Older GIA certification

[adom]

Curious how the rest of you would respond to a jeweler showing you a stone with GIA certification from 1995.

 

[kenny]

Curious how the rest of you would respond to a jeweler showing you a stone with GIA certification from 1995.

20 Years Old?
I'd ask the jeweler to get a new GIA report.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Curious how the rest of you would respond to a jeweler showing you a stone with GIA certification from 1995.

20 Years Old?
I'd ask the jeweler to get a new GIA report.

Yup!

 

[adom]

If I were certain I was considering the stone, I would push the issue. Right now I am more reflecting on what I was shown. I was shown 6 stones; One GIA 1995, two EGL, two non-certified, and one GIA 2014. When I questioned the 1995, I was told they had just not bothered to re-certify the stone.

For future reference, what are the reasons a buyer should be concerned about an old certification? Should the price on an older certified stone be any different?

 

[Dancing Fire]

If I were certain I was considering the stone, I would push the issue. Right now I am more reflecting on what I was shown. I was shown 6 stones; One GIA 1995, two EGL, two non-certified, and one GIA 2014. When I questioned the 1995, I was told they had just not bothered to re-certify the stone.

For future reference, what are the reasons a buyer should be concerned about an old certification? Should the price on an older certified stone be any different?

Pass on these 4 stones.

 

[kenny]

When I questioned the 1995, I was told they had just not bothered to re-certify the stone. ?

Tell them to 'bother'.

In 20 years things, like damage, may have happened to the stone so it no more longer matches the report.
Passing it off on an uninformed buyer may be what they are trying to get away with.

Also, today GIA has better equipment to detect undesirable things, like treatments.

 

[adom]

I thought to question the certification because somewhere recently I had read that you should question certifications that were much more than a year old. The question that was suggested was "is this a previously owned stone". I did not understand why that would even matter, but I am guessing it relates to what kenny just mentioned and that a used stone might also include some damage. Do I have that right? I did ask where the stone had been for 20 years and was it used.

 

[kenny]

Diamonds do not get thrown away upon death and divorce.
Many go back into the retail system.

With a new report (after a re-polish if needed) nobody's the wiser.
I believe GIA confiscates the old report ... they do not want a diamond out there with two GIA reports.
I doubt diamond retailers really would want to tell you you are proposing with a 'divorce diamond' or a 'death diamond'.
Besides, they may not even know.

Personally I don't care if someone else wore it before I did.
I'm not superstitious and all diamonds are million of years anyway.
I heard gold today likely to have been blended with gold from many places and times, even (gruesomely) dental work from those who died in the Holocaust.

Some people will care that their diamond was freshly mined.
To each their own.

I'm surprised the vendor even tried to sell it with a 20-yr old report.

 

[Gypsy]

I would require they it re-certified. And get it in writing that the price doesn't change if it comes back high color or clarity.

If they can't be bothered, then I suggest you be bothered and take your business somewhere else. That's not acceptable.

If you ever have a problem with your purchase, you can bet they 'won't want to be bothered' if they are acting like this BEFORE they have your money.

 

[Luce]

The 20 year old cert will not have detailed information on the cut as well. Near GIA cert will list crown and pavilion angles.

 

[Luce]

....sorry, meant to say newer certs will list more info on the cut.

 

[adom]

Thanks all. It was just a strange experience for me and it began nagging at me after I left and got a chance to think about it all.

 

[WinkHPD]

If I were certain I was considering the stone, I would push the issue. Right now I am more reflecting on what I was shown. I was shown 6 stones; One GIA 1995, two EGL, two non-certified, and one GIA 2014. When I questioned the 1995, I was told they had just not bothered to re-certify the stone.

For future reference, what are the reasons a buyer should be concerned about an old certification? Should the price on an older certified stone be any different?

Yes. In 1995 GIA did not even have a cut grading standard on their reports. This diamond could be a nightmare and you would not be able to read that on the report. (Of course, with GIA's current cut grading standards the diamond could still be substandard in the beauty department and you would only know it if you knew enough about diamond cutting to at least have a clue what to look for.)

If the diamond was owned and then returned it should have had a new report issued as a matter of course in my opinion. (Many good reasons listed above by others.)

If the diamond was sitting in the store since 1995, I WOULD WANT TO KNOW WHAT WAS WRONG WITH IT TO THE POINT THAT NO ONE WOULD BUY IT SINCE 1995. Just guessing here, but I think it is not because it is the most beautiful diamond in the store.

To me, the FACT that they are offering you EGL reports is a very negative strike against the retailer in my opinion, unless they told you as part of the presentation that those reports are normally worth less than the paper they are written upon. They have become so disreputable that Rap.net has prohibited trading them on their network.

I have no problem with you being offered a diamond with no grading report, but you need to know that if you EVER intend to sell the diamond, that you will need a GIA report on the diamond, unless it is cut well enough to deserve an AGSL report. You also need to know enough to look at the diamond through a loupe and with comparison diamonds to see if you agree with the promised color and clarity grades. If you are not competent at grading diamonds, only buy a properly graded diamond with either GIA or AGSL report if you are in the United States.

Wink

 

[adom]

Wink,

Thanks for your response. What I find most interesting is that you feel that an EGL stone is a greater ding on the jeweler than a non-cert stone.

The 1995 cert, the clerk did not even know what I was talking about when I had pointed out the lack of diagram or cut grading on the certification. When I questioned the date and asked it the stone were pre-loved, she mentioned that they had "bought it from another dealer" and had not bothered to get it re-certified. When I stated that I had read that any stones with certifications more than a year old should be questioned. She asked whether what I had read had made a reference to whether the diamond should be priced differently. I told her that that point was not clarified in my reading.

All and all, great to get all the insights.

As for the actual stone, it was sparkly under the spot lights, but they all are. It was in a setting, but they would take it out to sell. The one aspect I did like about it was the stone looked larger than its size when face up. But, that also sets off alarms in my mind. Was the stone poor cut and shallow or was that just in comparison to other stones that might have been deep and smaller face. More reason to have wanted a cut grading report.

 

[Gypsy]

EGL is a huge ding. A reputable dealer wouldn't even suggest it.

 

[WinkHPD]

Wink,

Thanks for your response. What I find most interesting is that you feel that an EGL stone is a greater ding on the jeweler than a non-cert stone.

The 1995 cert, the clerk did not even know what I was talking about when I had pointed out the lack of diagram or cut grading on the certification. When I questioned the date and asked it the stone were pre-loved, she mentioned that they had "bought it from another dealer" and had not bothered to get it re-certified. When I stated that I had read that any stones with certifications more than a year old should be questioned. She asked whether what I had read had made a reference to whether the diamond should be priced differently. I told her that that point was not clarified in my reading.

All and all, great to get all the insights.

As for the actual stone, it was sparkly under the spot lights, but they all are. It was in a setting, but they would take it out to sell. The one aspect I did like about it was the stone looked larger than its size when face up. But, that also sets off alarms in my mind. Was the stone poor cut and shallow or was that just in comparison to other stones that might have been deep and smaller face. More reason to have wanted a cut grading report.

Many reputable jewelers sell accurately graded non-papered diamonds. They will most likely not have the full measurements of the diamond to share with you, but they have personally selected these diamonds with THEIR money, so at least they know that they like them. They could not sell these diamonds on the net, but with their good local reputations they have little to no problem selling them to their local clientele. I bought many non papered diamonds every time I traveled to Antwerp and then I would bring them home, get them papered, and most often forget that I had the paper.

When I moved my location six years ago I had a stack of unused GIA and AGSL reports that I had never thought to present to my local clients. All of those stones were sold completely without reference to the reports. A couple that I thought had "lucky reports" by GIA were sold at the one grade lower color or clarity grade that I believed the diamond to have. Those reports had been gathering dust, some of them for more than twenty years as they were just not that important to my local clientele. Once I became a dealer of the diamonds I now represent that habit changed, as I now needed my clients to have those reports for trade ins and buy backs. Also, by that time people were starting to become aware of reports, whether or not they were buying on line. So, in my mind, lack of reports by local jewelers does not equate with lack of knowledge, since I think it takes more knowledge to grade and buy diamonds without reports than to use them as a crutch when you are a professional.

When an EGL report is tendered, the vendor KNOWS it is most likely a worthless piece of paper and it is used for one reason only, to create in the mind of the uneducated that they are getting a great deal when they are getting hosed. (Or at least they should, but many vendors are helplessly under educated. It is a huge stain on my profession that so many of the "professionals" know so little about what they are selling.

Even those of us who have made a constant effort to be on top of our profession had to raise our level of effort when Pricescope came along. Stumble, even a little, and there are dozens of professionals and prosumers waiting to jump to your "assistance" and straighten you out. (Said with good humor and a chuckle, I have been on both sides of that equation.)

I have often said, and I mean it, that the average Pricescope prosumer knows more than 80 - 90 percent of the jewelers in this county. It is probably even more embarrassing than that. I know that Pricescope has made me a much better jeweler as I have worked hard to stay current with new information and to share it with the people here.

Actually, to be totally honest, I really miss the "CUT WARS" that we had here for some time. Highly educated professionals staked out a bit of the new knowledge and defended their point of view while others whittled away at them trying to prove their point of view. It was a fascinating time to be a vendor, and people like Paul Slegers and John Pollard were great educators as was Garry Holloway, Jonathon, Stormrider and others. What made it so exciting is that many times these people disagreed with one another and sparks flew. Oh, how I miss those days! Eventually, the work done by the AGSL with Pete Yantzer, Jose Sassian, Jimmy Caudill, Q (Jason Quick) and Richard von Sternberg resulted in the new AGS cut grading system and much of the fire went out of the debates. Not that we don't still disagree about some of the finer points, but we do not have the often passionate and heated conversations that we had back then, and I miss them.

Wink

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI All,
Adom- I agree that a '95 report is a problem- But I would not say any report older than a year represents an issue.
I'd say a five year old report would cause me to consider re-submitting....maybe others feel differently.
Also totally agree that a dealer showing you EGL graded stones without a very thorough explanation, and an offer to send the stone to GIA to verify a grade....that's a huge issue....

Wink I was part of the wars too ( still am)....and there are DEFINITELY still aspects of AGSL cut grading which are not broadly agreed upon......just sayin'

 

[denverappraiser]

Wink,

Thanks for your response. What I find most interesting is that you feel that an EGL stone is a greater ding on the jeweler than a non-cert stone.

The problem with EGL is that it tells you rather little about the stone, but it tells you quite a bit about the dealer.

 

[adom]

Very interesting replies, all. Thank you.

The last time I looked at a diamond it was a good while ago and I am trying to catch on quickly. This site is helping, as are many terrific youtube videos (they help because seeing examples is easier for me to follow since I am lacking in the terminology).

I know I am dribbling out the details of my encounter as I am very cautious about the possibility of ever embarrassing someone, though I doubt the gem shop reads this site. Still, that is not my style.

But you will find the EGL certificate discussion interesting. In an effort to make the EGL more appealing, she point out to me that she wanted me to know that I have to "pay more for a GIA stone". I tried as politely as possible to tell her that that is true only because the GIA stone is actually the grading stated on the certificate. I actually had to say it more than once since she repeated her comment about GIA stones several times during my visit.

One of the non-certs, though looked eye clean under the spotlight, then when viewed with my loupe it had a feather under the crown(?) that looked like it came off a bird. The other non-cert had a black inclusion at the transition from the table to the crown. She commented how there were two. I am 99% certain that is was 1 that was duplicated by the facets because they we unique yet identical and one kept disappearing, but I could be wrong. Between everything, I felt like I knew more from my two weeks and I am not in the business.

The clerk definitely seemed confused by everything I had to say.

Oh, and how would you respond if a clerk freaked out when you tried to take a picture of the one setting that seemed a possibility (this was actually the first visit where they pursued my coming back to view diamonds)? It was a white gold tapered band with 6 prong cathedral mount. Not exactly a unique custom item I wanted to copy. But is that standard protocol that a customer should not take pictures? If it was my mistake, I would rather not repeat it.

Lastly, if any of you experienced folk have any interested in giving me pointers on potential gem show shopping. I have gotten little advice on my other thread. I am contemplating buying an ideal and an aset scope. Situation is complicated, but I want to make the best of any opportunity that may be at the show.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I walk down a street, on a daily basis, that is filled with people who are doing exactly what this person is doing to you. I'll bet if you ask for a money back guarantee in writing the seller might have objections.
It's a shame, because in my opinion, honesty and integrity are worth more than any sale. But somehow these places have stayed in business for many years- paying huge rents no less. Someone's falling for this stuff....

Or maybe the sales clerk was knows little about the diamond business, and was schooled to say what she's saying by someone else.
You'd think that if that was your job, you'd take time to learn a bit by searching online.

As far as stones with no reports from a seller using the sales tactics employed here- I'd be extremely skeptical.

IN either case, you're past the point of allowing yourself to be taken in by high pressure sales.

The ASET and IS are cool- but not essential for you to pick a stone you love.
If you stick to GIA or AGSL graded diamonds, you're not likely to go far astray.

Unfortunately for B&M sellers, the largest online sellers are offering GIA graded stones at extremely competitive prices- so it's hard for stores to compete on honestly graded stones.
Increased margin is one reason sellers push EGL graded stones.

Pictures: personally I never have objections when clients, or potential clients take pictures of our rings. Why object? Maybe they'll post it on Twittergram and it will go viral
I'd simply ask next time- many sellers won't mind.

 

[adom]

RockDiamond,

You mentioned that IS and Aset are not necessary and to just work off the reports. That is exactly what I would have done until I watched a GOG youtube video that showed either or both IS and Aset of two GIA excellent stones and the results showed them not performing equally (I have also seen videos demonstrating that not all stones in the same color grade are the same color arghh).

How would you address that? Is it that those difference as so minimal? Or can the chart numbers tell me what the scopes would say? I read a lot of discussion on the evil light leakage. Just yesterday I saw the HCA calculator and cut class tool. Thoughts on them? I need to test if they will work on an iPhone.

Pictures: The setting was empty and I did not think because the chain store just prior allowed me to take picture and the woman even stated what a good idea that was. Will certainly ask before in the future, I am guessing I would have gotten a "no" with that particular jeweler anyhow.

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI Adom,
If you read that I suggested using reports alone to purchase, either I wrote badly, or you read badly
That is not at all what I'm suggesting.
I am saying that if you're looking at diamonds in person, the ASET and or IS are not necessary. Selecting online brings different considerations. In that case, there's a stronger argument for IS/ASET, yet there's still a lot of problems with that approach.
Mainly, what is the "best" light performance?

AS far as tools, and dealers promoting those tools in videos, or other places.
It's part of selling- not part of gemological education. There are stones that GIA grades EX that some people would refuse based on ASET/IS, yet people picking based on looking at the diamond will pick those stones that the AS/IS may ding.

 

[denverappraiser]

Oh, and how would you respond if a clerk freaked out when you tried to take a picture of the one setting that seemed a possibility (this was actually the first visit where they pursued my coming back to view diamonds)? It was a white gold tapered band with 6 prong cathedral mount. Not exactly a unique custom item I wanted to copy. But is that standard protocol that a customer should not take pictures? If it was my mistake, I would rather not repeat it.

The reason jewelers and others don’t like pictures in the showroom is because they don’t want you taking the photo to some competitor and asking for a bid. They’ve got a valid point, especially on custom or in-house designs. The alternative offered may or may not be a genuinely comparable item, pictures aren’t very good at telling the details, and their job is to sell you something, not to empower some knockoff artist to copy their designs.

That said, it’s a common request most jewelers just deal with it. By all means ask before you start snapping pictures, and stop if they ask you to. It’s their store. Feel free to ask, but I wouldn't suggest you hold it against them if they say no. At the same time, if you find it annoying, it won’t be difficult to come up with a seller who is more cooperative with the way you like to shop. There are a lot of jewelers out there.

 

[Gypsy]

I know you said situation is complicated. But why are you.wasting time with these people? Maybe we can uncomplicate it with you.

 

[adom]

So Rock diamond, to recap what I think you are saying is that if you are in person, start with the lab report and then go with what you observe in person and that when in person, tools like the IS and ASET are not needed. While online, having the IS and ASET images provided help one assess what that diamond might be like in person. All and all, I should not waste money on owning scopes. Is there anything you would specifically be looking for in that lab report before further examining that stone in person?

Denver appraiser, I totally get it now. Like I mentioned above, I might have understood if it was custom/unique. It was actually very ordinary. But I will be more thoughtful going forward. Thank you for putting it in perspective. ☺

 

[WinkHPD]

HI Adom,
If you read that I suggested using reports alone to purchase, either I wrote badly, or you read badly
That is not at all what I'm suggesting.
I am saying that if you're looking at diamonds in person, the ASET and or IS are not necessary. Selecting online brings different considerations. In that case, there's a stronger argument for IS/ASET, yet there's still a lot of problems with that approach.
Mainly, what is the "best" light performance?

AS far as tools, and dealers promoting those tools in videos, or other places.
It's part of selling- not part of gemological education. There are stones that GIA grades EX that some people would refuse based on ASET/IS, yet people picking based on looking at the diamond will pick those stones that the AS/IS may ding.

In my opinion, what is the best light performance is the diamond that is selected in an overwhelming majority of cases when that diamond is put on a slotted tray with other diamonds of varying levels of cutting quality and nothing is said about the diamonds other than, "Which one do your eyes like best?"

I find it almost never happens that a steep deep GIA report is picked over a properly cut diamond with a strong ASET image. (By properly cut, I mean a diamond worthy of earning an AGSL Ideal cut grade, which a majority of the GIA EX stones being offered today would not be able to get.)

You and I have had, and probably always will have this disagreement. I think the ASET and Idealscopes are excellent tools for the live view shopper to use, especially under the klieg lights in most jewelry stores as they help reveal where the leaks are in the diamonds that they are looking at. Diamonds do look vastly different in different lighting, and these tools help reveal why some are likely not to look as good in normal lighting as they do in bright saturated lighting.

I think it is a shame that more jewelers not only do not know how to use these devices, but do not even know that they exist. It is shameful for retail jewelers to know so little about the beauty that they are vending. No wonder the cutters are getting away with the steep deep embarrassments that they are making.

Wink

 

[kenny]

HI Adom,
If you read that I suggested using reports alone to purchase, either I wrote badly, or you read badly
That is not at all what I'm suggesting.
I am saying that if you're looking at diamonds in person, the ASET and or IS are not necessary. Selecting online brings different considerations. In that case, there's a stronger argument for IS/ASET, yet there's still a lot of problems with that approach.
Mainly, what is the "best" light performance?

AS far as tools, and dealers promoting those tools in videos, or other places.
It's part of selling- not part of gemological education. There are stones that GIA grades EX that some people would refuse based on ASET/IS, yet people picking based on looking at the diamond will pick those stones that the AS/IS may ding.

In my opinion, what is the best light performance is the diamond that is selected in an overwhelming majority of cases when that diamond is put on a slotted tray with other diamonds of varying levels of cutting quality and nothing is said about the diamonds other than, "Which one do your eyes like best?"

I find it almost never happens that a steep deep GIA report is picked over a properly cut diamond with a strong ASET image. (By properly cut, I mean a diamond worthy of earning an AGSL Ideal cut grade, which a majority of the GIA EX stones being offered today would not be able to get.)

You and I have had, and probably always will have this disagreement. I think the ASET and Idealscopes are excellent tools for the live view shopper to use, especially under the klieg lights in most jewelry stores as they help reveal where the leaks are in the diamonds that they are looking at. Diamonds do look vastly different in different lighting, and these tools help reveal why some are likely not to look as good in normal lighting as they do in bright saturated lighting.

I think it is a shame that more jewelers not only do not know how to use these devices, but do not even know that they exist. It is shameful for retail jewelers to know so little about the beauty that they are vending. No wonder the cutters are getting away with the steep deep embarrassments that they are making.

Wink

adom, please listen to Wink.

 

[adom]

Ok, so it sounds like I should put IS and ASET back on the table.

For in person (not the online options) how do I start the process? I am guessing I will run into more GIA than AGL. I am eliminating EGL and non-cert as I do not have the skills. I would assume that I would start by asking to be shown only GIA excellent or AGL ideal cut stones. Do I have that part right? From there, remove any non-eyeclean or any with a not-acceptable color (I am anticipating my lowest color to be H). Then examine the stones with IS/ASET for leakage? Then check the remaining through the loupe and check the plots? And then from there, go for what I like? Is there a role for HCA or the cut class tool?

 

[WinkHPD]

Ok, so it sounds like I should put IS and ASET back on the table.

For in person (not the online options) how do I start the process? I am guessing I will run into more GIA than AGL. I am eliminating EGL and non-cert as I do not have the skills. I would assume that I would start by asking to be shown only GIA excellent or AGL ideal cut stones. Do I have that part right? From there, remove any non-eyeclean or any with a not-acceptable color (I am anticipating my lowest color to be H). Then examine the stones with IS/ASET for leakage? Then check the remaining through the loupe and check the plots? And then from there, go for what I like? Is there a role for HCA or the cut class tool?

Ask for AGSL most people do not bother with the L, but AGL is very likely to confuse people.

You may well find that with properly cut diamonds that your acceptable color may easily go to an I. It is shocking how much whiter properly cut diamonds look from the top.

My advice is to ask to look at at least two diamonds at a time, preferably three and let your eyes do the picking. Then you can find out the color and clarity after listening to your eyes. If you are picking from at least two diamonds then you will already know which your eyes like better. If at least one of them is worthy of an AGSL Ideal cut grade, chances are you are going to be golden. If they are all GIA EX steep deeps then you are still not seeing what you need to see, although without seeing a diamond worthy of an AGS Ideal you may not realize how much more beautiful the diamond could be. They will most likely still be pretty, but you deserve to see SPECIAL!

Wink

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI Adom,
By all means, use whatever you feel comfortable doing in selection.
I have nothing but respect for Wink.
That we feel differently does not change that.
His post started with the words "In my opinion"
That's the key here.
There are knowledgeable people in the field that have different opinions.
I have shown 60/60 stones that would not earn AGS Ideal cut grade being selected by real life consumers many times over AGSL 0 Cut graded diamonds. Or stones that had an ASET image that would get knocked here on PS being selected verus others with "good" aset images- and the selection was based on looking at actual diamonds. We don't have "jewelry store lighting" in my office- just normal lights, like you'd have in any office.
When looking at stones using ASET IS, and your eyes, it may ( or may not) be enlightening. The tools are not intuitive to use- unless one buys into the sales pitch about what the ASET/IS are supposed to look like.

While Wink mentioned "Steep Deep"- he did not mention "spready stones" which can look larger than some "ideal cut" stones of the same weight.
This increased spread can often be a deciding factor to buyers. Especially if they view the differences in sparkle and life as subtle, and opinion based- as opposed to night and day differences.

But since you'll be looking in real life, you can see these things for yourself. Please report back!!