Our Moloch

[Calliecake]

There was an armed deputy assigned to the Stoneman Douglas school. He was armed in uniform on the campus and did nothing. He never went in the school. He resigned today. Think about this for a minute, the armed deputy did nothing and people are expecting an armed teacher to stop a school shooter?

Where are Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell? Why haven’t they said anything the past few days?

@Maria D Think of the money we could save on the Trump Family Security. Don Jr and Eric seem to think they are big men killing animals. Why do they need security? One would think they should be able to protect their families. They certainly know how to use a gun.

 

[cmd2014]

Thanks for discussing this with me. I appreciate your views.

Yeah, I worked in a maximum security prison for a while in my early career too, so I know how people can be and the forces that create them. I'm also really glad not to be working there anymore. And you're right. Both sides of the aisle have sat on their hands, and your constitution does make things more challenging. And I agree with you that lobbying is the source of many evils (tobacco, big pharma, investment banks, the NRA, manufacturing corporations that lobby against environmental protections) - it seems way too easy to convince politicians to vote for things that are against the interests of their own people when campaign donations are involved. Maybe that is something that can be changed. I like that people are starting to hold their representatives accountable about where their campaign money comes from. And maybe as millennials become politically active they will be enough of a voting block that they can effect the kind of change we Gen X'ers have been hoping for but haven't had the numbers to achieve. That would be nice (provided they don't turn out to be as flighty and silly as we fear that they might be - I worried that Bernie's free tuition plan was going to bankrupt you all and take the rest of us down with you, truth be told).

I hope that things do change. I also hope that I'm not too pessimistic about people. Yes, they can be idiots. Thankfully, not everyone is an idiot. People can be heroic too. And gracious and kind under extraordinary circumstances, and can restore your faith in humanity. Maybe for the rest of today I'm going to focus on that, and try to be as hopeful as a millenial. Either that or find a safe space for myself for a while (perhaps in a glass of wine).

 

[Bron357]

The people who make and sell guns and accessories are very very very rich. This is why they “sponsor” politicians, their business model is sell more guns, sell more ammo and make more money.
Simple.
Politicians are in the “gun lobby’s pocket” the gun groups paid, so they “own” them.
And as long as it isn’t them or their family getting “shot up” they don’t give two hoots who buys their goods.
I saw that video, a teen boy, aged 13, couldn’t buy a scratch lottery ticket “you have to be over 18” says the lady. Same boy walks into a gun show, hands over the $$$ and takes home a gun and a bag of bullets.
So it’s too “dangerous” for a 13 year old to buy a lottery ticket but hey, here’s a high powered rifle and a bag of bullets, have fun laddie!”.
And as for giving teachers guns.......
So there’s an alarm, the schools in “lockdown”, ordinary citizen teacher lady now gets her gun out of its cabinet and with her students behind her points the gun at the door. Terrified, nervous, waiting.
The door starts to open.....immediately the teacher lets off 4 or 5 shots.
It might have been “the shooter” but it might also be a frightened student running back to a classroom they know, it might be another teacher wanting to join this class group, it might be the schools security guard checking classrooms, it might even be the police searching for “the shooter”.
Whoever it was now have 4 or 5 bullets in them and if it was the police who got shot, might not his/her colleagues think “we’ve found the shooter now” and storm the classroom themselves with guns blazing!
You see, when “everyone” has a gun, “anyone” could be the shooter.

 

[ksinger]

Well, I can tell ya, even in a red state like mine, the teachers have had quite enough already - we don't pay them, change and add yet another responsibility to their job description every 12.5 minutes, and admin has increasingly locked themselves in their offices when it comes to discipline and referrals, meaning most admin is to chickenshit to get rid of kids who need to be got rid of, for one. They typically flip most referrals back to the teacher without doing anything, which helps erode classroom control, helps make everyone less safe, and ruins actual teaching, because when you've got to deal with a kid who just told you "F*** you!!!", you aren't teaching.

The teachers are pushing back pretty hard to the calls for them take bullets, to be armed, and now kill and "do it for the kids". The actual teachers that are left of course, I can't vouch for the lick-and-stick ones that are increasing in number. But those are pretty much doing the revolving door thing - in for one year, out the next, so I don't think they even have time to comment.

I'd like to point out 2 things - and the teachers here will nod in agreement I'm sure. Most teachers are still women is one, and women are generally quite a bit more resistant to having guns on the brain as much as men, so there's that. There is also a pretty bright line in mindset between elementary/middle school and high school teachers. It's not always a comfortable line, but the bulk of the women in elementary education did NOT go into it so they could carry a weapon around children, and most of the high school teachers can extrapolate some pretty ugly scenarios that could occur with angry teens thinking they have even the slightest chance of getting their hands of one of the teachers' guns.

I'll repeat what my husband said, the first time this got floated out there (after Sandy Hook): Stupidest damn thing since abstinence only sex ed.

 

[AGBF]

Well, I can tell ya, even in a red state like mine, the teachers have had quite enough already - we don't pay them, change and add yet another responsibility to their job description every 12.5 minutes, and admin has increasingly locked themselves in their offices when it comes to discipline and referrals, meaning most admin is to chickenshit to get rid of kids who need to be got rid of, for one. They typically flip most referrals back to the teacher without doing anything, which helps erode classroom control, helps make everyone less safe, and ruins actual teaching, because when you've got to deal with a kid who just told you "F*** you!!!", you aren't teaching.

The teachers are pushing back pretty hard to the calls for them take bullets, to be armed, and now kill and "do it for the kids". The actual teachers that are left of course, I can't vouch for the lick-and-stick ones that are increasing in number. But those are pretty much doing the revolving door thing - in for one year, out the next, so I don't think they even have time to comment.

I'd like to point out 2 things - and the teachers here will nod in agreement I'm sure. Most teachers are still women is one, and women are generally quite a bit more resistant to having guns on the brain as much as men, so there's that. There is also a pretty bright line in mindset between elementary/middle school and high school teachers. It's not always a comfortable line, but the bulk of the women in elementary education did NOT go into it so they could carry a weapon around children, and most of the high school teachers can extrapolate some pretty ugly scenarios that could occur with angry teens thinking they have even the slightest chance of getting their hands of one of the teachers' guns.

I'll repeat what my husband said, the first time this got floated out there (after Sandy Hook): Stupidest damn thing since abstinence only sex ed.

I was a substitute teacher in the public schools here in Connecticut right out of college and both before and after becoming a social worker I taught several subjects in two independent schools which I could do because I have a master's degree in another field as well as social work. (In independent schools things are not as rough as in public schools.) I love kids. I love working with them. It's why I went from teaching into social work. It's because I had troubled kids coming to me and I wanted to be able to be more useful to them than I had been thus far. But they can be a big challenge. I would not want an angry kid (or me) near a gun! All I can say about your posting is: Hallelujah and Amen!

AGBF

 

[redwood66]

Teachers with guns is epically stupid in the preponderance of cases. However having a locked down campus and entry checkpoints with armed security is not. They already exist in many schools in high crime areas. This is the world we live in, like it or not. As has been said before by ksinger, the 2nd Amendment is not going anywhere and guns will not be confiscated so the conversation needs to move away from that to things that might work.

 

[Calliecake]

We need to make many changes to protect our children but arming teachers is insane. Why is it that law makers, the NRA and gun enthusiasts still have not said that the AR15 and all the other weapons that are almost identical to this type of gun (I believe Rubio said there are 200 rifles and gun models like the AR15) are not being banned. These type of guns shoot a bullet 3 times faster than a 9mm hand gun does. The speed the AK-15 fires these bullets is 2,182 MPH, 3200 feet per second and can fire 90 to 100 bullets per minute. A 9mm can fire maybe 15 bullets per minute. These assaults rifles are killing machines. They are not afternoon entertainment.

The following two paragraphs are from Heather Sher, a medical doctor from a hospital where the shooting victims were taken:

I was looking at a C-T scan of one of the victims of the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift, the organ looked like an over ripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, with extensive bleeding. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?...... In a typical handgun injury that I diagnose almost daily, a bullet leaves a laceration through an organ like the liver. To a radiologist, it appears as a linear, thin, grey bullet track through the organ. There may be bleeding and some fragments.

One of the trauma surgeons opened a young victim in the operating room and found only shreds of the organ that had been hit by a bullet from the AR-15, a semi-automatic rifle which delivers a devastating lethal, high velocity bullet to the victim. There was nothing left to repair....the injury was fatal.

I found it particular distrubing that Dana Loesch used the word “Crazy” when discussing mental illiness in a room full of people who lived thru this traumatic event. Many of these people will need to be treated by mental health professionals to deal with what they witnessed that day. These kids and their parents are traumatized.

IMO the NRA, law makers and gun enthusiasts who want these type of guns not to be banned are just as ill as the people pulling the trigger. These children’s right to life should be viewed much more important than your right to own these types of rifles.

 

[ksinger]

Hey y'all! Here is some good(ish) news. We'll take what we can get right now, right? Apparently, the NRA is getting dumped by even more businesses that were offering discounts to NRA member. They'll no longer be able to entice new members with as many nifty discounts. The list is getting shorter. Apparently businesses are starting to see the writing on that wall. Especially interesting to see how many insurance companies are walking away.

Here's a list so we can do some boycotting until the businesses allowing the NRA to use them as incentive to join, quit offering discounts to the people who support gun rights over the survival of children. And teachers. And humans.

Pass it on to the millennials you know.

The NRA is being supported by these companies
Come for the discounts, stay for the opposition to common sense gun laws.
https://thinkprogress.org/corporations-nra-f0d8074f2ca7/

 

[cmd2014]

Wow. It's #grabthembythewallet part 2. Good for whoever organized this. And good for everyone who has participated and put pressure where it hurts. A similar list of politicians who accept NRA campaign donations should also be made public. Change happens when enough people want change.

 

[Arkteia]

There was an armed deputy assigned to the Stoneman Douglas school. He was armed in uniform on the campus and did nothing. He never went in the school. He resigned today. Think about this for a minute, the armed deputy did nothing and people are expecting an armed teacher to stop a school shooter?

Where are Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell? Why haven’t they said anything the past few days?

@Maria D Think of the money we could save on the Trump Family Security. Don Jr and Eric seem to think they are big men killing animals. Why do they need security? One would think they should be able to protect their families. They certainly know how to use a gun.

Question is how the armed deputy was armed. If it was a handheld gun, perhaps no match for AR-15 or any automatic rifle? And he understood it by the sounds of the shots?

Armed teachers are a stupid idea. It means acknowledging that we have a problem at schools and the country, the government can not, and would not, resolve it.

Sort of “save yourselves” position.

I hate the pictures of Don and Eric trophy hunting.

 

[redwood66]

There is talk of raising the limit to purchase any weapon to 21. Ok. Then also raise the limit to 21 for enlisting in the military. I am not sure how far it will go and there will be challenges to it that will go to the SCOTUS.

The failures of multiple government entities with this killer that are coming to be known is absolutely disgusting.

 

[cmd2014]

Question is how the armed deputy was armed. If it was a handheld gun, perhaps no match for AR-15 or any automatic rifle? And he understood it by the sounds of the shots?

I feel sorry for this person. Even police wouldn't go in alone to confront someone armed with an AR-15, armed only with what was probably a handgun. And to be publicly shamed (mostly by Trump from what I can tell) as being a coward and for 'allowing' those kids to be killed must just be devastating. I worry for them. I really do. I hope they are able to get support.

What killed me this morning was watching Trump announce that many teachers are former marines and military, and that they should be armed (because they can be tv-show style Seal Team commandos and save the day), and then deny that he had said it. What now? I feel like I am in bizarro world.

 

[redwood66]

He was shamed by the Sheriff, his boss, first. He will have a difficult life from here on out.

 

[Calliecake]

Red, A 9mm is no match for an AR-15. Aren’t police instructed to wait for back up?

 

[House Cat]

I feel sorry for this person. Even police wouldn't go in alone to confront someone armed with an AR-15, armed only with what was probably a handgun. And to be publicly shamed (mostly by Trump from what I can tell) as being a coward and for 'allowing' those kids to be killed must just be devastating. I worry for them. I really do. I hope they are able to get support.

What killed me this morning was watching Trump announce that many teachers are former marines and military, and that they should be armed (because they can be tv-show style Seal Team commandos and save the day), and then deny that he had said it. What now? I feel like I am in bizarro world.

It is my understanding that this man was a police deputy. Most schools have a deputy that is dedicated for schools. That is why the sheriff is so pissed. They take an oath to serve and protect. School shootings are a reality for school officers.

I know I sound terribly harsh and I don’t mean to be.

I am actually being led to the conclusion that maybe our schools should be secured like prisons and guarded by three or four military personnel. They are the people who trained to protect others when they hear that kind of rapid gunfire.

 

[Matata]

I haven't checked any other sources to see if this accurate but the article states that several deputies were outside the school and didn't enter.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html

 

[lyra]

I really hope there will be change, but I'm becoming desensitized because realistically, it doesn't seem like it will happen in my lifetime, and thankfully I don't live in the US or have kids in school. What I think is more likely to happen is we will see a 2 tier (minimum) level of school safety. The wealthy will get the best secured private schools, and the general public will get nothing. Maybe some more metal detectors and door locks. Call me cynical.

 

[cmd2014]

House Cat,

I can't help but wonder if the people assigned to these positions aren't woefully untrained, underpaid, and under-supported in all the ways that would really count when it comes to dealing with these kinds of situations. Kind of like I don't expect the mall security guys to be able to throw down like Bruce Willis if anything bad starts to happen in the food court. But maybe I'm underestimating the training. It's not something we have here.

 

[redwood66]

It is my understanding that this area is quite affluent with not much crime. You can train but that doesn't mean you will react as you are supposed to. I also read that the 3 other deputies that showed up did not go in either and that is creating some animosity by the neighboring LE that responded. I read an interesting article this morning that got me thinking about the police and crisis responses. It is not a positive view at all.

@Calliecake it might answer about your training question. I have not talked to our local LE about response strategies because they are usually not public information for obvious reasons.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/23...ail&utm_term=0_cfcb868ceb-06e18f6600-83959769


SCOTUS has ruled in the past that LE does not have a constitutional responsibility to protect.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/p...ot-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html

 

[ksinger]

It is my understanding that this man was a police deputy. Most schools have a deputy that is dedicated for schools. That is why the sheriff is so pissed. They take an oath to serve and protect. School shootings are a reality for school officers.

I know I sound terribly harsh and I don’t mean to be.

I am actually being led to the conclusion that maybe our schools should be secured like prisons and guarded by three or four military personnel. They are the people who trained to protect others when they hear that kind of rapid gunfire.

I'll skip the school cop issue this time.

I'm hoping that you're being facetious about the highlighted above. If not, then someone needs to tell my why they think anyone would do the job of teaching under those conditions? The teacher shortage is pretty awful everywhere. I don't think making the environments in schools even more miserable than they already are is going to result in people flocking to the profession. I know the level of misery right now is pretty much beyond bearing for many.

Making it so that coming to work is like entering an actual prison, would send a lot more teachers over the edge and into doing just about anything but teaching. Remember, most states already don't pay teachers enough, and quite frankly, no one should assume that teachers are so lacking in convictions that simply paying them enough is going to make them willing to carry and kill for the kids, or work in a prison-like lockdown. A large portion of them, arguably the best portion, will just say to a society which has already pretty much given up on them, "Screw you very much, I'm outta here." Bottom line, parents expecting every adult in a school to happily die for their kid, is too much.

Maybe once the teacher shortage can no longer be papered over by lick-and-stick emergency certs, the soldiers and SWAT team members guarding the schools can do double duty as teachers. If teachers have to be Rambo, then the very least those guys could do is become teachers.

The good part though, is that we'll start training kids to be incarcerated early and often. When they complain that school is like prison, they'll actually be speaking from experience! And just think of how much shorter and easier the school-to-prison pipeline will be.

We'll Quit Before Trump Gets Us to Carry Guns
https://www.thedailybeast.com/teach...akes-us-carry-guns?source=facebook&via=mobile

 

[Snowdrop13]

Maybe people will just stop sending their kids to school? That would have a really great effect on the country as a whole. Guns and gun rights are more important than educating your future workforce?

 

[monarch64]

Maybe people will just stop sending their kids to school? That would have a really great effect on the country as a whole. Guns and gun rights are more important than educating your future workforce?

Last thread we discussed all this (how sad is it that I can’t remember the school name or when it happened?) I brought up the idea of bulletproof vests for children. And for adults. If others can be armed with crazy shit like AR-15s then I feel it’s my right to protect my child and myself with a bulletproof vest (that is actually rated bulletproof—there was some discussion about that as well.) I mean, I don’t understand why NRA nor politicians aren’t mentioning this? Not enough lobby $$$$$$$$$ in the bulletproof business to garner attention and votes?

Let’s just do that already and accept that the US will never change it’s stance on gun control. I came to a stop behind a truck with a trailer hitch cover that said “gun control is using both hands” earlier this evening on the way to pick up my daughter. This afternoon I passed a giant billboard that said little more than GUNS in blazing orange and black with an arrow pointing towards an exit. Its the American way of life. Kill or be killed.

 

[Arkteia]

Maybe people will just stop sending their kids to school? That would have a really great effect on the country as a whole. Guns and gun rights are more important than educating your future workforce?

This is exactly what I am considering, given that we still have four years to go. Online schooling works well for some kids, and is more secure.

 

[Arkteia]

A teacher accidentally discharded the gun at school. Need we more proof to the idiocy of the idea of arming all our teachers?

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/utah-teacher-shoots-herself-the-leg-while-school

 

[redwood66]

A teacher accidentally discharded the gun at school. Need we more proof to the idiocy of the idea of arming all our teachers?

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/utah-teacher-shoots-herself-the-leg-while-school

I don't think anyone has suggested arming all our teachers. Arming the preponderance of them is very stupid though.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

The situation is so bad, that our only recourse is to amend the second amendment. It is an amendment to the constitution and can be changed. Start suggesting that and you'll see some agreements made. 75 % of states can issue the change. It will be a fight worth fighting for at this point in time.
Yrs ago, 50, those who had guns did not use them to kill people. Times have changed and we have to go whole hog to change this again. Society has changed for the worse and even if people say it can't be done, I think it has a chance. Some people can keep their guns , others can not. New rules for new times.

When gangsters used tommy guns, laws were changed.
Annette

 

[ksinger]

Arming a minority of teachers is very stupid.

Arming ANY of them is very stupid.

Just because there are a few who are stupid enough to think they could and should be armed around children or teens - or that the psychological damage to co-workers and kids, of being around armed people all the time, is negligible - doesn't make it any less stupid.

People who ARE trained enough - vets, police who are trained for urban warfare - generally know better. But I'm sure the teacher who shot herself in the leg was absolutely sure she'd never be an idiot, only a hero. Sure enough that she was carrying a gun in her POCKET. She and people like her are too prevalent these days, and are just poster children for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Guns are a DISTRACTION from the teacher's primary mission, which is to keep the kids in HIS classroom safe. Not to play Rambo in the hall, and not to be some sort of Marvel hero.

Teachers are hired to teach your kids, not kill for them, or you. PERIOD.

And as an add-on, for all those who were upset that the school security guard - meaning a cop - didn't do anything? Regular cops are trained to NOT run into active shooter situations without backup. Even a cop who IS trained as part of a SWAT team won't go into a situation without full armor and backup. We have a friend - early 30s, very fit, who IS on a SWAT team. He lives in an apartment complex. The complex was all giddy, thinking he'd do empty apartment sweeps. He was like, are you INSANE? So even a highly trained guy won't run in with nothing but a pistol, and that's knowing that chances are there's no one in there. But the average school resource officer - who was NOT hired to face down shooters I might add - is supposed to run into an insanely long hall (a "kill box") with nothing but a pistol knowing that there is shooter - who is probably wearing body armor - an has a battle rifle? That's not a hero, that's just another victim.

And about some of the SWAT training of the friend who also won't run into situations where he can't win and could make things worse? The beginning of of his extensive training was wearing a gas mask while running a 100-yd dash in full body armor, then being able to hit a 6 inch pie plate at 50 feet, 4 times in about 3 seconds.

And yet somehow we want to delude ourselves that there is some level of training that will be enough for teachers to be able to prevail where trained professionals wouldn't touch the situation without a team and full armor and years of training. I can barely fathom this is even being seriously considered.

Here's a great piece (that isn't behind a paywall) from Esquire, on this topic.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a18698737/what-veterans-say-about-arming-teachers/

I'll excerpt some:

"A school is not a combat zone. Somebody who is a sheriff’s deputy at a high school, a security officer, are they running ranges every day? Is he proficient with a firearm? There is a difference between being proficient with a firearm and someone who is in the mindset in which they are ready to engage at all times. Which takes us right to the heart of this idiocy of this proposal to arm teachers.

People don't come back from patrol in Afghanistan and grade papers. Are we going to be asking teachers to act out scenarios when they're clearing rooms with fellow teachers, stacking on a door? Is that what we’re expecting of teachers?

Beyond the training one is doing physically, I think it’s always important to remember the training and the great lengths the military goes to to get someone in a mental position to engage someone. We talk all the time about how teachers are dealing with things on a day-to-day basis that require extra levels of empathy. You know what requires no empathy? Shooting another human being. We’d be forcing teachers to go to great lengths to dehumanize their own students."

 

[missy]

Arming a minority of teachers is very stupid.

Arming ANY of them is very stupid.

Just because there are a few who are stupid enough to think they could and should be armed around children or teens - or that the psychological damage to co-workers and kids, of being around armed people all the time, is negligible - doesn't make it any less stupid.

People who ARE trained enough - vets, police who are trained for urban warfare - generally know better. But I'm sure the teacher who shot herself in the leg was absolutely sure she'd never be an idiot, only a hero. Sure enough that she was carrying a gun in her POCKET. She and people like her are too prevalent these days, and are just poster children for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Guns are a DISTRACTION from the teacher's primary mission, which is to keep the kids in HIS classroom safe. Not to play Rambo in the hall, and not to be some sort of Marvel hero.

Teachers are hired to teach your kids, not kill for them, or you. PERIOD.

And as an add-on, for all those who were upset that the school security guard - meaning a cop - didn't do anything? Regular cops are trained to NOT run into active shooter situations without backup. Even a cop who IS trained as part of a SWAT team won't go into a situation without full armor and backup. We have a friend - early 30s, very fit, who IS on a SWAT team. He lives in an apartment complex. The complex was all giddy, thinking he'd do empty apartment sweeps. He was like, are you INSANE? So even a highly trained guy won't run in with nothing but a pistol, and that's knowing that chances are there's no one in there. But the average school resource officer - who was NOT hired to face down shooters I might add - is supposed to run into an insanely long hall (a "kill box") with nothing but a pistol knowing that there is shooter - who is probably wearing body armor - an has a battle rifle? That's not a hero, that's just another victim.

And about some of the SWAT training of the friend who also won't run into situations where he can't win and could make things worse? The beginning of of his extensive training was wearing a gas mask while running a 100-yd dash in full body armor, then being able to hit a 6 inch pie plate at 50 feet, 4 times in about 3 seconds.

And yet somehow we want to delude ourselves that there is some level of training that will be enough for teachers to be able to prevail where trained professionals wouldn't touch the situation without a team and full armor and years of training. I can barely fathom this is even being seriously considered.

Here's a great piece (that isn't behind a paywall) from Esquire, on this topic.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a18698737/what-veterans-say-about-arming-teachers/

I'll excerpt some:

"A school is not a combat zone. Somebody who is a sheriff’s deputy at a high school, a security officer, are they running ranges every day? Is he proficient with a firearm? There is a difference between being proficient with a firearm and someone who is in the mindset in which they are ready to engage at all times. Which takes us right to the heart of this idiocy of this proposal to arm teachers.

People don't come back from patrol in Afghanistan and grade papers. Are we going to be asking teachers to act out scenarios when they're clearing rooms with fellow teachers, stacking on a door? Is that what we’re expecting of teachers?

Beyond the training one is doing physically, I think it’s always important to remember the training and the great lengths the military goes to to get someone in a mental position to engage someone. We talk all the time about how teachers are dealing with things on a day-to-day basis that require extra levels of empathy. You know what requires no empathy? Shooting another human being. We’d be forcing teachers to go to great lengths to dehumanize their own students."

100% agree. It is surreal we are even having this discussion about arming teachers.

 

[Arkteia]

Arming a minority of teachers is very stupid.

Arming ANY of them is very stupid.

Just because there are a few who are stupid enough to think they could and should be armed around children or teens - or that the psychological damage to co-workers and kids, of being around armed people all the time, is negligible - doesn't make it any less stupid.

People who ARE trained enough - vets, police who are trained for urban warfare - generally know better. But I'm sure the teacher who shot herself in the leg was absolutely sure she'd never be an idiot, only a hero. Sure enough that she was carrying a gun in her POCKET. She and people like her are too prevalent these days, and are just poster children for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Guns are a DISTRACTION from the teacher's primary mission, which is to keep the kids in HIS classroom safe. Not to play Rambo in the hall, and not to be some sort of Marvel hero.

Teachers are hired to teach your kids, not kill for them, or you. PERIOD.

And as an add-on, for all those who were upset that the school security guard - meaning a cop - didn't do anything? Regular cops are trained to NOT run into active shooter situations without backup. Even a cop who IS trained as part of a SWAT team won't go into a situation without full armor and backup. We have a friend - early 30s, very fit, who IS on a SWAT team. He lives in an apartment complex. The complex was all giddy, thinking he'd do empty apartment sweeps. He was like, are you INSANE? So even a highly trained guy won't run in with nothing but a pistol, and that's knowing that chances are there's no one in there. But the average school resource officer - who was NOT hired to face down shooters I might add - is supposed to run into an insanely long hall (a "kill box") with nothing but a pistol knowing that there is shooter - who is probably wearing body armor - an has a battle rifle? That's not a hero, that's just another victim.

And about some of the SWAT training of the friend who also won't run into situations where he can't win and could make things worse? The beginning of of his extensive training was wearing a gas mask while running a 100-yd dash in full body armor, then being able to hit a 6 inch pie plate at 50 feet, 4 times in about 3 seconds.

And yet somehow we want to delude ourselves that there is some level of training that will be enough for teachers to be able to prevail where trained professionals wouldn't touch the situation without a team and full armor and years of training. I can barely fathom this is even being seriously considered.

Here's a great piece (that isn't behind a paywall) from Esquire, on this topic.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a18698737/what-veterans-say-about-arming-teachers/

I'll excerpt some:

"A school is not a combat zone. Somebody who is a sheriff’s deputy at a high school, a security officer, are they running ranges every day? Is he proficient with a firearm? There is a difference between being proficient with a firearm and someone who is in the mindset in which they are ready to engage at all times. Which takes us right to the heart of this idiocy of this proposal to arm teachers.

People don't come back from patrol in Afghanistan and grade papers. Are we going to be asking teachers to act out scenarios when they're clearing rooms with fellow teachers, stacking on a door? Is that what we’re expecting of teachers?

Beyond the training one is doing physically, I think it’s always important to remember the training and the great lengths the military goes to to get someone in a mental position to engage someone. We talk all the time about how teachers are dealing with things on a day-to-day basis that require extra levels of empathy. You know what requires no empathy? Shooting another human being. We’d be forcing teachers to go to great lengths to dehumanize their own students."

Great post.

I feel sorry for our teachers the way it is now. Most of them are women, exhausted with the school system, parent's meetings, schedules, IEPs, what not. Some of them are married to army men or pilots, men of dangerous professions - should not this be enough stress?

As to the deputy - yes, agree with you 100%. To add to it, I read many books about WWII, about Stalingrad, and I imagine that when you are standing outside the "kill box", you don't know if the shooter is inside, or it is a sniper-like situation, or there are two or three shooters inside. Anything is possible. If people are willing to review the LV shooting, how difficult it is to determine in the beginning where the person is shooting from, how many are there, maybe it becomes more obvious.

(And the worst scenario - what if you accidentally take out a wrong student?)

I often think about Aurora movie theater shooting. Surely among 200 people in the theater, there ought to have been at least one with a gun? Did it help to take out an active shooter? No, no and no.

Increasing the amount of guns in schools statistically raises the risk of accidental discharges.

 

[ksinger]

A friend sent me this. It's perfect.