Paraiba Tourmaline Question

[LD]

Ah well, at least we tried.

DK

+1

 

[jordyonbass]

Just received a reply from a reputable GIA graduate who specializes in studying tourmaline, ruby and sapphire. He said my mother's ring is a PT and a beautiful neon color with enough saturation. For the other one, he said it could be a violet blue PT but they are very rare to find in a large size. Thanks for all replies, sayonara!

Really? Would you care to share which GIA graduate or where they are located? Shouldn't be an issue as you've stated the graduate is reputable, correct?

This stone does not look anything like a PT to my newbie eye and it apparently doesn't look like one to the more experienced members of this forum who purchase and are genuine PT enthusiasts. If there is some kind of criteria that we are all missing that has determined this to be a PT then we would all be very keen to learn more

 

[minousbijoux]

I sincerely doubt we will hear from the OP again. They apparently didn't hear what they were hoping for, found a GIA graduate who agrees with their assessment of the stones, and is happy to leave it there without further credible analysis. Seems to be the end of the story.

 

[Tourmaline]

My guess is that this was pure fraud from someone trying to sell his or her irradiated topaz as something else, and that there was no GIA graduate involved.

 

[P10431]

My guess is that this was pure fraud from someone trying to sell his or her irradiated topaz as something else, and that there was no GIA graduate involved.

How dare you accuse me of fraud? I simply came on this forum to ask questions since it's open to the public to do so. I was not trying to sell anything! I will not return again to be insulted by people who don't even know what they are talking about and don't know me. By the way, I have nothing to proof to anyone. Indeed, I had respect for the people on this forum because I thought I was dealing with professionals who were willing to help, not insult. I'm in shock at this type of behavior. Thanks for the insult!

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

My guess is that this was pure fraud from someone trying to sell his or her irradiated topaz as something else, and that there was no GIA graduate involved.

How dare you accuse me of fraud? I simply came on this forum to ask questions since it's open to the public to do so. I was not trying to sell anything! I will not return again to be insulted by people who don't even know what they are talking about and don't know me. By the way, I have nothing to proof to anyone. Indeed, I had respect for the people on this forum because I thought I was dealing with professionals who were willing to help, not insult. I'm in shock at this type of behavior. Thanks for the insult!

P10431- I don't believe you are a fraud. I know you are new to the colored stone forum but see you have requested advice before regarding diamonds. Please stick around a bit. The posters on this forum are very experienced and you have received good advice on what to look for regarding a paraiba tourmaline. It's all about that neon glow and they only have your pictures to help evaluate the stone. As suggested- AGL will tell you exactly what stone you have and it is not very expensive to get a lab report.

 

[LD]

My guess is that this was pure fraud from someone trying to sell his or her irradiated topaz as something else, and that there was no GIA graduate involved.

How dare you accuse me of fraud? I simply came on this forum to ask questions since it's open to the public to do so. I was not trying to sell anything! I will not return again to be insulted by people who don't even know what they are talking about and don't know me. By the way, I have nothing to proof to anyone. Indeed, I had respect for the people on this forum because I thought I was dealing with professionals who were willing to help, not insult. I'm in shock at this type of behavior. Thanks for the insult!

Stick around please. You have to understand that you're insisting you have two large Paraiba Tourmalines when you don't. Unfortunately lots of people come here hoping to hear they have a valuable stone when they don't and I realise it can be a bitter pill to swallow. What I would love you to do is get one (or both) of your stones assessed by AGL (NOT GIA - GIA are good for diamonds, AGL are good for coloured stones) and then come back and post the results. I would STRONGLY urge you to ignore the advice of the GIA graduate because they are seriously wrong and out of their depth if their advice is that your stones are Paraibas. It also worries me intensely that they've managed to pass any sort of examination with their lack of knowledge. Perhaps once you have the AGL lab reports you'll come back to us with a more open mind and we can help you with other things? Trust me, nobody wants to say "sorry you don't have a valuable stone" but we don't want to give you false hope either.

You may choose to believe your GIA graduate but on this forum you have collectors, lapidarists, consumers, enthusiasts and those with gemmological qualifications of many many many years knowledge behind them. If anybody had any doubt that you MIGHT have a Paraiba they most definitely would have chimed in. Occasionally a photo causes a healthy debate but you can see that everybody who commented was on the same lines. Please please please get your stones checked out and let us know how you get on. x

 

[P10431]

That gives you no ground to insult or accuse anyone. Seriously, this is so childlish...So what if I insisted that I have two large Paraiba Tourmalines. And so what if I do have two large tourmalines. Is this impossible to have? They sale them at auction houses and other places. If this is your way of helping another person comprehend then you misunderstand the integrity of life. I have much better things to do than to be upset just because you said they are not tourmalines. I'm not a child and you are not dealing with an imbecile. I will not come back with any information on this forum for you are not that important to me as you make yourself out to be. I rest my case!

 

[GregS]

That gives you no ground to insult or accuse anyone. Seriously, this is so childlish...So what if I insisted that I have two large Paraiba Tourmalines. And so what if I do have two large tourmalines. Is this impossible to have? They sale them at auction houses and other places. If this is your way of helping another person comprehend then you misunderstand the integrity of life. I have much better things to do than to be upset just because you said they are not tourmalines. I'm not a child and you are not dealing with an imbecile. I will not come back with any information on this forum for you are not that important to me as you make yourself out to be. I rest my case!

Sayonara

 

[jordyonbass]

That gives you no ground to insult or accuse anyone. Seriously, this is so childlish...So what if I insisted that I have two large Paraiba Tourmalines. And so what if I do have two large tourmalines. Is this impossible to have? They sale them at auction houses and other places. If this is your way of helping another person comprehend then you misunderstand the integrity of life. I have much better things to do than to be upset just because you said they are not tourmalines. I'm not a child and you are not dealing with an imbecile. I will not come back with any information on this forum for you are not that important to me as you make yourself out to be. I rest my case!

They could very well be Tourmalines, they just aren't Paraiba Tourmaline. There's plenty of things that your stones could be my friend, we're just letting you know that it definitely is not a PT by simply the colour we can see in the pics provided - and color is the key to stone type and value in the CS world. If the stone really is a PT then the pics you have taken are not very indicative of the true color, which is something you should have probably noticed before you uploaded them and something you cannot hold against the posters of this forum as we can only go by what you are showing us. But you mentioned as well that one of the PTs had violet - something I have never heard of or seen in PT and something that I am sure would then take away the Paraiba qualification.

It's like how a corundum that is red is a ruby, yet any other color is a sapphire. If someone had a stone that was any color but red and was calling it a ruby then we would have the same reaction. We may be speculating to what it is but just by the color alone we can definitely tell you what it isn't, and in this case it defintely isn't a true Paraiba.

There is no need to be upset.

 

[ElleK]

Unheated copper bearing tourmaline can be a violet color. Typically violet or purple copper-bearing tourmalines are heated to produce the neon blues and greens we are used to seeing.

http://www.gia.edu/gems-gemology/spring-2008-copper-bearing-tourmaline-mozambique-laurs

The stones exhibit a wide range of colors, typically pink to purple, violet to blue, and blue to green or yellowish green.

I cannot make any assessments based on a couple of pictures (that have since disappeared), but I sincerely hope that the OP takes that GIA person's opinions with a large grain of salt, and at the very least get an RI on them both, as well as an in person examination by someone with experience in colored stones.

However, I would suggest getting an AGL Brief if they pass the RI test, so that you know definitively what you have, not just for your knowledge, but also because if these are paraiba tourmalines, or even just copper bearing, you would want them to be properly insured for their value. If they are PT, they would be very, very valuable and should be treated and insured as such.

 

[P10431]

They could very well be Tourmalines, they just aren't Paraiba Tourmaline. There's plenty of things that your stones could be my friend, we're just letting you know that it definitely is not a PT by simply the colour we can see in the pics provided - and color is the key to stone type and value in the CS world. If the stone really is a PT then the pics you have taken are not very indicative of the true color, which is something you should have probably noticed before you uploaded them and something you cannot hold against the posters of this forum as we can only go by what you are showing us. But you mentioned as well that one of the PTs had violet - something I have never heard of or seen in PT and something that I am sure would then take away the Paraiba qualification.

It's like how a corundum that is red is a ruby, yet any other color is a sapphire. If someone had a stone that was any color but red and was calling it a ruby then we would have the same reaction. We may be speculating to what it is but just by the color alone we can definitely tell you what it isn't, and in this case it defintely isn't a true Paraiba.

There is no need to be upset.

You wrote: 'But you mentioned as well that one of the PTs had violet - something I have never heard of or seen in PT and something that I am sure would then take away the Paraiba qualification." Have you not heard about violetish blue Paraiba Tourmaline...This type of Paraíba tourmaline's vivid violetish blue hue that rivals the finest sapphires?
***With all due respect, I now question your connoisseurship.

 

[jordyonbass]

They could very well be Tourmalines, they just aren't Paraiba Tourmaline. There's plenty of things that your stones could be my friend, we're just letting you know that it definitely is not a PT by simply the colour we can see in the pics provided - and color is the key to stone type and value in the CS world. If the stone really is a PT then the pics you have taken are not very indicative of the true color, which is something you should have probably noticed before you uploaded them and something you cannot hold against the posters of this forum as we can only go by what you are showing us. But you mentioned as well that one of the PTs had violet - something I have never heard of or seen in PT and something that I am sure would then take away the Paraiba qualification.

It's like how a corundum that is red is a ruby, yet any other color is a sapphire. If someone had a stone that was any color but red and was calling it a ruby then we would have the same reaction. We may be speculating to what it is but just by the color alone we can definitely tell you what it isn't, and in this case it defintely isn't a true Paraiba.

There is no need to be upset.

You wrote: 'But you mentioned as well that one of the PTs had violet - something I have never heard of or seen in PT and something that I am sure would then take away the Paraiba qualification." Have you not heard about violetish blue Paraiba Tourmaline...This type of Paraíba tourmaline's vivid violetish blue hue that rivals the finest sapphires?
***With all due respect, I now question your connoisseurship.

That's fine if you want to question it, but if you had paid a bit of attention to what posters were saying in your thread then you will notice that I didn't claim to be any kind of connoisseur, in fact quite the opposite - I claimed right from the start of this thread that I am a newbie (in fact I have never made that secret on PS):

This stone does not look anything like a PT to my newbie eye and it apparently doesn't look like one to the more experienced members of this forum

If you are genuine about the GIA graduate looking at your stones and assessing them as PT then fantastic; report on what his findings of the stones are for educational purposes and let us know who looked at it since he clearly knows a lot more than this forum does. I would be very interested in learning more from such a cutting edge and knowledgable-yet-unnamed person who is able to make such assessments with validity despite so many people disagreeing with his decision. Surely this should not be an issue?

 

[LD]

That gives you no ground to insult or accuse anyone. Seriously, this is so childlish...So what if I insisted that I have two large Paraiba Tourmalines. And so what if I do have two large tourmalines. Is this impossible to have? They sale them at auction houses and other places. If this is your way of helping another person comprehend then you misunderstand the integrity of life. I have much better things to do than to be upset just because you said they are not tourmalines. I'm not a child and you are not dealing with an imbecile. I will not come back with any information on this forum for you are not that important to me as you make yourself out to be. I rest my case!

Woah! You don't hear what you want to hear and then throw your teddy out of the cot? If that's not childish behaviour, I don't know what is. Please shut the door on the way out.

 

[OTL]

Not PT. Treated Topaz.
And yes, that other stone from OP's another thread about blue tourmaline questions is also a topaz.
Period.

 

[T L]

It could be irradiated blue fluorite too, as it appears to have a waxy luster if the photos are accurate.

It could be a synthetic stone too as they are very large and clean.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

To correctly label a tourmaline as Paraiba or cuprian, it is necessary to conduct a spectography test to identify the presence of copper ions. Without the copper, a tourmaline would be just an elbaite or indicolite, not cuprian. This equipment is seriously expensive and not something found outside of a lab. This is why it sounds unlikely that a reputable gemologist would look at a stone and positively identify it as Paraiba.

Cuprian is typically included and forms small crystals, so a +10 carat (my guess from your pictures) very clean stone would probably be valued at over $100,000. Not the kind of stone that is set in a pretty generic, commercial setting or that ends up unnoticed in an antique shop.

 

[Ella]

Ok everyone, please stop the rude replies all around, you all know this isn't what PS is about.

 

[Arcadian]

Op, the best thing to do is to be totally sure. Send the stones to GIA or AGL or any independent lab and get them truly independently tested.

There's a saying around there on the forums; "trust but verify". The graduate gemologist may be totally right, BUT, you likely will do better knowing for sure, getting them truly independently tested with a report that says exactly what they are.

That will be my suggestion to you where this stone is concerned. I don't like to go by pictures because they can be proven to be wrong, but because that's all you put up there, I can't say it looks like a copper bearing tourmaline to me.

 

[P10431]

Op, the best thing to do is to be totally sure. Send the stones to GIA or AGL or any independent lab and get them truly independently tested.

There's a saying around there on the forums; "trust but verify". The graduate gemologist may be totally right, BUT, you likely will do better knowing for sure, getting them truly independently tested with a report that says exactly what they are.

That will be my suggestion to you where this stone is concerned. I don't like to go by pictures because they can be proven to be wrong, but because that's all you put up there, I can't say it looks like a copper bearing tourmaline to me.

Thank you for the response! Copper is electrically conductive. Therefore, I will have it tested for copper and then send it to the lab if it's necessary.

 

[lovedogs]

I would say that sending it to a lab will yield faster and more reliable results than testing it for copper and then sending to a lab. Just my thoughts though.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

I am not sure the copper concentration in Paraibas are enough to measurably alter the conductivity. Most are between 0.05 and 1%, if I am not mistaken.

 

[chrono]

Copper is electrically conductive. Therefore, I will have it tested for copper and then send it to the lab if it's necessary.

Why are you doing all sorts of crazy things? If you don't want to listen to our advice, then just send the stone to GIA or AGL already. There isn't enough copper that it can be detected by normal means.

 

[P10431]

With all due respect, this is my last post because I rest my case on this topic.

 

[lovedogs]

Copper is electrically conductive. Therefore, I will have it tested for copper and then send it to the lab if it's necessary.

Why are you doing all sorts of crazy things? If you don't want to listen to our advice, then just send the stone to GIA or AGL already. There isn't enough copper that it can be detected by normal means.

+10000000!!!!!

 

[minousbijoux]

Op, the best thing to do is to be totally sure. Send the stones to GIA or AGL or any independent lab and get them truly independently tested.

There's a saying around there on the forums; "trust but verify". The graduate gemologist may be totally right, BUT, you likely will do better knowing for sure, getting them truly independently tested with a report that says exactly what they are.

That will be my suggestion to you where this stone is concerned. I don't like to go by pictures because they can be proven to be wrong, but because that's all you put up there, I can't say it looks like a copper bearing tourmaline to me.

Thank you for the response! Copper is electrically conductive. Therefore, I will have it tested for copper and then send it to the lab if it's necessary.

So be aware that even if the stone is a copper bearing tourmaline, and even if it has enough copper to register, this by no means indicates its a Paraiba; the vast majority of cuprian tourmalines are not Paraiba - neither in origin, nor in appearance.

 

[LD]

If it was as easy as testing for copper at home then why would people send anything to a lab? To test for copper in a stone it takes an incredibly expensive machine. It wouldn't have been designed if we could test at home.

This is not just about does it have copper or not. The chemical make up of a copper bearing tourmaile (Cuprian) is a definite mix of different materials so first your stones have to have that mix just to be called a Cuprian. IF they have copper then the next stage is "do they have the neon glow associated with Paraibas" and the answer in the two stones you posted is "no" but you clearly don't believe us and from your first post you've been urged to send the stones to AGL to get a definitive answer.

Lastly, please do some research as to how much an eye clean (and at a guess 10ct) Paraiba Tourmaline x 2 (which is what you say you have) would be worth. To have one is incredibly lucky - to have two is almost impossible. In fact to find 2 x 10ct eye clean Paraibas in anybody's collection is exceptionally unique.

There is another forum that has Geology in the name. Perhaps post on there as well and ask for opinions.

 

[LD]

You may find this helpful. Somebody asked IGS (the International Gem Society) whether you could accurately identify copper in a Paraiba Tourmaline outside of a lab and you can see the question and answer here:

https://www.gemsociety.org/forums/topic/paraiba-or-copper-bearing-tourmaline-how-can-i-know/

 

[Lovinggems]

Looks like an irradiated topaz? It also lacks glow.

 

[T L]

To the OP,
The other benefit to getting an AGL lab brief or gem report (the former is less expensive), is that it's highly regarded in the trade, and will add to the value of your gem. If it truly is a world class valuable paraiba tourmaline, or any valuable gem, I would want to get an AGL lab report even if I knew 100% certain it was what it was. It is very beneficial. At major auction houses, AGL provides lab reports for some of the most famous gems in the world, such as the Elizabeth Taylor collection. Everyone knew those gems were real and were what they were, but the lab report is essential to attest to their value. Paraiba tourmalines are also commonly treated with fillers these days, and AGL would be able to determine that as well.

Don't waste time and just send it off. It can't hurt at all. A lab brief is not super expensive if you don't want to go for the full out report.