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Paper Tricks with Culet Size

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DBM

Shiny_Rock
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404
As the general public becomes more educated with diamond specs and information on certificates become more important in the diamond purchase, manufacturers of diamonds have more priority to ensure the certificate (or "paper") look good possibly at the expense of the stone''s beauty.

an associate had just pointed this out to me recently in regard to culet size of fancy shapes (it''s not so applicable by rounds i don''t think): say you have a cushion cut that is a little "deep" numberwise. If you lop off the bottom of the culet and go for a small or medium sized culet instead of a pointed culet of NONE you''ve just shaved off some numbers from the "depth" of the stone right there. the stone is the same but the numbers on the certificate just look nicer and you have a culet hole. == uglier stone but nicer certificate.

just coming to point out something, not looking to force an opinion. Cheers
 

:)

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 25, 2006
Messages
1,864
Wow - That''s good to know - I love cushions, so I need to keep this in mind in case I ever get one - Thanks for the info
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
You do know that the traditional cutting guides for cushions and oec call for large to ex-large culets right?
It was considered a duribility issue and one with a pointed culet was less desireable.
So if your cutting traditional style stones they should be large.

As a bonus for the cutter it allows a little more weight to be left in the pavilion they arent usualy cut pointed then ground off.
Doing so has a high risk of breaking a chunk off the stone.

It is interesting how much mis-information is floating around about these cuts.
 

:)

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 25, 2006
Messages
1,864
Storm, I thought that you could get cushions both ways, the older style and those without a culet - No?
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Jun 29, 2006
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Date: 1/3/2007 8:12:54 PM
Author:DBM
As the general public becomes more educated with diamond specs and information on certificates become more important in the diamond purchase, manufacturers of diamonds have more priority to ensure the certificate (or ''paper'') look good possibly at the expense of the stone''s beauty.

an associate had just pointed this out to me recently in regard to culet size of fancy shapes (it''s not so applicable by rounds i don''t think): say you have a cushion cut that is a little ''deep'' numberwise. If you lop off the bottom of the culet and go for a small or medium sized culet instead of a pointed culet of NONE you''ve just shaved off some numbers from the ''depth'' of the stone right there. the stone is the same but the numbers on the certificate just look nicer and you have a culet hole. == uglier stone but nicer certificate.

just coming to point out something, not looking to force an opinion. Cheers
cushions are traditionally deep stones anyway.... it isn''t about the depth as much as the *relationship* between the crown and pavillion facets. But I''m sure you know that. I''m confident that at least for the OMC/OMB cut stones there is an easy fix to figuring out ideal ranges.... once these cuts begin to have data provided on them. Sure, you''re going to end up with TWO SETS of angles - one for length and one for width - but the correlation between the two can still be analyzed.... and considering the culet on a long stone is generally (though not always) long you could have a cushion cut - even a long cushion - cut so that both the width and length angle numbers were the same or you could have them different and yet compatable with their matching angle to give a totally different look :) I seriously doubt they''re afraid of saying that a stone has a 70% depth so they shave off the culet to make it 65% LOL Not on a cushion. Many people *prefer* culets... I certainly do - I see them and swoon! I wish mine was bigger and its crossed my mind before to shave it off a bit more but I am not going to mess with that lol The culet can give a wishing well sort of thing like an asscher... except instead of ripples in a pond you have more of a tunnel effect with the culet being the central focal point. They draw you to look IN to the facets.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 1/3/2007 8:34:29 PM
Author: :)
Storm, I thought that you could get cushions both ways, the older style and those without a culet - No?
you can find cushions without a culet, sure.... but don't confuse things by thinking that saying older style will get you one and newer style won't. Many of the newer style ones do have culets and some of the older style ones do not. Older style is like mine - more of an OMC cut with 8 pavillion mains, 4 larger and 4 smaller. If you look at the three larger cushion threads on SMTR right now silverlily is one and her stone is more of the older style cushion with the large chunky facets - the culet is *tiny* on this, I bet you can't even see it with the naked eye unless you're really looking for it. Mine shows up well online in pics but it is very difficult to find in person unless you're holding it up to light.

Here's the thread for silverlily's older style: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-ring-is-here-3-10-cushion-in-ritani-setting.55469/



and here is the thread for dmarielevin's older style: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-leon-mege-cushion-is-finally-here.55393/


Just to stick mine in (hehe) but it doesn't have a link yet... it's the same type of cut as the above two, but an even longer L:W ratio...



this is the type I called a "quad" earlier - it also has 8 pav mains but the stone is divided more along quadrant lines - you can see the facet junction making like a + sign and the facets making like an x. this is more of a "modern cut" but I see this style frequently with a culet, albeit a small one. The culet on my stone is "slightly large" you can't really even see small ones and medium is still hard to see.... if you don't like culets medium should still be okay. Just be wary of "very large" because it can include seriously large LOL!!
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/new-2-48-cushion-w-pave-setting-by-mark-t-erd.55339/ bargaincrazy's ring



ETA to add StoneHunter's ring.... it's a quad cut like the one above but a longer version...
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-new-cushion.52757/page-3
 

DBM

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
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Date: 1/3/2007 8:25:21 PM
Author: strmrdr
You do know that the traditional cutting guides for cushions and oec call for large to ex-large culets right?
It was considered a duribility issue and one with a pointed culet was less desireable.
So if your cutting traditional style stones they should be large.
yes that is correct. the old style of cutting usually had larger culets.

cehra- you''re certianly a much greater maven with cushion details than me so there''s not much i could add to what you said. but i don''t understand why you don''t think a manufacturer would want to veer away from say an 80 depth by chopping the culet to make it less?

btw i LOVE that you like larger culets and you see it as a wishing well -- now when i show different cushions to someone i don''t have to say "the con of this is that it has a big culet" but instead i can say "these are two different looks, some like it this way some like it that way" :) you just opened up for me a whole new sales line ;-)
 

belle

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
10,285
ooooh large culet cushion!

ds posted this in another thread and i absolutely L
VE it


 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 1/3/2007 10:35:05 PM
Author: belle
ooooh large culet cushion!

ds posted this in another thread and i absolutely L
VE it


oh yes :) I would trade mine in for that in a heartbeat hahaha well - I would have but now miine has actually grown on me :) can I have both? :D
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
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Cehrabehra Bravo well said


Only thing I can think of to add is that there are some out there where the culet was closed sometime after it was cut with an extra set of facets is another thing thats on the market.
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 1/3/2007 9:47:01 PM
Author: DBM

yes that is correct. the old style of cutting usually had larger culets.

cehra- you''re certianly a much greater maven with cushion details than me so there''s not much i could add to what you said. but i don''t understand why you don''t think a manufacturer would want to veer away from say an 80 depth by chopping the culet to make it less?

btw i LOVE that you like larger culets and you see it as a wishing well -- now when i show different cushions to someone i don''t have to say ''the con of this is that it has a big culet'' but instead i can say ''these are two different looks, some like it this way some like it that way'' :) you just opened up for me a whole new sales line ;-)
Well... many of the modern cushions are pretty shallow - I''ve seen them well under 60 depth with sometimes even larger tables! I think there was one here that was like 61 depth and 72 table or something... diagem, whose opinions on cushions I hold in high regard, told me once that 55-80 for square and 55-85 for long was what he liked for depth. Of course it depends on how everything else is working. Its funny because I was just thinking *yesterday* I wonder what the depth would be on my stone if there was a point, but I don''t think it is significant. I don''t think most of the culets cut on stones today make a significant difference - particularly if the stone has a high crown. My stone has a 66% depth and 20% of it is crown but I want to get some *official* numbers on it before it is set. For me if the stone had its culet and it was then a 70% depth with a 17% crown (just guessing - pulling numbers) I''m not sure it would change much considering cushions have not hair their cuts ideal determined yet.... so really all you have are eyes.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 1/3/2007 11:46:17 PM
Author: strmrdr
Cehrabehra Bravo well said


Only thing I can think of to add is that there are some out there where the culet was closed sometime after it was cut with an extra set of facets is another thing thats on the market.
wow, that''s high praise there storm, thanks! And thanks for adding that part - I also want to add that IMO the ''looking into the stone'' thing for cushions really works with the older style OMC/OMB - the "quad" style (the 3rd pic above) is my 2nd fav cushion cut but to me the patterning draws the eye out, not in. They''re still gorgeous - sparkley in a more traditional way... or would that actually be a more contemporary way? LOL!
 

DBM

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
404
Date: 1/3/2007 10:35:05 PM
Author: belle
ooooh large culet cushion!

ds posted this in another thread and i absolutely L
VE it
I''m really surprised you like this cushion. the whole center looks dead to me and there''s a black culet reflecting in all the top crown facets of this pic. why do you like this? of course it''s sort of a silly question but i''m honestly trying to understand better what the appeal is.
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
23,295
Date: 1/4/2007 12:12:37 AM
Author: DBM

Date: 1/3/2007 10:35:05 PM
Author: belle
ooooh large culet cushion!

ds posted this in another thread and i absolutely L
VE it
I''m really surprised you like this cushion. the whole center looks dead to me and there''s a black culet reflecting in all the top crown facets of this pic. why do you like this? of course it''s sort of a silly question but i''m honestly trying to understand better what the appeal is.
1: its spose to look that way and looks right. In an asscher I dont like the large culets but in a cushion it just looks right.
2: with the large chunky facets it shows up in photos more than in person.
The large fire flashes hide it so its only an issue in heavily difused lighting.
3: The way human vision works also helps cover it.
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
Date: 1/4/2007 12:12:37 AM
Author: DBM

Date: 1/3/2007 10:35:05 PM
Author: belle
ooooh large culet cushion!

ds posted this in another thread and i absolutely L
VE it
I''m really surprised you like this cushion. the whole center looks dead to me and there''s a black culet reflecting in all the top crown facets of this pic. why do you like this? of course it''s sort of a silly question but i''m honestly trying to understand better what the appeal is.
the culet reflecting in the crown facts is called kozibe effect and is probably THE reason this stone is such an incredible knockout! This is one of my fav stones - before I bought one I was hoping to find one like this - easier said than done, I''m afraid
The cutter of this is a true artisan and while he''s probably too shy to stand up and discuss it, I hope he''s reading me sing his praises! :) Anyway - #1 thing I love about this stone is the evenly spaced 8 pav mains.... it isn''t really the traditional spacing for an OMC - more the spacing for an OEC (though this is not an oec - it is a cushion) but you do sometimes see this cut in OMC and I really like the even mains. #2 thing I love is the super high crown and small table which enable the kozibe effect with no tilt! #3 thing I love is that the LGF are very short - you cannot even see them in the table at all. Yum! #4 thing I like is that the culet is soooo perfectly balanced in siz to the width/length of the pav mains as well as the kite facets in the crown. This is a piece of art. You''re not going to find this sitting in a pile of ordinary diamonds available for sale....
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
Date: 1/4/2007 12:30:27 AM
Author: strmrdr

1: its spose to look that way and looks right. In an asscher I dont like the large culets but in a cushion it just looks right.
2: with the large chunky facets it shows up in photos more than in person.
The large fire flashes hide it so its only an issue in heavily difused lighting.
3: The way human vision works also helps cover it.
I like *tiny* culets but not pointed ones in asschers.... like that old cartier? (I forget) one.... the final plop in the sea is a joining of all into one... I like that. But notbig ones like in cushions, definitely. Storm''s right, they do show up way better in pics than in person. If you look VERY carefully at mine (red nail polish) you can see the culet and the red polish easily.... if you look even closer, you''ll notic that about 1/3 of the culet is showing the metal of the holder thingy and you can''t even tell the culet is there. When I look at the stone there''s way too much going on to see the culet.... and in the situations where "it is an issue" to me it is more like "it is a BONUS" because it sucks you in :)
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Messages
4,881
Date: 1/3/2007 8:12:54 PM
Author:DBM
As the general public becomes more educated with diamond specs and information on certificates become more important in the diamond purchase, manufacturers of diamonds have more priority to ensure the certificate (or ''paper'') look good possibly at the expense of the stone''s beauty.

an associate had just pointed this out to me recently in regard to culet size of fancy shapes (it''s not so applicable by rounds i don''t think): say you have a cushion cut that is a little ''deep'' numberwise. If you lop off the bottom of the culet and go for a small or medium sized culet instead of a pointed culet of NONE you''ve just shaved off some numbers from the ''depth'' of the stone right there. the stone is the same but the numbers on the certificate just look nicer and you have a culet hole. == uglier stone but nicer certificate.

just coming to point out something, not looking to force an opinion. Cheers
OOps, big nono...
A polished culet does ''not'' make the stone "UGLY"
You may not like it personaly, but quite a few people love that feature....

I dont believe there are ugly diamonds!!!!
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
4,881
Date: 1/3/2007 8:25:21 PM
Author: strmrdr
You do know that the traditional cutting guides for cushions and oec call for large to ex-large culets right?
It was considered a duribility issue and one with a pointed culet was less desireable.
So if your cutting traditional style stones they should be large.

As a bonus for the cutter it allows a little more weight to be left in the pavilion they arent usualy cut pointed then ground off.
Doing so has a high risk of breaking a chunk off the stone.

It is interesting how much mis-information is floating around about these cuts.
100% correct.

Even today, very large diamonds (incl. rounds) that are modern cuts will posses a faceted culet of some size for durability...
Rounds usually have a very small faceted culet.
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Oct 21, 2004
Messages
4,881
Date: 1/4/2007 12:12:37 AM
Author: DBM

Date: 1/3/2007 10:35:05 PM
Author: belle
ooooh large culet cushion!

ds posted this in another thread and i absolutely L
VE it
I''m really surprised you like this cushion. the whole center looks dead to me and there''s a black culet reflecting in all the top crown facets of this pic. why do you like this? of course it''s sort of a silly question but i''m honestly trying to understand better what the appeal is.
Can i give you a tip??
You are thinking too much as a diamond merchant...
 

DBM

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
404
Date: 1/4/2007 3:06:12 AM
Author: DiaGem

OOps, big nono...
A polished culet does ''not'' make the stone ''UGLY''
You may not like it personaly, but quite a few people love that feature....

I dont believe there are ugly diamonds!!!!
yes like i said i am very happy to have come across your opinions that you like this cut. thank you for pointing that out to me.

in fairness to myself, i wasnt speaking as my personal opinion alone, the majority of customers that i''ve shown the kind of cut above (big culet, dark center, culet reflected in the facets which Cehra pointed out is called kozibe [thx for that cehra] have honestly given me dirty looks (like what kind of stuff is this guy trying to sell me) and i stopped showing it because it was never the diamond of choice. thats not to say it''s not a beautiful diamond. i just dont find it to be popular among the majority. but now with your input i''ll certainly be happy to give it another shot, atleast as an option.
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
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Date: 1/4/2007 4:23:03 AM
Author: DBM

Date: 1/4/2007 3:06:12 AM
Author: DiaGem

OOps, big nono...
A polished culet does ''not'' make the stone ''UGLY''
You may not like it personaly, but quite a few people love that feature....

I dont believe there are ugly diamonds!!!!
yes like i said i am very happy to have come across your opinions that you like this cut. thank you for pointing that out to me.

in fairness to myself, i wasnt speaking as my personal opinion alone, the majority of customers that i''ve shown the kind of cut above (big culet, dark center, culet reflected in the facets which Cehra pointed out is called kozibe [thx for that cehra] have honestly given me dirty looks (like what kind of stuff is this guy trying to sell me) and i stopped showing it because it was never the diamond of choice. thats not to say it''s not a beautiful diamond. i just dont find it to be popular among the majority. but now with your input i''ll certainly be happy to give it another shot, atleast as an option.
Thats what makes it so special....
Especially when no two diamonds look alike...
 

elmo

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 18, 2003
Messages
1,160
Date: 1/4/2007 12:12:37 AM
Author: DBM
I'm really surprised you like this cushion. the whole center looks dead to me and there's a black culet reflecting in all the top crown facets of this pic. why do you like this? of course it's sort of a silly question but i'm honestly trying to understand better what the appeal is.
Is the center in fact dark, or is it a camera lens - head shadow sort of obstruction, like "arrows" in a h-a round? If that's the case, when you back off another foot or two, the center will really pop, and for close viewing you'll get nice contrast effect.

It's a really lovely stone. There are very few cutters here. Did Bill Bray do this one, or was it someone else Cehra? Edit - I see that someone else said on a different thread that DiaGem cut this one. Very cool
. I'm shopping for a fine OMC and wish I could look you up!

Another neat one I've found with this "kozibe effect" (didn't know there was a name for that) is here: http://www.faycullen.com/diamond_rings/800/d707r3d.html.
 

widget

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
4,255

Author: elmo (to DiaGem)

I'm shopping for a fine OMC and wish I could look you up!
Don't we all!!!

These are some of my favorites, cut by DiaGem . I planned to post them even before he joined this thread. I'm in love with the matching 'old cut' sidestones to go with the centers!


widget

DGsoldcts.jpg
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
Date: 1/4/2007 4:23:03 AM
Author: DBM

Date: 1/4/2007 3:06:12 AM
Author: DiaGem

OOps, big nono...
A polished culet does ''not'' make the stone ''UGLY''
You may not like it personaly, but quite a few people love that feature....

I dont believe there are ugly diamonds!!!!
yes like i said i am very happy to have come across your opinions that you like this cut. thank you for pointing that out to me.

in fairness to myself, i wasnt speaking as my personal opinion alone, the majority of customers that i''ve shown the kind of cut above (big culet, dark center, culet reflected in the facets which Cehra pointed out is called kozibe [thx for that cehra] have honestly given me dirty looks (like what kind of stuff is this guy trying to sell me) and i stopped showing it because it was never the diamond of choice. thats not to say it''s not a beautiful diamond. i just dont find it to be popular among the majority. but now with your input i''ll certainly be happy to give it another shot, atleast as an option.
people are not aware of this - not familiar with it. It looks weird to them and weird + money = moving on to some people. It is a distinct flavor... some favor it instantly and for some it is acquired - and many more never acquire it. Depending on the type of people that form your client base, they may not be in the market for more unusual stones. You might find that occasionally just the right person comes in who appreciates the history of diamonds almost as much as they appreciate their beauty. Also, I find that when I am selling something, the things I truly *believe* in are going to be the ones I sell the most of. If you question the beauty of a deep culeted stone, you will likely not inspire confidence in the buyer. It is also possible that the particular combination you have is less attractive than others - but it doesn''t mean the whole genre is.
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
11,071
Date: 1/4/2007 8:58:48 AM
Author: elmo

Date: 1/4/2007 12:12:37 AM
Author: DBM
I''m really surprised you like this cushion. the whole center looks dead to me and there''s a black culet reflecting in all the top crown facets of this pic. why do you like this? of course it''s sort of a silly question but i''m honestly trying to understand better what the appeal is.
Is the center in fact dark, or is it a camera lens - head shadow sort of obstruction, like ''arrows'' in a h-a round? If that''s the case, when you back off another foot or two, the center will really pop, and for close viewing you''ll get nice contrast effect.

It''s a really lovely stone. There are very few cutters here. Did Bill Bray do this one, or was it someone else Cehra? Edit - I see that someone else said on a different thread that DiaGem cut this one. Very cool
. I''m shopping for a fine OMC and wish I could look you up!

Another neat one I''ve found with this ''kozibe effect'' (didn''t know there was a name for that) is here: http://www.faycullen.com/diamond_rings/800/d707r3d.html.
you can see this a lot in tilted diamonds.... you can see the pointed culet in rounds as well when seen from an angle.... there is a percentage factor in how much you have to tilt the stone to see it. If you can see it face up without tilting it at all it is at its most extreme - the diagem diamond above has an extreme case of it. I love it!!
 
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