Please Help Me Find a 3C Cushion!

[chrisan]

Hi Experts, Newbie here. My fiance and I are looking for an ~3 carat rectangular Modern faceted cushion (L/W ratio ~ 1.15), F/G/H color, VS 2 (or eye clean) for around $40,000. Is that a reasonable budget? Where should we start looking for a loose diamond? Thanks in advance!

 

[Niel]

I am not sure about the center of this one, but id get more information.

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/3.01-carat-h-color-vs2-clarity-sku-176996

 

[chrisan]

Thanks Niel! I'll check out James Allen. As to that particular diamond, its beautiful but we're looking for a more rectangular cushion- not square. Thanks.

 

[SB621]

check with ERD. I always think they have the best selection of cushions.

 

[Boatluvr]

Here's a couple more possibilities - the 'G' is pretty pricey which is why I went down to an 'I'.

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/?CaratFrom=3.04&CaratTo=3.40&Color=F,G,H,I&Clarity=VS2,VS1&PriceFrom=400&PriceTo=999000&Sort=Carat%20asc,%20DefaultOrder&TabSelected=3&DiamondID=230600,29900,170005

 

[chrisan]

Thank you SB621 and Boatluver. I'm pretty color sensitive and can definitely see the warmth in even a G. The lowest is probably an H color- although it'll vary how it's cut as well.

I found a couple that fit within my criteria on James Allen:

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/2.90-carat-f-color-vs2-clarity-sku-147897
and
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/3.01-carat-h-color-vs2-clarity-sku-107987

What do you think?

 

[Gypsy]

Thank you SB621 and Boatluver. I'm pretty color sensitive and can definitely see the warmth in even a G. The lowest is probably an H color- although it'll vary how it's cut as well.

I found a couple that fit within my criteria on James Allen:

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/2.90-carat-f-color-vs2-clarity-sku-147897
and
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/3.01-carat-h-color-vs2-clarity-sku-107987

What do you think?

Nope. I'll search for you later today.

 

[Gypsy]

Ok so the pickings are slim in the H or better and eyeclean and 40k and under range and 2.6 carats or better. .

This is the nicest 3 carat H or better and eyeclean cushion at JA, and it is over budget by a lot: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/3.26-carat-h-color-vs1-clarity-sku-165665 8 main cushion and gorgeous.


THIS is the second nicest cushion, and it is a BEAUTY: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/3.21-carat-i-color-vs1-clarity-sku-165668 it ticks most of your boxes. But it is an I color. Which in my opinion is perfectly white when well cut (and this one is). Especially given the performance that this one is going to have.

And "I" with excellent light performance will out white a G with poor performance, like the ones you picked above. I understand you are saying that you are color sensitive. But I don't know the quality of the stones you have been looking at. And also, whether you've seen the diamonds set. I is still definitely white as long as you are talking great performance. You should understand that the color you see when a stone is unset and you can look at it from all angles (including face down, which is how they are graded for color) and compare it next to other diamonds is not the same as when the stone is set and on the hand.

I would buy that "I" over ANY other cushion in JA's inventory at 2.6 or better carats and under 40K. I promise you that.

However here is another choice: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/3.01-carat-h-color-vs2-clarity-sku-176996 Antique faceted and has some potential. H color and under budget. Yes, I would take the I over this one, but if you are going to be stubborn about color, then this is the second best choice.

And here is a second. It ticks all your boxes but is a 2.7 carat stone. http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/2.70-carat-g-color-vs2-clarity-sku-209767 I don't like some of the facets I see under the table. But it is a better than average stone, and may ASET out well. We'd have to see.

And here is a third option: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/2.72-carat-g-color-vs2-clarity-sku-168719 Also 2.7 but it has a lot of potential. Possibly even more than the one directly above.


IF IT WERE ME:

I'd put these on hold:

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/3.21-carat-i-color-vs1-clarity-sku-165668
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/2.72-carat-g-color-vs2-clarity-sku-168719

And one of these:
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/2.70-carat-g-color-vs2-clarity-sku-209767
or
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/3.01-carat-h-color-vs2-clarity-sku-176996

And then I'd ask for ASET images and the gemologist's opinion on each stone.

Then you can see where to go from there.

 

[chrisan]

Wow Gypsy! Thank you. It's a lot to think about. I'm definitely interested in your recommendation for the 3.21 I-VS1. We're just in the beginning stages and a little nervous about reserving or holding a stone- is it likely to be sold very quickly? It's just we have an appointment to see ERD on Friday and want to do our research for at least a week. The one you suggested, it's the best of the options at James Allen, but in your experience, it as one of the best anywhere? Don't want to settle, but also don't want to lose out on something very special! We're pretty flexible on timing. Would love to have a ring by April, but it's more important to get the right one. Thank you again for all your work.

 

[Gypsy]

I would buy that I in a heartbeat. And I have access to ERD and GOG and Victor and BGD... so yes, I do think it is going to be one of the best stones anywhere for your budget

It's an 8 main cushion and a bright and lively one with excellent proportions (I know you don't know what an 8 main cushion, but I will post information for you on them in a minute).

AND if you are going to be in NY James Allen has offices in NY and you can make an appointment and have them bring that I in for you to see in PERSON, so you can see for yourself what you think of it. Which is best since you will be looking at the ERD stones in person. SO give them a call and get the ball rolling on that. And ask them to bring in a couple of the others I posted for you since you need a frame of reference and need to educate your eyes. Again, no cost, no obligation for this service.

As for being nervous about putting something on hold. It will take them 3 days to get you an ASET either way. And the hold is NO obligation, and no cost. So you have nothing to lose.

It's win win for you.

 

[Gypsy]

The challenge is that many diamond sellers aren't educated on cushion cuts. They wouldn't have any idea what you are talking about which is my experience. However, sellers like ERD and GOG have invested a lot of time looking at cushions ... which is why they are frequently recommended here. If I recall correctly, there is a branded modern cushion in the works - I don't know how long that will take but definetly something I would watch out for.

These are the non-modified cushion plots. When we talk about a 8 main modern cushion, we are talking about plots 3 -5. My favorites are 3 or 4.


Here are some real life examples but I find the photos aren't reflective of how they really look. I put this together many years ago so there are better photos examples now.

GOT that?

 

[Gypsy]

Now read STEP ONE of this Tutorial:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/cushion-101-my-experience-in-making-a-harry-winston-halo.183473/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/cushion-101-my-experience-in-making-a-harry-winston-halo.183473/[/URL]

VERY good primer on cushion cuts (though IMO you don't look at the numbers on cushions, just the performance) and then make sure it's not over deep or facing up small, and if it is... then that the price reflects that.

 

[chrisan]

Wow, you are amazing. I've emailed them for the hold and asked for ASET. I live close to midtown so I'll try to schedule an appointment to see the diamond within the week. A lot of reading in the meantime
Beautiful cat, BTW.

 

[Gypsy]

On color:

It is important to remember is that color is graded FACE DOWN. Where there is NO light return. Not face up where there is light return and refraction. You wear diamonds set. FACE UP.

Within one color grade, even the labs can't agree on the color grades of stones and something could be a "high" H or a "low" E. So... no you aren't going to be able to REALLY tell an F from a G, for example. Within 2 color grades it is hard to tell them apart. Not impossible. But very hard and you will have to see them side by side, and view them from the bottom and the side to be able to tell. And that's not how you wear stones. Telling colors apart gets MUCH harder once the stones are set. Assuming you are taking about stones with the same or similar performance, because light return masks body color.

This is how I think of it:

Ever seen one of those HUGE paint fan decks? Where there are literally 100s of colors of whites? And when they are RIGHT next to each other you can TOTALLY tell that one is bluer/colder and one is a bit warmer and which one is one is TOTALLY warmer. One there's one that's slightly greener. One that's slightly pinker? But really. They are all white?

Then you pick one after agonizing over this white or that white and when it's on the walls and people are like: Oh. You painted again. And it's STILL white. Great.

And you're all... BUT it's BLUE white. Or it's a WARM white now. It used to be ____ white. It's TOTALLY different.

It's like that. You are talking about shades of white. D is colder... J is warmer. But it's all white.

Yes, if you have an accurately graded F and an H THAT HAVE THE SAME PERFORMANCE you are going to be able to tell them apart when you compare them side by side (and especially from the side or the bottom when unset). Just like you would be able to tell if you painted your walls a warm white, but painted the crown molding a cold/straight white. But both are STILL white.

I want you notice all the qualifiers though. I'm talking about stones with the SAME performance. An well cut H with great light performance will out white an F that has compromised light performance from a poor cut.

NOTHING impacts the appearance of a diamond as much as cut. CUT is king.

You want the shinest whitest and brightest diamond out there: Cut is King. No other factor, not color or clarity or anything else impacts how white bright an shiny a stone is.

So that leaves you to focus on cut and performance and for fancies that means seeing them in motion (in person and in videos) and using an ASET scope (both vendors should have these) http://www.ideal-scope.com/1.using_ASET_scope.asp and fortunately for you... seeing them perform in person. And faceting. With fancies beauty is determined by faceting and light performance. That's why I made a point of the 8 main facet structure of the I.

But REMEMBER: JUST BECAUSE YOU SEE COLOR DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE COLOR SENSITIVE. It just means your eyes work. There are PLENTY of people on these boards with YEARS of experience with diamond who HAPPILY wear J's K's or L's. Being color sensitive means you can see color AND YOU LET IT BOTHER YOU. You don't have to let it bother you. I fact, I would say you are much better off if you don't

And remember, once a diamond is set, and you are seeing it on the hand and away from other stones... as long as the light performance is good, no one is going to be able to tell an G from an H that way.

Thank you for the kitty comments. He's a handsome beast... dumb as the day is long. But handsome. He's one of six of mine. And very much a sweetie!

 

[chrisan]

I called them because I didn't get a confirmation email. She said she'll send the ASET and it'll take probably 3 days. I asked her about seeing it in person, she said they don't do that service in the NYC office. Which is a shame. But I can talk to their gemologist if I want to.
Not to get ahead of my self, this process is going a lot faster than I imagined, but we have a preference for the setting- tapered baguettes. I particularly loved the setting at Cartier, it's so elegant. Do the that would work with the diamond?

 

[Gypsy]

Yes definitely! Very classic and elegant setting choice!

ERD makes gorgeous settings. No matter where you buy the diamond from. They should be able to do that for you in platinum with no issue. And they have a hand-forged bench as well, and can give you a quote for that setting. I would have no issue personally ordered ANY ring from ERD.

Another option for the setting, and probably just my personal preference for this style, because I love his version of the design, though would be to have Steven Kirsch make the setting (He is in NY): http://www.stevenkirsch.com/

Here is a similar design Steven did for one of our members: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/steven-kirsch-three-stone-ring-in-the-making.194946/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/steven-kirsch-three-stone-ring-in-the-making.194946/[/URL]

My own halo is by him, and the quality and workmanship is fantastic.

Here's a gallery of his three stones: http://www.stevenkirsch.com/engagement/three-stone.html?limit=all and the one most similar to what you want: http://www.stevenkirsch.com/engagement/three-stone/r0329.html

And you can get your stone from anywhere and Steven will happily make the setting for you.

It's really a win/win. Either vendor will be able to create a GORGEOUS version of what you want. Like I said, it's a gorgeous and classic choice.

 

[chrisan]

Paid my non-refundable $550 deposit (had to pay tax b/c I'm in NY state) to meet with GOG this Saturday. It looks like I'm gonna be forced into making a decision within a week Really wish I could see the JA diamond so I can compare. But I'll have to settle with ASET. Perhaps I can ask them to send it to an independent gemologist? Don't really know what our options are. Going to contact Steven Kirsch for a quote for the setting. This is all happening faster than expected- exciting and terrifying since I heard some PSers wait months even years for their perfect diamond.

Oh I found this on Blue Nile, it's a 8 main cushion (I think).
http://www.bluenile.com/cushion-cut-diamond-3-carat-very-good-cut-i-color-vs1-clarity_LD00177695
Is this no good because of the medium culet?

And what about these on ERD? Couldn't find a GIA report, but I'm meeting with them on Friday.
http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/3.09-carat-i-vvs2-good-cushion-cut-diamond-gid-133479.html
http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/3.40-carat-i-vs2-good-cushion-cut-diamond-gid-93201.html
http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/3.02-carat-h-vs2-good-cushion-cut-diamond-gid-170753.html
http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/3.01-carat-d-vs2-very-good-cushion-cut-diamond-gid-140226.html

Also this is the only one at BGD that is within my color, cost, and carat criteria- no GIA
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/3.260-i-vs2-cushion-diamond-gia-ds147

About 8 main vs. 4 main cushions I watched this video from GOG and basically he said there is no difference and you can't tell the beauty of a diamond based on that. Does he mean there is no guarantee that a diamond will be beautiful just because it's 8 main and there can be some beautiful 4 main cushions? But most of the time, a 8 main will be more brilliant than a 4 main? Did I get that right? I'm little worried they will show me a bunch of 4 mains since my criteria for size, 8 main, rectangular L/W is a little strict and there might not be much of a selection.
TIA.

 

[luvsdmb]

http://jewelsbyericagrace.smugmug.com/Jewelry/Loose-Diamonds/265ct-Antique-Cushion-Cut/33264559_tQM6JB#!i=2887343333&k=v4zmPD7

 

[GemFever]

A $550 deposit for GOG just to meet? How does that work?

If you feel unpleasantly rushed, then don't hesitate to take a step back and give yourself a little time. On the other hand, if you see a stone you love (like the one Gypsy picked out! ) you don't have to wait just because it took others a long time to find their stone. Some people on PS look for a long time because they are looking for something really specific (like vintage stones on the second-hand market) and on a limited budget. It can take a while to find one of those stones.

I've only ever bought vintage stones (old cuts), so can't really advise about modern cushions. But I would take Gypsy's advice in a heartbeat on that 3.21!

Also wanted to mention -- a medium culet doesn't mean it's not a great stone, it might mean it's a vintage stone (old cuts have open culets usually).

Good luck in your search! Sounds like you are going to end up with a *stunning* ring on your finger!

 

[treasurehunter]

http://www.diamondsbylauren.com/index.php/jewelry/loose-colorless-diamond-309ct-j-vvs2-cushion-cut-gia-remarkable-stone-r5435

How about this Stunner. DBL have the best cushion cuts in my opinion ,it may be a tad lower in colour but worth a visit to see this beauty.

 

[Gypsy]

Okay so... there are a lot of questions there, and it's 10:30 at night and I'm frankly fried. This is a really crazy week at work.

So let me do what I can to clarify.

The one you found on BN is an 8 main, and a culet is not bad. But you have to like the look. You said you are looking for a modern cushion.

The problem with Blue Nile is there are no pictures and that means you don't know if that stone is modern faceted or antique. See below:
Here's a modern eight main, with a culet: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/1.00-carat-f-color-vvs1-clarity-sku-22108 See the certificate? The mains are skinny. Now that USUALLY (but not always unfortunately) means a modern cushion. That's why you need the pictures of the actual stone.

The one on Blue Nile GIA certificate you found has very fat mains and a culet, exactly like this stone: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/1.03-carat-e-color-vvs2-clarity-sku-145387 That probably mean antique faceting see the chart here, the certificate on Blue Nile matches the first one here:



And that's not what you want.

 

[Gypsy]

http://www.diamondsbylauren.com/index.php/jewelry/loose-colorless-diamond-309ct-j-vvs2-cushion-cut-gia-remarkable-stone-r5435

How about this Stunner. DBL have the best cushion cuts in my opinion ,it may be a tad lower in colour but worth a visit to see this beauty.

It's not a stunner. Frankly there is a reason why DBL carries a lot of that facet pattern not you don't see it very often at ERD or GOG, who provide gorgeous cushions and ASETs of them. They do not ASET out well at all. They are also noticeably less bright than both 8 and 4 mains with good ASETs, as several people who have seen them in person on here have verified. Which is another reason why you wont' see GOG and ERD putting their "signature" stamp on a cushion of that facet pattern.

I know you said in another thread that your dad, who has 30 years experience likes that facet pattern. But you'll excuse me if I say that I don't know your dad from any other unknown jeweler and I know BOTH DBL, and his reputation on these boards when it comes to cut, and GOG and ERD. And there is a reason GOG and ERD are the most recommended for cushions. Because they have a proven track record of finding beautiful WELL PERFORMING STONE. And I can't say the same of your dad.

DBL doesn't provide ASETs and frankly if you are paying 5k for a stone-- let alone 40k you want all the information possible. And JA, ERD and GOG are the best at providing that with ALL stones, let alone cushions.

 

[Gypsy]

Back to the questions the OP had.

There are a LOT of 4 main cushions available. And very few 8 mains.

I'm not sure anyone has explained to me WHY 8 mains aren't cut more frequently... it probably has something to do with it being more expensive to cut them -- either because of the skill of the cutter or the amount of rough lost, or combination of both.

Having an eight main facet plot isn't a guarantee of performance. I've seen some that are duds some that are great. But for whatever reason though, the large MAJORITY of MODERN faceted 8 mains with facet patten 3 or 4 below tend to be good performers. Now I don't know if that's a function of the skill of the cutters of these or what. But in GENERAL I find that eight mains with facet 3 or 4 ASET and video out to be above average performers. The only way to check though is to see them in motion (why I love the JA videos) and get an ASET.



SO what about 4 mains. Well there are MANY more of them available. And many of them are duds. But many of them aren't. It is a bit harder to weed through a ton of 4 mains to find nice ones. But it's not impossible and we do it here on a weekly basis. So does GOG and so does ERD. There isn't any reason why four mains should be worse. Except that there are a lot more of them so there are a lot more bad ones out there. But 4 mains can perform VERY WELL and even out perform an eight main.

Here is an example:

Here's a 4 main:
http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/this-x-factor-cushion-diamnond-has-been-reserved.-gid-155243.html

Here's an 8 main:
http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/1.03-carat-g-vs1-x-factor-cushion-cut-diamond-gid-169937.html

Now that 4 main has a LOT more red (ignore the hue difference, focus on amount of red, the two ASETs have different filters). There is more red in the ASET of the 4 main and more at the edges of the stone for edge to edge brilliance. NOW, you said you will be going to ERD. It might be great for you to ask to see these two stones and see what you think of them in person. That will be a good exercise for you.

Now both are WAY above average stones. But one is just a bit brighter, at least as the ASET shows.

You have the opportunity to see in person what you eye prefers.
My best advice to you is that I KNOW this is stressful, but there is NO reason for you to feel pressured. If you do you can tell EITHER vendor straight out-- "I am feeling a bit pressured and I don't appreciate that, can you please help me get educated without feeling the pressure of a sale so much? I am spending a lot of money and I need to make sure I take the time I need to make a good and educated decision. Until I feel I am ready to that, I am not going to be buying anything."

OKAY?
If ERD or GOG finds you a 4 main, I'm sure it will be a great performer, and they will provide you with an ASET scope and show you the diamonds in different lighting environments so you can check out for yourself what you prefer.

As for the JA stone. It's not ideal but they have a no questions asked 60 day return policy. So you can buy it at any point and be able to return it (including shipping) for a full refund if you ever feel that is your best option.

 

[treasurehunter]

And what is the Reputation of DBL on this forum?

I personally like the facet patterning of the stone I chose its unique and different.
I have seen the other stones you chose so many times that Its boring for me even though they are better performers if you want the best performer why not get a round …...
Im sure they can supply an ASET if you ask.

 

[Gypsy]

And what is the Reputation of DBL on this forum?

I personally like the facet patterning of the stone I chose its unique and different.
I have seen the other stones you chose so many times that Its boring for me even though they are better performers if you want the best performer why not get a round …...
Im sure they can supply an ASET if you ask.

No they do not provide ASETs. Last I heard David doesn't believe in them. Or anything that verifies performance except his own eyes and his personal asthetic for what is beautiful.

As for his reputation, you've been on these boards long enough that you can do a search and find that out yourself.

As for unique and different, yeah that's not really what these guys asked for is it? And a well performing cushion is nothing like a round. Just because it bores YOU to see well cut cushions doesn't mean that someone should buy a round. That makes no sense.

And while it is boring for YOU. These shoppers aren't as jaded as you are. Maybe the solution if for you to avoid cushion threads since they seem to bore you?

 

[treasurehunter]

I think that the buyer can choose his own diamond , I am just giving the unique option in case he doesn't like that super symmetrical look that everyone tries to push people into.The cushion I don't find boring in fact its my favourite cut because they can vary so much
Its good to inform the consumer on light performance and that may be his thing but not all people like what you like so I am giving him that option and allowing him to be more informed.

 

[chrisan]

Thank you for all your responses- I really appreciate that you are spending so much time helping me. I feel a little pressured because I wish I was more knowledgeable. Plus the non- refundable deposit at GOG- I'm sure they (and ERD) will find me some beautiful 4 main stones- but I don't know how to compare it with this JA diamond (which they will not hold past Monday). I can pick out a beautiful stone from duds, but not really the most beautiful from pretty much all pretty stones. In the email from GOG describing their policies, the $500 plus tax covers the cost of transportation for the diamonds- which I completely understand- a lot of people back out even after they do all this work. But they said they will withhold the lab report until I make a purchase, which makes me nervous, since I am so untrained- I had hoped to post ASET or GIA here so I could get some expertise.

 

[chrisan]

Just got a call from JA that the 3.21 I-VS1 might not be available They have a "diamond partnership" with someone. And I guess someone else is trying to source it too. Now I'm paranoid- is it because of me? Did GOG try to get this diamond for me or just someone who's been reading the thread? Dunno. JA will let me know on Friday if it is truly available.

 

[Gypsy]

It could be GOG. You might just want to call GOG and ask them.

We will help you as much as we can. This is a hard thing. We'll make it as easy as we can.

 

[chrisan]

Thank you Gypsy- I really appreciate your presence here, and would love your continued support in the coming days. I'm feeling better because I know most likely I will end up with a beautiful stone (I don't think you guys, GOG or ERD will let me purchase a dud!)

Called both GOG and ERD and it was neither of them. Both David (from GOG) and Chris (from ERD) were really nice and patient with me. I'm looking forward to meeting these experts in the next few days. Chris explained to me that GOG, ERD, JA are like brokers and the 3.21 I VS 1 might no longer be available because it's been sold and the seller decided not to show it anymore. This whole diamond searching thing is a lot like finding an apartment in NYC.

Anyway, I will keep you all posted in the next few days, thank you in advance for your patience and time.