the diamond in different lighting situations and to be honest I don''t see much in terms of fire & scintillation...a little bit but not a lot.

The amount of/strength of fire and scintillation you will observe will be dependant upon the strength and temperature of the lighting environment you do your observation in.

Weak spot lighting = weak fire/sparkle. Strong spot lighting in a top notch stone and get your sunglasses on.

Even the most fiery and sparkly diamonds can appear not so good *if* the lighting is equally not so good. They will however be the most beautiful diamond in that particular lighting if you were able to draw a comparison. I spend a lot of time doing just this when I''m comparing cut qualities and other features that impact optics/transparency.

It does look pretty bright to me but the sparkle effect just isn''t wowing me. That said, I''m a novice at this and perhaps my expectations for light performance are a bit unrealistic.

That is possible. One of the problems we used to run into was precisely this. When we featured only FireScope and BrillianceScope analysis in our optical cut information folks were expecting to see what the Brilliancescope imagery was showing and when they didn''t expressed a degree of disappointment (which caused me to write some tutorials about the technology to help folks understand the exam). When they were able to compare alongside other diamonds and get a more realisitic expectation it all came into focus for them.

As indicated by the HCA and also much of the advice you have been given by all, you have a diamond there that falls on the cusp. Most layman may not see the differences which is why strm and others advised ... if it sings to you go for it. Most folks walking into their buying decision go in with less than what you have... but now you have been bitten by the PriceScope bug!

 

[msdracky]

Again...great info. Rhino...very thorough and dumbed down so that I, as a novice, can understand
I appreciate all of the fantastic advice I''ve received on this forum...you have all been very helpful...thank you!

So I guess the final question is...if I do decide to return this stone...how easy do you think it will be to find a diamond with better cut/angles at the same color (H) and clarity VS2, while staying at or close to my budget $6800. I guess if I have to sacrifice on one of the C''s it would be clarity, down to an eye-clean SI1 with no major issues such as indented naturals or inclusions that break the surface.

 

[JulieN]

The reason why it's cheap is probably because of the cut. Since no one on PS can confirm that (except for a few Boston appraisers who post on PS periodically) we can't be sure why your stone is so cheap.

Very unlikely you'll find something like H VS2 for that price. Drop it down to SI1 for better odds. What's wrong with an indented natural, btw?

 

[Savvymon]

I've been following this thread and though Id ask the question if you value Rhino's opinion so much why don't you return the stone you purchased (which you sound less than happy with) and go with a sexy stone of Rhino's? Im no expert but this one on his site looks to fit what your looking for if you are truely happy to drop to a SI1?

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/4822/

I'm a huge fan of Good Old Gold and can't wait to get to NY next year and hopefully meet Rhino.

 

[beach]

You can actually find an H VS2 in that price range at blue nile..... If you go that route, you have a 30 day return policy and plenty of time to get it checked out. Here are some:

This was just listed so the GIA cert is not up yet. If you call them they will have it to you very fast. If you like it hold it. It costs nothing to hold and all they need is your name.

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-ideal-cut-h-color-vs2-clarity_LD01473824?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0

This one looks very promising by the angles. However, it has an indented natural and it sounds like you don't want that?

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-ideal-cut-h-color-vs2-clarity_LD01463404?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0


http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-signature-ideal-cut-h-color-vs2-clarity_LD01418129?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0


http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-ideal-cut-h-color-vs1-clarity_LD01411011?__fun_frm=i&filter_id=0

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 12/15/2008 8:19:43 PM
Author: JulieN
The reason why it''s cheap is probably because of the cut. Since no one on PS can confirm that (except for a few Boston appraisers who post on PS periodically) we can''t be sure why your stone is so cheap.

Very unlikely you''ll find something like H VS2 for that price. Drop it down to SI1 for better odds. What''s wrong with an indented natural, btw?

If the price is really that good (I have not researched it) you could always have a few points removed from the pavilion if it fell on the slightly deep side.

You really do need an appraiser to hold you hand - penny wise!!!!

 

[msdracky]

Hi there...I guess I either got a good deal on the price or it was priced lower because of the steep/deep issue...probably the later. Maybe I''m judging indented naturals too harshly? I was told by a jeweler that they are inclusions to avoid because they can fracture/chip easily.

 

[msdracky]

Thanks Beach...I''ll check out those diamonds on Blue Nile.

Garry...removing a few points from the pavillion is a possibility if I keep the stone...a bit scary to think about doing but I understand why it could be beneficial with a steep/deep stone! Thanks for the idea!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 12/15/2008 10:25:49 PM
Author: msdracky
Thanks Beach...I''ll check out those diamonds on Blue Nile.

Garry...removing a few points from the pavillion is a possibility if I keep the stone...a bit scary to think about doing but I understand why it could be beneficial with a steep/deep stone! Thanks for the idea!

There are vendors here who will provide information on diamonds. Several will also call in virtual diamonds and take ideal-scope photo''s and scan them for you for shipping and handling fees, or have stones shipped to appraisers for independant advice.

I doubt BN will offer you those services.

Again if you are going to recut this stone, use an appraiser to supervise the job - they can then sign off an appraisal noting the recut and save you the cost of recertification etc. Experts save money. Dont get burned by saving pennies

 

[Ellen]

Date: 12/15/2008 10:25:49 PM
Author: msdracky
Thanks Beach...I'll check out those diamonds on Blue Nile.

Garry...removing a few points from the pavillion is a possibility if I keep the stone...a bit scary to think about doing but I understand why it could be beneficial with a steep/deep stone! Thanks for the idea!

I would recommend just getting a different stone, there are plenty you wouldn't have to mess with. You won't get quite that carat weight, but a smaller well cut stone will outshine a larger so so cut any day. Cut is key.


I'll throw a couple more in the mix you have aleady been offered. And of course all SI1's need to be inspected for eyecleanliness, just don't go by the plots/pics.

This would get a 2% PS dicount of the price.

http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-1204628.htm#


This would get a 5% PS discount off price.

http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-1445150.htm#


This one is at Winfield's, not sure about a discount (you could ask), it's listed at 7240.00

=539&src=loupe:2o8h065d]http://www.craftedbyinfinity.com/index.php?pid=63&lang=eng&sid[]=539&src=loupe