Please help! potentially unique offer - what do you think of this diamond?

[simurgh]

hi!

A long time lurker for all the incredible info and pics, but first time poster (I''m newly engaged!!). Fiance and I are looking for an e-ring and would love some advice.

Some background:
After all the pricescope reading, we''ve been looking for a G/H, ideal, eye clean, round brilliant or cushion. I''m not sure of the size (probably around 2-2.2 carats, but fiance is taking care of it so it would be a surprise).

Fiance and I are a little color sensitive, so G/H is as low as we''d go.

On the cut, our brilliance appreciation is high, but maxes out around AGS0 in terms of what we''re willing to pay for.

I know this isn''t a common opinion here, but I actually like the idea of the hpht diamonds - for me, the value of the diamond is in what it looks like and (because it''s for an engagement ring) the durability (I want it to last forever! so something like crack filling wouldn''t be appealing). Given that, and the lower price (if you''re not paying for a brand like Bellataire) it seems fun to look at something substantially larger in an hpht.

The situation:
A jeweler that I trust (but that doesn''t normally deal in many diamonds, so isn''t a huge source of advice) has what looks like an unusual diamond (large hpht). I have the GIA cert and pic and am trying to figure out if it should be a contender (unfortunately can''t post them, but will try for pics I can).

The specs:
I''m going to try to post the specs here but don''t know the terminology, so please let me know if I''ve messed something up and I''ll repost.

3.20 carats, round brilliant, G (hpht and inscribed as such)
VS2 (single crystal in "second" row of facets back from the table)
cut: very good
table?: 57% (then to the side it says 50%)
something that looks like half the width (from edge of girdle to vertical up from the culet)?: 85%
angle of girdle to top: 31.5 degrees
angle of girdle to bottom: 41.2 degrees
height (depth?): there are three numbers: 60.7%, 43.5%, 13.5%
girdle: thin to slightly thick
culet - none
size: 9.53-9.59 x 5.80mm
polish good
symmetry good
fluor none

Some questions:
- what do you think of the diamond?
- what''s a good price?
- where could I look for other hpht diamonds if this isn''t it?

Any and all thoughts would be hugely appreciated - many thanks for your help!

 

[stebbo]

Smart choice. Seems absolutely perfect all-round from how I interpret your priorities.

Not bad proportions. The polish and symmetry look to have penalized an otherwise GIA Ex. Just outside AGS-0 range however.

Lot of bling-for-the-buck if priced appropriately.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 11/29/2007 6:36:57 AM
Author:simurgh


hi!

A long time lurker for all the incredible info and pics, but first time poster (I'm newly engaged!!). Fiance and I are looking for an e-ring and would love some advice.

Some background:
After all the pricescope reading, we've been looking for a G/H, ideal, eye clean, round brilliant or cushion. I'm not sure of the size (probably around 2-2.2 carats, but fiance is taking care of it so it would be a surprise).

Fiance and I are a little color sensitive, so G/H is as low as we'd go.

On the cut, our brilliance appreciation is high, but maxes out around AGS0 in terms of what we're willing to pay for.

I know this isn't a common opinion here, but I actually like the idea of the hpht diamonds - for me, the value of the diamond is in what it looks like and (because it's for an engagement ring) the durability (I want it to last forever! so something like crack filling wouldn't be appealing). Given that, and the lower price (if you're not paying for a brand like Bellataire) it seems fun to look at something substantially larger in an hpht.

The situation:
A jeweler that I trust (but that doesn't normally deal in many diamonds, so isn't a huge source of advice) has what looks like an unusual diamond (large hpht). I have the GIA cert and pic and am trying to figure out if it should be a contender (unfortunately can't post them, but will try for pics I can).

When you say brilliance, do you mean a very bright, firey diamond? I ask, because with this combination of crown and pavillion angles, it will be geared towards white light return, low on fire. And to be honest, I wouldn't want this combo myself. I know you can do better. Also, Good Symmetry and Polish are not Ideal specs either (shoot for at least Very Good), and you mentioned you were looking for an "Ideal" cut.


I would suggest reading the tutorial section up at the top under knowlege, so you can get aquainted with things, and know what to look for.

If you are really wanting an Ideal cut, you can plug your numbers into this tool. Ideally, you want a score of 2 or below, and the x to fall inside AGS territory, or close to. If you plug the numbers from this stone your talking about in, you'll see how far out there it is. After you get a decent score, then proceed to get more info, this should be used only as an eliminator of not so hot stones.

http://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp

 

[simurgh]

Hi -
Stebbo, thanks for your comments! That''s why we were excited - the tradeoffs seemed pretty good for us. You''re right on the symmetry and polish ... I''m not sure how big of a deal they are. The description on the cut advisor mentions that cuts with good proportions are less prone to problems from lack of symmetry.

Is there anything in particular I can look for to see how much the symmetry and polish affect things when I see it in person? I likely won''t have something similar to compare it to.

Also, any idea if a recut or repolish would help things?

thanks!

 

[simurgh]

Hi Ellen,

Thanks for the comments! That''s a great question about brilliance. I like the look of both white light and fire, so probably meant the total amount of both/either.

The tutorial and cut advisor was really helpful - it actually falls within the GIA excellent range - it''s the symmetry and polish that seem to be the problems. We were looking for an ideal cut to ensure there was enough "sparkle" (of whatever color). I''m not sure if there''s any way to get a handle on how much the symmetry/polish will affect that - any suggestions would be great.

Any idea if a recut or repolish are options?

thank you!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 11/29/2007 5:03:10 PM
Author: simurgh
Hi Ellen,

Thanks for the comments! That''s a great question about brilliance. I like the look of both white light and fire, so probably meant the total amount of both/either.

The tutorial and cut advisor was really helpful - it actually falls within the GIA excellent range - it''s the symmetry and polish that seem to be the problems. We were looking for an ideal cut to ensure there was enough ''sparkle'' (of whatever color). I''m not sure if there''s any way to get a handle on how much the symmetry/polish will affect that - any suggestions would be great.

Any idea if a recut or repolish are options?

thank you!

True, but many of us believe GIA has been a tad too lenient on the Ex grade. They are not all created equal.

The crown angle would be a problem too, if you are wanting a stone with a nice mix of white light and fire. That crown angle is not gonna make it happen. You ideally want around 34-35, with a complimenting pavillion angle.


Polishing won''t do anything. As for recutting, I''ll let the experts handle that one on whether it is worth it. Hopefully one will chime in soon.

 

[stebbo]

Date: 11/29/2007 5:03:10 PM
Author: simurgh
Hi Ellen,

Thanks for the comments! That's a great question about brilliance. I like the look of both white light and fire, so probably meant the total amount of both/either.

The tutorial and cut advisor was really helpful - it actually falls within the GIA excellent range - it's the symmetry and polish that seem to be the problems. We were looking for an ideal cut to ensure there was enough 'sparkle' (of whatever color). I'm not sure if there's any way to get a handle on how much the symmetry/polish will affect that - any suggestions would be great.

Any idea if a recut or repolish are options?

thank you!

The HCA warning about symmetry variations refers to how close the 8 pavilion and 8 crown angles are to their averages that you plug in.

The symmetry grade however reports irregularities visible through a loupe. Although erratic angles may manifest visible irregulaties, the reverse is not necessarily true. The table maybe tilted, there may be extra or missing facets, facets might not meet perfectly... and these may have little effect on performance.

 

[stebbo]

Date: 11/29/2007 6:12:39 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 11/29/2007 5:03:10 PM
Author: simurgh
Hi Ellen,

...
Any idea if a recut or repolish are options?

thank you!

...

Polishing won't do anything.

How about polishing (

) the crown to 34 deg thinning the girdle to about 1%, table untouched, take a smidgen off the pavilion to get it under 41.2 and you've got an AGS-0 contender! Sacrifice of about 5-6 points. Well maybe in theory!

 

[simurgh]

Date: 11/29/2007 11:49:05 PM
Author: stebbo


How about polishing (

) the crown to 34 deg thinning the girdle to about 1%, table untouched, take a smidgen off the pavilion to get it under 41.2 and you''ve got an AGS-0 contender! Sacrifice of about 5-6 points. Well maybe in theory!

Hi Stebbo & Ellen,

Thanks again. This is an interesting idea - the girdle goes from thin to slightly thick - would that allow this? Is there an expert (cutter?) who could weigh in?


Also, I''m headed into see the stone today - I''ll post what it looks like in person!

Many thanks!

 

[Jenna51580gr]

What is exactly an HPHT diamond?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/2/2007 10:16:08 AM
Author: Jenna51580gr
What is exactly an HPHT diamond?

Jenna, see this thread for information about high pressure high temperature - treated diamonds.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/hpht-diamonds.64242/

 

[Jenna51580gr]

Thank you so much for the link about HPHT diamonds I thought it was a treated diamond. I was always told to avoid them. Are they much cheaper than regular diamonds? Can you wear them everyday?

 

[simurgh]

Hi all -

So I saw the stone. Ellen, as you predicted, mostly white light return and not much fire! Also, it wasn't very sparkly. Either of those wouldn't be so bad, but I also spoke to two appraisers/certifiers? (not sure what they're called) - one GIA and one GemScan, and a couple of dealers.

The short version of the story is there are two big deal breakers:

1. the stones are nearly impossible to resell i(f disclosed as hpht, which of course I would do, and it's inscribed as hpht anyhow). None of the dealers I spoke to would buy them ... even though they didn't all know exactly what hpht was, there is a big stigma against it

2. the value is completely unclear/changing - I've seen discounts to natural diamonds from 20% off to 60% (!!!) off - I would hate to buy it for one end of that and have the value settle at the other end (though there might be some bargains at the 60% off end, but this wasn't one of them)

As well, labs are increasingly able to check for hpht, so knowledge of hpht (and then potentially the stigma) may increase.

So, I'm going to keep looking .... thank you for your help!


****
edited to fix typo

 

[simurgh]

Hi Jenna -
They''re heat-treated and pressure-treated diamonds (the treatment improves the color grade). They can be worn everyday. It''s hard to tell if they''re cheaper (prices are all over the map), but what I''ve found is that people are not very willing to pay for them. They''re also a little uncommon - only 1-2% of all diamonds respond to this treatment, and only a portion of those are actually treated.

 

[Nicrez]

Simurgh, sorry about your diamond, but sometimes if it's too good to be true, it may just be...

They will be much cheaper, as EGL now has some sort of pricelist...EGL HPHT Diamond Pricelist

Date: 12/3/2007 1:30:34 PM
Author: simurgh
Hi Jenna -
They're heat-treated and pressure-treated diamonds (the treatment improves the color grade). They can be worn everyday. It's hard to tell if they're cheaper (prices are all over the map), but what I've found is that people are not very willing to pay for them. They're also a little uncommon - only 1-2% of all diamonds respond to this treatment, and only a portion of those are actually treated.

Warning: Technical jargon!

The D's I have seen are usually suspect when they are Type II, and if someone has a good eye, a large D would be suspect. (knowing a Type II A is next to impossible without tests, but some graders claim there are certain inlcusions in a Type II A that make it obvious to them...can't say I have that skill).

I think as of now only Type II A (virtually Nitrogen-free type stones) stones can be HPHT treated, because what colors a Type II A stone is structural imperfections in the molecular arrangement and not nitrogen impurities within the molecular structures. Nitrogen can not be removed, but with pressure and heat at tremendous levels, the structural imperfections can be "shocked" back into proper form, thus creating a diamond "as nature intended" molecualr-wise, according to Belletair and other treaters of stones.

FTC requires that these stones be states as such, sold as such and MUST BE INSCRIBED to be legally sold. I believe that they are inscribed as “GE POL", "IRRADIATED" or "HPHT PROCESSED". GIA will include on the certificate “HPHT Annealed” or "Artificially Irradiated" in their GIA reports. They can be detected by several processes. I have seen mostly D's, not G's, so that's new to me...

The various gemological tests including high magnification, X-rays such as radiography, diffraction or fluorescence, and because they are radiated, even a Geiger Counter, or photoluminescence or Infrared (like ultra-sensitive white light) or UV absorption spectroscopy, which shows the mass of hydrogen in the stones, which would be higher in HPHT and CVD (Carbon Vapor Deposition) or artificailly created diamonds in a Hydrogen rich environment with high pressure and high temperature, like HPHT treated stones. Hydrogen is needed to facilitate Carbon atoms to bond, and restructure, thus "repairing" the structural anomolies. If it has more Hydrogen and if the structure of the carbon atoms is heavier with Hydrogen, this is a give-away that the stone has been in a HPHT environment. As of now CVD (lab-created diamonds) are still small. So larger stones are ruled out to be lab-created, but they are then tested for HPHT processes if the stone is Type II A, and found to be hydrogen rich.

*Note: Type II A D color stone can also be a GOOD thing. These stones are so rare that they are tested for "Golconda" origin, meaning many many years ago, in the Golconda region of India, some of the purest most rare D color diamonds were mined and never found in newer mines. These stones are found in antique pieces, and a Type II A D color diamond with Certification of no treatment will go thousands to hundred of thousands of dollars higher than a regular diamond.

I hope that explains a little bit of the process, abbreviated as it is.