shape
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Quest for a dream sapphire

LeaD

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
26
I launched phase 1 in my search of my dream blue sapphire those last days.
Let me start with a digression. At Christmas, my husband stirred me to a jewellery shop, specialized in diamonds, where we already shopped twice in the past for small pieces, with micro-mini well cut stones. I told him I preferred something different this time, with one bigger stone, and rather colorful. And why not try to leverage on his business travels to several countries across Asia where we live, some of them well-known for their gem mines or cutting & jewellery. Anyway having the opportunity to see gems and compare some of them cannot hurt my education and low-cost air tickets might well be less costly and more pleasant than having one or another gem shipped from an internet shop.

My first travel there, when I started looking at gems, was not a big success. I thought ruby first, but then looked at rubies, spinels, sapphires. And I did spend too much time on just a few stones, rather than see as many as possible to "improve my eyes". We made only a small purchase, not too expensive, which let's say will contribute to our learning curve.

Following this travel, I understood I needed to understand more and have a different approach. My first conclusion was that rubies were not a good deal there, very expensive per carat, hardly none above 1 or worse 2 carats; as the price per carat was very high, the native cuts were usually plain awful, as they only focused on maximizing the weight and not making the most of the stone. Moreover, I realized that I was not so much a fan of most rubies' color, strange as I like both red and pink, but it sort of felt always in between. My dh also told me he preferred blue sapphire to rubies.
The other gems, including sapphire, being less pricy, also had native cuts. However the native cut quality generally increased with the inner quality of the gem, as in better cuts in general for higher quality or bigger gems.

This time, I went there with a defined plan, visit all stalls at the market and gem "mall" to see all sapphires and look at all those between 2 to 4 carats, with a good color preferably well saturated, clean enough (inclusions OK but not if the whole stone looked dirty or blurry), good native cut. No specific requirements regarding shape, except excluding so-called fancy shapes. I had a preference to unheated stone.
I had to make a first selection for my husband to bring him check the better ones during the we.
And last of all, I did not plan to buy this week-end, which I did indeed not, as I'll be in Bangkok next to visit some other places, possibly more expensive with higher-hand sapphires, as well as the gem fair taking place there next week. My dh will go back there in March and later on, so we have and intend to take time, which we were always open about with the vendors.

All stones I selected are unheated, I saw certificates from local gem institutes for all but one - one of the local certification institute seems at least reliable, ie. not prone to be bought. Anyway, if I buy an expensive gem, i'll have another certificate made and will be there.
Anyway I could see inclusions in all, either naked eye or with a loupe, and those should no longer be there, were the stone heated. I'm not too worried about synthetic not being identified by the lab used to deal with local stones and recognizing the mines it come from. I read with interest however the story of the antic synthetic ruby with inclusions inside.
 

LeaD

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
26
After this long intro, let's move to the selection.
You'll see that almost none of the sapphires fit into my original description, because I did not see a single one between 2 to 4 carats that had a little something interesting. Two were very poorly cut with chips at the girdle level, a few were almost transparent and one was half black. One thing I start to learn in the gem quest is to be really open-minded :wink2:
I'd be interested in getting your feedbacks on several sapphires, as well as your best estimate of a price range per carat of the stone and/or a ranking of the stones according to which should be the priciest to the cheapest. My mind is not totally made up and I might well not buy any of those.
The comments and description are mine and you're free to disagree. No flash used for pictures. I tried my best, but as you all know, it's a tough enterprise. Pictures might include some other sapphires which I eliminated. Toughest is definitely to have a good appreciation of the tone and saturation of the stone.
Thanks a lot for your feedbacks!
 

LeaD

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
26
N1 - a small one 1.54 carat round shape - first choice blue (lab's wording) / royal blue - some color zoning obvious from below but not from top - some inclusions - strong saturation (according to my eyes)
N1 sapphire on the right
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From below
N1 sapphire is on the left, zoning was more visible in real
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Hand shot
N1 sapphire is obviously the small on top
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LeaD

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
26
N2 - a huge 6.98 carats round cushion shape mixed cut - royal blue with medium-low (?) saturation and some grey in it - quite a few small inclusions - a window appeared in some cases, which I've tried to show below.
This stone did not belong to the vendor but to a friend who had just received it. The price was undeniably very attractive - my guess is that they felt they might have a fair chance of selling it to us and had rather have the cash now than sit on the stone for months or years. Some stones had been in stock for more than 3 or 5 years, as seen from the date on the certificate. Obviously there are not many tourists either having the cash with them (visa and mastercard are still not very developed) or even willing/able to spend a few thousands of dollars on one gem.
For this specific stone, I tried to discuss the possibility to have it recut, to have the pavilion made straighter instead of very round like it currently is. I was told not to try it as it might change the color of the stone and having it look lighter. The window might indeed close up, as seen on the last pic with aluminum wrap around it.
Any comments and insides on this specific topic highly welcome?
I have a growing feeling that low-saturated stones will always have a window somewhere under some angles. And I do not know whether to just systematically exclude them or if something might be done for it.

First shot - next to sapphire n1
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Hand shot - always close to sapphire n1 and showing some of the window, as well as some inclusions
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Next shot - always next to sapphire n1 on some of the ring fixture they have in every shop
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Last one - wrapping in aluminum to close up the window
dsc_0163.jpg
 

LeaD

Rough_Rock
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Feb 5, 2014
Messages
26
N3

N3 - a big 5.7 carats round cushion shape mixed cut - royal blue with medium saturation, though it had some green on one side (less visible in real than on the picture) and some grey as well - very nice brilliance
The price for this one was much much higher than the others (to put it clearly 2.5 to 4 times as much per carat as any other sapphire between 4.5 to 7 I saw); I am not sure it's really worth that much more compared to the others. Add to that a decrease of the price by 20% between my first and second visit with my dh, without my starting negotiating. Plus some sales argument we did not like at all - most of the other vendors, especially those with nice stones, did not behave like that. It might be one of the nicest sapphire we saw, but we're not really confident that we will not be cheated on the price.

Close-up
dsc_0073.jpg

Close up in the dark (not very friendly for the color but given the price I wanted to see if some blue remained in low light. Look at the labello stick up for comparison, as it looks rather more washed out on my picture.
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Second row of loose stone, first blue after 3 white and a cabochon.

Last, an overview of the whole range of loose sapphires - none other was remotely interesting - the color of this one makes it pop quite clearly
dsc_0074.jpg
 

LeaD

Rough_Rock
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Feb 5, 2014
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26
N4

N4 - a rather big 4.5 carats round cushion shape mixed cut - royal blue with low-medium (?) saturation and some grey in it - few inclusions - brilliance on the low side - small window though not under all angles
Next to it, a 4.76 carats with even more grey, lower saturation and a bigger window, which I had remarked during my previous trip, and which I quickly dismissed, having seen others.

Box-shot - N4 is the "smaller" on the right
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Tweezer shot on a white plate - window appears
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Tweezer shot with direct lights off (this place remained more lit indirectly from other shops and large windows than the shop of sapphire N3)
dsc_0118.jpg

Handshot under a strong light
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Handshot under a weaker light
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LeaD

Rough_Rock
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Feb 5, 2014
Messages
26
N5 & co

Another 3 sapphires with some merit but which I will not pursue. This shop was also 50-100% more expensive than N1-N2 or N4 for a quality that really did not strike me as better and worth the difference.
4.48 carats squarish cushion, very brilliant, light blue, not much substance as the stone sometimes appeared almost transparent
5.6 carats oval, royal blue with nice saturation, very cloudy with no inner brilliance sapphire turning completely dull under anything but direct light
2.6 carats squarish cushion, dark royal blue - too dark hue, especially before setting
I did not even bother asking for the particulars of the bottom right fourth one, which combined a clear window in the midst of a hidden black hole

Box shot with full light
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Box shot with low indirect light
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Just for fun and demonstration about the light hue bringing no substance to the 4.48 carats sapphire - this is indeed the same stone pictured in top left corner of the previous pics.
dsc_0089.jpg
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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LeaD|1392788687|3618390 said:
I have a growing feeling that low-saturated stones will always have a window somewhere under some angles. And I do not know whether to just systematically exclude them or if something might be done for it.

It depends more on the refractive index of the stone. A low RI stone will show a tilt window more easily. If it is also light toned, it is easier to see the tilt window. I doubt that saturation plays much of a role in this. In the case of the blue sapphires you are looking at, with a good cut, it should not window at all and a tilt window will not be easily seen unless tilted a lot.

Price per carat goes up exponentially, not linearly as the size goes up. There are large price jumps at certain carat weight marks as well, hence it is normal and expected that a 5 ct sapphire have a price/ct that is 3x more or thereabouts compared to a 2 ct sapphire if the colour quality is similar. Of course, some vendors will try to start at a higher price, expecting you to negotiate as well. Some vendors would like to more their old stock sooner and might be open to lower pricing. It all depends on the vendor in some cases as well.

It looks like you've looked at many different stones and have a good understanding of what to look for and what you are looking at. I'm sure you'll find your dream sapphire soon. FWIW, I like the first one best; good even colour face up, good cut and lovely strong blue.
 

smitcompton

Ideal_Rock
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Hi,

I love how you are going about shopping for your stone. You seem to have a good grasp of what it takes to get a good saphire.
I also like the first one the best. I love the color. It is smaller than many of th other but you have made a good start. I have no advise to make you sure you are receiving good value for the money, except to say you ought to get a report from AGL before you purchase.

A member here asked Richard Hughr to help her find a beautiful saphire. If it were me and I could afford it, I would ask him to find one for me. He is located in either Hong Kong or Thailand. He is a world renowned expert in rubies and sapphires.

Perhaps other members here could show you her thread. I am unable to use technology well, so can't do it myself.


Annette
 

LoversKites

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
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Messages
1,733
Anette is referring to slksapphire's sapphire. She made several threads about it, here's one --

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-7-stone-emerald-cut-blue-sapphire-ring.175313/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-7-stone-emerald-cut-blue-sapphire-ring.175313/[/URL]

I have no idea how she found and contacted Richard Hughes but if you can afford it I have no doubt that he will be able to source the best for you.

Of the ones you posted I like the smallest one most.
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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You can contact Dick via his website email which he actually responds to.
 

LeaD

Rough_Rock
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Feb 5, 2014
Messages
26
Thanks to all of you for your comments. Number 1 was also our top-contender, though the prices for the bigger stones made them look really attractive. The order more or less corresponded to our declining interest in the stones.

I had already read slksapphire's threads, as well as others', they were indeed very instructive, as the forum is in general.
However and unfortunately for myself, I really do not have the same, "healthy" if I remember her wording right, budget. Quite far from it. As a matter of fact, I don't even have a clear budget now - I'd expect something between 5 to 15 K - which is a very wide range and still very undetermined. If I tried to force the issue now with my husband, his answer would definitely be on the low and safe side. That's only by comparing different options that he can appreciate the quality and open more his wallet. It might seem strange to some of you, but that's the way we usually work and basically we always are of the same mind and have not had any problem agreeing on the best option / what we finally consider the adequate budget even in a range from 1 to 4.
That obviously would not make things very easy for someone else to help us in our search. And I believe this would not make sense for the lower end of the budget in any case.

An AGL certification will unfortunately only be possible, IF I find a stone at a gem fair to which AGL participates.
Luckily for me, slksapphire had already done the cost analysis from HK, but it should be exactly the same from Singapore, in the following thread - it just does not make sense for me to do it.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/how-to-get-an-agl-certificate.189205/page-2']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/how-to-get-an-agl-certificate.189205/page-2[/URL]
And local vendors will just, in my opinion, never agree to send the stone to the US for certification, prior to my purchasing it, meaning they bear the cost and the risk, should the gem be lost, while there are local certification companies in each country, more or less renowned and reliable. Usually among the local certification co, one is better than the others and it's not that difficult to find which one and cross-check with vendors. Moreover it gives an indication on the vendor's "honesty".
I believe that I can well live with only a local certification, provided and if only I can have it done by my choice company. I would not buy from certain countries, I would not trust equally all vendors, I will in any case not buy anything from anything else than a registered gem dealer/jeweller and I'll do my homework checking the vendor as much as I can, even though for most the gut feeling may be the only information. I will take time and am willing to have some stones sold to others, as long as we're not ready yet.

We might change our approach, trying to use the service of an agent or an appraiser, either Richard or by asking him for some referrals. It feels a bit too early now.
 

LoversKites

Brilliant_Rock
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I know you said you wont purchase for anyone other than a registered jeweller but I still think this is worth mentioning. A 3.59ct sapphire going for under 6k. It was sold from Finewater and the buyer is looking to sell it. Finewater has featured the listing several times in his newsletter, I wouldn't doubt it's authenticity. It has an AGL Prestige report. If you like the blue its a great price for a great stone.

I think its gorgeous =)
Link- http://loupetroop.com/listings/loose-stones-colored-gemstone/star-reduced-star-3-dot-59-ct-round-ceylon-sapphire-from-sri-lanka
 

LeaD

Rough_Rock
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Chrono|1392821519|3618529 said:
Price per carat goes up exponentially, not linearly as the size goes up. There are large price jumps at certain carat weight marks as well, hence it is normal and expected that a 5 ct sapphire have a price/ct that is 3x more or thereabouts compared to a 2 ct sapphire if the colour quality is similar. Of course, some vendors will try to start at a higher price, expecting you to negotiate as well. Some vendors would like to more their old stock sooner and might be open to lower pricing. It all depends on the vendor in some cases as well.

I read that and was honestly surprised that the price per carat for the bigger gems did not increase that much. I agree that the color for sapphire N1 was much better than any of the bigs, but the price per carat of the big ones was basically the same to that of the smaller (at least for sapphires 1, 2 and 4) and overall very very reasonable (below 1,500/carat). Of course, I can't say exactly if the bigs were price double or triple per carat compared to similar color sapphires of small sizes, as I did not try to find one with those criteria - I'd guess between 2 and 3, closer to 2.
I had the feeling that some of the bigger ones might be better "deals", especially if a precision or ar least way finer recut made in Thailand really allowed to close some of the windows - the gems should be deep enough and none has a real horrid native cut with the cullet totally offcenter for instance. Having an almost 7 carats for roughly 2 or 2.5 times the price of a 1-2 carat stone seem to confirm this. The reason is quite simple: there's a very very low rotation of any "expensive" stone (like any above 1000$ per piece).
And I know that thinking of potential future deals when trying to buy something for oneself is not the best way to get something satisfying on the long run, so I'll definitely curb my bad tendency :nono:.

However any views on whether it seems "normal"/enough to you that the N1 color should be priced twice as much per carat as the color of N2 or N4 for a similar sized stone? N3, 3 to 4 times more expensive than N2 and N4 ? I would say no, maybe double.
I know pictures do not facilitate that exercise but the price is the most difficult part to assess in my opinion. And your comments might help me for pursuing my quest.
Thanks again!
 

LeaD

Rough_Rock
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Thanks Loverskite
Indeed the vendor seems trustworthy. When I said registered vendor, I was excluding backdoor sales or self-proclaimed gem traders in Asia. I'm not totally sure about the color, though the cut is great. That's also one of the reasons why I prefer seeing the stone rather than buy over the internet, at least for now.
Isn't there a small window at the centre, visible on the first pic?
 

slksapphire

Shiny_Rock
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Dec 6, 2011
Messages
242
hi lea,

what a wonderful journey in your quest for a dream sapphire! all of the knowledge you have, and will continue to accumulate, the people you meet, the connections you make here on PS, will surely stir strong emotions whenever you gaze at your sapphire ... once you get your sticky little fingers on it. and i am sure you will, though it may take some time. but not to worry -- it only makes the search more interesting!

regarding your question about why the larger sapphires are not more expensive than the smallest. it is because you must compare like-for-like with respect to the most important criteria for sapphires, which is color. in your samples, none of the larger sapphires even comes close to the color of the first. and that, rather than cut, zoning, extinction, etc, is why they are so much cheaper on a per carat basis. if you were to find a larger sapphire that is comparable in color to the first, the price would go up exponentially, as chrono advised. the major "break points" in price are at 1 ct, 2 ct, 3 ct and 5 ct. and the increase truly is exponential at those break points.

good luck -- i am living vicariously through you in your journey!

eta: and i disagree with you that the reason for the larger stones being cheaper than the smaller ones is that there is less "rotation", i.e., demand, for the larger ones. in fact, there is extremely high demand for larger stones, albeit those with better color than you were shown.
 

LeaD

Rough_Rock
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slksapphire|1392897375|3619214 said:
hi lea,
eta: and i disagree with you that the reason for the larger stones being cheaper than the smaller ones is that there is less "rotation", i.e., demand, for the larger ones. in fact, there is extremely high demand for larger stones, albeit those with better color than you were shown.

The color is certainly the reason why those stones had not been purchased already by professionals.
But outside of professional gem traders which would grab all/most "perfect" stones and focus on those, I really don't believe there was much rotation for anything imperfect above $1000 there, while there was a market for really crappier smaller stones, whose prices per carat are not always that cheap in comparison. I guess it might change quickly, with the development of a "middle" market for imperfect though not completely crap stones. Until only a few months ago, it was only possible to pay in cash, and I mean piles of perfectly immaculate banknotes. Even international money transfers were almost impossible and awfully complicated a few months ago. I don't know of many people that bring several thousand dollars spare cash with them, especially when most come in organized tour where the large expenses are already covered.

Are the colors of the other sapphires that awful :errrr: or just so-so below average :( ?
 

slksapphire

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
242
please take my comments regarding color with a huge grain of salt because i am terrible at evaluating color on a screen (that's why i wanted to buy at a gem fair rather than through the internet). but when you look at hue, tone, saturation and zoning/extinction, the larger stones you posted are pretty far below average to me in at least one of those categories (and often several). if you hadn't told me the last stone was a sapphire (the one in the ring holder), i would have thought it was an aqua!
 

LoversKites

Brilliant_Rock
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1,733
Lea, I totally understand why you would rather buy the stone in person. If you were referring to the little circle thing in the middle I don't think that is a window - just where the facets meet.

Edit-- the other stones you posted are not awful, they're just not the best you can get for your money. You shouldn't settle for anything less than the best =)
 

LeaD

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
26
Thanks a lot for your comments. Our big interrogation we had was whether we had good sources for comparisons or just skimmed the top of sub-par materials. It seems it might well be the case. Let's hope Bangkok provide a better catch.

Indeed Dick's article is rather interesting and quite funny. It's exactly the reason why I'll never do backdoor or side-of-the-mine deals, never at any rough stone and will always require a certificate from the most reliable local firm. At least I'll limit the risk to buying something not worth the price asked for but hopefully not totally worthless. I spent 3 months working in Bangkok many years ago, so I'm quite familiar with the usual tricks.

If you're in for a bit of fun, I'll tell you an anecdote from last WE. We were walking out of the market, where the vendor had tried his game (a HK buyer came yesterday, offered 18 K for the stone but he refused and whatever else crap later on). My husband asked me whether I was sure that we were not looking at pieces of glass and synthetics. We discussed a bit about it. Just then, the tourist walking ahead of us got stopped by a toot lurking on the side promising rubies and showing a bag filled with mini-ziplocs holding each 1 or 2 gems. We both looked at it from where we were, a few feet away, and were just absolutely amazed. All the 20-30 "stones" had exactly the same hue, their sizes and cuts were perfectly calibrated, from there we knew they would be perfectly loupe-clean. The sun was flowing right through them. The color was candy-like or jewels for a 3-yo from the amusement park vending machine. I do not know how much the bunch was selling for and how many people get caught by this swindle. It just really seemed so gross and unbelievable.
I did not dare take a picture of the lot, I should have. Even with my crappy phone camera, from a few meters away, the fakeness :shock: could not not be seen.
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Colour is what sets the price, not cut and other factors although they do affect pricing, just not as much. In the other larger sapphires, the saturation was just not there. They appeared to "die" without strong sunlight and I suspect this might be why they were priced so low. How well a sapphire holds it colour also matters in pricing. Slight nuances in colour affects pricing, more so on larger sizes.

Synthetics and treated material come in all sorts of sizes, colours, clarity and etc. Do not automatically assume that an included and average looking sapphire is what it is, especially as you get closer to the source. If you are shopping for an unheated stone, at least you don't have to worry about diffusion, only whether the lab is experienced enough to detect heat treatment. Some smaller labs might give their opinion that it is unheated but a bigger lab might deem it heated. Oiling should be easy enough for most labs to detect although some may not disclose it unless you ask specifically.
 

pregcurious

Ideal_Rock
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Lea, thanks for an interesting post with great pictures. I agree with the others that the first stone has the best color, but I assume that if you are looking at bigger stones, size is important to you? Perhaps you can find a happy medium...a larger stone that is well cut, and has decent color. Of course, it will be more expensive, but if you give your husband the option, perhaps you can both agree on it.
 

LeaD

Rough_Rock
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Feb 5, 2014
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Chrono|1392914757|3619324 said:
Colour is what sets the price, not cut and other factors although they do affect pricing, just not as much. In the other larger sapphires, the saturation was just not there. They appeared to "die" without strong sunlight and I suspect this might be why they were priced so low. How well a sapphire holds it colour also matters in pricing. Slight nuances in colour affects pricing, more so on larger sizes.

So the best tests rely mostly on turning the lights off and bringing the gem in a darker area to check if it's still blue or turned grey.

Pregcurious: size is not that important - it was more a question of offering; the N1 is a bit small though. My real target is really in between.
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Check it out under various lights; outdoors and indoors (fluorescent, halogen, incandescent). The light doesn't have to be dim but neither do you want strong lighting. In short, regular lights that you think you'll be wearing and looking at your e-ring.
 
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