Overwhelmed & Confused About Proportions, Scintillation & All This Information

[DejaWiz]

Thank you - you and everyone have been so wonderful in providing great advice. It’s all giving me other perspectives to consider.

I have been doing searches online for diamonds comparable to this one. And the pricing I’ve been getting has been all over the map.

At such a large carat size like 5, should I prioritize Color or Clarity? I know it really boils down to proportions at the end of the day, but to narrow down my selection & to keep within a reasonable budget, what would you prioritize & which would you be flexible on?

You're very welcome!
Color and clarity will depend on both your sensitivity/tolerance with your eyes as well as appeasement in your mind.
I can find perfectly eye-clean VS2-SI1 at just about any carat weight, as long as the material is clean and the inclusions are oriented in a manner to be completely obscured by the light return and optics. Many folks probably don't feel right in their mind about an SI1 at such a large carat weight, which I totally understand...Gotta be clean to the mind as well as clean to the eyes.

 

[Fashungurl]

@Fashungurl, you’re the one with the cash! It’s not your job to be a docile customer. It’s their job to guide you to a lifelong loving relationship with a stone that brings you peace and joy.

A request for ASET images is not “high maintenance.” You’re advocating for hard earned money.

Also, your suspicions about a bait & switch may be on target, so understand why you’re feeling a bit tense/cautious/guarded. You also say the quick-talking associate overwhelmed you with information, which again, may be a sales tactic. I mean, how often do they get someone asking for a 5ct lab? Plus, they likely don’t stock very many.

Did you already share your budget? The preferred online vendors all have return policies. There are several experts here who can definitely lead you to a stone with superior optics well within budget.

Good luck!

Thank you so much. And you’re absolutely right & you made very very valid points! The jeweler definitely has me feeling uncomfortable.

The first red flag should’ve been the initial stated price, he definitely said one price, but when he generated the receipt, the listed price was almost $1,000 more. I was willing to overlook that.

Second red flag the ‘bait & switch’ - I called him to cancel yesterday & tell him the reason why but of course (as I suspected), he insisted he wanted to give me a bigger diamond for free. The “bigger” carat, IMO, is so minuscule - it’s not like a whole quarter of a carat, it’s less than .11 cts. I didn’t think that would make that much of a difference in the appearance especially at this overall large size. (bc 5 cts appears large especially on my finger so to me, it was negligible)

What bothers me most about this is bc, he had to have known that this “larger” diamond was inferior. And I didn’t appreciate that he didn’t a) show me all the diamond options when I was there (he stated he didn’t have it on-hand but got it from his factory), b) didn’t notify or communicate with me about the possible change & c) he didn’t give me an option to choose/reject this new stone. I stated all of these concerns I had with him yesterday. And as expected, he had reasons for all of it.

After yesterday’s call he’s now offering a new stone that is D in color, VVS2 & proportions are good but not perfect for the same price. (the table is one degree larger than ideal) I haven’t seen the stone in person so I have no idea what it looks like. He’s definitely desperate not to lose my business now - he’s making last ditch efforts for sure.

During our call, there were some things said that I wasn’t too pleased with. He stated that ALL grading organizations use the term “Ideal” as the best grading cuts within the 4 C’s. Is that true? I thought GIA’s top cut is “Excellent” & IGI uses the word “ideal”? Am I mistaken?

As someone else stated here, he doesn’t have an Ideal-Scope nor an Asset scope. He acted like he didn’t know what either of those were. But he insists that whatever I want to look at, he’s willing to do - he said he would order the scopes.

He also stated that he was forthcoming with the certificate #’s that I had to ask for - these weren’t just provided to me (even after the deposit was made).

Yeah, too many red flags now that I’m writing all of this out to y’all. I think my decision is obvious. Thank you again for your time.

 

[Fashungurl]

You're very welcome!
Color and clarity will depend on both your sensitivity/tolerance with your eyes as well as appeasement in your mind.
I can find perfectly eye-clean VS2-SI1 at just about any carat weight, as long as the material is clean and the inclusions are oriented in a manner to be completely obscured by the light return and optics. Many folks probably don't feel right in their mind about an SI1 at such a large carat weight, which I totally understand...Gotta be clean to the mind as well as clean to the eyes.

I agree - I think I’m more leaning towards as near colorless as I can get & no lower than VS1 (since my current mined is a VS1 & I don’t want to go lower than what I currently have)

Can you clarify this for me? During my call to the jeweler yesterday, there were some things said that I wasn’t too pleased with. He stated that ALL grading organizations use the term “Ideal” as the best grading cuts within the 4 C’s. Is that true? I thought GIA’s top cut is “Excellent” & IGI uses the word “ideal”? Am I mistaken?

In your opinion, do you have a feeling for/or against CVD vs HPHT?

As a last ditch effort, he’s desperate not to lose my business so he’s offering this stone for the same price: GIA# 2466974716 (the table is slightly larger but the rest of the proportions are within the ideal limits) - is this worth considering?

 

[DejaWiz]

I agree - I think I’m more leaning towards as near colorless as I can get & no lower than VS1 (since my current mined is a VS1 & I don’t want to go lower than what I currently have)

Can you clarify this for me? During my call to the jeweler yesterday, there were some things said that I wasn’t too pleased with. He stated that ALL grading organizations use the term “Ideal” as the best grading cuts within the 4 C’s. Is that true? I thought GIA’s top cut is “Excellent” & IGI uses the word “ideal”? Am I mistaken?

In your opinion, do you have a feeling for/or against CVD vs HPHT?

As a last ditch effort, he’s desperate not to lose my business so he’s offering this stone for the same price: GIA# 2466974716 (the table is slightly larger but the rest of the proportions are within the ideal limits) - is this worth considering?

GIA uses 3X as their top grade for Cut, Symmetry, and Polish all falling into their determined criteria of "Excellent".
Great diamonds can be found within the vast range of "Excellent" cut, but it's still pretty loose and broad for proportions and angles.

IGI uses "Ideal" for their top cut grade, but I'd argue that the criteria is even a bit more loose and broad than GIA.

GCAL 8X is a proverbial "easy button" for most folks since they provide quite an array of assessment for optical precision and optical performance, but they are much less common (especially as carat weight increases) and they carry quite a hefty price premium more often than not compared to GIA or IGI graded diamonds.

AGS (rest in peace) also used "Ideal" for their top cut grade and they truly had the consumer's best interests at heart in regards to both optical precision and optical performance. GIA now owns AGS and offers the AGS light performance addendum as an option, but finding an LGD with this add-on is nearly impossible. The stricter AGS cut criteria is likely no longer used: GIA still relies on their own methodology for averaging and gross rounding the measurements to put numbers on the grading report, regardless if the submitter selects the AGS addendum or not.
...GIA just recently stopped disclosing the growth method on their run of the mill LGD reports, leaving consumers in the dark.

There are things that any existing grading lab is a bit lax on (in my opinion) which either don't get checked for or don't get disclosed:
Material quality.
Minor amounts of painting or digging.
Pavilion twist.
Optical issues such as over-obstruction or paddling.
...probably more to add to the list, but I'll let the trade pros jump in, if they are willing to and it wouldn't violate the forum rules for them to do so.

Now, about the new diamond from your jeweler:
Not a fan of any diamond with a 40.9° or steeper pavilion angle because of averaging and gross rounding...it's too much risk in my mind. They can be fine, but I want all the info: ASET Scope and/or Ideal-Scope images, videos in a variety of lighting conditions, and maybe even a vendor video from a company such as Loupe360 or Diam360.

As consumers helping consumers, we try our absolute best to ensure that any diamond being recommended and/or purchased will exhibit pinnacle traits for quality and optics.

 

[Kim N]

I can't find an online video for the GIA diamond. Its proportions are not my favorite, but the combo can work. IMO the 5.03 is the best of the bunch.

 

[ecf8503]

I do want a round. My original engagement ring is a mined radiant. It sparkles like CRAZY. But I regretted the shape choice & wished I would’ve gone with a round. I want the sparkle & fire - I want it to sparkle & fire in sunlight, low light (like in a bar or restaurant) & in unfavorable flat lighting like an office. Are these unrealistic wants?

I was always under the impression that rounds had the best scintillation & fire? Is this not the case compared to other cuts?

Rounds are mathematically the most perfect shape. But there are facet patters other than just a standard 8-arrow round brilliant. OEC's (Old European Cuts) and Transitional cuts have larger facets, which result in broad strokes of fire, as opposed to traditional RB's, as well as those with extra facets (like Solasfera and several Jann Paul cuts). I know that rounds are "perfect", but the standard 8 main RB just didn't do it for me. But a precision cut modern old style OEC? Swoon.....

 

[Fashungurl]

I can't find an online video for the GIA diamond. Its proportions are not my favorite, but the combo can work. IMO the 5.03 is the best of the bunch.

The 5.03 ct is also the one I’d go with....I wonder why there’s no 360 video of the 5.07 ct stone he’s now offering...strange. But I definitely agree with you about the 5.03ct.

 

[Fashungurl]

GIA uses 3X as their top grade for Cut, Symmetry, and Polish all falling into their determined criteria of "Excellent".
Great diamonds can be found within the vast range of "Excellent" cut, but it's still pretty loose and broad for proportions and angles.

IGI uses "Ideal" for their top cut grade, but I'd argue that the criteria is even a bit more loose and broad than GIA.

GCAL 8X is a proverbial "easy button" for most folks since they provide quite an array of assessment for optical precision and optical performance, but they are much less common (especially as carat weight increases) and they carry quite a hefty price premium more often than not compared to GIA or IGI graded diamonds.

AGS (rest in peace) also used "Ideal" for their top cut grade and they truly had the consumer's best interests at heart in regards to both optical precision and optical performance. GIA now owns AGS and offers the AGS light performance addendum as an option, but finding an LGD with this add-on is nearly impossible. The stricter AGS cut criteria is likely no longer used: GIA still relies on their own methodology for averaging and gross rounding the measurements to put numbers on the grading report, regardless if the submitter selects the AGS addendum or not.
...GIA just recently stopped disclosing the growth method on their run of the mill LGD reports, leaving consumers in the dark.

There are things that any existing grading lab is a bit lax on (in my opinion) which either don't get checked for or don't get disclosed:
Material quality.
Minor amounts of painting or digging.
Pavilion twist.
Optical issues such as over-obstruction or paddling.
...probably more to add to the list, but I'll let the trade pros jump in, if they are willing to and it wouldn't violate the forum rules for them to do so.

Now, about the new diamond from your jeweler:
Not a fan of any diamond with a 40.9° or steeper pavilion angle because of averaging and gross rounding...it's too much risk in my mind. They can be fine, but I want all the info: ASET Scope and/or Ideal-Scope images, videos in a variety of lighting conditions, and maybe even a vendor video from a company such as Loupe360 or Diam360.

As consumers helping consumers, we try our absolute best to ensure that any diamond being recommended and/or purchased will exhibit pinnacle traits for quality and optics.

Ah I see...My mined radiant is AGS certified, I had no idea they were bought out. I feel like I own a relic!

I did notice that GIA states on the certificate “Whether this man-made diamond has been treated is currently undeterminable” - Is there a reason for that? How come it can’t be determined? Is that part of their change for grading LGD? (I read about the changes you’re referring to being made on certs for labs on the GIA site, that they’re no longer going to give a letter grade - they’ll state whether a lab is Colorless, Near Colorless, etc. instead)

I read a comment that GIA & IGI both have difficulty in grading labs properly. That both are pretty loose in their standards for grading lab grown. Is that not true?

Thank you for your assessment of the new diamond he’s offering - Based on the “Beyond4Cs” site & Tolkowsky’s ideal proportion chart, 40.9 pavillion falls within the range which I thought was ok? I fully trust your opinion as you & everyone on here have been an incredible wealth of knowledge. (I realize the importance of needing the Ideal/Aset scope view regardless of the numbers)

 

[Fashungurl]

Rounds are mathematically the most perfect shape. But there are facet patters other than just a standard 8-arrow round brilliant. OEC's (Old European Cuts) and Transitional cuts have larger facets, which result in broad strokes of fire, as opposed to traditional RB's, as well as those with extra facets (like Solasfera and several Jann Paul cuts). I know that rounds are "perfect", but the standard 8 main RB just didn't do it for me. But a precision cut modern old style OEC? Swoon.....

Wow that diamond is beautiful. I see what you mean...it’s a “different” type of sparkle/scintillation, I really love that. I think I’ll have to include this cut in my searches now

 

[Fashungurl]

I just want to take a moment and thank every single person who’s taken the time to respond. I truly appreciate how lovely everyone has been. I’m in awe of the breadth of knowledge everyone has & how everyone is so willing to share. Y’all have been nothing but great....this community on here is incredible.