Princess cut proportions

[gemnovice]

Hi,

I am in my first week of looking for a nice diamond for a solitaire engagement ring, and my sources inform me that my sweetie has her heart set on a Princess cut.  I was finding it a little difficult to figure out how to evaluate different princess cuts, in particular their proportions (table/depth percentages, etc), as most of the information I''ve found on the web has been about round brilliants.

Thanks to this great forum, I found a helpful chart at www.gemappraisers.com, but I was wondering if there are other considerations I should be asking about.  For instance, I have heard that table should be smaller than depth--how important is this?  Anything else I should look for when evaluating the cut of a princess?

I looked at a couple of stones at a local jewelry store this week, and I thought one in particular looked nice (more brilliant than a few other princesses they showed me), but now that I look at the charts it seems not so nice.  And from looking at prices on the web it seems like my store is a little pricey too.  Here are the specs on the stone I liked:

1.54C princess, F, VS2
GIA cert:
Rectangular modified brilliant
6.33 x 5.98 x 4.78 mm
Depth: 79.9%
Table: 76%
Girdle: thin to very thick

Price: $13,950 in setting (setting alone $800)

I kind of like going to a jewelry store, because I can see the stones in person, and it''s convenient, but if I''m way overpaying, maybe it''s not worth it.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

-clancy

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 2/19/2005 12:29:50 PM
Author:gemnovice
Hi,

I am in my first week of looking for a nice diamond for a solitaire engagement ring, and my sources inform me that my sweetie has her heart set on a Princess cut. I was finding it a little difficult to figure out how to evaluate different princess cuts, in particular their proportions (table/depth percentages, etc), as most of the information I''ve found on the web has been about round brilliants.

Thanks to this great forum, I found a helpful chart at www.gemappraisers.com, but I was wondering if there are other considerations I should be asking about. For instance, I have heard that table should be smaller than depth--how important is this? Anything else I should look for when evaluating the cut of a princess?

I looked at a couple of stones at a local jewelry store this week, and I thought one in particular looked nice (more brilliant than a few other princesses they showed me), but now that I look at the charts it seems not so nice. And from looking at prices on the web it seems like my store is a little pricey too. Here are the specs on the stone I liked:

1.54C princess, F, VS2
GIA cert:
Rectangular modified brilliant
6.33 x 5.98 x 4.78 mm
Depth: 79.9%
Table: 76%
Girdle: thin to very thick

Price: $13,950 in setting (setting alone $800)

I kind of like going to a jewelry store, because I can see the stones in person, and it''s convenient, but if I''m way overpaying, maybe it''s not worth it.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

-clancy

Dear Clancy,

Read the article posted on the lower left corner about AGSLabs new proposed grading specs for princess cuts.

My advice is to wait till the new specs are out in their final software, and the cutters produce better princess cuts that what are currently available.

Of course the decision to get one of the potentially better cut will carry with it a greater price, because a lot more of the rough material has to be polished away. You may decide that the current cuts are good enough, that of course is your decision based on any time constraints that you have.

Proportional "numbers" are not always equivalent to assessing the beauty of fancy shapes.

Rockdoc

 

[gemnovice]

Date: 2/19/2005 4:23:18 PM
Author: RockDoc

Read the article posted on the lower left corner about AGSLabs new proposed grading specs for princess cuts.

My advice is to wait till the new specs are out in their final software, and the cutters produce better princess cuts that what are currently available.

Thanks--that is very interesting.  Do you have any idea when these new specs are likely to come out?  I am not in a huge hurry, but it would be nice to have a ring by May.

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

My advice is to wait till the new specs are out in their final software, and the cutters produce better princess cuts that what are currently available.

Above posted by Rockdoc

Hello Gemnovice:

First let me state that I think what Bill is trying to get across here is that there is cut grading which is evolving for fancy shape diamonds which have been taking a back seat to rounds over the years. Cutters will have to conform to some of the new standards in fancy-cut grading which will force them to produce better performing stones to market them at a premium. In short, improvements are being made which will prompt a cutter to yield a better stone.

I also want to emphasize that a large portion of the general retail market will be affected, but I think some other points should be brought up which Bill did not mention in his thread.

(Bill this is not an attack)

There are some cutters who are already cutting diamonds which peform above and beyond the majority of stones you might typically see in the general retail market for both optimum light performance as well as proportionally producing a more appealing, better performing diamond. There is a smaller percentage of cutters producing princess cut stones which optimize the concert of fire, brilliance, & scintillation compared to the bigger "niche" who are optimizing these affects in rounds.

I think what Bill is trying to convey is that there will more changes for those cutters who are not producing these diamonds, which encompasses a much broader segment of the market, especially in fancy-cuts.

However, there are cutters who are producing awesome princess cut stones which have some of the most intense light reurn vs. a large majority of the market.

Some things to Consider:

Shopping on-line will give you access to a large variety of stones and "those cutters" who are already producing the best of the best yielding top performing princess cut stones.

I would take a look at Dave''s charts and get a general idea of the parameters which might yield a better performing stone. I would then compare sarin data and pick a diamond which might make one of the top grades.

I would use an on-line vendor who publishes sarin data as well as idealscope photo''s of diamonds which fall into the parameters set by Dave''s cut charts. The idealscope photo''s will help show you diamonds which have great contrast and reduced light leakage.

There are stones which typically might be outside these parameters. This is why it is so important to not shop strictly by the numbers and use your eyes.

It is even more important to deal with a vendor or get the stone checked by an independent appraiser who is familiar with all the nuances surrounding fancy-cut grading.

I would take a look on-line:

Some great vendors who either cut and/or sell top performers I have seen in the past which encompass this smaller niche are:

Whiteflash, GoodoldGold, Super-B-Cert, and Niceice.

All these folks have sarin data, certed stones, and publish idealsscope photo''s. WF and Super-B-cert cut and sell their stones so you also have an advantage of talking with the cutter directly. Also make the sale contingent on the verification from an independent appraiser like RockDoc, Richard Sherwood, Dave Atlas, or Neil B. who also frequent this forum.

Sorry if this post seemed long winded, Hope it Helps

Maybe these appraisers can chime in on top performing princess stones they have seen and from which on-line vendor''s.

 

[belle]

well said josh.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 2/19/2005 9:53:46 PM
Author: Colored Gemstone Nut
My advice is to wait till the new specs are out in their final software, and the cutters produce better princess cuts that what are currently available.

Above posted by Rockdoc

Hello Gemnovice:

First let me state that I think what Bill is trying to get across here is that there is cut grading which is evolving for fancy shape diamonds which have been taking a back seat to rounds over the years. Cutters will have to conform to some of the new standards in fancy-cut grading which will force them to produce better performing stones to market them at a premium. In short, improvements are being made which will prompt a cutter to yield a better stone.

I also want to emphasize that a large portion of the general retail market will be affected, but I think some other points should be brought up which Bill did not mention in his thread.

(Bill this is not an attack)

There are some cutters who are already cutting diamonds which peform above and beyond the majority of stones you might typically see in the general retail market for both optimum light performance as well as proportionally producing a more appealing, better performing diamond. There is a smaller percentage of cutters producing princess cut stones which optimize the concert of fire, brilliance, & scintillation compared to the bigger ''niche'' who are optimizing these affects in rounds.

I think what Bill is trying to convey is that there will more changes for those cutters who are not producing these diamonds, which encompasses a much broader segment of the market, especially in fancy-cuts.

However, there are cutters who are producing awesome princess cut stones which have some of the most intense light reurn vs. a large majority of the market.

Some things to Consider:

Shopping on-line will give you access to a large variety of stones and ''those cutters'' who are already producing the best of the best yielding top performing princess cut stones.

I would take a look at Dave''s charts and get a general idea of the parameters which might yield a better performing stone. I would then compare sarin data and pick a diamond which might make one of the top grades.

I would use an on-line vendor who publishes sarin data as well as idealscope photo''s of diamonds which fall into the parameters set by Dave''s cut charts. The idealscope photo''s will help show you diamonds which have great contrast and reduced light leakage.

There are stones which typically might be outside these parameters. This is why it is so important to not shop strictly by the numbers and use your eyes.

It is even more important to deal with a vendor or get the stone checked by an independent appraiser who is familiar with all the nuances surrounding fancy-cut grading.

I would take a look on-line:

Some great vendors who either cut and/or sell top performers I have seen in the past which encompass this smaller niche are:

Whiteflash, GoodoldGold, Super-B-Cert, and Niceice.

All these folks have sarin data, certed stones, and publish idealsscope photo''s. WF and Super-B-cert cut and sell their stones so you also have an advantage of talking with the cutter directly. Also make the sale contingent on the verification from an independent appraiser like RockDoc, Richard Sherwood, Dave Atlas, or Neil B. who also frequent this forum.

Sorry if this post seemed long winded, Hope it Helps

Maybe these appraisers can chime in on top performing princess stones they have seen and from which on-line vendor''s.

Hi Josh

I absolutely do not think that your post is an attack....

As far as what we''ve seen, there are stones cut better, far better than others, but what is the ULTIMATE princess?

I have my theories, but so far no one has sent me one, cut to my specs..

I have seen some very attractive princess cuts, but I am sure I haven''t seen the ULTIMATE one yet....I am not sure if the ultimate set of proportions will really yield the ultimate looking stone.

Depending on the size, color and clarity, stones with what I consider to be potentially the best is not available. As the AGS system evolves and more cutters start producing inventory, I believe this will a plus for those shopping for Princess Cuts.

An interesting question is that when this does happen, and better stones appear due to the grading changes in AGS, what will happen as the information is learned by the consumer? Will the current traditionally proportioned stones get recut and re-certed, or will the prices on these drop or remain stable?

If a glut of mediocre stones is left in dealer''s inventories, that may affect their price even if the newer AGS 0 graded princesses start showing up on dealer sales lists.

What will happen when people learn of the new gradings? Will they want to trade their stones for better ones? Will they keep theirs ?

It will be most interesting to watch public acceptance of the new cuts, and to actually see and test these to see what level of difference can be ascertained by both the expert eye, and the consumers perception of the differences.

I think consumers will have a far more diversified menu in the future.

Thanks for the reply Josh...

Rockdoc

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Hi Bill: My comments will be in Blue following yours..

I absolutely do not think that your post is an attack....

Good, because I love a good debate..

As far as what we've seen, there are stones cut better, far better than others, but what is the ULTIMATE princess?
I have my theories, but so far no one has sent me one, cut to my specs..
What would your specs be Bill...I am primarily interested because you have a broad range of experience in this field and I think you have crucial insight.

I have seen some very attractive princess cuts, but I am sure I haven't seen the ULTIMATE one yet....I am not sure if the ultimate set of proportions will really yield the ultimate looking stone.
I agree with you Bill. Mainly do you agree besides the crown/pavilion angle it is the facet size, length, placement and angle orientation of the pavilion facets on these princess cuts that attributes to most stones performing better than others. I have done a lot of work and research on RB's and want your insight on this...

Depending on the size, color and clarity, stones with what I consider to be potentially the best is not available. As the AGS system evolves and more cutters start producing inventory, I believe this will a plus for those shopping for Princess Cuts.
An interesting question is that when this does happen, and better stones appear due to the grading changes in AGS, what will happen as the information is learned by the consumer? Will the current traditionally proportioned stones get recut and re-certed, or will the prices on these drop or remain stable?

Well Bill, I have noticed that the price of princess cuts seem to be really stable or flat. Rounds fluctuate with “Cut” quality so as the cut worsens the price drops. It seems in princess cut stones the premium doesn't exist compared to rounds nor is the price affected from a poorly cut stone (which would probably result from a dull stone being cut to yield weight). I think a large majority of consumers are shown average stones which “look” ok but the WEIGHT issue takes a precedent over beauty.

I think it is a good thing that changes will be coming, but question what kind of affect it will have on the general market. Surely you agree the more these fine princess makes are seen on the market the more they will have an impact on consumer demand, which I believe dictates these price fluctuations we see in Rounds. I think good things will come, but I have seen differing opinions on the front from other vendors I’ve talked with.

I think a bigger issue is some of the vendors and B&M stores are going to have to change the way they have traditionally marketed these stones to meet consumer demand. It is a good thing, but will probably be frowned on by some of the critics who are stuck in the traditional way of selling diamonds.
If a glut of mediocre stones is left in dealer's inventories, that may affect their price even if the newer AGS 0 graded princesses start showing up on dealer sales lists.
What will happen when people learn of the new gradings? Will they want to trade their stones for better ones? Will they keep theirs ?
It will be most interesting to watch public acceptance of the new cuts, and to actually see and test these to see what level of difference can be ascertained by both the expert eye, and the consumers perception of the differences.
I think consumers will have a far more diversified menu in the future.

I think another issue which will make a bigger impact on the market is the growth of internet sales and the segment of this market which will make their buying decision based on better educating themselves or having an awareness of the new grading system.

5 years ago total internet sales made up around 1.5-2% of the total market for diamond purchases which 5 years later is up to 5% and climbing. This is a small segment of the overall diamond buying market. Out of this 5%, it is interesting to see how many people made their purchases because they were more educated and how the affects of standard cut grading for rounds have prompted the new cut grading for other styles of cutting.

Whether internet sales grow or not the industry will be impacted on following the newer standards implemented by AGS which will force cutters to conform. A big part of this will depend on how volatile the market reacts based on consumer demand after the initial changes are implemented. I think a large portion of this pricing will be dictated by the majority of the market who do not purchase on-line being that this is comprised of the biggest portion of the consumers buying diamonds.

I think the smaller portion (5%) of consumers buying online have made themselves more aware to the finer details of analytical diamond buying including the many qualitative and quantitative approaches. This makes the smaller segment of online educated consumers more powerful as a whole and as this number grows a bigger shift and more rapid evolution of how diamonds are marketed (especially ideals) will prompt new things to come in an already changing industry from the ground up. This is what I think Pricescope has influenced the most.

I think as the pendulum gradually starts to shift price fluctuations will occur just how they have evolved in ideal rounds and maybe we will see some of the dog cut princess stones being re-cut to obtain more beauty just as we see the group of folks presently getting their rounds re-cut in the Super-Ideal market today.

Thanks for the reply Josh...
Interested in hearing anyone’s thoughts…

 

[Dancing Fire]

RockDoc

same question with rb''s,what will the (consumer and vendors) do when they wake up one morning and find out their stone it''s no longer a "0" cut? base on the new cut grade.

 

[gemnovice]

Josh and Rockdoc,

This discussion has been really helpful for me, trying to learn more about princess cuts.  Josh, I''ll certainly look at those online vendors you mentioned and compare as many stones as I can.  I''m still a little wary about buying a princess cut on the internet, as it sounds (especially from some things Rockdoc said) like for fancy cuts you really can''t go exclusively by numbers, or even idealscope images, and that one really needs to see the stones in person.  But then again, the selection is so much bigger...

So much to learn!

 

[WinkHPD]

RE: An interesting question is that when this does happen, and better stones appear due to the grading changes in AGS, what will happen as the information is learned by the consumer? Will the current traditionally proportioned stones get recut and re-certed, or will the prices on these drop or remain stable?
------------------------------------------------

Doc,

I don''t know the answer to the latter part of the above paragraph, but I know that at least one cutter is already preparing stones to be cut to the AGS 0 cut grade parameters, and that is Paul Antwerp. He has stones that he is ready to send to be graded at AGS as soon as the board authorizes the new grading parameters to be used on their certs.

I am also quite sure that he will not be the only one, and I well imagine some of the houses mentioned by Colored Gemstone Nut are either already doing so ar about to do so as well.

One can only hope that the arrival of some long over due standards will encourage some of the drek that is currently on the market to be recut to proportions that are at least pretty. With any luck at all some of the dark centered lifeless lumps of crystallized carbon will dissapear and nevermore darken the fingers of lovely ladies who deserve better!

Wink

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Taking a look at current pricing-levels, taking into account new AGS-grades, and comparing to price-levels of rounds, I have the following observations.

If we take a round stone of future AGS-grade 2, it has a certain price-level, which I will index at 100, to make comparisons easier.

Compared to that price-level, a round super-ideal will cost about 133.

Most of the current princess-cuts (more than 50%) will have an AGS cut-grade of 5 or lower, and their current price-level is around 70.

The best princess-cuts currently available will most probably have a cut-grade of 2 or 3 (some exceptions will be higher), and their current price-level is between 95 and 100, so slightly under the price of a similar cut-grade in rounds.

At this point in time, we look at an estimated price for the future AGS-0-princess cuts of around 125, so slightly lower than a similarly graded round stone.

That having said, I think that the price-structure looks logical, if we compare it to rounds. Of course, at this point in time, it is not so easy to find cut-grades of 5 or lower in rounds, and I think that in princesses, the low-quality-cuts will also be cut less. However, where in rounds, it is relatively easy to re-cut some lower cuts to a higher quality cut, in princess-cuts, this involves a much higher expertise, and always carries a higher loss in weight.

Now, in the trade, the use of the Rapaport-list might create a lot of confusion, because the list for princesses is a lot lower than that for rounds. This means that, even though rounds and princesses are priced similarly, in relation to their respective Rapaport-prices, the princess will seem more expensive, because it is compared to a lower figure. Any trader, who will not step away from the Rapaport-list for a second, will be very confused by the pricing of princesses, I think.

Live long,

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/21/2005 9:45:21 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Taking a look at current pricing-levels, taking into account new AGS-grades, and comparing to price-levels of rounds, I have the following observations.

If we take a round stone of future AGS-grade 2, it has a certain price-level, which I will index at 100, to make comparisons easier.

Compared to that price-level, a round super-ideal will cost about 133.

Most of the current princess-cuts (more than 50%) will have an AGS cut-grade of 5 or lower, and their current price-level is around 70.

The best princess-cuts currently available will most probably have a cut-grade of 2 or 3 (some exceptions will be higher), and their current price-level is between 95 and 100, so slightly under the price of a similar cut-grade in rounds.

At this point in time, we look at an estimated price for the future AGS-0-princess cuts of around 125, so slightly lower than a similarly graded round stone.

That having said, I think that the price-structure looks logical, if we compare it to rounds. Of course, at this point in time, it is not so easy to find cut-grades of 5 or lower in rounds, and I think that in princesses, the low-quality-cuts will also be cut less. However, where in rounds, it is relatively easy to re-cut some lower cuts to a higher quality cut, in princess-cuts, this involves a much higher expertise, and always carries a higher loss in weight.

Now, in the trade, the use of the Rapaport-list might create a lot of confusion, because the list for princesses is a lot lower than that for rounds. This means that, even though rounds and princesses are priced similarly, in relation to their respective Rapaport-prices, the princess will seem more expensive, because it is compared to a lower figure. Any trader, who will not step away from the Rapaport-list for a second, will be very confused by the pricing of princesses, I think.

Live long,

Say what?

Now my head hurts. Paul, just give it to me gently, are these some of the most fantastic sparkly square stones ever? If so, people will buy them. If they are just expensive versions of the same lifeless lumps of crystallized carbon that we see now, then it wont matter.

I want one here to look at! I want to see! Please. I have been waiting for a year now, I have been patient, I have been nice. Now you make my head hurt, talking about stepping away from the Rap.

Okay, deep breath. I put away my Rap...

Breathe.

Whew, I feel better now.

SEND ME ONE OF THE STONES ALREADY!

Wink Rapless

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Hey Wink,

Talking about something that makes your head hurt, here is an example.

The other day, we put one of our first AGS-0-princesses on the OGI. Now, this stone is as square as it can be, and extremely symmetrical.

This is what occurs in the OGI: at the point in time, when the stone is straight before the lens and the light, creating the shadow, the light is perpendicular to the girdle, goes into the stone, touches the girdle at the other side, still perpendicular, and exits there, in other words, the light just goes straight through the stone in the girdle area. The machine interprets this as the stone being two separate pieces, a separate crown and a separate pavilion with a layer of air in between, and it goes completely berzerk.

In a way, we are proud to create a stone that makes this machine go haywire, but we wonder how others will interpret this wonderful effect.

Regarding the long wait, we are waiting for AGS to start. You know that any delay is costing us.

Live long,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I have taken a liberty here that I do not think will get me into trouble because I have removed the table size from this chart. But Bill / Rocdoc, this is the problem with trying to "imagine" a good cut grade - we have been tought to think in too few dimensions.

We need 2 different crown angles and most especially we need 2 completely different pavilion angles in order to describe the optical potential for a square princess. If you throw in LxW then the equation becomes totally incomprehensable.

Now Roc one of your long time complaints about HCA is it ignores the minor facets. But the minor facets of a round are kind of locked together; the pavilion facets on a princess have way more latitude to vary. Check out the variance listed by AGS on the left side column - 10 degrees!!! A round with 99% lower girdles vs a round with 50% LG's - there is only 2 1/2 degrees difference - and they are small facets - these 4 princess minor facets are huge triangular things - nearly as big as the table.

 

[WinkHPD]

style="WIDTH: 101.84%; HEIGHT: 381px">Date: 2/21/2005 10:53:40 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Hey Wink,

Talking about something that makes your head hurt, here is an example.

The other day, we put one of our first AGS-0-princesses on the OGI. Now, this stone is as square as it can be, and extremely symmetrical.

This is what occurs in the OGI: at the point in time, when the stone is straight before the lens and the light, creating the shadow, the light is perpendicular to the girdle, goes into the stone, touches the girdle at the other side, still perpendicular, and exits there, in other words, the light just goes straight through the stone in the girdle area. The machine interprets this as the stone being two separate pieces, a separate crown and a separate pavilion with a layer of air in between, and it goes completely berzerk.

In a way, we are proud to create a stone that makes this machine go haywire, but we wonder how others will interpret this wonderful effect.

Regarding the long wait, we are waiting for AGS to start. You know that any delay is costing us.

Live long,

Ooh, ooh, ooh, I can see the new super tension fit rings now. Just slide the bar a little ways into the void and your diamond will be super secure forever. I will take some of those two part stones, the design possibilities are endless...

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/21/2005 12:34:16 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
I have taken a liberty here that I do not think will get me into trouble because I have removed the table size from this chart. But Bill / Rocdoc, this is the problem with trying to ''imagine'' a good cut grade - we have been tought to think in too few dimensions.

We need 2 different crown angles and most especially we need 2 completely different pavilion angles in order to describe the optical potential for a square princess. If you throw in LxW then the equation becomes totally incomprehensable.

Now Roc one of your long time complaints about HCA is it ignores the minor facets. But the minor facets of a round are kind of locked together; the pavilion facets on a princess have way more latitude to vary. Check out the variance listed by AGS on the left side column - 10 degrees!!! A round with 99% lower girdles vs a round with 50% LG''s - there is only 2 1/2 degrees difference - and they are small facets - these 4 princess minor facets are huge triangular things - nearly as big as the table.

Omigosh, now my head REALLY hurts...