PriceScope Guarantee Idea

[psadmin]

Dear Pricescopers,

Many people are afraid to buy online. Our forum has helped millions of people to buy great diamonds from our vetted jewelers at great prices for the most important events in their lives such as engagement, the birth of a daughter or son, wedding anniversaries. etc.

Due to the many business failures in the jewelry business, we are considering to provide Purchase Guarantee for customers buying from PriceScope Premier Sponsors.

We are confident in these companies as they have been vetted by us and time over time with consumers in our community, so we believe no one will ever need to use our Purchase Guarantee. Yet, we think this is something needed.

The goal is to protect the consumer from such unfortunate situations as what happened to the Enchanted Diamond consumers.

If a consumer is not satisfied with the product received and has difficulty rectifying the situation with the PriceScope Premier Sponsor, PriceScope will help to resolve the problem within X weeks or pay the consumer for the value of the transaction.

These are just initial thoughts and I would love to get your feedback about this program idea. Feel free to share any pros and cons with us as we wish to make this work for all.

 

[Rfisher]

What’s the difference between premier sponsor and featured sponsor?
Is your proposed purchase guaranty a separately bought feature or included automatically?
Is there any data that would support a belief of what percentage of enchanted diamond customers did research on PS at all before they ended up purchasing from enchanted diamonds?
I’m not sure how PS can protect (reimburse) consumers from a vendor filing bankruptcy /reorganization? Unless there was warnings blaring beforehand within the trade that folks knew of beforehand? And if it did happen to a premier sponsor - PS would terminate the sponsorship with fanfare?
Playing product /workmanship dispute mediator between your sponsor/vendor and consumer is kind of different?
I see the good intention.

 

[OoohShiny]

It's an interesting idea, thank you for raising it


Some quick thoughts from me (braindumping so disorganised!):

- what happens in a situation where a purchaser is actively attempting to defraud a vendor? (I'm thinking of @Wink's recent terrible experience.)

- what happens if, like ED, all seems to be fine up until date X - would the vendor be booted off the forum and no longer be a PS Premium Sponsor on that date X, in which case what would happen to buyers who buy on, say, date X or date X+1 who happened to not log-in to PS? Would they be covered if the vendor was no longer a Premium Sponsor at that point in time?

- what happens if, potentially, there is exposure to risk that runs to $millions? Would PS have the funds / insurance coverage for that situation?!


I doubt any PS Premium Sponsor would ever put buyers or the PS Admin in this sort of situation, so I understand the confidence but the future can contain many surprising events! lol

 

[marymm]

I know only a very few people who are afraid to buy online, and a third-party guarantee won't change their position.

Possibly I am mis-remembering, but Enchanted Diamonds wasn't a PS Sponsor, was it? And if PS would be guaranteeing only "Premier" Sponsors, it is unlikely there would be surprise bankruptcies/fraud/misrepresention, etc.

A buyer could be "dissatisfied" with a Premier Sponsor's product entirely due to buyer's remorse, the Premier Sponsor could rightly be reluctant to accept a return, so PS would intercede and pay out the customer?

Really, I can't see the "win" in this kind of program for PS, what am I missing?

 

[OoohShiny]

I know only a very few people who are afraid to buy online, and a third-party guarantee won't change their position.

Possibly I am mis-remembering, but Enchanted Diamonds wasn't a PS Sponsor, was it? And if PS would be guaranteeing only "Premier" Sponsors, it is unlikely there would be surprise bankruptcies/fraud/misrepresention, etc.

A buyer could be "dissatisfied" with a Premier Sponsor's product entirely due to buyer's remorse, the Premier Sponsor could rightly be reluctant to accept a return, so PS would intercede and pay out the customer?

Really, I can't see the "win" in this kind of program for PS, what am I missing?

In this situation, would the purchaser get to keep the product and get a refund??!

 

[denverappraiser]

Customers who use a credit card have something of a guarantee against this exact situation. It costs about 2-3% of the transaction price. This is backed by the credibility of some very large banks. Would the PS guarantee be backed by anyone other than PS and the vendor and would there be any sort of fee associated with it for the consumer, either directly or buried as a percentage of the transaction?

 

[the_mother_thing]

On the surface, this seems like a nice ‘assurance’ for buyers, especially in light of the recent Enchanted Diamonds debacle. And I appreciate and respect the vendors who support & participate on PS.

But I’ll be honest; I feel like this kind of takes some of the ‘unbiased’ nature of PS away from consumers, even if it’s only in appearances. One of the reasons I (and assume others) appreciate PS is that it really seems/feels like it’s all about consumer & education. If PS were to take on the role of acting as some sort of ‘go-between’ for consumers & vendors, and the vendor is paying PS for advertising/promotion, then it’s reasonable - as a consumer - to wonder if PS would be acting in fairness unless it is a clear-cut, no-questions-asked “we got your back no matter what” sort of guarantee. And even then, from a business perspective, that seems to be an AWFUL big risk to take on. Again, I have no personal beef with any of the regular vendors here, but: 1) you never know behind the scenes which one is the next ‘Enchanted Diamonds’ if you don’t have direct insight to their operating model/business practices; and 2) there are more ‘issues’ with vendors (even some who advertise on PS) than I think is/are known on here simply because not everyone who posts on PS actually posts those negative experiences for whatever reasons.

So, I guess I’d say ‘tread carefully’, and thank you for suggesting a service that does appear to be of benefit to PS members who patronize PS vendors.

 

[Karl_K]

What the_mother_thing said!
Thank you for saving me some typing you sum up my thoughts as well.

Traditionally PS forum has had no direct stake in sales and I like it that way.

 

[LLJsmom]

Be very careful of getting into the insurance business. I think even setting up a pricing structure that could be profitable would be very challenging.

And as @the_mother_thing said, it possibly muddies the water about PS's lack of bias.

However, I do applaud and respect the intention of PS and your proactively considering ideas to protect the consumer.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Be very careful of getting into the insurance business.

Ditto; I’d also be concerned about potential legal risk in the event a business does ‘go-ED’, and being implicated legally in those woes should a class action suit be filed. I am sure PS has some smart legal folks on the payroll somewhere/how, and in theory this seems well intentioned.

It just seems like the best thing that can be done to/for consumers is to encourage/educate them about making smart diamond-buying decisions, and let them be responsible for their choices/actions, to include researching vendors, not paying via wire, awareness of vendor policies, etc.

 

[Jujeh]

Maybe I'm dumb but I can't see how this would be possible from a business standpoint.

Diamonds ain't cheap, as we all know. A single large stone that is not uncommon on this board could be $50k+. What business would want to take on that liability? Let alone if an entire company failed?

It seems unlikely that a stable business like Whiteflash or whoever would go out of business, but who knows. There's no way for you to know the chances unless you have access to their financial information ...

 

[LLJsmom]

@the_mother_thing just posted a thread about a "relatively" new vendor Parcel and Stone.

I wonder if there is a way to encourage more people to post reviews more promptly? Maybe even create separate sticky threads for reviews for each vendor we see on PS? I don't know. I'm just trying to think of ways that if something goes south, people will have a chance to share earlier, and other potential buyers will have a chance to find out earlier.

 

[the_mother_thing]

And what happens if/when a consumer has to leverage this ‘arbitration’ service? Are they allowed to still post about the experience on PS? Do they have to ‘remain silent’ during negotiations? What about after? What about on other sites? Or if they post about what they think was a negative experience, do they lose this ‘benefit’?

Normally, I am very ‘pro-consumer’, and even so in this case. But at the same time, consumers must be personally accountable for their choices, even when those choices produce negative results to no fault of their own. It’s not PS’s fault that there is a breakdown in communication between a vendor and consumer. Let them work it out if/as needed. Forgive the expressions, but the more I think about this, it’s almost like ‘helicopter diamond buying” vs. parenting. It’s incumbent on us as consumers to do our due diligence, ask questions, do our research, etc. And if we make a mistake along the way, well, that’s how we learn most things in life. Diamond buying is no different, just generally pricier.

To want to ‘take that on’ is admirable, but feel like it could potentially change the dynamic and spirit of PS, not to mention have PS take on a lot of unnecessary risk. Maybe that’s what PS’s owners want; not sure, and not my call. I just don’t think it’s a great idea. I think there are other things we CAN do as a community to more easily help consumers make smart buying decisions - whether it’s from a PS vendor, a “maul” jeweler, or their ‘friend’ the diamond broker who is gonna give them a supposedly smokin’ hot deal on a diamond. But PS can do that without putting itself in the middle of a transaction it did not directly solicit.

For example, one of the challenges I see for new consumers is that there is a TON of information on this forum, but it takes a long time to sift through and find the ‘good stuff’. Maybe we can help create a “diamond buying guide” that is not vendor specific, but one ‘thing/article/sticky thread’ with all of the pertinent information a new consumer should know about when shopping for a diamond/ring. Limit the commentary, kudos, and back and forth banter, and just limit it to ‘need to know’ stuff. And when a newbie comes on asking if this XYZ diamond is a good buy, and several of us - even if just to ourselves - go we can instead say “read this thread first, then let’s help you find some options and make smart buying choices.” When a consumer comes to the Colored Stone forum and thinks they have/want an alexandrite, someone points them to a thread titled “So you think you have/want to buy an alexandrite” (or something like that). It’s ONE thread with ALL the critical info they need to know about that particular experience. Kinda like that ... but for diamonds ... MRBs, step cuts, ovals, etc. maybe a thread/article for each shape?

That would be my recommendation - stick to/improve upon the consumer education angle, provide information, etc., but at the end of the day, let people making what should be adult decisions be responsible/accountable for their decisions.

 

[the_mother_thing]

A thought occurred to me this morning. Of those who have had an ‘issue’ with a vendor who is also a supporter/advertiser/member of PS - and that consumer posted about the issue on here - I seem to recall in almost all cases that vendor (in the end) ‘making it right’. I know in one or two cases, when I see a consumer post about frustrations trying to resolve an issue with a vendor, I’ll tag that vendor to call their attention to it. THAT is powerful to help get resolution for a consumer. Granted, some vendors are better than others in how they respond to the matter on PS, but in almost all cases it seems to be resolved once the vendor’s PS ‘face’ gets involved.

I’m not saying people should just start dumping issues on PS willy nilly - they should always start with the vendor to try to resolve it. But if they tried that and get nowhere (like the case with the one guy who’s JA ER was resold before he was given the option to get it reset, and he tried every means possible to contact the mgmt of JA to include via LinkedIn), then maybe we should encourage more posting of issues on PS to help that person, ‘tag’ the vendor, and get them on the path to resolution that way. I’m not advocating ‘public shaming’; however, sometimes a little ‘bad publicity’ is helpful to get a vendor’s awareness of a problem and/or remind them that there is strength in the consumer community to encourage them to act ethically/fairly in cases they may not be or to address customer service/quality control issues they may be too far up the chain/removed from to know they even exist. So this approach - albeit perhaps ‘uncomfortable’ for the vendor - is actually beneficial to their business if they truly aim to provide good customer service.

IMO the true ‘power’ of PS lies in the extensive information/knowledge base & sharing among trade & consumers, and that it’s consumer-focused while supported by trade. I equate that with a group of vendors who are supportive of transparency to the consumer. If you change or take either one of those away, the true spirit of PS may be lost.

 

[the_mother_thing]

@the_mother_thing just posted a thread about a "relatively" new vendor Parcel and Stone.

I wonder if there is a way to encourage more people to post reviews more promptly? Maybe even create separate sticky threads for reviews for each vendor we see on PS? I don't know. I'm just trying to think of ways that if something goes south, people will have a chance to share earlier, and other potential buyers will have a chance to find out earlier.

I really like this idea ... maybe a ‘sticky folder’ in Rocky Talky with a thread for each PS vendor. And consumers can be encouraged to add their experience in that respective vendor’s thread (but limit the replies with praise/kudos; just the consumer review), and include a link to their own RT/SMTB threads for other consumers’ reference.

 

[arkieb1]

Where it falls down is people like Leon used to pay to advertise on this site (no idea if he still does). He literally held more than one couple's diamond hostage, and refused to give it back to them. He also did that to a diamond I sent him albeit a number of years ago now. That isn't good or ethical business, yet at the time he continued to advertise here.

The site works because we independently recommend trusted vendors, some of them advertise here some do not. It starts to fail when it ceases to become independent, because the site would have vested interests in whom they recommend. The site itself would become a shill for certain companies.

People buy diamonds because we the customers recommend them, because of good service, and because of outstanding cuts, because of competitive pricing and so on.... Why on earth would you want to change that.

 

[AV_]

.

I do take it for granted that eggregious advertiser behaviour does terminate their partnership with you @psadmin - as has already been the case with ED who lost your trust before any notice from distressed buyers came in (much that I can tell.)

 

[oldminer]

I understand the helpful motivation behind volunteering to provide additional customer assurance, but with the quality of vendors here on Pricescope, consumers are already dealing with most of the best possible sources. It has been my privilege to occasionally act as a mediator or intermediary in some of the painful issues that have cropped up between vendors and consumers. My belief is that every one of these issues was straightened out to the reasonable satisfaction of the consumer. It may have left a vendor or two not totally happy, but that is the price firms pay for doing retail business. The occasional consumer wins a tiny bit and feels justice was served. In a sense, that's not terrible advertising, either.

Likely, I'm not the only expert who has been involved in putting out little fires before they get out of control. No single individual can be a perfect fit for the wide range of disputes that have happened. Some happen quietly and in relative secrecy, while others get broad coverage in the forums. Consumers should know that resources to bring experienced reason to problem settlement are found within the expertise available on Pricescope. To date, the costs of such examination and rendering of observations and opinions have been borne by the vendors. Most of the other costs associated with settlements have also been absorbed by these vendors. You can shop on hundreds of websites, but only a very few have such a wealth of outstanding experts ready to assist both the trade and the consuming public in closing out disputes by taking care of the problem instead of ignoring it.

In many ways, Pricescope offers an almost perfect and secure buying experience already. The behind the scenes ability to enlist objective expertise to further examine and determine a proper and fair course of action makes it highly unlikely that there is a real need for more assurance.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Had I never stumbled upon PS, I could have ‘bought into’ this example vendor’s description to the tune of $20k+ and likely been stuck with one helluva diamond dud. Being on PS & leveraging all it offers helps me proactively make good buying choices so I don’t need to engage reactive services such as those @oldminer shared above. THAT is the beauty of PS ... as-is.

 

[Rockdiamond]

It's a very noble thought and idea!
But isn't PS already doing just that?
If we look back at the Enchanted situation- if you re-read that thread, it was pretty clear back in 2016 there was some pretty sketchy stuff going on.
That thread - and many others like it- are what makes this site so valuable to consumers.
I agree with others who've expressed considerations about PS trying to take a more active role- you're already providing a valuable service!

 

[bludiva]

It's a good thought but a big liability with a lot of factors outside of Pricescope's control. Creating a new review system that is more quantifiable or searchable could help. Right now you have to do a lot of searching and scrolling to understand the general perceptions of various vendors.

 

[LLJsmom]

It's a good thought but a big liability with a lot of factors outside of Pricescope's control. Creating a new review system that is more quantifiable or searchable could help. Right now you have to do a lot of searching and scrolling to understand the general perceptions of various vendors.

Yes. Maybe adding more structure and organization to the information already on PS would be helpful.

 

[yennyfire]

I love the idea of a sticky topic with one thread dedicated to each vendor. People can post both the positive and negative in one place. I know that we have PS Testimonials, but honestly, when I first joined, PS and all of its forums were overwhelming and I never came across that tab.

Maybe we (PS members) can also do a better job of directing newbies there so they can make decisions about which vendors they want to work with based, on part, on that feedback.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I agree with several posters who say that some type of purchase protection or pricescope guarantee is a noble goal. It is certainly worth exploring the idea. It could add to the value of pricescope membership and also attract new vendors and contributors.

As someone also pointed out, the extent of the potential liability (worst case scenario) would require pricescope to have the backing of a financial institution or insurance company.

At this point in the history of e-commerce still only a small portion of the diamond buying public feel fully comfortable buying online. This is caused largely by the fear of finding yourself a victim such as those folks who paid ED and did not get their diamonds. If you can fully remove that fear, a big piece of the diamond buying pie becomes accessible. The size of this opportunity across all big ticket e-commerce should be VERY interesting to a number entities to try to figure out, and it would certainly benefit a huge number of consumers.

As has been noted in many comments, the 'terms and conditions' of any such guarantee will have to be clearly delineated. This should not come into play for garden variety customer service issues. It's more of a 'catastrophic' policy in that sense.

As a poster noted above, paying by credit card provides consumers with recourse against fraud, although many consumers probably don't fully appreciate the power they have in that regard. The greatest exposure is when they wire.

So perhaps a first-step would be to try to develop a plan for wire transactions - situations where the consumer has limited recourse in the case of a merchant default.

It would be interesting to hear from folks with legal expertise such as @MollyMalone or people in the insurance industry.

 

[prs]

Let's assume for a moment that Company X is a PS Premier Sponsor and that Company X suddenly ceases trading and declares bankruptcy with no advance warning. Let's also assume that approx 250 people have paid an average of $10,000 for diamonds they have not received.

Is PS going to reimburse all 250 people for a total pay out of $2.5 million, or is PS only going to reimburse active PS members? How will PS determine if a member is active? etc etc etc

Nice idea but costly and administrative nightmare in the making, not forgetting the legal costs that will inevitably follow. Company X could well take PS down with it!!

 

[TreeScientist]

Be very careful of getting into the insurance business. I think even setting up a pricing structure that could be profitable would be very challenging.

Exactly. There's a reason that top actuaries are among the highest paid professionals in the world (even surpassing many medical specialties): Because there's an incredible amount of risk riding on their decisions, and it takes nearly a decade of rigorous training to even begin to understand how to rationally develop a pricing structure for insurances.

It's a nice thought, but I echo what @the_mother_thing and @Karl_K have already stated: I like that PriceScope is a (relatively) unbiased platform for sharing knowledge and experiences, and I hope it remains that way.

 

[Dancing Fire]

These are just initial thoughts and I would love to get your feedback about this program idea. Feel free to share any pros and cons with us as we wish to make this work for all.

Andrey, I think you are asking for trouble!..

 

[distracts]

Even just reading this post makes me nervous. I think there are too many ways it could go wrong.

That would be my recommendation - stick to/improve upon the consumer education angle, provide information, etc., but at the end of the day, let people making what should be adult decisions be responsible/accountable for their decisions.

I really like this idea ... maybe a ‘sticky folder’ in Rocky Talky with a thread for each PS vendor. And consumers can be encouraged to add their experience in that respective vendor’s thread (but limit the replies with praise/kudos; just the consumer review), and include a link to their own RT/SMTB threads for other consumers’ reference.

Ditto these things. I've often wished there was an easier way to find information on vendors... even improving the search would make things a lot better. Just as an example, I was mostly inactive for several years, came back and can't figure out what is going on with GOG, Rhino, and August Vintage. Does Rhino run both now? Did he sell GOG? Why can't GOG call in August Vintage diamonds to view? Can I even go somewhere to view August Vintage Inc stones in person? Like a single paragraph at the top of a thread where all reviews for one of those vendors or the other go, explaining the history there and whatnot, would be immensely helpful. I'm a regular (lapsed regular?) and I can't even figure out the search well enough to see if that info has been covered or to see people's current opinions on those two vendors. I'd have to make a new thread to ask.

So threads about often recommended vendors, with a couple paragraphs of PS-vetted information about their history, location, if you can go in person (since that's something that makes a lot of people trust them more), what they offer, what forum members like them for, strengths/weaknesses/etc in the first post, then reviews consolidated to that thread, would be really useful.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I didn't read every post. My thoughts are that while I know it is coming from a true desire to help consumers, I don't think it is necessary. You already screen vendors and do not accept or drop those that you feel are not reliable in some way. You all figured out the problem with ED years ago. I experienced recommending great stones from them because the person was looking there, and every time the stones were not available (since they didn't even have the rights to posting the stones)! Generally when someone asks about a diamond from an unknown vendor, someone here will steer them to ones that we know has a good repuation. I have confidence in the most often recommended vendors on PS. I don't know much about some of the lesser used ones and generally don't use or recommend them because of that. As others have said, there is credit card protection and appraisers when the vendor is questionable. Ultimately, it's the consumer's responsibility to do the research. Really cheap prices sometimes carry dangers and people need to realize that.

Bottom line, PS is already the best consumer site for buying diamonds and jewelry. I don't think you need to do a single thing other than have in fine print in your terms of joining the site that you are not liable for a deal gone bad to protect yourself!

 

[metall]

This sounds like a kettle of boiling water. If PS started offering all these guarantees, then PS starts taking on more liabilities and will become an invested party with each and every diamond selection.

No longer will PS'ers offering good solid advice be uninterested 3rd parties with a love of bling, PS'ers offering their opinions will just be another pushy sales associate for a XYZ gem company and PS collab sale.