Putting your child on a leash????

[arkieb1]

Wow, and you call me judgmental. I suggest you reread my latest posts, especiaslly the last one. I said numerous times I respected other people's decisions. And I also pointed out had I seen how mothers here use the harness I probably would have had a different perspective.

Also, to be clear. At the restaurant the maitre d' told us where to put her wheelchair.

I suggest you reread your post. I have not been hostile or judgmental to anyone on here. I simply asked questions and as I heard from other mothers began to understand and appreciate their opinions and said so numerous times.

Yor post was uncalled for.

Yes it probably was uncalled for, but you know it's really easy to make uniformed judgements at home isn't it? After stating that people who harness kids make you want to scream and what is the world coming to, you went on to ask what does the general population do when they take kids to the theatre or out to dine and we told you some of them behave differently in other social situations or alternatively we take them home. Yes there are a small minority that let their kids go nuts, sometimes they cannot help this, sometimes they probably can. You and I and everyone else don't know what goes on in their lives so it's really easy to sit back and label something you see as bad parenting.

Then you state openly that you excuse people with kids with special needs using harnesses but "what concerns you is when children become a physical danger to someone else." I seriously doubt you would have the ability to differentiate between children that have ADHD and those on the spectrum and normal children, most of them look the same as any other child the only thing that is different is their behaviour. Plenty of normal children get overly tired and go nuts as well.... The mother might sit there ignoring the situation for a variety of reasons, it could be a difficult child, maybe the poor woman has had years with no sleep and does have a hyper child. She has just as much right to eat out occasionally and go out as everyone else.

It's really easy to blame other people. Your mother got wet, the first people you blamed are the child and the child's mother. It would be really easy for me to blame the staff at the restaurant for not suggesting a booth away from any small children, it would be really easy for me to blame you because you didn't have the forethought to say to them can we sit away from these people or seat your mother away from where any potentially accidents could occur or it would be really easy to blame you for not taking her to somewhere that didn't allow small children since you obviously have some sort of fixation on how badly behaved some of them are "these days".

Parenting is a tough enough gig already without self righteous halfwits who are armchair experts.

I am kind of over your cluelessness over the harnesses and the fact that lots of children do go nuts in social situations because they are all different. It would be great if we were having a polite discussion about it all but you have said a number of things challenging the choices of mothers that are pretty offensive. So when I point how I can view something from an entirely different perspective you are the first to call foul and go wow that was uncalled for. IMHO this WHOLE post was uncalled for. Reflect on that a little.....

 

[packrat]

I saw this on FB this morning and this thread immediately came to mind. http://blog.theautismsite.com/abcs-what-would-you-do-autism-segment/?utm_source=social&utm_medium=autaware&utm_campaign=abcs-what-would-you-do-autism-segment&utm_term=20140529

 

[arkieb1]

This is another great one everyone should read;

http://theantijared.com/2014/01/woman-child-sat-table-nine.html

 

[ruby59]

Arkie, you have gone from rude to nasty. So there is nothing for me to reflect on. IMO, your attitude is exactly what is wrong with society today. You continue to make excuses for bad behavior and feel the whole world should tolerate it.

I at least am learning from the comments being made. However, you refuse to even consider my opinion. There is nothing more I can say to you.

 

[arkieb1]

Arkie, you have gone from rude to nasty. So there is nothing for me to reflect on. IMO, your attitude is exactly what is wrong with society today.

I am not actually a nasty person, I am simply pointing out that sitting back at home it is easy to be critical without bothering to view situations from several different points of view depending upon whose shoes you are standing it. I am sorry that you are obviously too self righteous to be able to show compassion for others and incapable of getting this point. I agree lets move on.

I have friends that have an ADHD child and a child with autism and I see how difficult their lives are every day, I see how they are discriminated against and have had people making rude comments to them. I am lucky I have a well behaved child, just like yours were. I really doesn't matter at all if people do or don't use a harness it really doesn't define the type of child that the kid will grow up to be or the type of parent that person is.

 

[ruby59]

You just do not get it. There is a difference between tolerating bad behavior and those who are a danger to others. You feel I should tolerate your children and their handicaps. But what about my mom and her infirmities? You do not feel you have to keep your child at home, well my mom should be allowed to go to places and be safe. Why should I have to move to some out of the way booth? You think other people sitting at that table would have tolerated that behavior any better. And what about the restaurant? Do you think they appreciate your child running amok?


Yes children have problems. Yes adults are at their wits end doing the best they can. And those who have elderly parents are doing the best we can. So why make it more difficult for us?

I have plenty of compassion. My nephew has Down's syndrome. I know how difficult it can be. But my compassion ends when your child becomes a PHYSICAL DANGER to someonein my family.

 

[LLJsmom]

I have 3 of my own, so I am definitely not anti-children. And yes there are a lot of sweet ones out there. But all it takes is one to put my mom in the hospital or worse. Just like you are concerned about that one crazy adult driving like a maniac or that one perv I worry about that one rambunctious child who could severely hurt my mom and mom in law. And unfortunately, in this day and age, for what ever reason, there seem to be more uncontrollable children out there, which is why I started the harness discussion in the first place.

After another incident with a wayward child that almost knocked her to the ground, we put her in the wheel chair as an extra precaution.

Hi Ruby, I tried not to respond any more, but am finding it hard not to. I really feel for you because it seems that you have just been traumatized by this experience of your mom having water spilled on her at the restaurant and her being knocked over in another instance. I'm not going to respond to the harness question because I already have. I am responding to the comment about "uncontrollable children" (see above) in general. I wanted to give you some perspective, and some solutions.

Of course it's obvious that you can blame the uncontrolled child. That seems like an easy explanation. But is it effective in anyway in helping you deal with the situation at hand? Pointing the finger at "uncontrollable children" is not going to help. I think you will agree that you CANNOT control other people, grown ups, children, or anyone else. It seems to me you have a much larger concern about how the elderly are at-risk in society at large, and I wanted to address that.

My grandfather could not walk with a walker and had to have people holding on to him on his left and right side, same with my grandmother. My grandmother lived in Hong Kong. 7 million people in ONE city. Gives you an idea of the crowds right? When we went out, we would have three people practically surrounding her, which often included two grown grandchildren and one child. We KNEW that going out, they could be pushed over by anyone, anywhere. When we took them out, we adapted. We did what we had to do to sufficiently protect them. When we went to a restaurant, we seated them with their backs to the wall, neither side exposed to potential spills, bumps and other potential accidents, or at least to minimize the possibility of that happening. When we walked on the street, one person always walked in front, to protect them from anything oncoming.

I'm trying to say that society, life, will go on. CHILDREN are a fact of life. ELDERLY are a fact of life. I and all my family are aware that we CANNOT control everything and everyone around us. As much as parents can teach and control and reign in their children, children can be PHYSICALLY fast, small, energetic (everyone please forgive me for generalizing here) and not aware of everything around them. They are not designed to be at that age, nor should they be expected to be as fully aware and in control of themselves as a full grown adult. It is the nature of children. You were a child once. Everyone was a child once. ELDERLY are slower than children. They are not as agile, flexible, and as quickly responsive as when they were younger. It is what happens to humans as we AGE.

But children are born and must go through the stages of life. In this society, it would not be realistic to expect them to be kept at home until they could control themselves as a full grown adult would. Just like it's not fair to say that the elderly should stay at home because they are slower and being in public would cause everyone around them to have to slow down.

This is just another fact of life. Just as parents protect their newborns in public, put their baby carriers in a seat that is against the wall instead of in the aisle, the elderly need to be protected even more. I can appreciate that you have tried to protect your mother, getting her a walker and such. But maybe more measures need to be taken. If it were me, in the case of the restaurant, I would not have accepted a table where my fragile parent would be exposed to people walking back and forth in the aisles. Any person walking by could accidentally bump them. In the same vein, I would also not place my child in the aisle either, also for fear of spills and other accidents. I don't care if the hostess sat my parent there, just as I wouldn't care if they told me to put my child there. In the end, I am responsible for them. No one would know that my mom is prone to chronic heart failure. Only I know that. And I would be the one to have to take them to the hospital if something happened, so the onus is on me. I would do everything in my power to protect them. "Sorry, this table is unacceptable. My Mother has chronic heart failure. If anything were to spill on her, she could wind up in the hospital." I would have no compunction about saying that out loud and requiring another table. If my child is hurt, it is also my responsibility as well. And unfortunately, you can control only your actions. You cannot control the "uncontrollable children".

So going forward, I would focus on what I could control and change. Maybe it is NOT enough for it just to be you taking your mother out. Maybe you need the help of two additional people. Maybe it's not just McDonald's that you can't take her. Maybe you can take her to the mall only between the hours of 10-12 in the morning on Mondays-Wednesdays because that is when it is the emptiest and when it is the safest. Well, sad to say, that's life. That's part of aging. Just as parents must change the diapers of babies, feed them, wash them and clothe them, most elderly must be taken care of at some stage of their lives. Their lives will change and those that love and care for them must adjust, more and more.

Having aging parents is a hard thing. My own are getting up there. However, there are no laws against people bringing their children out in public, just as there are no laws against the elderly being out in public. "Uncontrollable children" are the not only danger to the elderly. How about traffic lights that don't last long enough for the elderly to cross? How about public buses that don't provide enough seating specified for the elderly only? How about people that don't get up if an elderly person gets on the bus? If you are really upset about it, and want things to change, you may need to take it to a legislative level. The elderly are becoming a larger and larger percentage of the population in the US. AARP has a lot of clout in Congress. Who knows?? I'm just trying to offer practical suggestions and steer this conversation down a more constructive path.

Best wishes to you Ruby.

 

[arkieb1]

You just do not get it. There is a difference between tolerating bad behavior and those who are a danger to others. You feel I should tolerate your children and their handicaps. But what about my mom and her infirmities? You do not feel you have to keep your child at home, well my mom should be allowed to go to places and be safe.

I have plenty of compassion. My nephew has Down's syndrome. I know how difficult it can be. But my compassion ends when your child becomes a PHYSICAL DANGER.

Actually I agree with you. Your Mum does have the right to go out and feel safe - everyone does. What you don't want to accept is that a range of bad decisions and judgement calls about where she was sitting was partially your fault for putting her in that situation, not just the behaviour of a bad child.

It is kind of ironic to me that you are O.K with making sweeping generalisations about people you don't know yet when I do the same, you don't like it. I can see the whole thing from your POV, you were in a hurry, the waiters told you where to seat your mother, it was easier to sit there than have to get up and go somewhere else and ask to be moved. I am glad if nothing else that this whole thing is making you think well yes there might be a range of reasons why people do harness their kids and why they do happen to go nuts in public places occasionally.

You didn't start off talking about children that are physically dangerous. And lets face it most people that have children like this simply don't go out anywhere. I have worked with children like this in the past and I can tell you their parents generally unless they have a heap of special needs carers don't take them out so they can be a danger to anyone, so lets not confuse the issue here. What you are attacking are every day people who take their kids out who behave badly. It happens. Is it good or bad, right or wrong? I don't have the answer. It is up to each of us as to how we react and how we deal with it. I think it was Kenny that posted this but I love it;


I agree with LLJsMom, the gist of why you are upset is you have an elderly person to care for and protect and you are blaming other people that have small children as potential sources of her getting hurt. What we are pointing out to you is that with careful planning you can reduce the risks of that happening. There are a million different hazards to the elderly than just small children when you take them out anywhere.....I have both very elderly people in my family and young kids and I mange to be able to go out in harmony without either group being placed in dangerous situations, it takes more forethought and planning but it is possible.

 

[Indylady]

I have 3 of my own, so I am definitely not anti-children. And yes there are a lot of sweet ones out there. But all it takes is one to put my mom in the hospital or worse. Just like you are concerned about that one crazy adult driving like a maniac or that one perv I worry about that one rambunctious child who could severely hurt my mom and mom in law. And unfortunately, in this day and age, for what ever reason, there seem to be more uncontrollable children out there, which is why I started the harness discussion in the first place.

After another incident with a wayward child that almost knocked her to the ground, we put her in the wheel chair as an extra precaution.

Hi Ruby, I tried not to respond any more, but am finding it hard not to. I really feel for you because it seems that you have just been traumatized by this experience of your mom having water spilled on her at the restaurant and her being knocked over in another instance. I'm not going to respond to the harness question because I already have. I am responding to the comment about "uncontrollable children" (see above) in general. I wanted to give you some perspective, and some solutions.

Of course it's obvious that you can blame the uncontrolled child. That seems like an easy explanation. But is it effective in anyway in helping you deal with the situation at hand? Pointing the finger at "uncontrollable children" is not going to help. I think you will agree that you CANNOT control other people, grown ups, children, or anyone else. It seems to me you have a much larger concern about how the elderly are at-risk in society at large, and I wanted to address that.

My grandfather could not walk with a walker and had to have people holding on to him on his left and right side, same with my grandmother. My grandmother lived in Hong Kong. 7 million people in ONE city. Gives you an idea of the crowds right? When we went out, we would have three people practically surrounding her, which often included two grown grandchildren and one child. We KNEW that going out, they could be pushed over by anyone, anywhere. When we took them out, we adapted. We did what we had to do to sufficiently protect them. When we went to a restaurant, we seated them with their backs to the wall, neither side exposed to potential spills, bumps and other potential accidents, or at least to minimize the possibility of that happening. When we walked on the street, one person always walked in front, to protect them from anything oncoming.

I'm trying to say that society, life, will go on. CHILDREN are a fact of life. ELDERLY are a fact of life. I and all my family are aware that we CANNOT control everything and everyone around us. As much as parents can teach and control and reign in their children, children can be PHYSICALLY fast, small, energetic (everyone please forgive me for generalizing here) and not aware of everything around them. They are not designed to be at that age, nor should they be expected to be as fully aware and in control of themselves as a full grown adult. It is the nature of children. You were a child once. Everyone was a child once. ELDERLY are slower than children. They are not as agile, flexible, and as quickly responsive as when they were younger. It is what happens to humans as we AGE.

But children are born and must go through the stages of life. In this society, it would not be realistic to expect them to be kept at home until they could control themselves as a full grown adult would. Just like it's not fair to say that the elderly should stay at home because they are slower and being in public would cause everyone around them to have to slow down.

This is just another fact of life. Just as parents protect their newborns in public, put their baby carriers in a seat that is against the wall instead of in the aisle, the elderly need to be protected even more. I can appreciate that you have tried to protect your mother, getting her a walker and such. But maybe more measures need to be taken. If it were me, in the case of the restaurant, I would not have accepted a table where my fragile parent would be exposed to people walking back and forth in the aisles. Any person walking by could accidentally bump them. In the same vein, I would also not place my child in the aisle either, also for fear of spills and other accidents. I don't care if the hostess sat my parent there, just as I wouldn't care if they told me to put my child there. In the end, I am responsible for them. No one would know that my mom is prone to chronic heart failure. Only I know that. And I would be the one to have to take them to the hospital if something happened, so the onus is on me. I would do everything in my power to protect them. "Sorry, this table is unacceptable. My Mother has chronic heart failure. If anything were to spill on her, she could wind up in the hospital." I would have no compunction about saying that out loud and requiring another table. If my child is hurt, it is also my responsibility as well. And unfortunately, you can control only your actions. You cannot control the "uncontrollable children".

So going forward, I would focus on what I could control and change. Maybe it is NOT enough for it just to be you taking your mother out. Maybe you need the help of two additional people. Maybe it's not just McDonald's that you can't take her. Maybe you can take her to the mall only between the hours of 10-12 in the morning on Mondays-Wednesdays because that is when it is the emptiest and when it is the safest. Well, sad to say, that's life. That's part of aging. Just as parents must change the diapers of babies, feed them, wash them and clothe them, most elderly must be taken care of at some stage of their lives. Their lives will change and those that love and care for them must adjust, more and more.

Having aging parents is a hard thing. My own are getting up there. However, there are no laws against people bringing their children out in public, just as there are no laws against the elderly being out in public. "Uncontrollable children" are the not only danger to the elderly. How about traffic lights that don't last long enough for the elderly to cross? How about public buses that don't provide enough seating specified for the elderly only? How about people that don't get up if an elderly person gets on the bus? If you are really upset about it, and want things to change, you may need to take it to a legislative level. The elderly are becoming a larger and larger percentage of the population in the US. AARP has a lot of clout in Congress. Who knows?? I'm just trying to offer practical suggestions and steer this conversation down a more constructive path.

Best wishes to you Ruby.

Great post, LLJSmom

 

[LLJsmom]

Great post, LLJSmom

Thanks IndyLady. I hope Ruby can figure it out...

 

[Circe]

Hoo, this seems to have gone way off-topic ... but, a) I love this board and its general air of reasonableness: can't think of another where the majority are preaching tolerance and understanding towards even the "bad" parents/kids!, and, b) I actually want to address the leash qua leash issue, 'cause I LOVED mine!

I remember a lot from 1 1/2 or so on. So I remember first-hand what being on a leash was like, as my parents had me on one between 2 and 3, i.e., the point where I'd learned to walk and run, but was still tripping over my own feet often enough that my nickname should have been "Leatherface" for all the scabs I had from falling on my face. It felt like FLYING. I could run at a 45% angle to the ground! Remember that scene from "Titanic" where they're impersonating the prow? It was like that, but mobile. So I say save the sympathy ... kids can love those things (and so can parents, when the alternative is a kid who's not even misbehaving, just clumsy).

(Seriously, I'm not kidding. This has been a thread with a lot of well-timed sarcasm, so I want to be clear here: totally serious, leashes = AWESOME for some kids.)

Alas, my son is NOT willing to wear the leash: he acts more or less like my cats did when I tried taking them out for walks if I put it on him. And it's a cute one! Lion backpack! But, nope ... I think he understands that it's meant to encourage compliance. And, given that he's 2 .... The Swedes call this "the spite age." I think that's the best term I've ever heard for it. "Terrible two" implies badness, dislike, and I don't think my kid is terrible. He is, however, hellbent for leather on asserting himself, which I hear is healthy at this age ... secure attachment, individuation, all that jazz. But it's exhausting.

 

[amc80]

I don't think there's any parenting method that will make everyone happy, nor should there be. We were shopping on Black Friday (morning), pushing B in his stroller. Some older ladies walked by us, looked at B, and said "that kid is too old for a stroller." 1) would you prefer him on a leash? Because apparently people don't like that, either. 2) or, would you like him running around? Doubtful. 3) Most importantly, he was all of 15 months old at that time. 15 months! He's huge and now, at 21 months, looks like he's about 3. We are always getting stares from people when he acts up (which isn't very often, luckily). They think we have a really badly behaved preschooler when really we just have a normal toddler. I guess the moral is to not take everything at face value. You never know if the kid has other things going on or what. I'm not excusing bad behavior, but they are kids. It happens. Part of them growing up is learning through mistakes.

ETA- we would never take him to a fancy restaurant at this age. We went on a cruise which did have a formal dinner. We made it our priority to make sure he was behaving. This meant we gave him French fries for dinner every night, because that was the only thing he'd eat quietly. I'm sure people were judging us for that, but it was better than the alternative.

 

[ruby59]

Great post, LLJSmom

Thanks IndyLady. I hope Ruby can figure it out...

Wow. Is this a test to see what I learned. Yes, to another poster, the sarcasm between this and the winkies in another post are running rampant.

Arkie, thank you for your last reply. To the poster above you, thank you for your response as well. It is difficult protecting the elderly. I am just trying to give my mom and mom in law the best life they have left. To those who showed understanding in their responses, thank you as well. I understand and respect your decisions and have learned a lot from them. To the others, I "figured out" nothing from your posts.

 

[Indylady]

Great post, LLJSmom

Thanks IndyLady. I hope Ruby can figure it out...

Wow. Is this a test to see what I learned. Yes, to another poster, the sarcasm between this and the winkies in another post are running rampant.

Arkie, thank you for your last reply. To the poster above you, thank you for your response as well. It is difficult protecting the elderly. I am just trying to give my mom and mom in law the best life they have left. To those who showed understanding in their responses, thank you as well. I understand and respect your decisions and have learned a lot from them. To the others, I "figured out" nothing from your posts.

There was no sarcasm implied or intended--I found LLJsmom's post to be very thoughtful and well reasoned. Its clear that she is understanding of your situation and care taking duties, and the post that I quoted does not seem sarcastic, ill intentioned, or combative either.

 

[LLJsmom]

Great post, LLJSmom

Thanks IndyLady. I hope Ruby can figure it out...

Wow. Is this a test to see what I learned. Yes, to another poster, the sarcasm between this and the winkies in another post are running rampant.

Arkie, thank you for your last reply. To the poster above you, thank you for your response as well. It is difficult protecting the elderly. I am just trying to give my mom and mom in law the best life they have left. To those who showed understanding in their responses, thank you as well. I understand and respect your decisions and have learned a lot from them. To the others, I "figured out" nothing from your posts.

There was no sarcasm implied or intended--I found LLJsmom's post to be very thoughtful and well reasoned. Its clear that she is understanding of your situation and care taking duties, and the post that I quoted does not seem sarcastic, ill intentioned, or combative either.

IndyLady, she might have meant me. (I could not read any ill intention in your comment. You barely wrote anything.) "figure it out" may not have sounded nice to her. I meant figure it out in her head, and I should have said "I hope Ruby can find a way to make peace with the situation, and move forward". I think being angry and always having a target to blame just holds you back from finding the joy of any situation you are in. Her mother and MIL are elderly, but they are still here. One of my grandmas passed at 80. I was happy just to hold her hand and sit next to her.

 

[random_thought]

So what I get from this is that if I do not have the perfect child, I should not leave my house to go out in public ever.

Too bad we have no babysitter. Our son goes with us to restaurants, movies, the grocery store, church, everywhere.

He may not always be a perfect angel but kids will be kids. You can't live your life expecting life not to happen.

 

[kenny]

Don't you know? ... Only perfect people should be allowed to have kids, which of course will be perfect kids.
The rest of us should be sterilized, better yet, shipped off into outer space so we don't annoy the perfect people.

 

[ruby59]

Don't you know? ... Only perfect people should be allowed to have kids, which of course will be perfect kids.
The rest of us should be sterilized, better yet, shipped off into outer space so we don't annoy the perfect people.

If I were the "perfect" people would I be on here having a discussion, trying to connect and compare with other moms out there. Since I am perfect, why even question it. I should have already known I am "perfect" so why even solicit you all's opinions? And would perfect people keep saying I appreciate and understand your opinions and have learned from them?

Kenny, you have started threads on here. Ever hit a nerve?

 

[kenny]

Don't you know? ... Only perfect people should be allowed to have kids, which of course will be perfect kids.
The rest of us should be sterilized, better yet, shipped off into outer space so we don't annoy the perfect people.

If I were the "perfect" people would I be on here having a discussion, trying to connect and compare with other moms out there. Since I am perfect, why even question it. I should have already known I am "perfect" so why even solicit you all's opinions? And would perfect people keep saying I appreciate and understand your opinions and have learned from them?

Kenny, you have started threads on here. Ever hit a nerve?

Sure.
Quite often I get feedback I don't like ... but sometimes it's exactly what I need to hear.
I've grown and benefited by feedback on fora, some of which didn't feel very good at the time.

It's a good thing, that is if a person is open to personal growth.

 

[random_thought]

Don't you know? ... Only perfect people should be allowed to have kids, which of course will be perfect kids.
The rest of us should be sterilized, better yet, shipped off into outer space so we don't annoy the perfect people.

If I were the "perfect" people would I be on here having a discussion, trying to connect and compare with other moms out there. Since I am perfect, why even question it. I should have already known I am "perfect" so why even solicit you all's opinions? And would perfect people keep saying I appreciate and understand your opinions and have learned from them?

Kenny, you have started threads on here. Ever hit a nerve?

Sure.
Quite often I get feedback I don't like ... but sometimes it's exactly what I need to hear.
I've grown and benefited by feedback on fora, some of which didn't feel very good at the time.

It's a good thing, that is if a person is open to personal growth.

 

[ruby59]

Don't you know? ... Only perfect people should be allowed to have kids, which of course will be perfect kids.
The rest of us should be sterilized, better yet, shipped off into outer space so we don't annoy the perfect people.

If I were the "perfect" people would I be on here having a discussion, trying to connect and compare with other moms out there. Since I am perfect, why even question it. I should have already known I am "perfect" so why even solicit you all's opinions? And would perfect people keep saying I appreciate and understand your opinions and have learned from them?

Kenny, you have started threads on here. Ever hit a nerve?

Sure.
Quite often I get feedback I don't like ... but sometimes it's exactly what I need to hear.
I've grown and benefited by feedback on fora, some of which didn't feel very good at the time.

It's a good thing, that is if a person is open to personal growth.

Fair enough, but wouldn't my thanking people and telling them I have learned from them and that if I had seen them use a harness I would probably have had a different perspective be evidence of my personal growth????????????????

 

[random_thought]

Don't you know? ... Only perfect people should be allowed to have kids, which of course will be perfect kids.
The rest of us should be sterilized, better yet, shipped off into outer space so we don't annoy the perfect people.

If I were the "perfect" people would I be on here having a discussion, trying to connect and compare with other moms out there. Since I am perfect, why even question it. I should have already known I am "perfect" so why even solicit you all's opinions? And would perfect people keep saying I appreciate and understand your opinions and have learned from them?

Kenny, you have started threads on here. Ever hit a nerve?

Sure.
Quite often I get feedback I don't like ... but sometimes it's exactly what I need to hear.
I've grown and benefited by feedback on fora, some of which didn't feel very good at the time.

It's a good thing, that is if a person is open to personal growth.

Fair enough, but wouldn't my thanking people and telling them I have learned from them and that if I had seen them use a harness I would probably have had a different perspective be evidence of my personal growth????????????????

Normally yes, but it seems as though everyone in this thread keeps beating the dead horse and so it is brought up again...and again...and again...and again...

 

[pregcurious]

I have not read all the posts, but I have used one about 10 times when my first was about 2. I used it in museums when they were crowded to the point that you could not freely walk. When you have an excited child and are surrounded my strangers who come between you and you kid, I don't think thats a safe situation. I know parents who have lost their kids temporarily or permanently because they looked away. A friend of mine has a friend who lost her child at the beach. The police think the kid drowned and was carried away.

I don't think there is anything wrong with using them if you can't safely keep an eye on your kids. Also, kids are different. My second is so much more chill than my first.

If your toddler cannot go anywhere without a leash, that is different, and I have never seen that with anyone