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Need Help Please on Round Brilliant Diamond With Bruted Girdle

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msdracky

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
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I would greatly appreciate any input on a GIA graded diamond I just purchased for an engagement ring. I did some research but still feel a bit uneasy about the stone. I''m just wondering if the Crown and Pavillion Angles as well as the overall depth are a bit too high to give maximum fire and sparkle? Also, it has a bruted/natural girdle...my understanding is that bruted girdles were common on diamonds cut 5 to 10 years ago? This diamond was graded in July 2008 but perhaps it is an older stone that has been recirculated? Is a bruted girdle less desirable and will it negatively/positively effect light performance? Here are the specs:

1.23 carat
Measurements: 6.85 x 6.88 x 4.28
H color
VS2 Clarity
Cut Grade: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Flourescence: None
Crown Angle: 35.5
Crown Depth: 16.0%
Pavillion Angle: 41.0
Pavillion Depth: 43.0%
Total Depth: 62.3%
Table: 55%
Girdle: Thin to Medium (This is a bruted girdle with a frosted glass look)
Price: $6,850

Thanks in advance for any input!

1.gif
 
The stone score a HCA = 3.8, worth buying if the price is right, just not in the ideal light performance.
 
Thanks Stone-Cold11...does a price of $6850 seem reasonable?
Why would a GIA 3X stone grade just average on light performance? Shouldn''t an ideal graded diamond have ideal/excellent light performance?
 
GIA excellent is noted for a large combination of crown and pavilion angles. These includes some combination in the steep/deep range and this range results in light loss.

Looks like about on par with online prices.
 
While they exist, I don''t think bruted girdles were very common even 10 years ago. The last time I saw bruted girdles in quantity was back in the 70''s. Personally I think they''re a negative, you may feel differently.
 
Thanks for the info. That''s very interesting...the person who sold me the diamond told me that bruted diamonds...especially ones that get an excellent polish grade are very rare and he made it seem like a huge positive. He said it takes lots of skill and extra time for a cutter to do the bruting especially if they do a nice job with it. Does it sound like I got a big sales job put on me by this jeweler? I know very little about diamonds especially about bruted girdles. My research suggests that the bruting is at best neutral and at worst not very desirable in todays market. If my wife to be decided to upgrade this diamond down the line, would she have a hard time getting good value for it because of the bruted girdle? Do you think this is a bad investment because of the bruting? Does the bruted girdle have a negative impact on the way light reflects in the diamond or is it just an aesthetics things?
 
Well, your salesperson fed you a line.

There are lots of very good threads on PS about bruted girdles, if you use the search box.

Diamonds are not an investment. If you believe she may want to upgrade, best to buy from a place that has a good upgrade policy.
 
Date: 12/13/2008 12:29:27 AM
Author: JulieN
Well, your salesperson fed you a line.

There are lots of very good threads on PS about bruted girdles, if you use the search box.

Diamonds are not an investment. If you believe she may want to upgrade, best to buy from a place that has a good upgrade policy.
Click to expand...
Word.
 
Date: 12/13/2008 12:42:08 AM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 12/13/2008 12:29:27 AM
Author: JulieN
Well, your salesperson fed you a line.

There are lots of very good threads on PS about bruted girdles, if you use the search box.

Diamonds are not an investment. If you believe she may want to upgrade, best to buy from a place that has a good upgrade policy.
Click to expand...
Word.
Click to expand...
And again.

This page might be useful,

http://diamonds.pricescope.com/girdle.asp
 
So I see that a bruted girdle is not something done very often in modern day cutting....but I''m still confused as to why it is a bad thing? Does a bruted girdle effect light performance or is it just aesthetics and personal choice? I do feel I was fed a line by this guy just to close the sale. Does anyone feel that this is a nice diamond even with the bruted girdle or is the bruted girdle just something to steer clear of in today''s diamond market. Again, I really appreciate all of your input!
 
I would pass on the stone. Plenty of other options out there. It is approaching a steep and deep cut which would negatively affect light performance.
 
Date: 12/13/2008 7:35:15 AM
Author: msdracky
So I see that a bruted girdle is not something done very often in modern day cutting....but I'm still confused as to why it is a bad thing? Does a bruted girdle effect light performance or is it just aesthetics and personal choice? I do feel I was fed a line by this guy just to close the sale. Does anyone feel that this is a nice diamond even with the bruted girdle or is the bruted girdle just something to steer clear of in today's diamond market. Again, I really appreciate all of your input!
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Its not the girdle but the proportions of this diamond, it is what we call a steep deep and it could leak light as a result, but the most important thing is if you love it as you bought it. Are you thinking of returning it?

Also with any diamond regardless unless you have a good upgrade policy from where you bought it, it is usual to only get back 30 - 50% of what you paid for it unfortunately.
 
so the proportions...even though it was graded excellent cut by GIA...could lead to light leakage and effect performance? hmmmm...that doesn''t sound very good to me. I am thinking about returning this diamond because I feel like I was mislead by the person selling it. This is someone who has been in the business for 30+ years...so to be told that a bruted girdle is a special rare thing that took a cutter extra time to do so well...just seems a bit dishonest to me. Do you think for the $6850 I paid I might be able to get a similar sized diamond with better proportions/angles? Thanks again for the info!
 
Date: 12/13/2008 8:02:16 AM
Author: msdracky
so the proportions...even though it was graded excellent cut by GIA...could lead to light leakage and effect performance? hmmmm...that doesn''t sound very good to me. I am thinking about returning this diamond because I feel like I was mislead by the person selling it. This is someone who has been in the business for 30+ years...so to be told that a bruted girdle is a special rare thing that took a cutter extra time to do so well...just seems a bit dishonest to me. Do you think for the $6850 I paid I might be able to get a similar sized diamond with better proportions/angles? Thanks again for the info!
Click to expand...

Online, sure.

WF has 2 stones that looks great.

1.201c I SI1 for 6169 wire transfer.

1.221c I SI1 for 6788 wire transfer.
 
Date: 12/13/2008 8:02:16 AM
Author: msdracky
so the proportions...even though it was graded excellent cut by GIA...could lead to light leakage and effect performance? hmmmm...that doesn''t sound very good to me. I am thinking about returning this diamond because I feel like I was mislead by the person selling it. This is someone who has been in the business for 30+ years...so to be told that a bruted girdle is a special rare thing that took a cutter extra time to do so well...just seems a bit dishonest to me. Do you think for the $6850 I paid I might be able to get a similar sized diamond with better proportions/angles? Thanks again for the info!
Click to expand...
Unfortunately this cut grade can allow for some less desirable combos such as the steep deeps to get an Ex grade. And you can certainly find something with better proportions!
 
ok...any suggestions where I can look online to find a better proportioned diamond...I''m kind of in a bind because I need it all ready to go by Christmas...what are the most reputable places online to find such a diamond? Thanks Again!
 
Thanks...do you think it''s worth the trade off going from an H color stone with "steep/deep" proportions to an I color with better proportions?
 
Date: 12/13/2008 9:19:00 AM
Author: msdracky
Thanks...do you think it's worth the trade off going from an H color stone with 'steep/deep' proportions to an I color with better proportions?
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Most definitely. Cut quality is critical to a diamonds beauty, and an I colour ( GIA or AGS) with good proportions is a much better proposition than a steep deep H.
 
The I stone would be much better than the H stone. Cut will make it appear whiter.
 
Date: 12/13/2008 7:35:15 AM
Author: msdracky

So I see that a bruted girdle is not something done very often in modern day cutting....but I'm still confused as to why it is a bad thing? Does a bruted girdle effect light performance or is it just aesthetics and personal choice?
Click to expand...
On the subject of girdles it's not a bad thing. Some cutters leave the girdle unpolished (bruted) with the intent of improving face-up appearance in lower colors. The notion is that light is reflected back inside by a polished girdle, exaggerating body color when present. This is debated, but it's interesting that the major labs only endorse diamonds with unpolished girdles as master stones.

There is also the school of thought that a bruted or 'frosted' girdle, is romantic. The Eightstar company used to leave its girdles unpolished because "No other substance than diamond has the look of the frosted girdle of diamond. If you polish the diamond it is not possible [for a gemologist] to 'sight identify' the stone as diamond."

So there are differing reasons which will have different value to different people.
 
Hi John,

That''s great info. on bruted girdles...makes me feel a bit more comfortable with that aspect of this diamond. I guess the other big thing I''m trying to determine here is whether the proportions stated above (crown angle of 35.5, crown height of 16.0%, pavillion angle of 41.0, pavillion height of 43.0%, table = 55% & total depth = 62.3%), which some consider to be steep/deep...will have a negative effect on the light performance, fire, brilliance, scintillation, etc. In your expert opinion, at a $6,850 price, is this a nice diamond worth keeping?
 
Can anyone please explain this:

When I plug in all of the proportions of this diamond in HCA using crown & pavillion ANGLES, I get a mix of good & very good for performance with the overall grade being very good.

But when I use crown & performance PERCENTAGES...HCA results are a mix of excellent & very good with a total score in the excellent range??

Why would this be and does this mean this diamond is really on the very edge of being steep/deep? Thanks
 
basically HCA uses angles to tabulate it''s data points. So when you input a % depth, it has to recalculate that to angles first. That requires some approximation. Also, from what I understand, the depth of the GIA reports are also calculated from the average angles, so the more you average a number the less accurate the final output will be.

In using the HCA, there is a warning on the inaccuracy of the prediction when using % depth for crown and pavilion input.
 
a thing to note is that GIA gives the pavilion angles in 0.2 degrees interval, so the stone might have an actual angles between 40.9 to 41.1. with 40.9, the result will be slightly better but with a 41.1, it will drop into the HCA = 4.1 range.
 
Date: 12/13/2008 8:27:42 PM
Author: msdracky
Hi John,

That's great info. on bruted girdles...makes me feel a bit more comfortable with that aspect of this diamond. I guess the other big thing I'm trying to determine here is whether the proportions stated above (crown angle of 35.5, crown height of 16.0%, pavillion angle of 41.0, pavillion height of 43.0%, table = 55% & total depth = 62.3%), which some consider to be steep/deep...will have a negative effect on the light performance, fire, brilliance, scintillation, etc. In your expert opinion, at a $6,850 price, is this a nice diamond worth keeping?
Click to expand...
There is no way to say decisively without more information. Being just slightly over 62%D it faces up like a 1.17. In the PS sift 1.17-1.23ct GIA EX with similar tables run from $5500-8500 (appx) so you're around the middle of the range. You would need to factor differing dealer policies and short or long-term benefits into those numbers of course.

It's better than most commercial cuts for sure, but it's on the threshold of that steep/deep area of GIA EX that others have mentioned (though just slightly so). The AGS cut guidelines predict AGS1 in light performance but it would need to go to AGS to see if that held up. If too many of the pavilion mains are > 41 it might go the other way. In technical terms the somewhat steep crown angle could be resulting in a reduction of overall brightness. I didn't see lower half #s and anyway, there's no way to predict more without more like an ideal-scope image - but that was not provided I am sure.

We are very picky here though. By the basic numbers it is certainly better than average. With that said you're doing the homework now and you need to decide whether pursuing things farther is worth-it to you. I agree with the posters who have talked about investment and upgrade.

Something else I thought of regarding the girdle: I have had more than one person tell me an appraiser or jeweler told them a diamond was bruted or frosted in the last few years when it was actually done by a modern girdling machine using a scaife that put a fine-finish on the diamond. Finely grained, not polished or faceted. Since they had never seen this before they presumed it was a nicely grained bruted girdle. They have simply not seen these new machines being used in some of the upstream manufacture. Since your diamond was graded in 2008 this is a definite possibility.
 
Date: 12/13/2008 8:30:23 AM
Author: Stone-cold11
WF has 2 stones that looks great.


1.201c I SI1 for 6169 wire transfer.


1.221c I SI1 for 6788 wire transfer.
Click to expand...
Nice selections. ACAs are beautifully cut with all the right proportions. Worth it even if you have to drop in color and clarity.
 
Date: 12/13/2008 12:25:45 AM
Author: msdracky
Thanks for the info. That''s very interesting...the person who sold me the diamond told me that bruted diamonds...especially ones that get an excellent polish grade are very rare and he made it seem like a huge positive. He said it takes lots of skill and extra time for a cutter to do the bruting especially if they do a nice job with it. Does it sound like I got a big sales job put on me by this jeweler? I know very little about diamonds especially about bruted girdles. My research suggests that the bruting is at best neutral and at worst not very desirable in todays market. If my wife to be decided to upgrade this diamond down the line, would she have a hard time getting good value for it because of the bruted girdle? Do you think this is a bad investment because of the bruting? Does the bruted girdle have a negative impact on the way light reflects in the diamond or is it just an aesthetics things?
Click to expand...
You had loads of good advice, but for the record and your dopey vendor - ALL round diamonds are bruted.
The decision to facet the girdle comes later.
It was once a laborious and time consuming task, but todayy there are automatic poliching machines that facet the girdle.
 
msdracky,

How long do you have before it''s too late to return this diamond? If you have time, you should get hold of an idealscope. Dave Atlas sells them in the U.S. link

That way you can see if the steep/deep proportions are causing it to leak light, and if so, how much.
 
I don''t have much time to return it...about 1 week...just enough to get an idealscope to check out the possible light leakage...good suggestion, thanks!
 
Date: 12/13/2008 11:07:39 PM
Author: msdracky
I don''t have much time to return it...about 1 week...just enough to get an idealscope to check out the possible light leakage...good suggestion, thanks!
Click to expand...
Honestly, I wouldn''t wait. I second getting an IS if you are going to continue buying from B&M''s, or if you really really like this stone and are looking for reasons to keep it. But that doesn''t sound like it from your O.P.

Are you comfortable with PS''ers helping you to buy online? Personally I would find the BS you were fed enough reason to return, I don''t like rewarding those who are dishonest to customers.

Try looking at:
Whiteflash
Good Old Gold
Cut By Infinity / WinkJones
 
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