Paraiba Tourmoline - large stone - opinions please

[gemandjewelrylover]

I would like opinions on this Paraiba Tourmoline ring. It is from Brazil, but not from the Batalha mine, but the second mine, it seems the name may have had the word "rio" in it....I can't remember. It's a bit included - it has several tube inclusions. It came with a report from JGGL. In Japan they don't specify stone origin, but I was told that labs can tell by the makeup of the stone. The size is the big draw to it. Opinions on the color and if anyone has any guess to the ballpark value, I'd welcome them! Here are pictures:

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Sorry, more pictures, of ring in incandescent light and reports. (It's 11 carats)

 

[T L]

I've only seen tubes like that in African material. I would not pay a premium for Brazilian material without a lab report from AGL that specifies origin. That being said, the original mine is where the most expensive material was from, so I would still not pay a premium for anything less than a stone coming from that mine, even if it were from Brazil.

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Thank you for that....what would consider a premium?

 

[T L]

Thank you for that....what would consider a premium?

Well for now, assuming it's African (Mozambique probably), and it's heavily included, and who knows if it's fracture filled, it's hard to say. You can look at paraibainternational.com for retail prices on similar African stones.

They're fracture filling these stones quite a bit these days from what I understand, so that has to be taken into account, and an AGL lab report would be able to say for sure.

 

[LD]

Completely agree with TL. It's doubtful this is Brazilian material based on the size, it's being sold without an AGL report with origin stated. I wouldn't pay for Brazilian material unless there was an origin report. I have a number of very similar stones and the colour of yours is good, the size great but it's highly included which would put off some potential buyers.

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Thank you TL and LD,

Since I am in Japan, getting AGL reports is hard at the moment. When I go back for a visit, I'll see about getting one. That's why it' came with that JGGL grading report. The gem dealer has been in business for about 20 years, and he said that this was old Brazilian Paraiba, he has had it for a long time. If it was indeed old Brazilian paraiba, based on the chemical makeup of the stone provided on my report, would AGL (or any pricescopers) be able to tell? And with the florescence and shortwave and long wave and those kind of things?
I was told that those were the most important things, that and the graph that shows the amount of copper in it and other chemicals in it.
Yes, I'm new at this, and trying to learn.

For a stone of this size (11.09 ct) and color, even though it is included, and if it were from Mozambique, would it be worth $5000? And how about if it were from Brazil? Opinions/guesses welcome.

Thank you!

 

[LD]

If you are buying it for $5000 there's something wrong. It's even more wrong if it's Brazilian. There's no way an 11ct Brazilian stone would sell for as little as that included or not. I'm afraid I'm highly suspicious. If you're going to buy it you should do so conditional on an AGL report.

Nobody can tell from photos with 100% accuracy the origin of a stone. Only lab tests can do that.

If I were to analyse this without emotion I would say that it's from Mozambique and based on the selling price I would be highly highly worried that it had been heavily treated.

I also wouldn't trust what the seller says. Unless he can provide you proof that this is Brazilian then it's just words. Our motto here is trust but verify!

$5k for a cuprian tourmaline of that colour and size is the sort of deal seen 10-15 years ago - not now. If its a regular cuprian from Mozambique it's still a fantastic price but if it's treated ....... That's another story.

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Hi LD,

Thank you for your insight and information. I think the next time I go to the states I'll take it with me and have any AGL report done.
I did include the lab report that I got on it, is there not enough information on that to tell anything? I know that it's very difficult to tell about stones from still pictures.

Just out of curiosity, about how much do AGL reports run? And they would be able to tell the location of the origin of the stone?

Thanks for bearing with me, as I said I'm a newbie.

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

I just looked at the AGL website. Wow, the top report is pricey. There is the origin report,and then the next one up, the grading report.
Which one should I get? The grading report for this size of a stone is almost $700 - is it worth the extra money?

Thank you

 

[colorluvr]

I just looked at the AGL website. Wow, the top report is pricey. There is the origin report,and then the next one up, the grading report.
Which one should I get? The grading report for this size of a stone is almost $700 - is it worth the extra money?

Thank you

Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you can request a more simple report until you find out if the stone has been treated. If it has not been treated, then I would request an origin report so you'll know. If it does turn out to be not treated AND from one of the Brazillian mines (can AGL tell which mine - sorry, I'm not aware if they can) or if they just state "Brazillian" then you can decide if you want to pay the extra money for the full report. It doesn't make sense to me to request a full report at first, until you know what you have.

I am going to send some "hopefully" cuprian cabs that I have and ask first for a simple report to verify no treatment, and if none, then request an origin report. I doubt mine are from Brazil, but I am curious enough (assuming no treatment) to pay the extra to get origin. I don't do that with most stones.

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Hi colorLuvr,

Thank you for your post. That makes good sense, to just verify if it's a natural stone or not, and then go from there. I'm very interested in whether the stone is from Brazil or not. It'll be a little while before I get back to the states, so I guess I have a lot of time to think about it. LOL

Thanks for your advice!

 

[T L]

Thank you TL and LD,

Since I am in Japan, getting AGL reports is hard at the moment. When I go back for a visit, I'll see about getting one. That's why it' came with that JGGL grading report. The gem dealer has been in business for about 20 years, and he said that this was old Brazilian Paraiba, he has had it for a long time. If it was indeed old Brazilian paraiba, based on the chemical makeup of the stone provided on my report, would AGL (or any pricescopers) be able to tell? And with the florescence and shortwave and long wave and those kind of things?
I was told that those were the most important things, that and the graph that shows the amount of copper in it and other chemicals in it.
Yes, I'm new at this, and trying to learn.

For a stone of this size (11.09 ct) and color, even though it is included, and if it were from Mozambique, would it be worth $5000? And how about if it were from Brazil? Opinions/guesses welcome.

Thank you!

I would email the AGL lab with the questions in your second paragraph before committing to the pricey report.

 

[T L]

Hi colorLuvr,

Thank you for your post. That makes good sense, to just verify if it's a natural stone or not, and then go from there. I'm very interested in whether the stone is from Brazil or not. It'll be a little while before I get back to the states, so I guess I have a lot of time to think about it. LOL

Thanks for your advice!

I don't think anyone here doubts its a natural stone, however, we have some major concerns on the level of treatment (mainly fillers). That does affect value.

I do think it is a very pretty stone, and I like it, but as LD said, the heavy inclusions, and probably many surface reaching fractures, probably would put people off.

 

[ChrisA222]

I would suggest doing some research...I believe those inclusions were found mainly in the Mozambique Cuprian Tourmalines. From what I've read..they have been called many things, even "diagnostic inclusions". There are all different views on what they are, and I've even read that they were used to insert copper into regular tourmalines to give them the rights to be called "paraiba". I am not saying this is fact, just saying some of the things I have read. There is a ton of information on the web..just google "needles in Paraiba Touramline" or "mozambique Tourmaline".

Getting it to a lab is always a good choice, but can they prove if the copper was there before or after?

These types of stones are available in pretty large sizes for not a ton of money...I own several of them. Just have to know what you are buying...

Good luck!!

 

[LD]

I would suggest doing some research...I believe those inclusions were found mainly in the Mozambique Cuprian Tourmalines. From what I've read..they have been called many things, even "diagnostic inclusions". There are all different views on what they are, and I've even read that they were used to insert copper into regular tourmalines to give them the rights to be called "paraiba". I am not saying this is fact, just saying some of the things I have read. There is a ton of information on the web..just google "needles in Paraiba Touramline" or "mozambique Tourmaline".

Getting it to a lab is always a good choice, but can they prove if the copper was there before or after?

These types of stones are available in pretty large sizes for not a ton of money...I own several of them. Just have to know what you are buying...

Good luck!!

Really? Where? I've collected cuprian/paraiba tourmalines for 20 years and haven't seen ANY that size and colour for years! The colour is very good on that stone. There are smaller less saturated stones on the market but the colour on this one really stands out AND it's 11ct.

 

[chrono]

The tourmaline looks very much like the Mozambique variety - I don't think I've seen the Brazilian variety showing the copper tubes. You have several things that need to be verified first:

1. Has it been treated? Paraibas are now oiled and / or fracture filled. These treatments are not usually disclosed and I've just heard that some labs do not even make note of it, so it is very important for you to be very selective in your lab choice. Although oiling sounds minor, it looks quite scary if you see it unoiled. It only improves the clarity but gives the stone a brilliant, shiny appearance that is far more attractive than without.

2. If AGL is able to determine that it is indeed untreated, then you can request an "upgrade" of sorts to determine origin. There is a hefty premium for the Brazilian origin, especially the original mine. Not so sure if the secondary mine has a premium but I would not be surprised to hear of one.

3. Glow is another important factor. Does it look like it has an internal battery? Can you spot the stone from across the room? Does it look radioactive? Just because a stone is copper bearing doesn't mean it's a good quality Paraiba.

 

[T L]

Just so you know, there's a 99.99999% chance it's been heated, which is acceptable for cuprians, or paraiba tourmalines. However, fracture filling is another story, and that's more important to find out.

 

[ChrisA222]

LD, I was offered a Paraiba from Mozambique...6.85cts for under $300. It had those needles...granted, its not 11cts, and it was NOT that saturated, it was a pretty pale color, but I was just keeping things in perspective. $5k for an 11ct paraiba tourmaline IS inexpensive, very inexpensive. That is why I made that comment, LD. The 'inexpensive, I have several of them" are all included with those needles, and are mostly around 1-1.5cts. But those stones were all under $50 a piece.

I was really trying to say, compared to the Brazillian stones, the Mozambique stones with those needles are ridiculously inexpensive. You couldn't buy a 1ct Brazillian stone for $5k, if it is clean and vividly saturated.

Sorry if we miscommunicated...my bad, I've had a rough day (did you read my post about that Tanzanite that did a Mexican-Jumping-Bean impression?? LOL

 

[txgreeneyes]

I have never heard of a paraiba tourmaline until I found PS. It's a very beautiful ring! Wear it in good health!!

 

[minousbijoux]

I would say that you can definitely find mediocre to medium quality, cuprian stones from Africa of small size on ebay and elsewhere. I have yet to see one any where near that size and what looks to be that saturation of color for anything close to an inexpensive price.

Personally, I wouldn't mind getting a cuprian stone with visible copper needles as a novelty, but I would never spend thousands on one, even if it had the exceptional color, and I would not call the color of the OP's stone exceptional. I think the color on the OP's stone is very nice and saturated, but still not top color for paraibas.

So I too doubt its from Brazil, but it does have exceptional size and good color going for it, if not clarity. I honestly wouldn't know how to price it due to its visible needles, but call me crazy, I don't think its worth $5K if its not from Brazil, and if it is, its worth so much more than $5K even with the needles...

 

[minousbijoux]

GemandJewelryLover: please take this in the good way its intended. Perhaps you might consider slowing down and doing some research before you purchase colored stones. It appears that each time you post, it is because you have a stone in hand from a jeweler in Japan and you want to know whether its worth it, whatever "it" is. It is great that you want to learn and that you are posting these questions (and in the process, helping out others as well). But my concern is that you are wanting to purchase not because you have fallen in love, but because you have been told that the stone is worth something, or is rare and collectible, or is a "deal." Please just buy what you like and take the time before you purchase, to learn a bit about what you are considering purchasing. There are resources everywhere to learn about colored stones. Good luck to you!

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Hi, everyone,

Thank you for all of your comments. It's true I am new to colored stones - always loved them but never bought anything substantial before. Minousbijoux ( hope that's right), I understand what you are saying, and it's good advice. From what I hear, gem prices in Japan are some of the lowest at the moment (of course not at malls or dept stores), and Japanese are very picky and demand high quality, so I feel like it's a good chance for me to pick up some nice pieces. But I completely agree with you, your advice is sound. It's nice to have a forum like PS where you can get unbiased opinions and help, so I've been taking advantage of it.

I do feel my gem dealer is honest and wouldn't deliberately mislead me, but as LD said, trust and verify. So I will get the AGL report when I have a chance to. My gem dealer isn't going anywhere and I'm sure he'd be fair with me if the report came back showing fillers and treatments.

My problem is I fall in love with all the stones! Lol. So I go for what I love that's the best deal. I'm reading whatever I can on stones and trying to learn so I can become a very educated and savvy buyer....thank you all for your help in that end too!

To Chrono, yes, it does have good glow from across the room.

Thank you all for your help!

 

[minousbijoux]

I know what its like to fall in love and just want to go for it! If you are in a position to do it, great. But my concern is that you think that you somehow are getting a great deal. You may or you may not, but you shouldn't buy because of that, but because you love it, pure and simple. Of course I'm saying this because I regret not having followed my own advice early on. Enough said!

My other rule of thumb for paraiba/cuprian stones is to see if they glow in really low light. I like to test them in areas of low light - under the dining room table or a desk, in a closet, at night in the car where the only light is from streetlights and/or periodic headlights - and see how much they glow. They are the only stones I know that appear lit from within with that glow in these conditions. I keep two of mine in a bank safe deposit box. Periodically, when I'm making changes to my collection, I'll get out the paraibas and put them where its really dark under the built in desks in the bank cubicles and even there, they have that glow...I love it!

 

[lindacat]

I would not even care about what the country of origin was - ths stone is so included and badly cut that I would not have spent $100 for it. Just my opinion.

 

[LD]

I thought you might be interested in seeing these photos. The first one is of my very first Paraiba Tourmaline! Does it look familiar? I think it looks incredibly like the one you're considering. As you can see it's HIGHLY included but it was the neon glow that grabbed me. I can't remember now but I think this one is 2.8ct

Now compare it to the pendant. As you can see the colour is better and so is the clarity. The pendant is about the same size as the ring BUT if I were to sell them, the pendant would be far more sought after because of the better clarity. At arms length the pendant looks almost clean. The ring doesn't. I've attached a close up of the pendant so you can see the inclusions but you can see how fewer there are.

 

[LD]

LD, I was offered a Paraiba from Mozambique...6.85cts for under $300. It had those needles...granted, its not 11cts, and it was NOT that saturated, it was a pretty pale color, but I was just keeping things in perspective. $5k for an 11ct paraiba tourmaline IS inexpensive, very inexpensive. That is why I made that comment, LD. The 'inexpensive, I have several of them" are all included with those needles, and are mostly around 1-1.5cts. But those stones were all under $50 a piece.

I was really trying to say, compared to the Brazillian stones, the Mozambique stones with those needles are ridiculously inexpensive. You couldn't buy a 1ct Brazillian stone for $5k, if it is clean and vividly saturated.

Sorry if we miscommunicated...my bad, I've had a rough day (did you read my post about that Tanzanite that did a Mexican-Jumping-Bean impression?? LOL

Gotcha!!!! Actually what you were being offered was not a Paraiba Tourmaline then! The thing that separates a "Paraiba" from other tourmalines is the colour staturation, neon quality and glow. If it doesn't have the "I look fake even thought I'm not" look then it's a regular Cuprian or non-Cuprian Tourmaline. Unfortunately unscrupulous sellers will pass off bog standard Tourmalines as "Paraiba" when they're nowhere near one! If you're buying a Paraiba Tourmaline look for colour, glow and neon first - clarity comes last but is important in determining a fair price.

 

[SB621]

Hi there! I think I might have posted this question in one of your other threads so please excuse me if this is a repeat. I lived in Japan for three years, actually just moved back last year, and did lots of gem shopping and some buying in Japan and Hong Kong. Yes somethings are cheaper there but they are for a reason. In my expereince it was usually badly cut/ windowed. I know for sure I made a lot of purchasing mistakes before PS Do you mind me asking what vendor you use in Japan. I had 5 that I was regular with and I'm curious. Out of the 5 I felt only 1 actually knew what he was talking about.

 

[ChrisA222]

Gotcha!!!! Actually what you were being offered was not a Paraiba Tourmaline then! The thing that separates a "Paraiba" from other tourmalines is the colour staturation, neon quality and glow. If it doesn't have the "I look fake even thought I'm not" look then it's a regular Cuprian or non-Cuprian Tourmaline. Unfortunately unscrupulous sellers will pass off bog standard Tourmalines as "Paraiba" when they're nowhere near one! If you're buying a Paraiba Tourmaline look for colour, glow and neon first - clarity comes last but is important in determining a fair price.[/quote]


LD,

I thought I had a picture of the stone and I finally found it. It had a god-awful cut, so I was going to have it precision-recut, in the hopes that it would make it look less pale...lol. Here's the stone. I can't figure out if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me though...about the cost/value of the Paraibas from Mozambique being lower/significantly lower than the Brazillian stones. I never bought this stone, as I didnt want to invest in the recut with its lack of saturation. This was long ago, when I thought a cutter could just "darken" a stone. While it would have closed up that window...partially, maybe, it would still be a pale pale stone. The cutter advised me not to even buy the thing. So I did not.

 

[minousbijoux]

LD: As usual, beautiful stones. I wanted to point out that even your ring IMO, is darker in tone and more saturated than the OP's. I still think yours are in a different league.

Chris: it appears that you are talking about tourmaline that have copper in them. Yes, these can have that glow, but they are definitely not in the same league, not the same as the intense, "pool water blue," paraibas like LD's (and the cuprian ones I have stored at the bank).