Overwhelmed & Confused About Proportions, Scintillation & All This Information

[Fashungurl]

I’m a novice consumer looking to upgrade to a 5 ct LGD Round Brilliant. (Currently own a mined 2.4 ct Radiant) After being overwhelmed by the plethora of info online, I’m more overwhelmed than better informed, unfortunately.

The thing I’m most confused about is why one shouldn’t rely on the certification if the stone is graded excellent & the proportions are cut to the ideal standard? Simply put, if it says in black & white the stone is near colorless, near flawless & cut to ideal proportions; shouldn’t the diamond sparkle like crazy? In my research on here & sites like “Beyond4C’s” - I’ve learned you can’t trust the cert & you can’t always trust your eyes either. But why wouldn’t the stone perform like it should if it hits all the benchmarks???

Went to a local independently owned jeweler to see actual stones in person. Unfortunately, I got caught up in the moment & put down a deposit on a 5.03 ct LGD round. Here are the specs:
Stone 1)
Lab Carat Weight: 5.03 cts - GIA Certified
Color: E
Clarity: VVS2
Cut: Excellent
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None
Table: 56%
Crown Angle: 35
Pav Angle: 40.8
Depth: 62
Girdle: Medium-ST (faceted 3.5%)

The next day, I called to request the cert# for Stone 1 so that I could look up the proportions online. The jeweler advised “since he wanted us to be happy”, he “upgraded” us to a slightly larger stone. So of course, my radar starts beeping bc is the ‘ol “bait & switch” tactic? I ask him for pics & the cert# for this different diamond. Below are the specs:
Stone 2)
Lab Carat Weight: 5.14 cts - IGI Certified
Color: E
Clarity: VVS2
Cut: Ideal
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None
Table: 59%
Crown Angle: 34.2
Pav Angle: 41.3
Depth: 61.7
Girdle: Medium-ST (faceted)

I understand the “new 5.14 ct stone” is not cut to ideal proportions but it sparkles. It’s a beautiful stone for sure. But the terrible proportions are throwing me for a loop. I’m going to see this new stone in person tomorrow but wanted y’alls thoughts since "even my own eyes can’t be trusted". I’ve attached a pic of this stone (unfortunately I don’t have pics of the first 5.03 stone for comparison).

Can y’all please help me - I’m feeling desperate & lost. Any insight you guys can provide is greatly GREATLY appreciated!

5.14 ct LGD

 

[denverappraiser]

Look a bit into what ‘ideal proportions’ means. It varies widely with the person using the term and some include a significant majority of the stones.

‘Excellent’ has the same general problem. It doesn’t mean what most people think it means.

 

[Fashungurl]

Look a bit into what ‘ideal proportions’ means. It varies widely with the person using the term and some include a significant majority of the stones.

‘Excellent’ has the same general problem. It doesn’t mean what most people think it means.

Hi Neil - thank you for your reply. Your response is exactly my concern & why I’m so confused. It seems that the wide variances in “ideal proportions” & “excellent cut” are so subjective that it makes me wonder why we even use certificates. If certs can’t be relied on then do I rely on “ideal scope” & “ASET” images?

Again, I’d be viewing these things with an untrained eye & believe me, I’ve spent hours looking at all the things I should be looking for when I look into the scope or the image. And I STILL don’t know what the ideal scope image should look like, same goes with ASET images. It all makes me want to drop into the fetal position & sob.

 

[Fashungurl]

Look a bit into what ‘ideal proportions’ means. It varies widely with the person using the term and some include a significant majority of the stones.

‘Excellent’ has the same general problem. It doesn’t mean what most people think it means.

Do you mind taking a look at my link to view the video of the stone? Just so I can get your initial thoughts? I understand if you don’t feel like it.
5.14 ct LGD

 

[Kim N]

Hi Neil - thank you for your reply. Your response is exactly my concern & why I’m so confused. It seems that the wide variances in “ideal proportions” & “excellent cut” are so subjective that it makes me wonder why we even use certificates. If certs can’t be relied on then do I rely on “ideal scope” & “ASET” images?

Again, I’d be viewing these things with an untrained eye & believe me, I’ve spent hours looking at all the things I should be looking for when I look into the scope or the image. And I STILL don’t know what the ideal scope image should look like, same goes with ASET images. It all makes me want to drop into the fetal position & sob.

We use the reports to get the color, clarity, and proportions. But how those proportions are interpreted (ideal, excellent, very good cut) varies. Additionally, the proportions are averages, so they don't take into account the cut precision of the stone. This is where the Ideal-Scope or ASET images come in.

Can you share the report numbers for the two diamonds?

 

[Fashungurl]

We use the reports to get the color, clarity, and proportions. But how those proportions are interpreted (ideal, excellent, very good cut) varies. Additionally, the proportions are averages, so they don't take into account the cut precision of the stone. This is where the Ideal-Scope or ASET images come in.

Can you share the report numbers for the two diamonds?

Hi Kim, thank you for your reply. I truly appreciate everyone’s time & help - you guys are wonderful. My main issue with trying to judge the Ideal-Scope & ASET images is that I’d be looking at them with an untrained eye so I’d have trouble evaluating what I’m seeing - I have not asked the jeweler for these images yet. So I’m unsure if he even has this on hand.

Yes, here are the report#’s.

5.03 ct LGD: GIA# 1455769041
5.14 ct LGD: IGI# LG597379893

 

[Kim N]

Hi Kim, thank you for your reply. I truly appreciate everyone’s time & help - you guys are wonderful. My main issue with trying to judge the Ideal-Scope & ASET images is that I’d be looking at them with an untrained eye so I’d have trouble evaluating what I’m seeing - I have not asked the jeweler for these images yet. So I’m unsure if he even has this on hand.

Yes, here are the report#’s.

5.03 ct LGD: GIA# 1455769041
5.14 ct LGD: IGI# LG597379893

Here are the 360 videos for these stones.

Loupe360

loupe360.com

Loupe360

loupe360.com

I'd pass on the 5.14 as it's not well cut. The 5.03 looks very nice in the video. Definitely ask for an Ideal-Scope or ASET image, but if he can't provide one, you could buy an ASET scope yourself.

ASET Scope

www.datlas.com

 

[lovedogs]

The 5.14 is bad, don't accept that as a replacement for the much nicer 5.03.

 

[denverappraiser]

‘Certificates’, more properly called Grading Reports, give quite a bit of useful information and they tend to drive the prices. It’s more important with mined stones than grown but superficial differences can have a substantial affects on things. Put bluntly, you want a grading report even though it doesn’t answer every question. It answers some.

The data you have is IS, ASET, your eyes, and the eyes of someone you trust. IS/ASET pretty much commits you to buying from the vendors here. Few others use that approach. There’s quite a bit of content in this forum and the related tutorials. Stores are a little different. You look. Pick a store you like and talk to them about it. Look at several stones under exactly the same lighting conditions and get a feel for what you like. There is no wrong answer but there are differences, and it will be helpful to train yourself to see it.

 

[Fashungurl]

Here are the 360 videos for these stones.

Loupe360

loupe360.com

Loupe360

loupe360.com

I'd pass on the 5.14 as it's not well cut. The 5.03 looks very nice in the video. Definitely ask for an Ideal-Scope or ASET image, but if he can't provide one, you could buy an ASET scope yourself.

ASET Scope

www.datlas.com

Thank you so much for evaluating and linking the 360 videos for me to view.

Here’s my main issue with trying to evaluate an Ideal-Scope and/or ASET image - I am a novice with an untrained eye - therefore, it’s so difficult for me to discern what the red, blue & green patterns should look like. I’ve reviewed both sites ad nauseam & I’m just at a loss.

If the jeweler does have an ideal-scope or ASET scope on hand - I’d have to rely on my own eyeballs to try & evaluate while I’m there in store. And this worries me to no end - I’m going to look at both stones again tomorrow but I know I’m going to pass on the 5.14 ct. I’m just worried that the better cut smaller stone (5.03 ct) is still not “the best performing” stone.

 

[Fashungurl]

The 5.14 is bad, don't accept that as a replacement for the much nicer 5.03.

Thank you so much for reviewing & responding. I agree, I’m going to pass on that. But it does “look” beautiful, no? Just seeing the attached video - it sparkles.
5.14 ct LGD

 

[lovedogs]

Thank you so much for reviewing & responding. I agree, I’m going to pass on that. But it does “look” beautiful, no? Just seeing the attached video - it sparkles.
5.14 ct LGD

It sparkles, but it's nowhere near as good as the other one. It's not beautiful to *me* (but of course that's just my view) because the cut isn't good

 

[Kim N]

Thank you so much for evaluating and linking the 360 videos for me to view.

Here’s my main issue with trying to evaluate an Ideal-Scope and/or ASET image - I am a novice with an untrained eye - therefore, it’s so difficult for me to discern what the red, blue & green patterns should look like. I’ve reviewed both sites ad nauseam & I’m just at a loss.

If the jeweler does have an ideal-scope or ASET scope on hand - I’d have to rely on my own eyeballs to try & evaluate while I’m there in store. And this worries me to no end - I’m going to look at both stones again tomorrow but I know I’m going to pass on the 5.14 ct. I’m just worried that the better cut smaller stone (5.03 ct) is still not “the best performing” stone.

If the jeweler has a scope, you can try to take a photo and post it here for feedback. I also recommend viewing the diamonds in lighting conditions other than the jewelry store lights. They're designed to make any diamond look good. Look at them under the counter, or by the window.

Are you open to buying online? We can help you find alternatives to those two.

 

[Fashungurl]

If the jeweler has a scope, you can try to take a photo and post it here for feedback. I also recommend viewing the diamonds in lighting conditions other than the jewelry store lights. They're designed to make any diamond look good. Look at them under the counter, or by the window.

Are you open to buying online? We can help you find alternatives to those two.

Yes - I looked at the first stone outside. But honestly, I was blocking the sun when I viewed it so I need to look at the stone again. I know the store lights are designed to make everything sparkle like a star so I knew not to get suckered by the interior lights.

I’m going to the store tomorrow, bc I feel like the first day I was there, I was too caught up in the moment & the jeweler was a little too "quick talking” (he was very nice but just bombarded me with info & convo & I felt a little rushed)

I’m not opposed to buying online, however, I really wanted to see the stone in person before purchasing.

 

[DejaWiz]

Please avoid the 5.14 - the 41.3/34.2/59 combo is pretty horrible when it comes to *proper* light reflection back to the viewer's eyes. The center is dark because of the light leakage occuring.
It is not an upgrade to the 5.03 with the way more favorable 40.8/35/56 combo...and a diamond with a GIA grading report will have a price premium over a diamond accompanied by an IGI grading report.
Stick with the 5.03 - it'll blow the doors off the 5.14, looking bigger and brighter while doing so.
There's no contest here except a play at your wallet for a potential larger profit margin.

 

[Fashungurl]

Please avoid the 5.14 - the 41.3/34.2/59 combo is pretty horrible when it comes to *proper* light reflection back to the viewer's eyes. The center is dark because of the light leakage occuring.
It is not an upgrade to the 5.03 with the way more favorable 40.8/35/56 combo...and a diamond with a GIA grading report will have a price premium over a diamond accompanied by an IGI grading report.
Stick with the 5.03 - it'll blow the doors off the 5.14, looking bigger and brighter while doing so.
There's no contest here except a play at your wallet for a potential larger profit margin.

Thank you so much - I agree with you whole heartedly. I actually saw the 5.03 ct in person & felt like there was fire but it didn’t blow my socks off. I think bc I kept comparing it to my radiant which I know has many more facets & is cut completely different so I can’t compare the two. However, I just felt slightly underwhelmed but still thought it was a beautiful diamond which is why I placed a deposit on it. (again I think I just kept comparing it to my radiant)

All things considered, these proportions should equal a fiery diamond, no?

 

[DejaWiz]

Thank you so much - I agree with you whole heartedly. I actually saw the 5.03 ct in person & felt like there was fire but it didn’t blow my socks off. I think bc I kept comparing it to my radiant which I know has many more facets & is cut completely different so I can’t compare the two. However, I just felt slightly underwhelmed but still thought it was a beautiful diamond which is why I placed a deposit on it. (again I think I just kept comparing it to my radiant)

All things considered, these proportions should equal a fiery diamond, no?

*Should* (*should*) be a heck of a nice diamond, but there are always things that can inhibit optical performance even if all the numbers on the report shake out and relay that it should have amazing optics...things like painting/digging, twisted facets, even growth graining...things that are never disclosed on a grading report but can be seen via ASET or Ideal-Scope or identified under a loupe or microscope.
In short, there are a plethora of things that can be wrong with a diamond in its 3D space.

 

[Fashungurl]

*Should* (*should*) be a heck of a nice diamond, but there are always things that can inhibit optical performance even if all the numbers on the report shake out and relay that it should have amazing optics...things like painting/digging, twisted facets, even growth graining...things that are never disclosed on a grading report but can be seen via ASET or Ideal-Scope or identified under a loupe or microscope.
In short, there are a plethora of things that can be wrong with a diamond in its 3D space.

All very good points & definitely things to consider. Ugh, this entire process is more stressful for me now than exciting. I’m just so afraid of “being stuck” with a poor performing ring & being so disappointed every time I look down at it.

 

[Fashungurl]

If the jeweler has a scope, you can try to take a photo and post it here for feedback. I also recommend viewing the diamonds in lighting conditions other than the jewelry store lights. They're designed to make any diamond look good. Look at them under the counter, or by the window.

Are you open to buying online? We can help you find alternatives to those two.

I know asking for the Ideal-Scope and/or ASET images is a standard practice & most jewelers should provide that (if they have it - if not, I know I should avoid them). However, am I being “too high maintenance” by asking for this?

I’m only asking bc I noticed these scope images aren’t something all retailers (both online & in store) readily have available.

 

[Fashungurl]

All very good points & definitely things to consider. Ugh, this entire process is more stressful for me now than exciting. I’m just so afraid of “being stuck” with a poor performing ring & being so disappointed every time I look down at it.

I know asking for the Ideal-Scope and/or ASET images is a standard practice & most jewelers should provide that (if they have it - if not, I know I should avoid them). However, am I being “too high maintenance” by asking for this?

I’m only asking bc I noticed these scope images aren’t something all retailers (both online & in store) readily have available.

 

[denverappraiser]

I know asking for the Ideal-Scope and/or ASET images is a standard practice & most jewelers should provide that (if they have it - if not, I know I should avoid them). However, am I being “too high maintenance” by asking for this?

Most jewelers do NOT have them, and taking these pictures is significantly more difficult than it looks. On the bright side, you can buy the tools for a reasonable price if you like.

 

[Fashungurl]

Most jewelers do NOT have them, and taking these pictures is significantly more difficult than it looks. On the bright side, you can buy the tools for a reasonable price if you like.

I definitely plan to do that, unfortunately, the scope won’t arrive in time since I’ll be going tomorrow. It’s also a bit of a drive for me since I live in a rural area outside of a major city.

I’ll hold off on moving forward with setting, etc. until I can get a view of the stone under the scope. I just hope I know what the heck I’m looking at.

 

[ecf8503]

... saw the 5.03 ct in person & felt like there was fire but it didn’t blow my socks off. I think bc I kept comparing it to my radiant which I know has many more facets & is cut completely different so I can’t compare the two. However, I just felt slightly underwhelmed...

Are you sure you want RB? If you want fiery, perhaps something with larger facets like an OEC may be more your style. FWIW, I appreciate all cuts, but some just appeal to me more. RB's just don't "do it" for me, give me an OEC, emerald cut, etc any day. Do you like the splintery sparkle of the radiant? And by "fire" do you mean colored light return? Just trying to help you decide why you may not be impressed by RBs.

 

[0515vision]

@Fashungurl, you’re the one with the cash! It’s not your job to be a docile customer. It’s their job to guide you to a lifelong loving relationship with a stone that brings you peace and joy.

A request for ASET images is not “high maintenance.” You’re advocating for hard earned money.

Also, your suspicions about a bait & switch may be on target, so understand why you’re feeling a bit tense/cautious/guarded. You also say the quick-talking associate overwhelmed you with information, which again, may be a sales tactic. I mean, how often do they get someone asking for a 5ct lab? Plus, they likely don’t stock very many.

Did you already share your budget? The preferred online vendors all have return policies. There are several experts here who can definitely lead you to a stone with superior optics well within budget.

Good luck!

 

[Kim N]

@Fashungurl, you’re the one with the cash! It’s not your job to be a docile customer. It’s their job to guide you to a lifelong loving relationship with a stone that brings you peace and joy.

A request for ASET images is not “high maintenance.” You’re advocating for hard earned money.

Also, your suspicions about a bait & switch may be on target, so understand why you’re feeling a bit tense/cautious/guarded. You also say the quick-talking associate overwhelmed you with information, which again, may be a sales tactic. I mean, how often do they get someone asking for a 5ct lab? Plus, they likely don’t stock very many.

Did you already share your budget? The preferred online vendors all have return policies. There are several experts here who can definitely lead you to a stone with superior optics well within budget.

Good luck!

I agree with everything 0515vision said!

 

[AdaBeta27]

I'm in a rural area with some decent b&m jewelers in the area. And I have NEVER found any in-stock diamonds in those stores that could compare to the superb ones you can buy online. There were a lot of average performing diamonds being sold at very high prices. The same is true now that stores have lab diamonds. Yes, they have them, but they are the run of the mill, not the superideals. You put a deposit on a specific diamond, not whatever the jeweler picks out for you. If you decide you want to look around some more, get the deposit back and walk.

 

[DejaWiz]

I definitely plan to do that, unfortunately, the scope won’t arrive in time since I’ll be going tomorrow. It’s also a bit of a drive for me since I live in a rural area outside of a major city.

I’ll hold off on moving forward with setting, etc. until I can get a view of the stone under the scope. I just hope I know what the heck I’m looking at.

For reference, here is a "live listing" for the 5.03 from one of the regularly recommended sellers:

5.03 Carat E VVS2 Round Brilliant Lab Grown Diamond GIA Certified 1455769041 Affinity Cut - D55225346

5.03 carat, Round, E Color, VVS2 clarity, GIA Certified Diamond, Affinity Cut Lab Grown Diamond, D55225346

www.adiamor.com

If I run a quick search for 4.9+ D-F VS2 or better diamonds at $12500 max at some of the popular online sellers, then I'm seeing results for potentially great candidates all the way up to the 6 carat realm. You have options, and we'll be here ready to make recommendations should you choose to explore online options.

 

[momofive]

I would definitely take a look at some online choices. Learn the return policy. Some are very generous with time. This way you can look at the diamond in your home in all sorts of lighting conditions and will probably have your ASET and IS by then. If the store you went to tried to bait and switch, I don’t think I would trust them.

 

[Fashungurl]

Are you sure you want RB? If you want fiery, perhaps something with larger facets like an OEC may be more your style. FWIW, I appreciate all cuts, but some just appeal to me more. RB's just don't "do it" for me, give me an OEC, emerald cut, etc any day. Do you like the splintery sparkle of the radiant? And by "fire" do you mean colored light return? Just trying to help you decide why you may not be impressed by RBs.

I do want a round. My original engagement ring is a mined radiant. It sparkles like CRAZY. But I regretted the shape choice & wished I would’ve gone with a round. I want the sparkle & fire - I want it to sparkle & fire in sunlight, low light (like in a bar or restaurant) & in unfavorable flat lighting like an office. Are these unrealistic wants?

I was always under the impression that rounds had the best scintillation & fire? Is this not the case compared to other cuts?

 

[Fashungurl]

For reference, here is a "live listing" for the 5.03 from one of the regularly recommended sellers:

5.03 Carat E VVS2 Round Brilliant Lab Grown Diamond GIA Certified 1455769041 Affinity Cut - D55225346

5.03 carat, Round, E Color, VVS2 clarity, GIA Certified Diamond, Affinity Cut Lab Grown Diamond, D55225346

www.adiamor.com

If I run a quick search for 4.9+ D-F VS2 or better diamonds at $12500 max at some of the popular online sellers, then I'm seeing results for potentially great candidates all the way up to the 6 carat realm. You have options, and we'll be here ready to make recommendations should you choose to explore online options.

Thank you - you and everyone have been so wonderful in providing great advice. It’s all giving me other perspectives to consider.

I have been doing searches online for diamonds comparable to this one. And the pricing I’ve been getting has been all over the map.

At such a large carat size like 5, should I prioritize Color or Clarity? I know it really boils down to proportions at the end of the day, but to narrow down my selection & to keep within a reasonable budget, what would you prioritize & which would you be flexible on?