Paraiba Tourmoline - large stone - opinions please

[minousbijoux]

Sarah: I think the OP did answer you in her last thread and told the name of the jeweler (Of course I don't remember it though!)

 

[LD]

Gotcha!!!! Actually what you were being offered was not a Paraiba Tourmaline then! The thing that separates a "Paraiba" from other tourmalines is the colour staturation, neon quality and glow. If it doesn't have the "I look fake even thought I'm not" look then it's a regular Cuprian or non-Cuprian Tourmaline. Unfortunately unscrupulous sellers will pass off bog standard Tourmalines as "Paraiba" when they're nowhere near one! If you're buying a Paraiba Tourmaline look for colour, glow and neon first - clarity comes last but is important in determining a fair price.

LD,

I thought I had a picture of the stone and I finally found it. It had a god-awful cut, so I was going to have it precision-recut, in the hopes that it would make it look less pale...lol. Here's the stone. I can't figure out if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me though...about the cost/value of the Paraibas from Mozambique being lower/significantly lower than the Brazillian stones. I never bought this stone, as I didnt want to invest in the recut with its lack of saturation. This was long ago, when I thought a cutter could just "darken" a stone. While it would have closed up that window...partially, maybe, it would still be a pale pale stone. The cutter advised me not to even buy the thing. So I did not.[/quote]


Chris - glad you swerved on the stone! It's most definitely NOT a Paraiba tourmaline. It's a very pale, badly cut, normal tourmaline (that might be Cuprian if copper bearing but .........). I suspect even if that stone were to be recut, to get rid of that ENORMOUS window it would have ended up at a 10th of the size unless it was incredibly deep (which I doubt) and unfortunately I doubt whether that would ever achieve a Paraiba colour. So a good pass! If you had bought it, well, everybody has a few of the "why on earth did I buy that" stones!!!

Ok, so the prices of Brazilian -v- Mozambique material? Excellent world class Brazilian material will outstrip the same quality, same colour, same size stone from Mozambique BUT not by an enormous amount. Probably 30% more or so but that's a guess because it's so difficult to find two exact same stones from the different locations sold by the same vendor - it would be interesting though! However take an average quality Brazilian stone and a good Mozambique stone and the Mozambique will cost more. At the end of the day, colour, size, clarity wins out and then a premium is added IF Brazilian. It's impossible to say that all Brazilian Paraibas will outstrip Mozambique stones because that's absolutely not the case. There are good and bad stones from both locations and at the end of the day the quality will be the overriding factor.

Also, it's interesting but some collectors are not "precious" about Brazilian or Mozambique material - they simply buy the best. There are others that will only buy Brazilian. There was such a hoo haa as to whether the Mozambique material could be called Paraiba but it was decided that the chemical composition is exactly the same in both stones so the name Paraiba could apply to Mozambique stones. Some collectors accept that, others don't. The best stones are so rare that you buy what you can and IF it's Brazilian it's a nice bonus.

As I said earlier, so many stones are sold as Paraibas when they're not (due to their colour) and so many are sold as Brazilian when they're not. It's a way of pushing up prices OR attracting attention to a stone. It's very similar to Alexandrite where so much is sold as Russian when it's absolutely not!

 

[minousbijoux]

I used to think that if its cuprian from Africa it should have the "right" to be called Paraiba. But in my experience with these tourmalines, I would say that there are very few that I would consider at the level of glow and color of a real Brazilian Paraiba. So I play it safe and just call them cuprian or copper bearing. It is true that there are quality levels in both places and that some Mozambique material can be as good as Brazilian, but this has to be assessed on a case by case basis and there should not be any generalizations or assumptions about how one can be interchanged for the other. I realize that I'm just going off on a tangent, apropos of nothing...

 

[ChrisA222]

Interesting....

Since I'm "relatively" new to gemstones...compared to you folks, somewhere along the line an impression was made on me. That impression was that Mozambique "paraiba" tourmalines are nowhere near the same value, prestige, of the Brazillian stones. I am not talking physical beauty. I am talking the actual value and prestige of the stone. I thought I had actually read this...that a Moz. stone is worth 10% of what a comparable Brazillian stone is worth...that is if both were similar in 'stats'. Now do you see why I was having such a hard time with what you were saying?

Also, it was my understanding that a "paraiba" or "paraiba-type" Tourmaline was any Tourmaline that is colored by Copper and Manganese, and falls under the "blue", "greenish blue" or "Bluish green" color. Now, above TOurmaline that I almost bought...lets assume it was proven to be colored by Copper+Manganese. It is obviously some form of green/blue. I was never aware of any saturation requirement to be called a Paraiba Tourmaline or Paraiba type. So...now you guys are saying that there is a judgement call...it is subjective now which stone is called a "paraiba" or a "cuprian Tourmaline".?

Interesting stuff...Ive read a lot about this...some of it was obviously wrong if you guys are saying it is.

An an aside...I read something else which actually challenged all Moz Paraibas as being man-made. The article I read stated that those rutile-looking inclusions are used by man to inject copper into the stones somehow...which may or may not contribute to the stones color. If nothing else, it would allow the stone to pass the 'is it cuprian? is it paraiba? test.

This is all interesting stuff...and all I've done here is post some things that I thought were true...and some things that I'd read that I wasn't sure I believed. But the bottom line will always be that the Moz Paraibas dont have the same cache and perceived value as the Brazillian stones, for many people. I am not sure where I stand personally..I still need convincing that the stones are 100% legit, not man made/enhanced beyond just heating, etc.

Well, what do you all think of this?

 

[chrono]

Chris,

It all depends - I've seen some amazing Moz Paraiba where the colour can rival a fine Brazilian (but this is incredibly rare and still cannot quite reach the same intensity) and also some really pale Moz Paraiba where they are really better off known as cuprians due to the low level of glow and saturation. The same goes for the Nigerian stones but they don't hold a candle even to the Moz variety.

It's not just the composition but the look. If it doesn't have the fake look, it is a cuprian. If it looks radioactive, it is a Paraiba type tourmaline. Buy the stone, not the composition. If you look at the early Brazilian stones, they came in many colours ranging from green to blue to purple and all shades in between.

I have not seen any synthetic Moz paraibas but am aware of treaters trying to infuse copper into natural tourmalines in hope of getting a better outcome. So far, the result has not yielded anything attractive in appearance and is easy enough to spot.

Lab definition of Paraiba, pictures and also a chart showing how to determine origin using LA-ICP-MS
http://www.palagems.com/paraiba.htm

GIA's report on the Moz Paraiba growth tubes
http://www.gia.edu/nav/toolbar/newsroom/news-releases/2009-news-releases/lab-alert-pink-color-growth-tubes-copper-bearing-tourmalines.html

Copper Diffusion of tourmaline (check out the pics!)
www.gia.edu/research.../copper-diffusion-tourmaline-update.pdf
https://www.gia.edu/research-resources/.../2008_annual-index.pdf

 

[minousbijoux]

Well, what do you all think of this?

All of this says to me that you have probably yet to see a collector quality, Paraiba-like, pool water blue cuprian tourmaline from Mozambique. I think you might be blown away by the quality of some of these stones.

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Hello everybody,

I was surprised to see so many more posts on my thread. I guess I stirred up a big debate on what is true Paraiba Tourmaline. LD, your stones are gorgeous! The color of the pendant is fantastic. I can see there's a difference between the color of your stones and my stone.

This is all very educational for me so I will read these comments several times and try to retain as much as I can.

Sarahbear, yes I did answer you in my other thread. It's called Borgia.

Thank you all for all of your information and posts!

 

[ChrisA222]

Minous,

I was not talking beauty of the stone AT ALL! I was never debating the fact that Moz stones aren't as beautiful as the Brazillian stones. I have seen them, they are gorgeous! I was only speaking of thier value or cache. I was only relating what I had understood..that's all. It was obviously wrong, I am fine admitting that, I was only saying it is something that I read somewhere way back and to this day believed to be true. Thats all.

Chrono,

I had read that before, actually. Here is a snipit: consensus was finally reached in April. New gemstone identification reports will call all copper containing elbaite “paraíba tourmaline,” regardless of their origin.

And that is all fine and good, I was never debating that. What I am debating is that there is some subjective line between what you are all calling "cuprian" and "paraiba". I don't recall the definition making any mention of saturation level, glow, etc. According to the definition, if its the right color, and has copper/copper-manganese, than its Paraiba regardless of origin. If someone can find something that mentions a certain saturation requirement, please show me. This is all about me understanding and gaining knowlege...thats all. All this time I thought Moz Paraibas were worth far less than brazillian stones, and you guys have corrected me. But, I haven't seen anything that backs up the belief that there is a subjective line between what is considered a blue-ish green Cuprian Tourmaline, and a paraiba Tourmaline. Thats all Im trying to say

 

[LD]

Chris - you are right that it's subjective.

A tourmaline that is copper and manganese bearing can be called a Paraiba Tourmaline irrespective of locality AND on the face of it, irrespective of colour/saturation/neon glow.

HOWEVER, and this is where the subjective bit comes in, it is generally only the neon glowing stones that collectors, Paraiba lovers believe should be given the term "Paraiba". So look at it this way, what is the difference between a Cuprian and a Paraiba Tourmaline? Nothing in terms of general chemical composition (although there are slight differentiators that allow a lab to sometimes determine locality but not always). IMHO the "Paraiba" prestige title should be applied only to top colour/highly saturated glowing neon stones. All others stones are Cuprians. If you search articles on the net, you'll see that when the word Paraiba is used, the term neon normally follows! So whilst there is no official "it must be neon" this is generally understood to be the case.

Here's an example of one I own. Some would call this a Paraiba (and certainly the lab report states it is) but in my view it's just a bit lacking in saturation - not by much but if I compare it to my others it is. Other people may disagree! Whatever it is, it's a hunking piece of Tourmaline and I'm happy to call it Paraiba until somebody tells me I can't!

ETA: See this article http://gemwiseblogspotcom.blogspot.co.uk/2008/04/paraiba-tourmaline-controversy-goes-on.html Apparently LMHC information sheet 6 does define it as electric or neon!

The Laboratory Manual Harmonisation Committee (LMHC), consisting of reps from seven major gemstone laboratories, has implemented its reporting guidelines regarding “paraíba tourmaline” as of January 15, 2007, in Information Sheet #6.

The LMHC provides the following definition:

A paraíba tourmaline is a blue (electric blue, neon blue, violet blue), bluish green to greenish blue or green elbaite tourmaline, of medium to high saturation and tone, mainly due to the presence of copper (Cu) and manganese (Mn) of whatever geographical origin. The name of the tourmaline variety "paraíba" is derived from the Brazilian locality where this gemstone was first mined.

 

[ChrisA222]

Ld,

You know what? You are right. That stone you have, clearly not Paraiba. It is just a plain-old cuprian. Since its from Mozambique, its really not worth much...In fact, owning it is an insult to your well-earned reputation as having a great eye for top gems. What I suggest you do, is get rid of that thing, as quickly as possible. Ill tell you what, I'll do you a favor, and remove it from your possession. How does that sound??

 

[Barrett]

Paraibaaaaaaaa!!!

 

[txgreeneyes]

Oh, LD! That stone is beautiful!! (the one that is just a few posts above this one)