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Please Help!! I''m in tears and confused

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Class n Sass

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
306
So I have posted before about my issue/concern but I need more advice and I would appreciate it if the experts would weigh in as well. So I have my e-ring and here are the specs on the center stone.

Round Brilliant
6.16-6.19x3.70mm
0.86 carat
Color: G
Clarity: VS2
Cut: Good
Total Depth: 59.9%
Table Size: 56%
Crown Angle: 34
Crown Height: 14.5
Pavilion Angle: 40.2
Star Length: 55%
Lower Half: 85%
Girdle: Thin to Medium
Faceted 3.1%
Culet: none
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Flourescence: None
Clarity Characteristics: Cloud Crystal

I''m pretty sure the cost of the stone was $4100. I started having conerns when it was nearly 4 weeks after purchasing the ring and the jeweler still hadn''t sent the GIA certificate to my fiance. We finally got it and see that the cut is Good. He specifically remembers her saying it was an Ideal cut and he wrote it down. To our surprise the certificate arrives and says only Good. I know GIA doesn''t use Ideal so I don''t know where she got this term from. He called and spoke to her today to discuss this issue and she said something about one would only know it was ideal by the specs and supposedly that is how she made that determination. I''m not comfortble with that answer and am really ready to return the ring and just go somewhere else.

Would you consider this stone Ideal based on the specs? Please be totally honest. I''m uncomfortable with the whole situation and am very upset
She told us to come into the shop on Thursday so we can discuss it. Please give me any pointers as to what I should be saying about the stone. I have heard before that the stone is shallow. Should I be adding all of that in as well?

Thank You in Advance
 

decodelighted

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
11,534
Do you love it? Is it beautiful?

I''m sorry you''re so upset! There seems to be a lot of confusion around and abuse of the term "ideal" when it comes to diamonds.

If someone says "This is an Ideal cut stone" ... the next questions kinda needs to be "Ideal according to WHOM?"

It''s a buzzword that gets tossed around a lot ... a jeweler can say EVERY stone is "ideal" according to their own loose opinion of "ideal" ... sad to say. I''ve seen a lot of websites where stone after stone after stone is labeled "ideal" ... when the specs were anything BUT what GIA would call an "Excellent Cut" or AGS would call "Ideal".

Lemmie ask you this ... why is "ideal" important to you ...

1) because that''s what he thought he was getting?

2) because you only want a stone that is an AGS type SUPER "Ideal" cut .. H&A or the like

I don''t know the AGS Ideal cut standards for Rounds by heart to be able to tell if yours fits those or not ... someone else will weigh in I''m sure ...

But assuming it DOESN''T ... and what they consider "Ideal" isn''t what AGS or more stringent places consider "Ideal" ... does that change the way you feel about the stone?

If it does ... return it, scratch it up to a learning experience & start over!
 

rjdodd

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
108
Well it gets a HCA 1.0 - VG, EX, EX, EX - which is pretty good - though it falls well outside the AGS Ideal and GIA excellent boxes.

So without seeing a IS image, or seeing it in person it would definitely go on my the short list for approval based on the numbers. How does it look?

I am not remotely an expert.
 

belle

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 19, 2004
Messages
10,285
''ideal'' is just a label, there is no one be all and end all ''ideal'' it''s more of a buzzword in the jewelry industry. one jewelers ''ideal'' is anothers ''premium'' or ''excellent'' or....whatever. ags lab does give diamonds the grade ''ideal'' but that is not what most jewelers are referring to when they say ''this diamond is ideal''. more likely, they are referring to their own top cut diamond. really what it boils down to is what is the definition of ''ideal'' from the vendor you are purchasing from, and more importantly, do you like the diamond? that is the real question. no matter what the definition is, no matter what the label is, do you like the diamond?
 

Class n Sass

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
306
Well I am upset because he was told ideal and we get the certificate and see that it says good. I feel like there was some deception. Also I feel uncomfortable with the fact that she kept saying I''m sending the certificate and never sent it until 3 weeks later.
 

Kaleigh

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
29,570
Date: 3/5/2007 5:13:28 PM
Author: belle
''ideal'' is just a label, there is no one be all and end all ''ideal'' it''s more of a buzzword in the jewelry industry. one jewelers ''ideal'' is anothers ''premium'' or ''excellent'' or....whatever. ags lab does give diamonds the grade ''ideal'' but that is not what most jewelers are referring to when they say ''this diamond is ideal''. more likely, they are referring to their own top cut diamond. really what it boils down to is what is the definition of ''ideal'' from the vendor you are purchasing from, and more importantly, do you like the diamond? that is the real question. no matter what the definition is, no matter what the label is, do you like the diamond?
Ditto!!!
 

belle

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 19, 2004
Messages
10,285
Date: 3/5/2007 5:14:09 PM
Author: Class n Sass
Well I am upset because he was told ideal and we get the certificate and see that it says good. I feel like there was some deception. Also I feel uncomfortable with the fact that she kept saying I''m sending the certificate and never sent it until 3 weeks later.
well, even if it had the *best* grade it could get from gia, it would still only be ''excellent''
really, a piece of paper isn''t the only way to decide whether or not your diamond is ''worthy''
 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
24,426
When you go in Thurs., why don''t you ask her to show you some AGS000 and GIA Triple Ex stones, and you can compare them to yours. See what you think.
 

winternight

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 12, 2006
Messages
887
Honestly in your situation I think I''d get an outside appraisal. I don''t like how she hasn''t sent over the certificate. Sorry that you''re upset. It can be stressful - a diamond ring is a big purchase and its something you wear every day.
 

jaz464

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
2,022
You need to decide if you like the diamond, period.Forget about the report. So it took a while to get the GIA report, but now you have it. When she said it was Ideal, I would have automatically questioned her because GIA doesn''t use that term. Did you ask her about that at the time, knowing that a GIA diamond can''t be ''ideal?'' Honestly, if you just don''t like it because it says the cut is good but your eyes are not educated enough to see an actual difference I would probably keep it. If you loved it before you saw the report, why send it back now?
 

Regular Guy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
5,951
A combination of John''s and Ellen''s comments works for me. To accomplish what Ellen has suggested, however, I''d cue them up as to your intent. If you have the option still to return your selection, and you want to consider that, you''ll do it easier if you have some real options to compare yours to. BTW, I''m a relative fan of the analysis available from the HCA...so do feel you may well have done OK.
 

jayrenay9

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
704
Date: 3/5/2007 4:55:38 PM
Author:Class n Sass
So I have posted before about my issue/concern but I need more advice and I would appreciate it if the experts would weigh in as well. So I have my e-ring and here are the specs on the center stone.

Round Brilliant
6.16-6.19x3.70mm
0.86 carat
Color: G
Clarity: VS2
Cut: Good
Total Depth: 59.9%
Table Size: 56%
Crown Angle: 34
Crown Height: 14.5
Pavilion Angle: 40.2
Star Length: 55%
Lower Half: 85%
Girdle: Thin to Medium
Faceted 3.1%
Culet: none
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Flourescence: None
Clarity Characteristics: Cloud Crystal

I''m pretty sure the cost of the stone was $4100. I started having conerns when it was nearly 4 weeks after purchasing the ring and the jeweler still hadn''t sent the GIA certificate to my fiance. We finally got it and see that the cut is Good. He specifically remembers her saying it was an Ideal cut and he wrote it down. To our surprise the certificate arrives and says only Good. I know GIA doesn''t use Ideal so I don''t know where she got this term from. He called and spoke to her today to discuss this issue and she said something about one would only know it was ideal by the specs and supposedly that is how she made that determination. I''m not comfortble with that answer and am really ready to return the ring and just go somewhere else.

Would you consider this stone Ideal based on the specs? Please be totally honest. I''m uncomfortable with the whole situation and am very upset
She told us to come into the shop on Thursday so we can discuss it. Please give me any pointers as to what I should be saying about the stone. I have heard before that the stone is shallow. Should I be adding all of that in as well?

Thank You in Advance
I''m a tad confused too
Didn''t you post this question last week?? And didn''t you get an appraisal already too and the appraiser said the stone was "desirable".

Ah, maybe I''m just really confused?
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,629
When I just did a quick search, it looks like a .85 G VS2 good cut runs around $3200 or so. I personally think you can do better, but it''s up to you as to whether you love the stone or not. I can''t find an excellent cut with those specs at the moment, though.
 

Class n Sass

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
306
Diamondseeker...where did you find that information? I would like to share that with my fiance.

On Thursday I will definitely ask her what she meant by ideal.

I wasn''t there when the stone was purchased otherwise I would have asked her at that time what she meant by ideal because I know that GIA doesn''t use that term.
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,272
Date: 3/5/2007 5:28:20 PM
Author: Ellen
When you go in Thurs., why don''t you ask her to show you some AGS000 and GIA Triple Ex stones, and you can compare them to yours. See what you think.
This is the best advice but I''d temper it with this...

The diamonds angles that you describe will look firery and and have great sparkle scintillation in spot lighting. Spot lighting is the primary lighting environment featured in jewelry stores and while there''s nothing wrong with looking at diamonds in jewelry stores, realize that this is a very limited view and not as common as what a person typically finds themself in on a daily basis.

This is one of those kinds of diamonds that when you take it into more common viewing conditions (ie. natural or diffuse light) it''ll be dark, lack brightness with an imbalance of contrast with too many darks (not enough bright areas) which also affects its patterned scintillation. That is why it gets a GIA good and falls outside of AGS Ideal range.

So ... looking at it in jewelry store lighting alone could lead to a somewhat faulty decision if that is the only viewing environment you see it in. You want to compare to GIA Ex/AGS Id in both spot lighting and more importantly in some type of diffuse lighting environment for a more accurate assessment or brightness.

Hope that helps and good luck.

Kind regards,
 

Class n Sass

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
306
Rhino,

Great info. What you mentioned about the fire and scintillation in non-spot lighting is something that I have been noticing. In jewelry stores and many department stores the sparkle is great!! However in natural lighting not so much. It tends to looks sorta flat. This was also a concern of mine. But I didn''t know if this was the case with all diamonds, even with diamonds that have better specs than mine. If I do end up returning the stone what suggestions could you give? What should I be looking for in a new stone? Also, do you think he overpaid for the stone at $4100?
Thanks
 

Kelkel

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
31
Aren''t those prices online only? If so, you''re almost always going to find out that you pay more in a B&M store, and $4100 could be a fair deal. The only B&M prices I''ve seen are from Tiffany & Co., and of course they are at least a couple thousand more than what you can find online.
 

tanalasta

Shiny_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Messages
323
My two cents ... although I''m no expert either.

Some great advice from the experts above.

I would suggest mentioning that the diamond you have isn''t ''ideal'' and that it is only given a GIA ''good'', which is it''s 3rd grade. The reasons would be what Rockdoc posted. To get into technicalities, the pavillion angle is slightly too shallow (40.2) and that can affect the way the diamond reflects light. Although the diamond may have been considered ideal under the old AGS system, it falls outside what the updated charts (taking into account new research and experiences with diamonds).

An HCA <2 suggests it ''may'' be a satisfactory stone... it doesn''t necessarily guarantee it.

$4200 at a B&M store - does this include the setting? B&M stores are in generally higher priced than their online counterparts due to higher running costs and markups.

What is the store''s exchange/refund policy? And did you ask the salesperson to put ''ideal'' in writing?

''If'' the store has GIA triple excellent or AGS 0 light performance stones - definitely compare them and see the difference. Also, a diamond should be looked at in different lighting situations - spot lighting and diffuse lighting (e.g. outside in the shade) or diffuse fluorescent lighting as well. If you had an idealscope that would help you even further in determing whether a stone was ''ideal''.

I''m not sure if you sighted the certificate prior to finalising the purchase (I suspect you didn''t) ... but for your information, if the vendor had the diamond''s GIA number and carat weight, you can go to GIA''s website, click on report and through their report check services bring up a copy of all the cut and proportion information (minus the diagrams) on the certificate.

I''m sorry to hear of your experiences... keep reading on PS and all the best when you return to your jeweller for your discussion.
 

Skippy123

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Messages
24,299
Date: 3/5/2007 7:14:45 PM
Author: jayrenay9


Date: 3/5/2007 4:55:38 PM
Author:Class n Sass
So I have posted before about my issue/concern but I need more advice and I would appreciate it if the experts would weigh in as well. So I have my e-ring and here are the specs on the center stone.

Round Brilliant
6.16-6.19x3.70mm
0.86 carat
Color: G
Clarity: VS2
Cut: Good
Total Depth: 59.9%
Table Size: 56%
Crown Angle: 34
Crown Height: 14.5
Pavilion Angle: 40.2
Star Length: 55%
Lower Half: 85%
Girdle: Thin to Medium
Faceted 3.1%
Culet: none
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Flourescence: None
Clarity Characteristics: Cloud Crystal

I'm pretty sure the cost of the stone was $4100. I started having conerns when it was nearly 4 weeks after purchasing the ring and the jeweler still hadn't sent the GIA certificate to my fiance. We finally got it and see that the cut is Good. He specifically remembers her saying it was an Ideal cut and he wrote it down. To our surprise the certificate arrives and says only Good. I know GIA doesn't use Ideal so I don't know where she got this term from. He called and spoke to her today to discuss this issue and she said something about one would only know it was ideal by the specs and supposedly that is how she made that determination. I'm not comfortble with that answer and am really ready to return the ring and just go somewhere else.

Would you consider this stone Ideal based on the specs? Please be totally honest. I'm uncomfortable with the whole situation and am very upset
She told us to come into the shop on Thursday so we can discuss it. Please give me any pointers as to what I should be saying about the stone. I have heard before that the stone is shallow. Should I be adding all of that in as well?

Thank You in Advance
I'm a tad confused too
Didn't you post this question last week?? And didn't you get an appraisal already too and the appraiser said the stone was 'desirable'.

Ah, maybe I'm just really confused?


You are right; it was sounding familiar to me too.
Here is the post.

So I went to an independent GIA certified appraiser today after work to have my ring appraised. He said my fiance should not have paid anymore than $5300. He paid $4900 so at least we feel good knowing he was not ripped off. He told me that it really is a good quality stone. He used the word "desirable" to describe it. He appraised it at $6500. The original appraisal that my fiance got when he bought the ring from the jeweler was $7300. The man I met with today said that it's not good to appraise a ring at a value that is too high because if something happens to it and I do need to get it replaced they will not give me a check for $7500(they will simply replace it). Appraising it at a prices of $6500 will mean that it is more likely they will give me a check and I can buy my own new ring. How much truth is there to this? Which appraisal should I use for insurance purposes?

Also he noticed that the specs the original jeweler wrote on the appraisal are slightly different than the specs on the GIA report. For example she put different measurements on the appraisal than what the report says. There's not a huge difference. Is it common for jewelers to do this in order to make the stone look better on the appraisal so that they can give it a higher appraisal? What are your thoughts???


I think it sound beautiful. Do you like it???
 

Unearthed

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
103
If I were in your shoes I would be reacting exactly the same way you are. I don''t mean to be rude and I am not trying to insult you in any way, but if you are even the least bit obsessive like I am...unless you really love this ring it will most likely bother you for a long time. Go talk to the jeweler but I personally wouldn''t listen to much of what she has to say. Look at your ring, compare it to others...if you are not happy, swap it.
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Sorry to hear you ran into a skunk which are far too common in the trade.
That''s "deceptive practice" is not outright "fraud" on the part of the dealer in my opinion.
The dealer should be tared feathered and shot.
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Date: 3/5/2007 4:55:38 PM
Author:Class n Sass
Would you consider this stone Ideal based on the specs?

Thank You in Advance
No way and neither would anyone else who was honest.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
15,176
Date: 3/5/2007 4:55:38 PM
Author:Class n Sass
So I have posted before about my issue/concern but I need more advice and I would appreciate it if the experts would weigh in as well. So I have my e-ring and here are the specs on the center stone.

Round Brilliant
6.16-6.19x3.70mm
0.86 carat
Color: G
Clarity: VS2
Cut: Good
Total Depth: 59.9%
Table Size: 56%
Crown Angle: 34
Crown Height: 14.5
Pavilion Angle: 40.2
Star Length: 55%
Lower Half: 85%
Girdle: Thin to Medium
Faceted 3.1%
Culet: none
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Flourescence: None
Clarity Characteristics: Cloud Crystal

I''m pretty sure the cost of the stone was $4100. I started having conerns when it was nearly 4 weeks after purchasing the ring and the jeweler still hadn''t sent the GIA certificate to my fiance. We finally got it and see that the cut is Good. He specifically remembers her saying it was an Ideal cut and he wrote it down. To our surprise the certificate arrives and says only Good. I know GIA doesn''t use Ideal so I don''t know where she got this term from. He called and spoke to her today to discuss this issue and she said something about one would only know it was ideal by the specs and supposedly that is how she made that determination. I''m not comfortble with that answer and am really ready to return the ring and just go somewhere else.

Would you consider this stone Ideal based on the specs? Please be totally honest. I''m uncomfortable with the whole situation and am very upset
She told us to come into the shop on Thursday so we can discuss it. Please give me any pointers as to what I should be saying about the stone. I have heard before that the stone is shallow. Should I be adding all of that in as well?

Thank You in Advance
Please go read the stuff onn the HCA link after you enter your data - it will explain the weaknesses and also the strenght of shallow stones.

If GIA did their studies the way Rhino does - they would have given this stone Excellent - I know this because I showed a similar stone - effectively shallower - to 2 of their top instructors and they both preferred it to a Tolkowsky stone for brightness (50-50 on fire).

The only time you will not like this stone is

1. when you examine it close up
2. when the only light is coming from very low angles like a window.

Read the article from the pinned link at the top of this forum page.

And it is about th size of most .95ct diamonds for a lot less money!!!

And it will outshine tolkowsky diamonds when it is dirty - promise
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
15,176
Date: 3/6/2007 3:51:56 AM
Author: Lorelei
Great stuff Garry!!!!!
But because I know Storm will object - this is what happens if you look at the stone from very very close up (like 8 inches).

So if you want to do that then return the stone.

But few people do except when they are actually buying the diamond.

Otherwise you can enjoy additional benefits.

56 34 40.2 40 head.JPG
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Garry.
We can argue all day if its a decent stone or not (we cant assume it has decent optical symmetry because a lot of stones don't which throws the DC models out the window) and under some conditions it could very well be nice but its a fact that it was misrepresented.

This one is a no brainer in court, the gia report says the cut is good, the vendor says ideal which is the judge going to believe?
Enough to get triple damages right there and maybe a conviction if it can be proven the vendor saw the cut grade before the sale.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
15,176
Date: 3/6/2007 5:40:55 AM
Author: strmrdr
Garry.
We can argue all day if its a decent stone or not (we cant assume it has decent optical symmetry because a lot of stones don''t which throws the DC models out the window) and under some conditions it could very well be nice but its a fact that it was misrepresented.

This one is a no brainer in court, the gia report says the cut is good, the vendor says ideal which is the judge going to believe?
Enough to get triple damages right there and maybe a conviction if it can be proven the vendor saw the cut grade before the sale.
Any freshman attorney in court would have no trouble pointing to proportions in AGS''s old, oldest or fairly oldest proportion guides to cautters and GIA''s Facetware to argue that case either way Storm.

It is a null and void arguement from a legal stand point.

And the retailer could always point to HCA as being a fore runner to (and a format copied by) GIA - so therefore also a valid criteria.

So law will not help here.
 
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