Open challenge to GIA and AGS about cut grading.

[strmrdr]

Come out in the open and talk to us.
Tell us about your system.
How and why it was developed?
How and why it gives a diamond the grade it does?
What does it mean to us when we are looking at diamonds?
What sets your system apart from the others out there?

The vendors/experts here do a good job of keeping us informed but I and Im sure many others would like to hear directly from you.

I talked to Leonid and the "no self-promotion rule" will not apply to these threads so you dont have to worry about self promotion.

 

[Kaleigh]

Great questions Storm, I''d like to hear what they have to say also.

 

[Maxine]

Yeah, I was just thinking: since there is often a bit of diasagreement about the best way to measure "light return" and supposedly that is a component of at least one of the systems, how will we know it exists???? Measurements, Is, BS/??????

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/25/2005 4:06:37 PM
Author: Feydakin
If you can wait a few more weeks GIA is going to do most of this at JCK.. Right now no one knows much about it and they like it that way..


BTW, how does this rate a sticky??

1> are consumers allowed at JCK? nope so that isnt the same.
2> I asked for it to be stuck at the top for a bit.

If someone from GIA wants to pop in and say wait a bit and we will do it then thats kewl with me.

 

[Mara]

Date: 5/25/2005 4:06:37 PM
Author: Feydakin

BTW, how does this rate a sticky??

I wondered the same thing!

re: what is said at JCK...hopefully one of the experts on here will come back and give us the lowdown.

and Rhino is still going to tape Leonid's speech right??

 

[Nicrez]

GIA says that they are creating new lab manuals for their new GIA Graduate Diamond and GG courses, and the whole grading system will be taught to them as well. No real info as to WHEN they will begin these lessons.

Sadly, many things get delayed in the big wheels at GIA...When I asked in class about the Fancy shape cut grading and when they thought that could be expected they actually looked at me like I had four heads. Last I checked I didn''t.

TO get into JCK you must be industry related, be sponsored by an industry professional, or own your own business with a proper company, TIN, and contacts for 4-5 years I think.... this is what they told all of us eager students. We are all basically scrabling to get someone to sponsor us, so we too can learn from these shows.

I understand why it''s not open to the public. The JCK shows are thronged with people (we got into a few as GIA students), so adding more lay peole in would be disaster and like driving on a tight schedule in the heart of LA traffic. Plus, even some lay people do get in, and they congest much of the show participants time with stupid basic questions, and stare at all the items, blocking traffic.

Strmrdr, if you can, get someone to sponsor you as part of their organization? Anyone want to adopt Strmrdr???

 

[DiamondExpert]

Strm - a lot of background for your GIA questions has been published in past Gems & Gemology articles spread over the last 10 yrs or so. I know it''s difficult to access these, but at least the public can subscribe. AGS info is even more obscure.

Even with reading these articles, the way some of them are presented provide incomplete info...in my opinion because $ are involved. Furthermore, where software is used to finalize grades such as light performance you will run into a black box.

The other thing is that until the systems are put through their interative stages and the finalized versions of these systems are running smoothly, they probably won''t release many details to the general public.

 

[niceice]

Hey Strmr, did you happen to contact one of the lab directors for the GIA and the AGS to invite them to the party? Don't know whether they'd just happen across it here on PS the week before a major trade show and all... No doubt that the GIA might be a bit shy to shed too much light on the subject prior to their official release for proprietary reasons - the last time they did Marty Haske rained on their parade like a hurricane and blew the basis for the conclusions all apart. Speaking of whom, where's he at? It's always interesting to watch Marty unwind these things... By the way, not saying that the GIA was wrong or that Marty was right, just that it makes for interesting television so to speak

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/26/2005 1:08:00 AM
Author: DiamondExpert
Strm - a lot of background for your GIA questions has been published in past Gems & Gemology articles spread over the last 10 yrs or so. I know it's difficult to access these, but at least the public can subscribe. AGS info is even more obscure.


Even with reading these articles, the way some of them are presented provide incomplete info...in my opinion because $ are involved. Furthermore, where software is used to finalize grades such as light performance you will run into a black box.


The other thing is that until the systems are put through their interative stages and the finalized versions of these systems are running smoothly, they probably won't release many details to the general public.

What it boils down to for me is the basic question of who are these cut grades for.
Are they to give dealers a leg up on the competition or are they here to help consumers?

If the labs are truly interested in helping consumers then it is consumers they need to be talking too.
If its just another marketing gimmick then just talk to the dealers and we will reject it.

I will just speak for myself and say that im tired of being marketed too.
Give me solid information to chew on or go away.
I dont want another press release or another advertisement I want data :}
There are millions of consumers flocking to the web and web boards for this very reason to research every kind of purchase but I wont speak for them.

 

[pricescope]

Let''s do not go OT in this thread. Please post only relevant comments/information. Some earlier posts were moved here: "Marketing is dead"

 

[Nicrez]

Strmrdr,

You are a very different individual. You know about the industry from a unique perspective. You are not a typical consumer. A typical consumer shops at Zales and knows the minimal amount of information to buy a diamond. You are basically as inquisitive as an industry professional, and I would dare say that you may know more about some things than some people in the industry. As such, you are not a typical consumer. GIA could explain this to the consumer market but they would not grasp these concepts with the same understanding that a few PS people and you could.

The market had not demanded to be informed as they don''t care. You care, and you want to be informed. You are an atypical consumer. Perhaps you should consider joining the industry, as you have a firm grasp on many concepts and can contribute a lot.

GIA is an industry tool. They are there to confirm and to identify characteristics of diamonds that are given to them, mostly by the trade and not individual consumers. Most consumers go to these industry people and expect the stones to already have GIA certificates. Rare ocassions do people buy stones, THEN certify them. That is why GIA was established. In order to give each stone in the industry it''s databaseable identity. Not to pacify consumers. That is a consequence of the service GIA offers to the industry, NOT a reason for GIA.

If GIA was consumer based, they would not be non-profit. But as they serve the industry, they are technically non-profit.

Their "what we do" section in the GTL site explains their connection to the industry, at least their marketed viewpoint of what they do.
http://www.gia.edu/gemtradelab/108/what_we_do.cfm

I personally don''t think the public needs the GIA as a champion for their "rights", but that the industry should be the backbone that the consumers lean on when they need assistance. Yes there is a conflict of interest, but that is the job of the JVC and the consumer to make the decisions based on their own research.

Anything else they need to know can be read in trade journals and the like, but most consumers don''t subscribe because they don''t want to. But they can.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 5/26/2005 7:55:39 PM
Author: Nicrez
Strmrdr,

You are a very different individual. You know about the industry from a unique perspective. You are not a typical consumer. A typical consumer shops at Zales and knows the minimal amount of information to buy a diamond. You are basically as inquisitive as an industry professional, and I would dare say that you may know more about some things than some people in the industry. As such, you are not a typical consumer. GIA could explain this to the consumer market but they would not grasp these concepts with the same understanding that a few PS people and you could.

The market had not demanded to be informed as they don''t care. You care, and you want to be informed. You are an atypical consumer.

VERY well, put, Nicrez.

Taking that even a step further......even all PS members don''t care to be informed to that degree.

A good percentage of folks who come only want one thing out of PS.....to learn just enough to feel confident in their purchase and make out better than the average Joe.....and that''s it. They make their purchase, and then they go.....that''s the extent of it for them.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 5/26/2005 1:32:27 AM
Author: niceice

Speaking of whom, where's he at? It's always interesting to watch Marty unwind these things...

Marty's busy trying to finish up my SAS-2000 before heading to the Vegas show on Wednesday. When I talked to him today he told me he barely had time to surface for air.

I think the guy works on about four hours of sleep a night. He says he does his best work from about 10pm to 4am, when his phone stops ringing...

 

[pricescope]

Got a message from GIA. They are not going to debate the issue here and suggest to read their publication on that matter in their magazine.

 

[Nicrez]

Funny, I read that article in Gems & Gemology. Like a true gem dork I waited anxiously for it, and read it completely. I didn''t get it. It seemed very technical, but proved very little...

Did anyone else read it? What was your impression???

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I have read it several times to Nic, and I think the comprehension-abilty has fallen with each new article, in direct proportion to the number of authors.
There have been 3 articles far, and I have attended many presentations - and the standard line is "Watch this space".

I doubt there will be any major announcements at Vegas - there is too much work to be done with the rough planning black box software, the appraiser software and getting the word out to cutters.

My guess is we will have a GIA system early next year. it is as someone said in this thread - big organizations move slowly.

It was a nice idea to invite Bill and Peter to become involved in discussions here, but they are somewhat constrained by Boards of Govenors etc, and it would not be that easy for them. Or course those of us who are web savvy know that within a few years most of the worlds larger organisations will have turned their PR dept''s into Blogging services - but conservative trinket gem and jewel associations will not be early adopters. I can understand that.

 

[Serg]

Hi, Strmrdr

Did you read
http://www.cutstudy.com/cut/english/conferens-article/index.htm
?

 

[Serg]

http://www.cutstudy.com/cut/english/conferens-article/_4.htm

I hope this link is interesting too.

 

[strmrdr]

Yes serg Iv read them at one time or another.
..................

It is consumers that ultimately decide if a cert is useful to them and which one to trust.
Certs survive because many consumers accept them for now as proof that the diamond is what it is supposed to be.
It would not take long for that to change.
Bad things about a company spread at nearly the speed of light these days.

The new cut grades are going to matter more to picky technical consumers than consumers that just go out and say I want a diamond.

The picky consumers who make recommendations are getting more important as time goes on.
Pricescope shows that.
I may only buy at most a few dozen very small diamonds and maybe one large one in my lifetime but I have had a voice in the sale of thousands.
So has Mara and Al and Belle and all the other regulars here.
Talk to us in a no BS manner, give us information and treat us like people instead of wallets to extract money from, is that too much to ask?

 

[Nicrez]

Storm, so far, PS consumers have made a large impact on the online market, but a minimal impact on the diamond market as a WHOLE. Again, majority dictates that consumers are still in the dark about gems and many do not care to know more about them, as they buy usually a few key pieces in their life that require some knowledge. E-rings, and earrings, possibly pendants, but generally that''s what the AVERAGE consumer buys.

Yes, the market is getting more saavy, but it is happening a lot slower than in PS. Here PS consumers have a say in many people''s decisions and opening their eyes to cut being important, BUT I guarantee you that on 47th street there is about 10-15 average joes out there buying an e-ring for every ONE customer on PS. At least.

You really are much more interested in the industry than any average person. When you say to be treated like people, does that mean talk to you as an industry professional? That''s like speaking Spanish to the Swedish market.

Date: 5/27/2005 8:59:12 AM
Author: strmrdr
Yes serg Iv read them at one time or another.
..................

It is consumers that ultimately decide if a cert is useful to them and which one to trust.
Certs survive because consumers accept them for now as proof that the diamond is what it is supposed to be.

The new cut grades are going to matter more to picky technical consumers than consumers that just go out and say I want a diamond.

Talk to us in a no BS manner, give us information and treat us like people instead of wallets to extract money from, is that too much to ask?

Consumers usually choose diamonds, NOT certificates. People can look for diamonds with a certain brand of certificate (although on average people outside of PS don''t). Diamonds don''t come with a choice of certs, and people don''t really often get a stone recerted to have the brand they like most.

You say certificates survive because consumers accpet them for now. Consumers again are not the primary targets or the beneficial parties to the certificates as much as the industry is. Consumers just get the bonus of having an authority certify the facts of the diamond as they see it with their name behind it. A diamond without a cert is dangerous in the industry for many reasons:

1) You lend out the stone to ensure it is sold, but if you can''t properly identify it, it can be switched on you.
2) You can lend out your stone to a store and if the last cert didn''t state a chip or other damage, then the person borrowing it will have to pay.
3) It''s also a way of ensuring the diamond is not stolen or illegally processed. No one wants to have their inventory unsellable or confiscated.

These are big money savers if they can be avoided, and that''s what certificates do. They determine the market price for stones as well. And the first market to BUY a diamond isn''t the consumer. It''s the wholesalers or diamond sellers. There are still channels between the mine and the consumer in MOST places, even online. I could be mistaken, but there is a MINIMAL amount of online diamond sellers who buy rough and cut it themselves.

So you see, the mystery of this is in the industry so far. I agree GIA has not been forth coming, but that''s important to the INDUSTRY much more than to the public. The public would not know what to do with the intimate details of the cut grade system. Some people find it already hard to understand the CURRENT GIA certs!

But rest assured when it hits markets of consumers, GIA will make sure people know about the "advancement" of their cut grading... Just maybe not to your satisfaction.

I suggest you enter the industry and start asking questions from the inside, so you don''t get outsider answers...

 

[strmrdr]

Nicrez,
Thats just it companies that treat their customers as outsiders to be exploited are falling fast these days.
Look around at the gaming box industry (x-box and others) they kiss butt to more than a few consumer gaming sites because they have learned that the best marketing is consumer to consumer.
There have been several computer companies that have went from nothing to large companies on Internet word of mouth.
It used to be if I liked something I could tell very few people about it now I can tell thousands if not millions.

Companies/Groups that are stuck in the dark ages of pre-net are in deep trouble.
Like it or not consumers thru the web are taking control of a lot of markets.

Im not going to steal Leonid''s thunder but you need to see his presentation.

If diamonds with certs didnt sell better than those without there would be no certs.
Consumers drive the demand for certs not the industry.
As more consumers get educated about them the level of trust needed is going to rise.
Those labs that reach out to consumers in the early days are going to be in a better position that those that dont.
A consumer that hasnt been exposed to the net might believe it when told that an egl-isreal or igi or thecertcomp cert is as good as a gia or ags cert, we dont because we know better and that knowledge is spreading rapidly.

 

[pricescope]

What Storm sez. Check out Economist: The harder hard sell


Euro RSCG, a big international agency, is completing a nine-country study of prosumers, which it says can represent 20% or so of any particular group. They can be found everywhere, are at the vanguard of consumerism, and what they say to their friends and colleagues about brands and products tends to become mainstream six to 18 months later. They also vary by category, says Marc Lepere, Euro RSCG''s chief marketing officer: a wine prosumer, for instance, will not necessarily be a prosumer of cars.

Such people often reject traditional ads and invariably use the internet to research what they are going to buy and how much they are going to pay for it. Half of prosumers distrust companies and products they cannot find on the internet. If they want to influence prosumers, says Mr Lepere, companies have to be extremely open about providing information.

 

[Nicrez]

Well said Cranky Dave. I do think it''s always good to makert to consumers, such as an ad in the Wall Street Journal that says "GIA''s new diamond cut certificates. To rest assured you get what you pay for." But to make it any more specific and to explain the reasons why you should TRUST GIA would be tough.

They would then have to proceed to include technical information on HOW they determined what makes a good cut. We are talking PAGES of material here. Even in the G&G article, they actually explained terminology and technical phrases, that as a student of Gemology I hadn''t heard of. Some terms may even be foreign to people in the bsuiness who never dealt with specific physics of light return, but are interested in the knowledge for their business.

One thing I noticed is there is tactical knowledge and there is analytical knowledge. Even within the industry some people have the studies and analytics which are important in theory and the evolution of technology within the industry. Then we have the tactical people who can look at a stone and tell you if it will sell at $1.5M or $1.0M in an auction beause they have another set of very useful information. They can alayze the cut (without numbers), they can look at a stone, and tell maybe even who cut it, when and how much it would go for based on it''s history and the market. Rarely do these two people coexist in one body. And these guys are possibly masters of the industry.

I think the point here is that not everyone inside or outside of the industry can understand the analytical aspects of cut grading. It''s almost a waste of money to even try explaining it to the outside when you need to make so much effort to explain it to the people INSIDE...

As much as you think that the consumers are ready to be flooded with technical information, a very select few will understand it all, and it will be a waste of money on GIA''s part. Just to announce that the new system is here is one thing, but to actually explain it to the masses is truly a waste. if they are interested enough, as Dave said, they can read about it in trade journals.

When cloning became a possibility every article I read about it was an understandable abstract of science that helped you put together HOW, but didn''t delve into semantics of genetic chemistry. Imagine a New England Journal of Medicine article placed in the New York Post.

People would rather read about Britney and J-Lo than about cut science. We are not there yet, an although we are getting more knowledgeable, it is still too soon to push for a marketing revolution without the market supporting that revolution...

X-Box demographics are also very different. Most of the avid players are very educated or at least tech saavy adults who have the same tech skills required to understand the games. Diamond buyers are MUCH more diverse and can range from engineers to simple machine operators. Some with PHDs, and others with no HS degree. The engineers are a small subsect that does not constitute the market.

I understand your argument, I just think you may be outside the industry trying to bring it to you, when all you need to do is to go to IT.

 

[pricescope]

Date: 5/27/2005 11:09:02 AM
Author: Nicrez

As much as you think that the consumers are ready to be flooded with technical information, a very select few will understand it all, and it will be a waste of money on GIA's part. Just to announce that the new system is here is one thing, but to actually explain it to the masses is truly a waste. if they are interested enough, as Dave said, they can read about it in trade journals.

Nic, what waste of money are you talking about?

I don't think you should worry about GIA money nobody is taking them away

So far we see the attitude "we are the foremost authority and you must shut up and consume".

from GIA's Mission Statement: "Established in 1931, the nonprofit Gemological Institute of America (GIA) is the world's foremost authority in gemology"

At the same time:

GIA AND ITS EMPLOYEES AND AGENTS SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY LOSS, DAMAGE OR EXPENSE RESULTING FROM ANY ERROR IN OR OMISSION FROM THIS REPORT OR FROM THE ISSUANCE OF OR USE OF THIS REPORT OR ANY INSCRIPTION, EVEN IF THE LOSS, DAMAGE OR EXPENSE WAS CAUSED BY OR RESULTED FROM NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER FAULT ... OF GIA OR ANY OR ITS EMPLOYEES OR AGENTS


What the "world's foremost authority" is responsible for?

 

[strmrdr]

Nicrez,
You raised a very good question why should consumers trust GIA if they are working for the trade?

The insider/outsider is the attitude that consumers are fighting against.
The industry doesnt get it. There are a lot of failed computer companies that had the same attitude.
Its to hard they will never understand it blah blah.
I know of a 75 year old grandma that builds her own computers and runs linux.
Why do companies always assume consumers are idiots?

You havent hung around with many machine operators have you?
Frankly I find you comment insulting.
In this day and age they are more technical in their area than a lot of the so called experts.
The simple repetative jobs have been automated and machine operators are expected to not only run their machines but to be experts in keeping them running and to know when something is wrong before it becomes a huge problem.
Companies are spending millions on education to achieve this.

 

[Nicrez]

Their attitude is only there based on their position as the most widely recognized and respected gem lab.

Recently I was looking to work for a gem lab, and speaking to people from all sides of the industry, auction houses, wholesalers, family businesses, cutters...all of them said that to work in GTL is more presitgious than any other gem lab. Perhaps a specialist would have a different view for colored stones for labs like Guebelin or in AGS for round stones or what have you. But consistantly people said GIA.

When I went looking for courses to take, consistantly people told me to only get a GIA degree for Gemologist.

In the trade and for consumers a GIA lab reported stone will sell at a higher price than most others. Again GIA.

And when I asked people about trade magazines, everyone mentioned Gems & Gemology... Again GIA.

I don''t think it''s some bizarre conspiracy to boost GIA, I just think that the size of GIA versus other labs is what allows them to spread out to wider audiences and makes them "the leading authority" so far. Like Microsoft.

Computer people will argue that Mac is far better than PCs, but PCs are still dominant. Microsoft is the leading authority on software because they marketed themselves right and positioned themselves as the authority on operating systems. Are there better systems? Yes. Linux for example, but it''s a specialty and not a majority.

GIA is not evil for being successful and admitting it. I guess until someone out there dethrones them (perhaps their sister company AGS may), then I don''t see the issue I suppose with them using their status as a marketing angle. If it was EGL saying that, I would question it...

 

[Nicrez]

Date: 5/27/2005 12:26:10 PM
Author: strmrdr
Nicrez,
You raised a very good question why should consumers trust GIA if they are working for the trade?

The insider/outsider is the attitude that consumers are fighting against.
The industry doesnt get it. There are a lot of failed computer companies that had the same attitude.
Its to hard they will never understand it blah blah.
I know of a 75 year old grandma that builds her own computers and runs linux.
Why do companies always assume consumers are idiots?

You havent hung around with many machine operators have you?
Frankly I find you comment insulting.
In this day and age they are more technical in their area than a lot of the so called experts.
The simple repetative jobs have been automated and machine operators are expected to not only run their machines but to be experts in keeping them running and to know when something is wrong before it becomes a huge problem.
Companies are spending millions on education to achieve this.

If from my entire statement you get two points of offense from my using machine operators as an example, then fine, you win. My apologies to any SIMPLE machine operator who feels that his PHD was glossed over. Are there people out there like that, sure. Are they the norm? no.

Niether are 80 year old grandmothers building their own motherboard and operating Linux systems. I have not met one yet, and if you polled people across America how many do you think you will find percentage wise?

You speak in minorities but I don't see it being a majority that follows your belief. Even on PS people may read the articles that are technical, but what gets the most posts? the Show Me the Ring Forum and anything concerning controversy, gossip, and general entertainment or diamond picking and choosing.

YOU are the exception. Consumer who are fighting against the diamond industry are who exactly? Cranky Dave rightly said that any information you want is pretty much out there on the net. If you look, you shall find. So what is being held from you? I merely want to understand this issue, because right now I don't see the issue.

I have issues with GIA in general, but "not letting consumers in" isn't one of them...

 

[pricescope]

Date: 5/27/2005 12:27:50 PM
Author: Nicrez

...Like Microsoft...

Perhaps you need to see http://blogs.msdn.com/ and http://channel9.msdn.com/ and http://www.asp.net and http://msdn.microsoft.com/office/community/default.aspx and many many other forums and blogs ran or supported by Microsoft

 

[Nicrez]

Amen.

I went yesterday to talk to a priest about marrying us, and he mentioned that when I baptize my child under the Catholic religion, they require that I sign a waiver form that I was no coerced into baptising my child into the religion. How's THAT for the bottom rung of a letigious society?!

 

[pricescope]

Date: 5/27/2005 12:45:54 PM
Author: crankydave
You know exactly what this is for Leonid. Your ''terms of service'' for pricescope are all encompassing. Your ''LIMITATION OF LIABILITY AND DISCLAIMERS'' is 4 paragraphs long. Please don''t say you don''t claim to be the ''worlds foremost authorty'' because if you were they''d be there just the same.

Because of the letigious society we live in, any entity, worlds foremost authority or not, must protect their interests from ridiculous people filing ridiculous lawsuits over ridiculous reasons.

Dave

I knew you''ll bite it, Dave.

And you know the answer. PS service is free and we don''t call ourself the "world authority" or "industry leader".

See our mission statement for comparison. Besides we are open for discussions