Our Moloch

[House Cat]

HouseCat - Thank you for posting this. We happened to be watching tv yesterday and saw Emma Gonzalez speaking on MSNBC (the only cable news channel we get.) She is truly remarkable and an inspiration. I believe she and her classmates are the voice of the next generation. The students expressed that they are hoping for marches in other large cities. Do you know if any marches will be going on in your area?

I don’t know, LV. I will keep my eye out to see if they are marching in our area and sign up for alerts. My middle schooler has a fear of shootings, this might be an opportunity for empowerment. I will donate.

 

[AGBF]

When I saw Emma Gonzalez speak and saw the forces of youth mobilizing in Florida, I thought of having seen this predicitve sign in a photo of the January 20, 2018 Women's March. Maybe the youth of the United States is our hope. Maybe they will carry out true equality for people regardless of whether they are gay or transgender, and maybe they will value life over guns. Maybe they will value people for more than skin color. Maybe they will not all be straight, Republican, white, rich men.

 

[cmd2014]

I’m just tired of the “but guns don’t kill people, people kill people” argument that gets trotted out every time this happens. No, people *with guns* kill people. It’s pretty hard to kill 17 school children with a knife, or a baseball bat, or the other assault weapons of choice when guns are difficult to get (funny how we don’t have this famed black market of weapons that keeps being talked about either in countries that have gun control). And the mental health argument...ok, but *every* other country in the world also has people struggling with mental health problems, including men with the triad of narcissism, social isolation, and the belief that they have been robbed of their natural place of status in society that is characteristic of mass shooters, and yet the US is the only place in the world where this happens on a regular basis. But “it’s my constitutional right” and “don’t you dare take away my toys” and the propaganda of the NRA trump everything, including the safety of your children, and so there’s just no point even talking about it any more.

 

[Matata]

But “it’s my constitutional right” and “don’t you dare take away my toys” and the propaganda of the NRA trump everything, including the safety of your children, and so there’s just no point even talking about it any more.

Silence, winks and nods, and good old boy handshakes are a few reasons why we're facing this apocalypse. Not enough noise has been made or voices and fists raised for a sustained period of time to make a difference. I'm feeling a tad more optimistic that the Stoneman Douglas survivors, who are sorely pissed off, will set an example for us to follow.

 

[Loves Vintage]

I’m just tired of the “but guns don’t kill people, people kill people” argument that gets trotted out every time this happens. No, people *with guns* kill people. It’s pretty hard to kill 17 school children with a knife, or a baseball bat, or the other assault weapons of choice when guns are difficult to get (funny how we don’t have this famed black market of weapons that keeps being talked about either in countries that have gun control). And the mental health argument...ok, but *every* other country in the world also has people struggling with mental health problems, including men with the triad of narcissism, social isolation, and the belief that they have been robbed of their natural place of status in society that is characteristic of mass shooters, and yet the US is the only place in the world where this happens on a regular basis. But “it’s my constitutional right” and “don’t you dare take away my toys” and the propaganda of the NRA trump everything, including the safety of your children, and so there’s just no point even talking about it any more.

The new argument I'm hearing is that the decline in family values in America is the cause of gun violence. I am not sure what that's supposed to mean, exactly, but I've had two people mention that to me this morning in separate conversations. I suppose the idea is that -- well, nothing we can do about that now, right, so look the other way, it's not my beloved guns, look the other way.

Incidentally, I couldn't sleep last night, so checked foxnews.com, because I wanted to see whether they were reporting on the March for our Lives, and I noticed an article about decline in family values being the cause of gun violence.

 

[cmd2014]

Silence, winks and nods, and good old boy handshakes are a few reasons why we're facing this apocalypse. Not enough noise has been made or voices and fists raised for a sustained period of time to make a difference. I'm feeling a tad more optimistic that the Stoneman Douglas survivors, who are sorely pissed off, will set an example for us to follow.

I hope you are right, Matata. For me personally, it’s not worth debating anymore. Partly because I’m not American and it’s been made clear by those on the opposing side that opinions from elsewhere are even less welcome than opinions from democrats (because reason and logic and what’s been shown to work elsewhere isn’t welcome in this debate). But mostly because in watching US politics over the past several years, I’m not convinced that anyone in a position to actually do anything is invested in doing what’s best for the people they represent. Truth doesn’t matter. Logic and reason don’t matter. Doing what’s right doesn’t matter. Only self interest matters. As evidenced by Mike Pence’s commentary on the Russian indictments. You’d think US national security would be more important than the ego of the president, but I guess not. So like every good Gen X-Er, I’m going to focus my energy on the stuff I can effect. Like #votewithyourwallet and donations to organizations that make a difference, and supporting those millennials who are rapidly becoming a voting block that has some actual influence.

 

[tkyasx78]

I think we should be talking about it. I think we should be asking people to really think if this is the society we REALLY want to live in. Are we REALLY ok with classrooms full of 6 year olds being killed and teenagers in schools being terrorized and murdered and 600 people in Vegas being shot because the shooters are almost without fail a " lone wolf " and they are constantly the exception to the gun owning population so we are helpless to even bother trying? how many exceptions should we be willing to allow before we say NO and at least TRY to reduce the number of exceptions? as of now NOTHING is being done to even try

We should be talking about it. We should be doing more than paying for funerals. Every mass shooting The Onion has started posting the same story to bring up a point and it is a good one. WE CAN do something. We CAN try. We just have to want to make changes and follow through. We are not helpless.

San Bernardino https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819578474

Isla Vista , CA https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527

Sutherland springs https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1820163660

Las Vegas https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819580358

Parkland FL https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1823016659

Charleston SC https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819577935

Take the time to read each article. Maybe it is time to redefine gun RIGHTS. With gun rights come GUN RESPONSIBILITY. Stepping up and holding the responsibility to keep one another safe is JUST as important and that second part of the responsibility has been discarded.
We should talk about it. Stepping up and setting forth common sense gun laws is NOT too much to ask. We are not helpless.

 

[cmd2014]

The new argument I'm hearing is that the decline in family values in America is the cause of gun violence. I am not sure what that's supposed to mean, exactly, but I've had two people mention that to me this morning in separate conversations. I suppose the idea is that -- well, nothing we can do about that now, right, so look the other way, it's not my beloved guns, look the other way.

Incidentally, I couldn't sleep last night, so checked foxnews.com, because I wanted to see whether they were reporting on the March for our Lives, and I noticed an article about decline in family values being the cause of gun violence.

I think it’s a dog whistle for the religious right. It’s us damn uppity feminists neglecting our husbands and (male) children and immigrants and atheists and the LGBTQ community and the school system and the government, and all the other systems that supposedly favour girls and women and immigrants and “the gays” who are to blame. Because without this shift in culture away from the unquestioned superiority of white men, white men who become mass shooters wouldn’t have so much to be so angry about (because mass shooters are predominantly angry, socially isolated white men who feel robbed of their rightful status in society by women and immigrants and assorted other hated groups if psychological research is right).

 

[AGBF]

I think it’s a dog whistle for the religious right.

To paraphrase Goring, whenever I hear the words, "family values" I reach for my revolver. (Irony intended.) Hearing "family values" on Fox News removes all doubt about its origins and intended effect (to silence women). Give me a freakin' break!

Deb

(Goring is supposedly not to the author of these words, in reality.)

 

[Maria D]

Wanna buy a raffle ticket?


Third graders are selling these in Neosho MO. Yep, it's that fabulous AR-15! Highly impressive, can kill a classroom full of kids before teacher even takes attendance. Add a perfectly legal bump stock (www.slidefire.com) to take out the entire lunchroom!


http://www.kansascity.com/news/state/missouri/article200763099.html

 

[AGBF]

Wanna buy a raffle ticket?


Third graders are selling these in Neosho MO. Yep, it's that fabulous AR-15! Highly impressive, can kill a classroom full of kids before teacher even takes attendance. Add a perfectly legal bump stock (www.slidefire.com) to take out the entire lunchroom!


http://www.kansascity.com/news/state/missouri/article200763099.html

Well...now I know one thing that can go into any new gun control legislation that is to be passed (if any ever is). I would not have thought of it if you had not posted this, Maria, so thanks for the heads up. I think there has to be a clause forbidding the sale of AR-15s and other assault rifles by Cub Scouts and Little League teams.

Deb

 

[arkieb1]

The new argument I'm hearing is that the decline in family values in America is the cause of gun violence. I am not sure what that's supposed to mean, exactly, but I've had two people mention that to me this morning in separate conversations. I suppose the idea is that -- well, nothing we can do about that now, right, so look the other way, it's not my beloved guns, look the other way.

Incidentally, I couldn't sleep last night, so checked foxnews.com, because I wanted to see whether they were reporting on the March for our Lives, and I noticed an article about decline in family values being the cause of gun violence.

Here's why that is totally BS - "family values" meaning a breakdown of the stereotypical family unit and the loss of connected communities and the church also losing it's power over people is occurring across Europe, Australia, most countries, but none of us have the amount of gun related deaths & violence that you do and the reason for that is we have way way less guns. A "breakdown in family values" is yet another BS excuse perpetrated by the NRA and other people who believe gun ownership is somehow more important than the safety and lives of every day citizens.

 

[Matata]

I agree with what arkieb1 and others have said re: family values. However, there is something wrong with our society/culture that scares and appalls me and I suspect it's due to erosion of our ethics and morals. We currently have republican leadership blaming the Stoneman Douglas victims and insulting the survivors who are speaking out and putting pressure on government. We have unconscionable sexual abuse coming to the public eye -- USA gymnastics & swimming; Weinstein et al; an ever increasing number of neo-nazis, child ****, sex slave trade, and a resurgence in racism all of which seems to be celebrated by the republican voter base. And we have the embodiment of it all represented in the orange dotard who now represents to the world what we have become.

 

[AGBF]

We have unconscionable sexual abuse coming to the public eye -- USA gymnastics & swimming; Weinstein et al; an ever increasing number of neo-nazis, child ****, sex slave trade, and a resurgence in racism all of which seems to be celebrated by the republican voter base. And we have the embodiment of it all represented in the orange dotard who now represents to the world what we have become.

I linked this article in another thread. I think the last three paragraphs of it speak to what you wrote above. It is by Paul Krugman and is in today's edition of "The New York Times".

"So what happened to the character of the G.O.P.? I’m pretty sure that in this case the personal is, ultimately, political. The modern G.O.P. is, to an extent never before seen in American history, a party built around bad faith, around pretending that its concerns and goals are very different from what they really are. Flag-waving claims of patriotism, pious invocations of morality, stern warnings about fiscal probity are all cover stories for an underlying agenda mainly concerned with making plutocrats even richer.

And the character flaws of the party end up being echoed by the character flaws of its most prominent members. Are they bad people who chose their political affiliation because it fits their proclivities, or potentially good people corrupted by the company they keep? Probably some of both.

In any case, let’s be clear: America in 2018 is not a place where we can disagree without being disagreeable, where there are good people and good ideas on both sides, or whatever other bipartisan homily you want to recite. We are, instead, living in a kakistocracy, a nation ruled by the worst, and we need to face up to that unpleasant reality."

 

[Matata]

In any case, let’s be clear: America in 2018 is not a place where we can disagree without being disagreeable, where there are good people and good ideas on both sides, or whatever other bipartisan homily you want to recite. We are, instead, living in a kakistocracy, a nation ruled by the worst, and we need to face up to that unpleasant reality."

 

[arkieb1]

I agree with what arkieb1 and others have said re: family values. However, there is something wrong with our society/culture that scares and appalls me and I suspect it's due to erosion of our ethics and morals. We currently have republican leadership blaming the Stoneman Douglas victims and insulting the survivors who are speaking out and putting pressure on government. We have unconscionable sexual abuse coming to the public eye -- USA gymnastics & swimming; Weinstein et al; an ever increasing number of neo-nazis, child ****, sex slave trade, and a resurgence in racism all of which seems to be celebrated by the republican voter base. And we have the embodiment of it all represented in the orange dotard who now represents to the world what we have become.

I blame a lot of it on angry white young men who somehow think the rest of the world, women, immigrants and everyone else they have oppressed for centuries are somehow to blame for them suddenly having to live with a new level equality that upsets their version of what the world should look like. That's it in a nutshell a backlash against equality for people that want to maintain their comfortable status up the top of the tree, where they are comfortable stepping on, sexually abusing and oppressing everyone else, as long as they maintain some perceived level of power.

 

[Calliecake]

The Florida State House rejects AR-15 style weapons ban as school shooting survivors looked on. The vote wasn’t even close (36 to 71).

I have no idea how some people live with themselves.

 

[redwood66]

I blame it on parents not teaching kids at a very young age to manage anger and expectations, problem solving, and that it ain't all gonna be roses. They also don't teach them respect for life, human or otherwise.

 

[arkieb1]

Favourite Meme I saw today;

 

[Matata]

I blame a lot of it on angry white young men who somehow think the rest of the world, women, immigrants and everyone else they have oppressed for centuries are somehow to blame for them suddenly having to live with a new level equality that upsets their version of what the world should look like. That's it in a nutshell a backlash against equality for people that want to maintain their comfortable status up the top of the tree, where they are comfortable stepping on, sexually abusing and oppressing everyone else, as long as they maintain some perceived level of power.

This is a symptom not the cause. Absent psychological or other conditions, most people aren't born angry entitled sexual predator oppressors afraid of losing power. Somehow they learn to be that way. The mechanisms for them learning to be that way need to be identified and eradicated.

 

[arkieb1]

This is a symptom not the cause. Absent psychological or other conditions, most people aren't born angry entitled sexual predator oppressors afraid of losing power. Somehow they learn to be that way. The mechanisms for them learning to be that way need to be identified and eradicated.

I think if we studied it, it would be a scaled down but similar mindset to young men fighting in Middle Eastern War Zones, conditioned to believe everyone else is "the other." Men have been assaulting women and for that matter each other for centuries, it's just we tell them it's not politically correct to hit, hurt and degrade people any more. I dunno people blame a breakdown of marriage, of the family unit, and I can clearly see with technology an isolation and a breakdown of communities for both men and women and that does have an impact - but on the flip side men have been acting as dominators and aggressors well before the internet arrived, so it's a complex mixture of society expecting men to be and behave a certain way but then not providing the resources for them to be able to deal with emotional issues, and what is expected of them.

I know a top Australian men's counsellor who counsels mainly men and she says it's like even good men have lost their way, they don't know how to just "be" any more.

 

[tkyasx78]

The florida state legislature wont even allow a DISCUSSION on gun legislation
I just dont understand how they sleep at night

 

[ksinger]

I'll repeat it because I'm just that way. (And I don't assume all of my posts get read)

If you're interested, read "Angry White Men" by Kimmel. Excellent book, even my husband read it. Written by a white sociologist who interviewed a whole bunch of angry (potentially dangerous, since he is a Jew from NY) middle-America white guys. And yeah, they are socialized to think that they are owed something by "playing by the rules" and feel "aggrieved entitlement" when things don't work out exactly so. And blame everyone but their equally white overlords for their plight.

 

[arkieb1]

I'll repeat it because I'm just that way. (And I don't assume all of my posts get read)

If you're interested, read "Angry White Men" by Kimmel. Excellent book, even my husband read it. Written by a white sociologist who interviewed a whole bunch of angry (potentially dangerous, since he is a Jew from NY) middle-America white guys. And yeah, they are socialized to think that they are owed something by "playing by the rules" and feel "aggrieved entitlement" when things don't work out exactly so. And blame everyone but their equally white overlords for their plight.

I don't think it's just angry young men, people blame this whole Millennial mindset, and generations for giving their kids too much as far as I can see it's some young women too that have a sense of "aggrieved entitlement" like never before. We, society as a whole are to blame for this.

 

[Rhea]

The florida state legislature wont even allow a DISCUSSION on gun legislation
I just dont understand how they sleep at night

$3M in election donations certainly helps toward a nice residence, top of the line tempur-pedic mattress, an interior decorator to make your bedroom a relaxing environment, a bedside table full of sleeping tablets, and a nice healthy dose of - it's a right of the American people - thinking.

 

[ksinger]

I don't think it's just angry young men, people blame this whole Millennial mindset, and generations for giving their kids too much as far as I can see it's some young women too that have a sense of "aggrieved entitlement" like never before. We, society as a whole are to blame for this.

I'm not sure where that came from, because I certainly did not imply millennials or any age by posting about a book entitled "Angry WHITE Men", and neither does the author.

And saying we're ALL to blame for "this", is one, too close to being a brush-off like replying with "ALL lives matter", and two, completely ignores the overwhelming fact that the vast majority of violent crime is committed by males. Women may feel entitled but they don't pick up a gun a mow down children when they do.

 

[arkieb1]

I'm not sure where that came from, because I certainly did not imply millennials or any age by posting about a book entitled "Angry WHITE Men", and neither does the author.

And saying we're ALL to blame for "this", is one, too close to being a brush-off like replying with "ALL lives matter", and two, completely ignores the overwhelming fact that the vast majority of violent crime is committed by males. Women may feel entitled but they don't pick up a gun a mow down children when they do.

I wasn't saying that you or the author were implying anything, I've read multiple articles implying self entitlement seems to be a curse of the Millennial, does it stretch more broadly to other age groups? Yes it probably does..... my point is this disconnected modern age we live in where many people put their own self interests before collective interests isn't necessarily gender specific. Is it age specific? Is it geographically specific? Those are rhetorical questions I like to think about. I know here in Australia at least it probably is age specific, much much older people (including white middle and working class men and women) looked after or out for each other in communities in ways we don't do any more.

As to the issue of women - I'm going to use this forum as an example, a number of women here argue pro guns just as passionately as men. What do I personally take from this in relation to US gun issues? It's kind of like this fallacy that angry white men voted in Trump except when you look closely at the statistics, a heap of women voted for him too....

Yes, I totally get the vast majority of violent crime is committed by males, but a substantial group of women too have been brainwashed to believe they need to be protected, by guns, by people like Trump, and what I'm reflecting on is that there is this notion these people's safety their way of life and so on and their rights are somehow under threat, the rights of the few (who like guns, or more specifically are somehow made to feel safe somehow by owning guns) are more important than the rights of everyone else in your society to live in complete safety.

I've been watching the protest rallies and marches of young people in the US on TV and it seems to me like the next generation, after the Millennial bracket get it, they want a more not a less connected world and are able to overcome this self entitlement, this narcissism, or what ever you want to label it that generations before them don't want to or can't grapple with. They want a better safer world for all and if they have to make sacrifices to get it then they show more of a collective willingness than their predecessors IMHO to get to that place, irrespective of gender and ethnicity.

 

[redwood66]

With all due respect there is no living in society in "complete" safety and it is a fantasy to think it could happen. Utopia does not exist except in fairytales.

 

[ksinger]

I wasn't saying that you or the author were implying anything, I've read multiple articles implying self entitlement seems to be a curse of the Millennial, does it stretch more broadly to other age groups? Yes it probably does..... my point is this disconnected modern age we live in where many people put their own self interests before collective interests isn't necessarily gender specific. Is it age specific? Is it geographically specific? Those are rhetorical questions I like to think about. I know here in Australia at least it probably is age specific, much much older people (including white middle and working class men and women) looked after or out for each other in communities in ways we don't do any more.

As to the issue of women - I'm going to use this forum as an example, a number of women here argue pro guns just as passionately as men. What do I personally take from this in relation to US gun issues? It's kind of like this fallacy that angry white men voted in Trump except when you look closely at the statistics, a heap of women voted for him too....

Yes, I totally get the vast majority of violent crime is committed by males, but a substantial group of women too have been brainwashed to believe they need to be protected, by guns, by people like Trump, and what I'm reflecting on is that there is this notion these people's safety their way of life and so on and their rights are somehow under threat, the rights of the few (who like guns, or more specifically are somehow made to feel safe somehow by owning guns) are more important than the rights of everyone else in your society to live in complete safety.

I've been watching the protest rallies and marches of young people in the US on TV and it seems to me like the next generation, after the Millennial bracket get it, they want a more not a less connected world and are able to overcome this self entitlement, this narcissism, or what ever you want to label it that generations before them don't want to or can't grapple with. They want a better safer world for all and if they have to make sacrifices to get it then they show more of a collective willingness than their predecessors IMHO to get to that place, irrespective of gender and ethnicity.

I'm glad you clarified.

I'll just reply to the highlighted for now.

Yes, yes, what's wrong with WOMEN. Didn't I hear that ad nauseum from my more liberal white male friends after the election.

Yes a heap of women voted for him. But you need to take a closer look at which women, because it does actually matter and you're applying the "women" brush a bit too broadly, or dare I say, assuming that what white women do is applicable to all women because we're still assumed to define "women".

Women married to conservative white men voted more for him, it's true, but black women voted around 94% for Clinton. So saying a heap of women says very little about women as a breed. The real numbers say quite a bit more about how much white women have internalized a fear of all they feel that that they too have to lose in the way of the status they have by standing closest to the beleaguered male group that is still at the top of the heap and still running the patriarchy. If somewhere deep in your bank of internal tapes, you believe your status in the world comes through your husband, then it's not exactly a stretch to see why most white married women voted like they did.

Of course most women think they're making their own choices, and they are. But refusing to grapple with the amount of influence the culture has on you personally, or even refusing to acknowledge that you're influenced at all, means that the culture really can't even be adequately examined. Which is always a boon to the status quo.

Here's a good not too long piece about ALL women who voted, not just the white ones. I'm sure that even now the dust has settled, the numbers are pretty spot on.

https://qz.com/833003/election-2016...whelmingly-for-clinton-except-the-white-ones/

 

[Calliecake]

I have litttle hope of things changing dramatically in this country regarding guns in the near future. A republican commenter was speaking last night on a news program saying the young people shouldn’t be getting on buses and demanding action from our lawmakers. He actually said now is not the time. I’m so proud of these kids for doing everything in their power to bring about change. It’s pathic that our kids are smarter, have more compassion and empathy, and genuinely care about other human beings more than our elected officials.