Question for leonid, vendors, experts and anyone who wants to answer :} procedure question

[strmrdr]

There are several patterns that Iv noticed in my studies of various diamonds from the vendors here.
For example and Im not looking for an answer here on this thread to it:
One vendor’s diamonds almost always have amazingly tight dimensions on the pavilion but somewhat looser crown dimensions compared to other vendor’s diamonds.
Where another’s top diamonds usually have slightly tighter crowns and somewhat looser pavilions.
So the question Id have is why that is and what affect it has on the finished diamond.
The affect question came up here:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/question-about-pav-angles-is-it-better-to-find-a-stone-with-all-8.15211/
So I know im not alone in wondering.


Now the problem that is the question of this thread:
Even though all the vendors have been great about answering private questions (THANK YOU) I feel bad about taking their time when:
1> im not in the market at this time.
2> Others would likely be interested in the answers.
3> It likely takes less time to answer on the board.
On the other side of the coin understandable vendor’s have an aversion to saying bad things about another vendors diamonds on the board and might hold back or a big argument breaks out which has happened in the past.

I really would like an answer to some of these questions and feel it would be informative for others to see those answers but im not sure how best to proceed on getting those answers.
Advice? Opinions?

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Looking at our own production, I can say the following:

We try to go for the tightest possible dimensions, but you will see that there is slightly more variation in the pavilion angles than in the crown angles.

Two reasons:

First, with the pavilion being the main reflector of light, it is of utmost importance to be correct there.

Second, while cutting, it is easier to get a correct angle on a pavilion than on a crown.

I hope this answers your question from our side.

Live long,

Paul

 

[oldminer]

I think the question may elicit some responses from vendors, but it is not too likely that anyone selling a less than "best cut" is likely to want to explain it. Everybody sells the finest cuts, don't they?

A tiny bit of loosenes in cut quality results in a little more retained weight and a slight advantage for buyers who can't quite get a "little bit bigger" off their mind when they put all the facts together and make a decision to buy.

It makes some sense to be willing to compromise on cut a very small amount as your eyes may simply not detect the difference at the very top of cut and light return anyway. Think about it. Can you appreciate the difference from D to E color when the stone is on someone's finger? Will anyone unaware of the color grade know an E is not a D color? The same thing applies to clarity. Why can't it alos apply to slight nuances of cutting, too?

Besides the common sense argument above, there is the technical argument that we have not or cannot define "beauty" for everyone. We can zone in on it, but will we really define it? Do we really want to define it so well that people choose it blindly and never even look at other, somewhat less costly options? It would be somewhat the eqivalent of removing free choice from the purchase. I find that an undesirable side effect of getting too close to a single definition of what is most pleasing and best. It will be extremely arbitrary and something that ought to be thought through for the consequences before we just go on with the science of making such a universal definition.

I support the fine cutting efforts many vendors promote on Pricescope. Retail customers don't always choose the defined best anyway. We see many very happy purchasers of H-SI1 diamonds with very good, but not superb cutting. This is the free market and financial budgets combining to make smart purchase choices. As much as I want to perfect the business, I always keep this persepctive in my mind.

 

[Rhino]

Very good response Dave. I may have a personal opinion of what I like best but what I like best may not be what someone else likes best. When we give presentations in our store I am careful to point out to our clients (when demonstrating differences in cut qualities) that although I limit my personal spending to certain cut qualities we have access to any cut quality they'd want. I also let them know their potential savings and let them decide for themselves if it is really the most important factor for them. It is for me. I'd personally rather own a .85ct optical powerhouse with the spread of some 1ct diamonds than a 1ct commonly cut diamond with mediocre optics. I know there are some people who'd rather say they have a 1ct diamond and I understand where they're coming from. The most important thing for any vendor to do is to listen to the needs of their client and help them accordingly. Don't try to push something on them that they've clearly indicated they do not want. The best advice is to always view all your options and *then* decide what's important to you.

 

[strmrdr]

Thanks for the answers guys they are great from a technical stand point of the question within the question but dont help a lot with my problem.

Do I continue to bug the vendors/experts in private leaving everyone else out?
Forget about learning more about diamonds and move on to other things?
Find someone else to bug with the questions?
Just ask on the board and if someone gets bent out of shape ooh well?
Tow the party line and just say "oh isnt it pretty"?
stop being so picky about diamonds?

Some of those are a whole lot more likely to happen than others :}

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Sarin reads a pavilion more accurately than a crown, simply because there is more length in the pavilion - so this might account for some crown angle variance also.

 

[valeria101]

Interesting.... what Q remianed unaswered StrMdr?

 

[WinkHPD]

As one of the vendors of Paul's stones I can tell you that they are consistant in the beauty and the quality of the H&A patterns with minimal light leakage on the Firescope.

EightStars are the only stones that I have seen that are consistantly perfect in the Firescope and their external angles will vary to the point that is necessary to the creation of the perfect EightStar pattern, which is the measure of the intenal optical symmetry.

Not being a cutter or a research gemologist, I can not tell you the why's of why and how the angles are changed from stone to stone, but I can tell you this from more than thirty years in the trade, the top cut diamonds that we see today are much more beautiful than what was available in 1970 when I started. Then there was the occassional exceptional stone and no one was quite sure why one ideal cut stone might look better than another. Now there are whole lines of exceptional stones, many of them represented here, that are consistent in their beauty.

Win

 

[WinkHPD]

Started my answer to your query last night and just now got to finish, I see you have asked if you should continue to "bug" dealers in private or ask in public.

I vote for ask in public so that others who are interested can also learn from your questions. If people get too busy to answer they will not, but there will nearly always be someone who has the time and the inclination to respond. Enjoy your quest.

Wink

 

[strmrdr]

----------------
On 5/3/2004 9:13:36 AM Wink wrote:

Started my answer to your query last night and just now got to finish, I see you have asked if you should continue to 'bug' dealers in private or ask in public.


I vote for ask in public so that others who are interested can also learn from your questions. If people get too busy to answer they will not, but there will nearly always be someone who has the time and the inclination to respond. Enjoy your quest.


Wink----------------

Thanks wink :}
You may not have been around for some of the fireworks so I will fill you in on some background.
Some of the questions its hard to ask without specific examples and in the past it has led to problems if one vendor sees another as saying something bad about their diamond even if its a truthfull answer.
Barry ended up getting himself banned over one such incident.
I dont want to cause problems for anyone so it puts me and others in a bad spot.
On the other hand Id like to be able to get some answers to the questions and be able to share the without making myself a pest to the vendors/experts in private on the other I dont want to cause problems.
Does that change your answer?


Val: Wink addressed the real question in this thread. I dunno maybe I wasnt that clear in the first post.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 5/3/2004 9:36:29 AM strmrdr wrote:




Some of the questions its hard to ask without specific examples and in the past it has led to problems if one vendor sees another as saying something bad about their diamond even if its a truthfull answer.
Barry ended up getting himself banned over one such incident.

----------------

Let's be clear on this. Barry didn't get banned because he offered an unflattering opinion on another vendor's stone.

Barry got banned because he was unable to control himself and keep the discussion on a civil, mature level. Instead, he sunk to the lowest common denominator and resorted to name-calling and ranting. He was combative and confrontational and did not respect the forum guidelines.

 

[strmrdr]

true enough al but what set him off was a disagreement about another vendors diamond that he got into with the owner of the diamond.
He wasnt the only one that disagreed with the owner on it he just didnt drop it like the others did and it went down hill from there.
Thats how I remember it anyway.

Notice I didnt say he got banned for just saying something bad about another vendors diamond. I said that he GOT HIMSELF banned over it

edit to add> that doesnt mean that I dont feel bad about it because it was my position he was defending when it happened.

 

[pricescope]

Strmrdr, in the thread you referred above you wrote:

----------------
The first thing I look for in a diamond is how tight the demensions and angles are on the sarin while it doesnt cover enough facets to make a decision on if the diamond is cut right it is an indicator that the rest may be equaly well cut.
Comparing the "tightness" on the sarin to the h&a and scope images is an interesting exercise.
If one facet is off it will usualy show in the images and it is fun to track it down and compare the measurements to the images.
----------------

It is not necessary to have all the facets angles exactly the same. Sometimes a cutter can compensate one with another. E.g you can check an overage angle between opposite facets to see how well they compensate each other. Idalscope or H&A scope would show you resulting optical symmetry. You can have perfect IS and H&A image even if there are some deviations of the facets' angles.

Another reason for deviation is if girdle and table are slightly non-parallel. Sarin will show difference in facet angles but it won’t affect optical performance very much.

You can find out more on the symmetry here: On grading the symmetry of round brilliant cut diamonds

 

[Rhino]

----------------
On 5/3/2004 12:21:02 PM leonid wrote:





Strmrdr, in the thread you referred above you wrote:

----------------
The first thing I look for in a diamond is how tight the demensions and angles are on the sarin while it doesnt cover enough facets to make a decision on if the diamond is cut right it is an indicator that the rest may be equaly well cut.
Comparing the 'tightness' on the sarin to the h&a and scope images is an interesting exercise.
If one facet is off it will usualy show in the images and it is fun to track it down and compare the measurements to the images.
----------------

It is not necessary to have all the facets angles exactly the same. Sometimes a cutter can compensate one with another. E.g you can check an overage angle between opposite facets to see how well they compensate each other. Idalscope or H&A scope would show you resulting optical symmetry. You can have perfect IS and H&A image even if there are some deviations of the facets' angles.

Another reason for deviation is if girdle and table are slightly non-parallel. Sarin will show difference in facet angles but it won’t affect optical performance very much.

You can find out more on the symmetry here: On grading the symmetry of round brilliant cut diamonds
----------------

I'd concur. Every pavilion and crown facet do not have to be the same all the way around to get a perfect H&A pattern. Interestingly there is one company that claims "zero tolerance" on their stones. When I inquired with the manufacturer what they meant by "zero tolerance" they told me that if their diamond has a reported crown angle of say ... 34.5, *zero tolerance* meant that EVERY crown angle was 34.5 (same with pavilion too they claimed). They also claimed that each of their diamonds were cut according to a technology that was developed by a russian rocket scientist (they even used those words!) to maximize the best possible brilliance within round brilliant cut diamonds. I had this particular brand/company send a representative to our store/lab as I HAD TO SEE THIS!!! The salesman was such a nice person but didn't realize the excruciating torture tests I was about to subject their stones to. Sadly not one diamond they showed me lived up to the cliams.

Strmrdr... I answered the question from the other thread which you brought up. Am I missing something? If so point it out and I'll answer to the best of my ability.

Regards,

 

[strmrdr]

Rhino,
I appriciate the technical answers and know most of it alreaddy and actualy had the answer to the technical question before I wrote this thread.

What I cant seem to get accross is that it isnt the diamond question thats in question its just an example.

Im looking for guidence on how to handle questions that might be somewhat delicate that would likely be of interested to everyone that I dont want to bug the vendors in private with too much.

By delicate im meaning that there might be a lot of room for disagreement or that it might be seen as a bad thing by some but that vendor may disagree with them, not that the vendor has BO :}

Id provide another example but then everyone would just talk about the example again :}

 

[niceice]

----------------
On 5/3/2004 12:51:21 AM strmrdr wrote:


Do I continue to bug the vendors/experts in private leaving everyone else out?
Forget about learning more about diamonds and move on to other things?
Find someone else to bug with the questions?
Just ask on the board and if someone gets bent out of shape ooh well?
Tow the party line and just say 'oh isnt it pretty'?
stop being so picky about diamonds?
----------------

First off, the technical part of the series of questions... We personally prefer to see tighter control of the pavilion angle which is the primary reflective surface and allow a reasonable variance in the crown angle... This statement is evident within our inventory on a consistent basis.

On with the rest... Answered in order of the questions as provided above.

Ask your questions here on the open forum so that other people can learn from your questions and the responses because the odds are that many other people will benefit from the answers... Have the same questions floating about in their heads, etc. and this will prevent all of us from having to answer the same questions over and over again in private. We actually refer a lot of our clients to previous threads here on PS when we can remember where the answer to their question was placed. We feel that (1) it provides them with answers to consider from a variety of mediums, and (2) it is a great introduction to PS.

Why would you find somebody else to bug when we're all gathered in one spot?

You can't please everybody all of the time... Ask your questions and if somebody doesn't like it, they don't have to read them, don't have to answer, or if it is particularly annoying to them they can contact Leonid and he can decide whether it is an issue or not.

Is there a "party line" here on PS? If so, we must have missed that meeting because we tend to be a bit outspoken and nobody has told us to behave

Precision is a personal quest, some people are more precise than others which we suppose is why each of the vendors seems to have developed a niche so easily... Some of us cater to the more precise individuals of the world and others to the "oh isn't that pretty" portion of the world and others cater to the "I don't care what it is, but how much is it a month?" group...

Thanks for the post Strmdr, you're always one to make us think.

 

[strmrdr]

hehehe r/t you dont know the real party line?
Its CUT CUT CUT!!
There isnt a party line other than CUT CUT CUT atleast that I subscribe too... but there are wolf packs :}


I did just notice some bad wording on my part in the original question that was no dought leading to some of the confusion.

I was leaning towards just throwing them out here on PS for answers and letting the chips fall where they may but was looking to find out if there was a better way I was overlooking.
I must be getting old cuz in the old days id just have fired the questions off and not cared much what the results were as long as I got my answers.

 

[niceice]

----------------
On 5/3/2004 2:18:23 PM strmrdr wrote:

hehehe r/t you dont know the real party line?
Its CUT CUT CUT!!
There isnt a party line other than CUT CUT CUT atleast that I subscribe too... but there are wolf packs :}----------------

Oh, we don't think of that as a "party line" as much as it is just a way of life for us... Oh boy, we get to throw a party! Everybody meet at our house at 8:00

 

[niceice]

Robin JUST passed out

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 5/3/2004 11:43:56 AM strmrdr wrote:





true enough al but what set him off was a disagreement about another vendors diamond that he got into with the owner of the diamond.
He wasnt the only one that disagreed with the owner on it he just didnt drop it like the others did and it went down hill from there.
Thats how I remember it anyway.

Notice I didnt say he got banned for just saying something bad about another vendors diamond. I said that he GOT HIMSELF banned over it

----------------

Storm, I well remember what set it off....it was a discussion about a WF princess that had an indented natural. Subsequent questions arose regarding the potential lack of integrity/durability of the girdle.

Yes, I did notice you didn't say he got banned for that reason, but the way you made the statement implies that to others who weren't here at the time and don't recall it...hence my clarification.

Let's also be accurate regarding the other vendors who disagreed......your statement above implies that all the other vendors dropped it and that Barry got banned because he was the only one who didn't drop it. That's not true....he got banned because of HOW he was approaching it....because he took a nasty, surly approach that none of the other vendors did. He turned it into a personal attack on Leonid and a few others, and THAT'S what got him banned.

It's also fair to point out that there were several similar incidents with Barry prior to your registration here on PS.....it wasn't the first time this happened (or the second or the third). There were *several* warnings previously to play nicely and debate civilly that Barry willfully ignored leading up to this particular situation.

Lastly, no one's *missing* the point of the post at all. You asked how to handle questions that might be delicate, and several people have replied by saying "post it publicly". What else are you looking to hear?

 

[strmrdr]

r/t Ill check the airlines for flights :} sounds like my kinda party.
Will there be lots of diamonds to play with?????
plllllleeeeeaaassseee????????????

shoot the airlines dont take monopoly money :{ and there isnt enough green bills in my pocket.
Ah well back to work for me......

 

[WinkHPD]

----------------
On 5/3/2004 9:36:29 AM strmrdr wrote:

----------------
On 5/3/2004 9:13:36 AM Wink wrote:

On the other hand Id like to be able to get some answers to the questions and be able to share the without making myself a pest to the vendors/experts in private on the other I dont want to cause problems.
Does that change your answer?
----------------

Not really. I imagine that most of the vendors are just as busy as I am, so I doubt that they want to answer the same question for twenty people if they can discuss it once on open channel. On the other hand, if they need to say something that they feel might cause problems, they can always PM or email you privately and tell you what they want to say.

You are right, I did miss the fireworks, but I think honest answers can be given without being offensive. If a question or answer is out of line, I will trust Leonid to jump in where necessary. In the short time I have been here I have been very impressed with his ability and willingness to do so.

Wink

 

[Rhino]

Hey Wink!




Good to cya round here. I agree. Answers should be able to be given and discussions carried out in an orderly manner. There have been times when people post up photographs, etc. on diamonds looking for comments and no matter how careful some of us try to be in our comments, the criticisms tend to be taken personal at times. I'm not sure if it's coincidence or not but after I had commented on a particular IS image I had noted a decrease in recommendations from certain posters here (they would generally only recommend *one* vendor) and I was careful to say in my post ... DO NOT TAKE THIS PERSONAL ... it's just commentary on the diamond. I do sometimes feel like I'm walking on eggshells here and in some threads I post or participate in either get removed, moved or locked due to a certain *clique* who complain anytime I offer gemological advice or information. Leonid tells me the complaint is "self promotion" so I understand what strmrdr is talking about if he's going to ask questions regarding delicate subjects. There have been many questions on here where I have sat and typed out the answers with graphics to demonstrate and illustrate the point but wound up not even posting them due to the *clique* becuase I knew Leonid would get complaints and I am not one who desires to cause waves. Since the time I know Leonid he has always been a gentleman and has always been fair to me and the last thing I want to do is cause him any headaches. But at the same time I don't think he should cave in to the demands of a select few especially if not forum guidelines are being broken. I understand the nature of your question strmrdr and I guess my advice to any vendor who wants to participate is just be careful with your answer. If your answer seems too intelligent some may take it as "self promotion" and complain to Leonid.

 

[niceice]

We will second Jonathan's feeling that sometimes "we" (the collective group of dealers) are walking on egg shells when trying to answer questions in such a way as to remain as impartial and subjective as possible without being self-promotional... There are many times when we have written something that makes "perfect sense" in our heads at the time we write it, but which reads all wrong on paper and which causes a lot of unnecessary confusion with no intent to do so... That is the time for a PM or a Private Email to us (or whoever the author may be) to say "is that what you meant to say?" but so often the response is an unneccesary attack that can only result in a poor outlook for all involved here on PS.

We weren't privy to the thread involving Barry, but we having nothing bad to say about him so we won't say anything at all

Think about it... Think about it... What did we just say?

 

[fire&ice]

"Select few" "Clique" Who exactly are these people?

I've been here long enough to not see any conspiracy theories. Though, I guess the urban legends will always continue.

 

[niceice]

----------------
On 5/3/2004 5:44:55 PM fire&ice wrote:

'Select few' 'Clique' Who exactly are these people?

I've been here long enough to not see any conspiracy theories. Though, I guess the urban legends will always continue. ----------------

Don't you know that "we're all" really just one person?!?!

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 5/3/2004 6:47:36 PM niceice wrote:

----------------
On 5/3/2004 5:44:55 PM fire&ice wrote:

'Select few' 'Clique' Who exactly are these people?

I've been here long enough to not see any conspiracy theories. Though, I guess the urban legends will always continue. ----------------

Don't you know that 'we're all' really just one person?!?!

----------------

That's what I hear....from my little corner in the woods of VA.....oh wait...GA...OK.

I am who I am....

 

[Rhino]

That's it F&I, I don't know exactly who they are. All I know is when I post information or answer questions or share information that has been blatantly and outright asked of me the thread will be removed, locked, etc. Leonid doens't tell me *who* they are. I just know that Leonid does what they say to keep peace.




R/T I know you know how I feel and what you said is exactly right on. There are often times I wonder if I could have worded something differently and many times I wish I had worded things differently You hit the nail on the head when you said ""we" (the collective group of dealers) are walking on egg shells when trying to answer questions in such a way as to remain as impartial and subjective as possible without being self-promotional... There are many times when we have written something that makes "perfect sense" in our heads at the time we write it, but which reads all wrong on paper and which causes a lot of unnecessary confusion with no intent to do so... "




That's just it. When you or I or anyone with extensive experience/education/street knowledge comment on anything Todd, it is, whether we like it or not "self promotion" and quite frankly I don't think there is anything wrong sharing the smarts or information we have learned in our own personal experience. Can you imagine a vanilla only Pricescope? Leonid ... I think you should tell these people who complain to put a cork in it. One recent instance was the Jubilee thread. There were others in the trade who wanted to participate and answer questions (and I never had a chance to respond to the questions posed to me) but were prevented from doing so becuase of this small clique. If anyone carefully reads that thread there was no pitching involved. Yes I am enthusiastic about the product just as Wink is enthusiastic about the 8*, but being enthusiastic about something and sharing information about it does not make it something that should be censored, locked, etc.




I have seen dealers come on here in short spurts and pitch the consumers on the forum and yes I believe something should be done about that. However if a dealer or whoever comes on here and has good, valid, sound gemological information to share on a certain product/technology and it is information that can benefit the ps community I do not see any reason why they should be censored, locked, etc.

 

[strmrdr]

I agree that there are other issues too and there have been times when i havent asked a question because I figured the vendor couldnt answer without minorly violating the no promotion rule.

For example Id love a full and consise breakdown of the difference between the new line and classic aca's and the advantages/disadvantages of both from Brian.

A detailed comparison from rhino about the differences between a diamond that scores b-scope 1vh 2h and one that scores 3vh and what differences in the demensions/angles cause the difference in b-scope score.

A long post from niceice on their h&a stance with examples and reasons for the stance would be awesome.

Long posts from griffin, Brain Knox, David E. and or the other setting designers on various issues with settings with lots of pictures would be awesome also.

Under the current guidelines we are missing out on all of the above.
It is too much to produce just for one person but might be worth while for them to prepare for everyone here.

On the other hand I feel for leonid because he is doing his best and it is his forum but he does seem to get caught in the middle at times.
The advertising does have to be kept in check or it will flood the board.
What the answer is I dont know.

 

[GlitterGal]

Hi Strmrdr,

The topics you mentioned are all great subjects that many of us would like to read and learn about.

My suggestion to Leonid would be to start a forum section (such as Rocky Talky or Diamond Hangout) where sellers could specifically tout their wares, favorite products or promotions for the month (e.g. Rhino’s Jubilee). Customers would enter this section with the full knowledge that the topic at hand is intended to promote these products and more than likely educate in the process. It could be called something like Vendors’ Vices and would of course, have to be monitored carefully so that the competition does not get out of hand (i.e. vendors doing battle over whose product is better). Perhaps additional rules to this section of the forum would also be applicable in such a case.

Just my $0.02.

Kindest regards always,
Linda