Pink diamonds worth the money???

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 9/1/2009 6:56:11 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 9/1/2009 6:43:25 PM

Author: Rockdiamond

HI trinity,

I ask with all due respect what I wrote that gave you such an idea?



Yes..., I wonder what gave trinity that idea too?


If the cutter could do as Diagem is suggesting- that being keep resubimitting a stone to get a higher grade, it's still not 'cheating'- it's trying to use the system to make a higher price.

If cutters can't make money, they can't continue to cut diamonds- that's just business, not cheating.

If a cutter is smart enough to produce a 4carat stone worth more than a 4.5 he started with, that sounds also like smart business. Personally, I loved the step cut and was very sad that he chose to cut it to a radiant.I get attached to the goods.

That's one of the reasons ( among a gazillion others) I could never be a diamond cutter.


Diagem, specifically how would this work?

Say a dealer or cutter has a Y-Z which they feel is as dark as a Fancy Light Yellow.

Do they submit it monthly? Hold it a few years and try again, while refusing to accept a fair price, based on the current GIA report?

The financial instrument which would pay a far better return would be for cutters to accept market value on such stones, and use the money over and over again.

RD..., you know well its customary in the industry to simply resubmit close calls for 'new' reports as re-checks became pretty much a useless battle at GIA...


If a 4.50 ct Cape EC is valued at $X total...., what would a 4.00 ct Fancy (light) yellow be valued in comparisons?

Hi Diagem- yes, I do know that many dealers and cutters will throw away a report they disagree with and re-submit.
But after a few times, the costs really add up.
My experience is that GIA is really pretty good at getting it right- give a stone in twice, you're very likely to get the same result. Not that we re-submit. As a rule, we don't However there have been times we've bought stones with old reports- or stones with "Color Origin" reports when we wanted a new, or full report.In cases like that we usually go for a fresh look, new report.
And GIA has issued the same color grade in just about every instance I remember.

What I see happening far more frequently is dealers either trying to sell without the report, at the price of the darker grade they believe the stone to be.
Or far more common, send it off to some non GIA lab who'll call it Fancy Intense Vivid Yellow.
That, my friends, is cheating. Especially if they don't inform the clients that the report is worthless, which why would they if they were aiming to deceive in the first place.

But back to Diagem's point.
Do you feel dealers hold Y-Z stones for extended periods waiting for GIA to change something?


As far as the relative price:
The stone I was referring to was graded Fancy Light Yellow by GIA and was about 4.50carat.
A fancy Yellow 4.00radiant would be about 30% more, on a per carat basis.
If the 4.50 started at $10k per carat, that's $45k.
If the 4.00 was $13k per carat, that's $52k

 

[kenny]

Date: 9/1/2009 4:55:55 PM
Author: Rockdiamond


When you say the reports are different, may I ask what you mean?

If we're speaking of non round diamonds, and comparing GIA Diamond Grading Report, versus a GIA 'Colored Diamond Grading Report', the main differences I see have to do with the cover of the report.

I'm curious to know what you meant when you mentioned they were very different.

The color GIA reports have the chart below and tell you if the origin of the color is natural.

The other GIA reports ( for "white" diamonds) does not have the chart below, gives a color grade from D to Z and do not mention origin of color.

 

[glitterata]

David,

A few questions:

-What is that beautiful yellow square emerald you use as an avatar, and why didn''t it get recut as a radiant (or did it?)?

-Where can consumers find those WXYZs that missed getting a FLY grade? Are there sellers who specialize in them? Do you?

-Say you have a WXYZ color diamond that missed getting a FLY grade but looks like a FLY, are customers willing to spend more for it than for a WXYZ that doesn''t look like a FLY, or does the price depend strictly on the grading report rather than the look of the diamond?

-And what is the price difference between an ST and a YZ? Does the price go down or up when the stones get yellower that far down the scale?

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI all!
Kenny- great point!
I get so used to seeing that little diagram, I kind of overlooked it.
Other than that and the cover, the report is identical, ( other than one for a round D-Z round)

Glitterata- Thank you for asking! My avitar was a Fancy Vivid Yellow Asscher ( Square Emerald Cut) of about 2.50 carats.
It's a fairly complex decision making process.
In the example I cited before- cutting a 4.5 FLY Emerald ( not square) into a 4ct FY Radiant- we are at the lower end of the price spectrum.
A nice emerald cut, in a Fancy Light Yellow, is going to fetch ...maybe 25% more than a radiant of the same size and color. But remember, Fancy light yellow is still a "cheap" grade- so the overall dollar difference is not all that great.
Now, at the other end of the spectrum, a Fancy Vivid Yellow Asscher will bring at least 30% more than a comparable Radiant- possibly higher.
If you're starting with stones that cost $25k++ per carat, we start to talk major league differences in real dollar terms.
In such cases it makes more financial sense to cut for emerald if the color retention is feasible.

In terms of who sells light yellow diamonds: Many places do.
A real problem is that many of the "Fancy Yellows" being offered on eBay, or sites online- is that they are "fancy Yellow" by virtue of something other than GIA- and in all likelihood are U-V- Y-Z stones ( if that)
I post here courtesy of the gracious management of PS- although we can post a link to our site, I don't believe I'm allowed to discuss our own inventory.
Suffice it to say, I believe that it's crucial for these colors to be honestly and transparently represented using GIA gradings. On our site, we live to that.
I've started to see more sellers using the correct gradings ( U-V, W-X, Y-Z). I believe awareness is actually better than it was years ago- even though it's still a long way form how people have heard of Hearts and Arrows, for example.

Your question about stones that may look darker than the GIA grade: another good one!
Properly priced a W-X will still a whole lot less than a J color ( for example)- but within these ranges, stronger stones will really go for higher prices- based solely on visual aspects.
It's an area where you really need to look at the particular stone- like any other color, not all Y-Z's are created equal. But as opposed to the high colorless ranges, where a D is a D, the actual color really makes the difference in these ranges. The appearance is more important than what the GIA report says. The fact I feel this way about round diamond gets me in hot water ( ok among other things) here.



Price differences between the "Split letter" grades are nominal in real dollars.
Again, they are well below prices for colorless diamonds.
S-T, U-V, and to some extent W-X are at the bottom of the price ladder- almost interchangable.
Y-Z starts to climb out, by the time we hit Fancy Light Yellow, we're approaching parity with J color, pricewise.

 

[kenny]

RD what makes one yellow diamond a GIA X and another yellow diamond a GIA fancy yellow?

Both are yellow. But what kind of yellow?

Describe the difference between the yellows of a typical GIA X compared to a typical GIA Fancy yellow.

I realize the yellow vary over a range, but please just describe the most common yellows in these two very differently-priced hypothetical diamonds.

Then again since you sell both we may get only salesman-fluff-speak.
After all, every diamond for sale is the most beautiful diamond in the universe.

 

[glitterata]

David, thank you for that very interesting and thoughtful post.

(Kenny, maybe you should let David answer your questions before you accuse him of fluffy sales talk. I found his answers to my questions informative, straightforward, and far from fluffy.)

 

[marcy]

Great discussion! I would say it''s up to you what you are willing to pay for a pink diamond. They are pretty but I think pink sapphires are beauties too.

 

[kenny]

I'm just anticipating the, "everything is equally beautiful, it's all up to personal preference" party line to describe these two hypothetical diamonds that are hugely different in price.

This political correctness thing of Z is just as nice as D, and faint yellow is just as pretty as vivid yellow, and I3 is just as nice as flawless is getting rather old.

I'm sincerely wondering what the difference is in the appearance of an X next to a fancy yellow, yet nobody will be frank because they don't want to offend the X owners.

 

[cindygenit]

I think they are definitely worth it!

They are very rare and very beautiful.

However, I am a tad biased. I myself am getting little pink diamonds (Argyle) for my wedding band

 

[Rockdiamond]

glitterata- thank you.
Kenny, thank you for hopefully having an open mind to discuss these issues without harsh categorizations.
Below is a photo I put together to show you the difference between an Y-Z light Yellow, and a Fancy Yellow.
Both graded by GIA.
I believe the photo to be representative.
Personally, I found great beauty in both the stones below.

No matter how you or I feel about it, the market dictates that the darker stone is worth far more than the faint yellow one.

If someone loves faint yellow, and people do, why not take advantage of this?
It''s just important that they do it with their eyes open.
BTW, the Y-Z stone, once set, looked amazing.

 

[kenny]

Thanks David.

Could you please put two such diamonds face down side by side in the same pic with a white background? - you know - the way they evaluate color.

You are probably the only posting vendor with fast access to two such stones.

Please both rounds, one GIA WXY or Z and the other GIA natural fancy yellow.

 

[diagem]

Date: 9/1/2009 9:44:47 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Now, at the other end of the spectrum, a Fancy Vivid Yellow Asscher will bring at least 30% more than a comparable Radiant- possibly higher.

RD..., you are not being totally open..., when saying possibly higher what do you mean?

 

[T L]

Date: 8/31/2009 6:47:11 PM
Author: denverappraiser
This little treasure is coming up for auction in a few months at Christies in Hong Kong.

http://www.nationaljewelernetwork.com/njn/content_display/fashion/jewelry-auctions/e3ifd8888b3d7e4a1387b14cc39deeea13e

I guess we''ll see if it meets the reserve (probably about $5m) and can then decide if it''s worth the money.

Here''s one that sold in that same auction house in 2005 where they asked for and got $1,8M.

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=4503902&sid=9b99d665-1f09-4339-b949-1e52588393f1


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Stones like that are some of the most beautiful things in the world, if not among some of the rarest of gems. While white diamonds are abundant, vivid pinks like that, especially in such a large size, are incredibly rare. If I had the $$, I would buy it in a heartbeat. It''s worth it to me.

 

[stepcutnut]

What an interesting discussion!

 

[elle_chris]

Does GIA refer to the Y-Z range as "light yellow"? I found one stone in that range and the report just says y-z?

 

[Harriet]

Date: 8/31/2009 4:37:20 AM
Author:Trinity Creation
Hi y''all!! I was just wondering, are pink and yellow fancy diamonds worth the money?? Does anyone know for a fact that they sparkle as well as white diamonds??

As has been noted, "sparkle" is a function of other factors besides colour, like cut. Dispersion is also independent of colour.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 9/2/2009 9:03:17 AM
Author: elle_chris
Does GIA refer to the Y-Z range as ''light yellow''? I found one stone in that range and the report just says y-z?

HI elle,
On full GIA reports, the color is simply Y-Z range.
IN the case of "color origin" reports- the ones without clarity- GIA does further identify the color as "light yellow". For this reason we know of cutters that only use "Color Origin "reports for diamonds of U-V thru Y-Z.
Personally, we prefer a full GIA.

I agree- this is a very interesting conversation- although I believe we''ve strayed off topic.
I''ll be starting anew thread about this later today so we can continue the discussion.
Thank you very much to all the nice people posting!

Diagem- I really don''t understand what is bothering you.
I am very open- and everyone can see exactly who I am. Who are you?

Although I do not feel it''s common, we have paid 50% more for a vivid Asscher than a comparable radiant. I used the term possibly higher to include such possibilities. How is this anything less than honest?
Personally I''d really think long and hard before accusing someone like that.

I am still very interested in your proposed scheme on how to take all the Y-Z diamonds we own and turn them into Fancy Light yellows.
We would actually never be interested in participating in such behavior, but since you seem to be accusing dealers of it, please be specific and explain how it works.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 9/1/2009 11:31:46 PM
Author: kenny
Thanks David.

Could you please put two such diamonds face down side by side in the same pic with a white background? - you know - the way they evaluate color.

You are probably the only posting vendor with fast access to two such stones.

Please both rounds, one GIA WXY or Z and the other GIA natural fancy yellow.

Kenny- Fancy colors are graded differently than colorless- they are graded face up, not face down.

I do happen to have a photo of the Fancy Yellow in the face down position though.

 

[elle_chris]

Thanks for replying.

I can see why a dealer would prefer the color origin report. "light yellow" sounds better than "y-z" and they can overcharge as well. Good to know, thanks again.

 

[diagem]

Date: 9/2/2009 2:55:17 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 9/2/2009 9:03:17 AM
Author: elle_chris
Does GIA refer to the Y-Z range as ''light yellow''? I found one stone in that range and the report just says y-z?

HI elle,
On full GIA reports, the color is simply Y-Z range.
IN the case of ''color origin'' reports- the ones without clarity- GIA does further identify the color as ''light yellow''. For this reason we know of cutters that only use ''Color Origin ''reports for diamonds of U-V thru Y-Z.
Personally, we prefer a full GIA.

I agree- this is a very interesting conversation- although I believe we''ve strayed off topic.
I''ll be starting anew thread about this later today so we can continue the discussion.
Thank you very much to all the nice people posting!

Diagem- I really don''t understand what is bothering you.
I am very open- and everyone can see exactly who I am. Who are you?

What makes you think anything is bothering me?

Although I do not feel it''s common, we have paid 50% more for a vivid Asscher than a comparable radiant. I used the term possibly higher to include such possibilities. How is this anything less than honest?
Personally I''d really think long and hard before accusing someone like that.

RD..., I will not participate in your "putting words in the mouth" game! Where on earth did you read I am "accusing" or anything writen about "Honesty"?

I am still very interested in your proposed scheme on how to take all the Y-Z diamonds we own and turn them into Fancy Light yellows.
We would actually never be interested in participating in such behavior, but since you seem to be accusing dealers of it, please be specific and explain how it works.

If this is the level of your discussions, I prefer spending my energy elsewhere!

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI elle,
Why does it always have to turn into a bash fest here?
No question there are dealers trying to use bad methods to get consumer''s money- but having open honest conversations like this can help alleviate such occurrences.
Please remember that there are also many honest dealers. Do you want to drive those away?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 9/2/2009 8:00:57 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 9/1/2009 9:44:47 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Now, at the other end of the spectrum, a Fancy Vivid Yellow Asscher will bring at least 30% more than a comparable Radiant- possibly higher.

RD..., you are not being totally open..., when saying possibly higher what do you mean?

Diagem- I''m here to discuss openly, and honestly.
I equate the two things- I apologize if it was not your inent to equate the two or make insulting comments.
If you''re not angry, or broadly accusing dealers of things, I apologize as well.
For the benefit of others reading ( and me), can you please clarify your position?

 

[Trinity Creation]

Date: 9/1/2009 5:36:06 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
HI Diagem,
The cutter that got Fancy Yellow on the re-cut emerald....do you know how many times he had dissapointing results from GIA?
Many times.
Any idea how much capitol you need to be in that part of the business?
MANY millions of dollars.
I hope he does make money.
If there''s no profit, then there''s no diamonds. Who wins then?


In terms of Y-Z, U-V, W-X, and even S-T stones- we see them all the time. The cutter I mentioned - and many others we deal with- accept GIA''s findings and sell at prices the market will bear.
They need to take a loss sometimes to get the money back, so they can buy more rough, hopefully to have a windfall.
It would not seem to make sense to simply hold onto Y-Z stones in the hope GIA will alter it''s view.

Rockdiamond, it is cheating when you work in the dark areas wanting a slight dip in the GIA system so you can sqeeze a lesser diamond in hoping to catch a dificiency (in the GIA system) instead of accepting what the stone really is.

Aswell, when the person spends their THOUSANDS of dollars for what they think is a facy stone and get it later reassessed it could very well show up as not fancy or a lower grade.

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI trinity,
How many times can I repeat that we respect GIA's grades, and live within them. Check our site to see all the U-V, W-X and Y-Z stones honestly represented, and priced well below Fancy Light yellow.
I am not a diamond cutter- but the one I was referring to is as honest as the day is long. Making money honestly is NOT cheating. When he gets a Y-Z grade from GIA, that's what he sells- honestly- even if it means taking a loss.

NONE OF OUR CLEINTS GETS MISLED ABOUT ANYTHING WE SELL

I'm very sorry if someone somewhere ripped you off- but that is no excuse for false and misleading accusations.

 

[Black Jade]

Date: 9/2/2009 3:39:47 PM
Author: Trinity Creation

Date: 9/1/2009 5:36:06 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
HI Diagem,
The cutter that got Fancy Yellow on the re-cut emerald....do you know how many times he had dissapointing results from GIA?
Many times.
Any idea how much capitol you need to be in that part of the business?
MANY millions of dollars.
I hope he does make money.
If there''s no profit, then there''s no diamonds. Who wins then?


In terms of Y-Z, U-V, W-X, and even S-T stones- we see them all the time. The cutter I mentioned - and many others we deal with- accept GIA''s findings and sell at prices the market will bear.
They need to take a loss sometimes to get the money back, so they can buy more rough, hopefully to have a windfall.
It would not seem to make sense to simply hold onto Y-Z stones in the hope GIA will alter it''s view.

Rockdiamond, it is cheating when you work in the dark areas wanting a slight dip in the GIA system so you can sqeeze a lesser diamond in hoping to catch a dificiency (in the GIA system) instead of accepting what the stone really is.

Aswell, when the person spends their THOUSANDS of dollars for what they think is a facy stone and get it later reassessed it could very well show up as not fancy or a lower grade.

Been following this discussion with interest. I can''t afford fancy colored diamonds but they are very pretty and it is interesting to learn about them in case I am able to afford them one day.
It is kind of Rockdiamond to explain the system from the inside.
I am a little confused as to why his explanation about the recut to get a GIA ''fancy'' grade is surprising (and it seems upsetting). It seems to me that this is the same thing as everyone KNOWS occurs with diamonds that are just around the carat mark--that because of the $$$ difference, many cutters will make sure that a stone ends up weighing 1 carat rather than .95--even though as a .95 it will be a better cut stone than it is as a 1 carat.
Maybe I have this wrong though? Open to correction.

 

[elle_chris]

Date: 9/2/2009 3:30:58 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
HI elle,
Why does it always have to turn into a bash fest here?
No question there are dealers trying to use bad methods to get consumer's money- but having open honest conversations like this can help alleviate such occurrences.
Please remember that there are also many honest dealers. Do you want to drive those away?

uh, what exactly did i say that turned this into a bashfest?

From what I can see, nothing. I asked a question, you replied, and i said i can see how using one report over the other gives dealers a reason to charge more. How exactly is that a bashfest?

eta: I think you're looking too much into my reply.

 

[Rockdiamond]

AS usual, the appearance of Black Jade signals a return to decency- I can''t thank you- and glitterata- enough.
It seems to go well beyond diamonds here for some reason. I really start to loose faith in people after reading some of this stuff.
I know, I''m foolish- this is an internet forum- why expect anyone to be decent. But I do.


The logic being used to trash dealers here is insidious.
Is anyone making a profit a cheat?
Isn''t this a capitalist system?
If a person is smart enough, and works hard enough, they may become very successful- without ripping anyone off. What''s wrong with that?

 

[kenny]

Date: 9/2/2009 3:01:46 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 9/1/2009 11:31:46 PM

Author: kenny

Thanks David.


Could you please put two such diamonds face down side by side in the same pic with a white background? - you know - the way they evaluate color.


You are probably the only posting vendor with fast access to two such stones.


Please both rounds, one GIA WXY or Z and the other GIA natural fancy yellow.

Kenny- Fancy colors are graded differently than colorless- they are graded face up, not face down.


I do happen to have a photo of the Fancy Yellow in the face down position though.

Thanks
I just wanted to see an XYZ next to a fancy yellow upside down to compare color with both diamonds in the same pic with a white background.

I know fancies are graded face up.

Still, I just wanted to see an XYZ next to a fancy yellow upside down to compare color with both diamonds in the same pic with a white background.


If you can''t/ won''t or don''t have time do it no problem.

I''m real curious about how the yellow looks different.
Both diamonds must be in the same pic to compare.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 9/2/2009 3:15:56 PM
Author: elle_chris
Thanks for replying.

I can see why a dealer would prefer the color origin report. ''light yellow'' sounds better than ''y-z'' and they can overcharge as well. Good to know, thanks again.

HI elle,
You''re welcome.
Maybe I''m too sensitive, but when I explain something about a GIA report to be told that it''s a reason for dealers to "overcharge", it feels like a shot at people who may be doing nothing but charge a fair price, and honestly represent things.

If we use the example of dealers who know an EGL report is inaccurate, yet put a lot of effort into trying to get un-knowing consumers to believe what they know to be false information- that is dishonest.

elle- and EVERYONE else here- I don''t want to fight or cause any problems- I''d much rather have a friendly atmosphere.
In a healthy exchange of ideas, there should be differences of opinion.
If I''ve used harsh categorizations unnecessarily, I apologize.

It actually IS possible to share different ideas and not call each other names.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Kenny,
I f I do happen to get two stones in that will work for the photo you asked about, I will gladly do it.
I understand what you''d like to see, and I agree- it would be illuminating.