Old fashioned and proud of it!

[musey]

For me, I''ve always preferred/desired to:

- Be married when I have children

- Have a husband that is okay with being the breadwinner if need be, even though I don''t want/expect him to actually carry that burden under any normal circumstances (including just plain having kids under the "normal circumstances" umbrella)

- Call superiors/elders by Mr./Ms. ________ until instructed otherwise


I''m sure there are lots of other things that I value that I don''t even think about. I don''t think any of this is necessarily the best way to live across the board, it''s just what I''ve felt was important for me

 

[Burk]

Oh I love this thread!!

Another teacher here who cannot stand students with NO manners! Please, thank-you and excuse me are not that difficult to use. On that note, if I hold the door open for you (because I have manners) is it that hard to say "thank you"

Please tell me how you can NOT hold the door open for a woman with a stroller?

oh, and amen Holly and Tgal regarding kids in bed.

 

[OUpearlgirl]

Date: 4/23/2009 7:55:10 PM
Author: HollyS

Date: 4/23/2009 7:46:34 PM

Author: OUpeargirl

Some of my friends are surprised I am so old fashioned... I''m 22 and glad that my mother instilled these things in me. Now, some of these are things I do, but I don''t judge someone who thinks differently. Other things I find QUITE rude.


No phones at dinner.

No honking on dates.

Give up seats for elderly.. Not just on the bus. When it''s Christmas day, let Grandma sit in the nice chair.

Wait for the elder of two women to extend her hand when shaking.

Proper table etiquette.

No jeans to the following places: church, musical/play, wedding, date (unless very casual), work, tea party, shower, and many more.

In church keep your shoulders covered. Spaghetti strap dresses should be worn with a shrug or cardigan. They are cute anyway!

Don''t call guys.

No living together before marriage.

Call people by their titles.

Always thank the hostess.



There are so many more. I love all of these proper PSers!

The ''baring one''s body in church'' has really gotten out of hand lately. The strapless look, halters, and the midriff peaking out of a too short top. Oh, and the excessive cleavage on display. I often wonder what the priest thinks as he administers Holy Communion.

It''s appalling to me! Why on earth do women feel the need to show off their cleavage in church? It''s a place of worship, not a singles bar. It''s not like I think everyone should be covered up in a baggie turtleneck and jumper. But there are ways to look fashionable and appropriate that a vast majority do not get.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 4/23/2009 6:25:16 PM
Author: bebe
Great thread.

I would have to say I am old fashioned and proud of it.

It is heart warming to see so many here that are as well. Maybe we aren''t all doomed just yet!

Yes!!! Ditto! Very encouraging!

I agree with almost everything that has been posted. Of course, I was raised and live in the south, so some of that just comes with the territory. I admit to being a little slack in some areas, such as we don''t always sit at the table every night now that there is only one child left at home. But my values are conservative and traditional, and I teach my kids that living together is for after marriage, marriage is a lifetime commitment, staying home with children is a privilege and worthwhile occupation for a woman (although I have frequently worked part-time, too), and faith is central to all we do and believe. I accept that others have other views and that''s totally fine.

 

[Ara Ann]

Date: 4/23/2009 8:04:35 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 4/23/2009 6:25:16 PM

Author: bebe

Great thread.


I would have to say I am old fashioned and proud of it.


It is heart warming to see so many here that are as well. Maybe we aren''t all doomed just yet!

Yes!!! Ditto! Very encouraging!


I agree with almost everything that has been posted. Of course, I was raised and live in the south, so some of that just comes with the territory. I admit to being a little slack in some areas, such as we don''t always sit at the table every night now that there is only one child left at home. But my values are conservative and traditional, and I teach my kids that living together is for after marriage, marriage is a lifetime commitment, staying home with children is a privilege and worthwhile occupation for a woman (although I have frequently worked part-time, too), and faith is central to all we do and believe. I accept that others have other views and that''s totally fine.

And I agree with you DS...well, I live in the north, LOL, but about having one child at home (things do change a bit when there''s only one at home!), being a SAHM and working part time over the years...and about faith as well!

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

Among many of the other suggestions already made, I think the value of "silence/listening" cannot be overstated. People are in such a "hurry" and no one listens anymore--always interrupting--grand sense of entitlement to being "heard", often without regard for others feelings. Basic consideration or manners I suppose--I was taught not to "interrupt" and I don''t think that was a bad thing.

cheers--Sharon

 

[Clio]

Date: 4/23/2009 5:11:35 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Speaking of the ''yeah'' thing. My friend got me thinking about it. For a LONG while, every time her daughter said ''yeah'', my friend would correct her with ''YESSS.'' And she''d parrot, ''yes.'' Honestly, I found it annoying how often my friend corrected her daughter!


Now years later, she ALWAYS says yes, please. Oh my goodness, music to my ears - and I have to say, I now really don''t like hearing kids saying, yeah, I want that!

TGal, this reminds me of a time when my mother, kids, and I were visiting with one of my colleagues. She asked my eldest if she wanted some juice, and T., who was 5 at the time, said "yeah." In unison, my mother and I corrected her: "yes, please!"

Things I am old fashioned about:

1. Eating dinner together is important to me. Yes, there are days when the kids'' activities (or mine, or my husband''s) make that difficult, but we do our level best.
2. The kids'' using proper titles for adults. We''re southern, so Miss/Mr. Firstname is acceptable, depending on the person''s relationship to my kids.
3. I really don''t believe in living together before marriage for both religious and sociological reasons.
4. I''m generally opposed to strapless wedding dresses, especially for church ceremonies. It just looks too exposed to me.
5. Yes, I know that language is an ever-changing beast, but that doesn''t give one permission to ignore all of the rules of grammar, spelling, and word usage.
5a. That means no text-speak! My sister says I am the only person she knows who texts with proper spelling and complete sentences. It honestly doesn''t take that much longer.
6. I don''t care if they''re not always used on a daily basis; I think dining rooms and living rooms are important rooms for a house. I could never buy a house that just had a family room/great room and no formal living or dining room. I also like walls in my living spaces!

I could go on...

There are also many ways in which I''m not old fashioned: I work full time, I have a tattoo, I''d much rather email than talk to someone on the phone.

 

[musey]

Date: 4/23/2009 3:11:51 PM
Author: Black Jade
I will get killed on Pricescope probably, for brining this up but a BIG way I am old-fashioned is that I don't think it works to live together before marriage.

While I think it's true that living together doesn't always work (though that depends entirely on what your definition of "work" is), neither does the alternative. It is my personal belief (and what limited research has been done in this area backs me up) that living together does not tend to make or break a marriage.

I see all the time on these forums and in other cases, young ladies who have been 'dating' men for five or six years and by 'dating' they mean living with them. And then they are trying to figure out how to get the guy to propose. Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. It just seems to me though that all the cards in his favor in this situation. He has everything already, not just sex, but housekeeping AND half the household bills paid a lot of the time--why SHOULD he change anything? While she's the one who wants the security and all the rest, and she can't get it and she's in a lose-lose situation--if she asks him about it, she's nagging, if she doesn't ask him, he doesn't think about changing the situation, because of course it's fine with him!

What I have said in the past and still believe is that I personally wouldn't want my husband to have married me because he wants the 'perks' that come with marriage. That's just me, and everyone is different, but I didn't want anything withheld during our pre-marriage relationship that would push him in to proposing sooner (or at all).

By the same token, if he as "all the cards," then what is it that she has? She is getting all the same 'perks' of marriage that he is getting.

This is not the right approach for every individual or relationship, but for me, it was absolutely the right choice.

"I see all the time on these forums and in other cases," women who followed the 'traditional' path only to have their marriage blow up in their face. Was it because they didn't live together prior to marriage? No, I'm sure it wasn't, I can't imagine why that would save someone's future marriage (though it might prevent a future marriage that would have ended in divorce). I'm just saying that there is no one right (or wrong) answer to this choice.

And then, if he IS going to propose, she feels the need to have some over the top proposal. To me, it was romantic when my boyfriend asked for my father for permission (he knew my father was going to say yes, but he thought it was respectful to ask after all my father did for me, and I did too) and then just asked a simple question. But from what I read on these forums, it's not a satisfactory proposal unless you fly to Paris and ask on the top of the Eiffel tower, or take her on a deep-sea dive or something like that. The girls are all unhappy with their proposals, not romantic enough. And the basic problem is that they already know the guy WAY too well. How is a guy going to be romantic when you clean the sink after he shaves every morning and hear him snore every night? It's all fake romance at that point, and that what's the brides are feeling. They are picking out their own rings in advance, paying for it with the shared money and then letting the guy hide the ring and 'surprise' them to be romantic. And then they're surprised that they don't feel like its real romance. Only because it's NOT.

I personally feel that the women desiring over-the-top proposals are in the minority

but that's only based upon my observance of friends, family and pricescope, so of course my pool is limited.

You are more than entitled to your own opinion, but I personally disagree with everything you've said in that paragraph. I did everything "wrong" according to what you've said:

- Knew the guy "way too well" (though I can't imagine how that could be a bad thing when going into a marriage)
- Helped choose my ring (which, for the record, I found INSANELY romantic), though the completed ring was not revealed to me until the proposal
- Okay, we didn't pay with shared money, is this what saved the romance of our proposal?


I don't feel like I missed out on ANY "real romance." The morning of my proposal I'd been living with my guy for 9 months, dating him for three years, totally involved in the ring selection etc. etc., got one of THE most low-key proposals I've ever heard of - and it was still absolutely one of the most romantic moments of my life. I still get choked up thinking back on that morning. We were over the moon for months, swimming in our own disgusting pool of romantic joy, and I can assure you that none of it was or felt "fake."

And for whatever it's worth, I haven't noticed any connection between cohabitation and desire for an over-the-top proposal. Just sayin'...

I think that people need to know themselves WELL before they embark on this journey (which hopefully they should before considering marriage anyhow, but maybe that's just me), and we knew ourselves well enough to know that this would be a fulfilling experience for us, and that we would move at our own pace regardless of living together.

I just think there was something special about being courted, with the guy feeling that you might be unattainable and were very desirable, and worth his going to some trouble for--if not actually slaying dragons. And that he couldn't get everything there was to get by the third date and then have you move in and vaccuum his floors and cook and plus go out to work, too. And that everything wasn't all stale between the two of you long long long before the wedding night. Not to speak of that half the time the girls seems really angry at all men by the time they're 21 because they've had a bunch of failed relationships that they shouldn't have been allowed to have. Because that's not true sexual freedom. Having been used by all and sundry, people you don't even know, much less care about, so that you're all jaded at an age when girls didn't even used to know what life was all about yet.

It's not that long ago that thing were very different--only a generation. And I wish that that they would change back.

Back in this generation (I think it's more like two, not one) that you're talking about, weren't most women married by 21?

Just sayin'...

Now like I've been saying, everyone is different, but since you offered so many thoughts from which to respond, I just think it's worth pointing out the opposing side. I never held anything back from my husband just for the sake of mystery and intrigue, or to push him to proposing or treating me any differently than he would otherwise just because I had something that he wanted and wasn't yet getting. I let the relationship progress in the way I felt comfortable, and it worked for us. Really worked. I suppose I should wait 25+ years to give a true "testimonial," but we're now at a stage of our relationship where the stereotypical "traditional" couple may already be bored (5+ years together) OR struggling to adapt to married life (~6 months into our marriage) - but as it is we're just thoroughly enjoying our relationship.

And most important to me, my husband didn't propose so that he could live with me, or have a housekeeper, or get action in the bedroom... he married me just because he wanted to. For me, there is nothing more romantic than that.


Oh, and for the record, absolutely nothing about our wedding night was "stale."

 

[LaraOnline]

I prefer to be married, and I think men should be more aware and respectful of the reasons why women wish to marry.

I prefer to raise my own children, which really means I need a highly co-operative relationship, where my husband is happy to embrace a working lifestyle with my active and on-going support and interest for his / our work.

I believe that being a good (or at least regular) cook and home-maker is part of my process of mothering and loving, and that my interest in my man extends to making him physically more comfortable than he otherwise would be. I guess that means I tend to do most of the laundry!

I prefer good humour and a ''can-do'' attitude rather than misdirected or undirected whining.

I believe individualism can be a good thing, and a very creative way to live, but that a family-based loyalty is the best response to the challenges of living as an adult.

After running a small business for some time, I think most people in modern society are brought up to blame others at the same time as others are expected to pick up the tab. There is an inbuilt tendency for human beings to ''lean''...based on a biological preference to conserve personal energy, no doubt!

There! Now I sound REEEEEEEALLY old -fashioned!!!

 

[vintagecushion]

Date: 4/23/2009 8:25:08 PM
Author: musey

Date: 4/23/2009 3:11:51 PM

By the same token, if he as ''all the cards,'' then what is it that she has? She is getting all the same ''perks'' of marriage that he is getting.

And most important to me, my husband didn''t propose so that he could live with me, or have a housekeeper, or get action in the bedroom... he married me just because he wanted to. For me, there is nothing more romantic than that.

I''m just going to go agree with everything Musey said, but especially second the above. The problem may not be cohabitation but the questionable health of a relationship where someone moves in with their significant other with the expectation of gaining negotiating power.

I''m not saying that the concerns expressed Black Jade are not valid ones for some couples. But the majority of these concerns don''t apply to couples who make joint decisions--to get married, to buy a ring, to move in together. The details can get sorted out just fine as long as they''re on the same page.

On a side note, I''ve been concerned about the responsibilities that comes with marriage but rest assured I am not worried about the death of romance that comes after cleaning up after a man because I have no intention of doing any such thing.

 

[IloveAsschers13]

very well said Musey. I was thinking the same thing, and I am 21 and this is after 10 months of living together and almost 5 years together... We were just discussing being engaged over dinner in fact.

Also, Black Jade I am happy you touched on the thing about earrings, piercings, tattoos etc, because I understand that not liking them has to do with being old-fashioned, but I know many old fashioned people who have them. I dress appropriately 99% of the time and I have two tattoos and 5 earrings and no one even notices them- my dad didn''t notice my tragus piercing until 6 mos. after I got it.

I''m not exactly sure what I am trying to say, but I think I am old fashioned about having good manners and things, but as I was reading, I just kept thinking of exceptions for everything- how my next door neighbors (who are 2, 5, 7) call my mom "mo-mo" and not her name, and this is not rude in any way. I do think it''s rude when children interrupt and especially don''t say things such as please and thank you.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 4/23/2009 8:10:47 PM
Author: Ara Ann

Date: 4/23/2009 8:04:35 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 4/23/2009 6:25:16 PM

Author: bebe

Great thread.


I would have to say I am old fashioned and proud of it.


It is heart warming to see so many here that are as well. Maybe we aren''t all doomed just yet!

Yes!!! Ditto! Very encouraging!


I agree with almost everything that has been posted. Of course, I was raised and live in the south, so some of that just comes with the territory. I admit to being a little slack in some areas, such as we don''t always sit at the table every night now that there is only one child left at home. But my values are conservative and traditional, and I teach my kids that living together is for after marriage, marriage is a lifetime commitment, staying home with children is a privilege and worthwhile occupation for a woman (although I have frequently worked part-time, too), and faith is central to all we do and believe. I accept that others have other views and that''s totally fine.

And I agree with you DS...well, I live in the north, LOL, but about having one child at home (things do change a bit when there''s only one at home!), being a SAHM and working part time over the years...and about faith as well!

 

[musey]

I too see great value in stay-at-home moms. I think it''s a wonderful and very respectable thing to do, if you have the means.

 

[princesss]

Date: 4/23/2009 9:05:59 PM
Author: musey
I too see great value in stay-at-home moms. I think it''s a wonderful and very respectable thing to do, if you have the means.

I absolutely agree. By an odd stroke of fate, my mom, who is a wonderful teacher and was a working mother, ended up staying home with us starting when I was 11. It was so nice having her home, and having her be able to attend our school events and help out at school. I''m sure it was frustrating for her to not be able to work, and of the three of us kids I''m the only one that remembers it both ways, but I''ve told my BF that I want that option. I want one of us to be able to stay home if we choose to, in order to give any potential children that benefit. I have a closeness with my parents that I see lacking in many (though not all) of my friends'' relationships with their parents where both parents worked (did that sentence make sense?).

So DS, and other SAHMs, my hat is off to you, and if I''m ever a mother I hope that choice is open to me.

 

[Scorpioanne]

Date: 4/23/2009 8:25:08 PM
Author: musey

Date: 4/23/2009 3:11:51 PM
Author: Black Jade
I will get killed on Pricescope probably, for brining this up but a BIG way I am old-fashioned is that I don''t think it works to live together before marriage.

While I think it''s true that living together doesn''t always work (though that depends entirely on what your definition of ''work'' is), neither does the alternative. It is my personal belief (and what limited research has been done in this area backs me up) that living together does not tend to make or break a marriage.

I see all the time on these forums and in other cases, young ladies who have been ''dating'' men for five or six years and by ''dating'' they mean living with them. And then they are trying to figure out how to get the guy to propose. Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn''t. It just seems to me though that all the cards in his favor in this situation. He has everything already, not just sex, but housekeeping AND half the household bills paid a lot of the time--why SHOULD he change anything? While she''s the one who wants the security and all the rest, and she can''t get it and she''s in a lose-lose situation--if she asks him about it, she''s nagging, if she doesn''t ask him, he doesn''t think about changing the situation, because of course it''s fine with him!

What I have said in the past and still believe is that I personally wouldn''t want my husband to have married me because he wants the ''perks'' that come with marriage. That''s just me, and everyone is different, but I didn''t want anything withheld during our pre-marriage relationship that would push him in to proposing sooner (or at all).

By the same token, if he as ''all the cards,'' then what is it that she has? She is getting all the same ''perks'' of marriage that he is getting.

This is not the right approach for every individual or relationship, but for me, it was absolutely the right choice.

''I see all the time on these forums and in other cases,'' women who followed the ''traditional'' path only to have their marriage blow up in their face. Was it because they didn''t live together prior to marriage? No, I''m sure it wasn''t, I can''t imagine why that would save someone''s future marriage (though it might prevent a future marriage that would have ended in divorce). I''m just saying that there is no one right (or wrong) answer to this choice.

And then, if he IS going to propose, she feels the need to have some over the top proposal. To me, it was romantic when my boyfriend asked for my father for permission (he knew my father was going to say yes, but he thought it was respectful to ask after all my father did for me, and I did too) and then just asked a simple question. But from what I read on these forums, it''s not a satisfactory proposal unless you fly to Paris and ask on the top of the Eiffel tower, or take her on a deep-sea dive or something like that. The girls are all unhappy with their proposals, not romantic enough. And the basic problem is that they already know the guy WAY too well. How is a guy going to be romantic when you clean the sink after he shaves every morning and hear him snore every night? It''s all fake romance at that point, and that what''s the brides are feeling. They are picking out their own rings in advance, paying for it with the shared money and then letting the guy hide the ring and ''surprise'' them to be romantic. And then they''re surprised that they don''t feel like its real romance. Only because it''s NOT.

I personally feel that the women desiring over-the-top proposals are in the minority

but that''s only based upon my observance of friends, family and pricescope, so of course my pool is limited.

You are more than entitled to your own opinion, but I personally disagree with everything you''ve said in that paragraph. I did everything ''wrong'' according to what you''ve said:

- Knew the guy ''way too well'' (though I can''t imagine how that could be a bad thing when going into a marriage)
- Helped choose my ring (which, for the record, I found INSANELY romantic), though the completed ring was not revealed to me until the proposal
- Okay, we didn''t pay with shared money, is this what saved the romance of our proposal?


I don''t feel like I missed out on ANY ''real romance.'' The morning of my proposal I''d been living with my guy for 9 months, dating him for three years, totally involved in the ring selection etc. etc., got one of THE most low-key proposals I''ve ever heard of - and it was still absolutely one of the most romantic moments of my life. I still get choked up thinking back on that morning. We were over the moon for months, swimming in our own disgusting pool of romantic joy, and I can assure you that none of it was or felt ''fake.''

And for whatever it''s worth, I haven''t noticed any connection between cohabitation and desire for an over-the-top proposal. Just sayin''...

I think that people need to know themselves WELL before they embark on this journey (which hopefully they should before considering marriage anyhow, but maybe that''s just me), and we knew ourselves well enough to know that this would be a fulfilling experience for us, and that we would move at our own pace regardless of living together.

I just think there was something special about being courted, with the guy feeling that you might be unattainable and were very desirable, and worth his going to some trouble for--if not actually slaying dragons. And that he couldn''t get everything there was to get by the third date and then have you move in and vaccuum his floors and cook and plus go out to work, too. And that everything wasn''t all stale between the two of you long long long before the wedding night. Not to speak of that half the time the girls seems really angry at all men by the time they''re 21 because they''ve had a bunch of failed relationships that they shouldn''t have been allowed to have. Because that''s not true sexual freedom. Having been used by all and sundry, people you don''t even know, much less care about, so that you''re all jaded at an age when girls didn''t even used to know what life was all about yet.

It''s not that long ago that thing were very different--only a generation. And I wish that that they would change back.

Back in this generation (I think it''s more like two, not one) that you''re talking about, weren''t most women married by 21?

Just sayin''...

Now like I''ve been saying, everyone is different, but since you offered so many thoughts from which to respond, I just think it''s worth pointing out the opposing side. I never held anything back from my husband just for the sake of mystery and intrigue, or to push him to proposing or treating me any differently than he would otherwise just because I had something that he wanted and wasn''t yet getting. I let the relationship progress in the way I felt comfortable, and it worked for us. Really worked. I suppose I should wait 25+ years to give a true ''testimonial,'' but we''re now at a stage of our relationship where the stereotypical ''traditional'' couple may already be bored (5+ years together) OR struggling to adapt to married life (~6 months into our marriage) - but as it is we''re just thoroughly enjoying our relationship.

And most important to me, my husband didn''t propose so that he could live with me, or have a housekeeper, or get action in the bedroom... he married me just because he wanted to. For me, there is nothing more romantic than that.


Oh, and for the record, absolutely nothing about our wedding night was ''stale.''

Musey, I totally agree with you including your comment just above this one.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 4/23/2009 9:53:39 PM
Author: princesss

Date: 4/23/2009 9:05:59 PM
Author: musey
I too see great value in stay-at-home moms. I think it's a wonderful and very respectable thing to do, if you have the means.

I absolutely agree. By an odd stroke of fate, my mom, who is a wonderful teacher and was a working mother, ended up staying home with us starting when I was 11. It was so nice having her home, and having her be able to attend our school events and help out at school. I'm sure it was frustrating for her to not be able to work, and of the three of us kids I'm the only one that remembers it both ways, but I've told my BF that I want that option. I want one of us to be able to stay home if we choose to, in order to give any potential children that benefit. I have a closeness with my parents that I see lacking in many (though not all) of my friends' relationships with their parents where both parents worked (did that sentence make sense?).

So DS, and other SAHMs, my hat is off to you, and if I'm ever a mother I hope that choice is open to me.

Princesss and Musey, it's good to see some of the younger girls having the desire to stay home and raise children! I am also a teacher, and I stayed home when they were little and worked part-time at other times since I am in special ed. and do not have a regular classroom. I am planning to just tutor reading a couple of afternoons in the near future from home. So I've been able to stay in touch with my work without working full-time, and that has been a blessing! Our older daughter is 23 and in a serious relationship, and she has told him that it is her desire to stay home with their future kids as well. I think the key to it is never to live off of 100% of both incomes if you can help it. So many young couples get a mortgage that requires both incomes, but many of them get houses that are much more expensive than they really need. Then they are trapped into working whether they want to or not. So my advice to anyone with that goal is to be conservative with your spending/debt so you can live on one income or one plus part-time.

 

[Clairitek]

Date: 4/23/2009 9:57:31 PM
Author: Scorpioanne

Date: 4/23/2009 8:25:08 PM

Author: musey

Date: 4/23/2009 3:11:51 PM

Author: Black Jade

I will get killed on Pricescope probably, for brining this up but a BIG way I am old-fashioned is that I don''t think it works to live together before marriage.

While I think it''s true that living together doesn''t always work (though that depends entirely on what your definition of ''work'' is), neither does the alternative. It is my personal belief (and what limited research has been done in this area backs me up) that living together does not tend to make or break a marriage.

I see all the time on these forums and in other cases, young ladies who have been ''dating'' men for five or six years and by ''dating'' they mean living with them. And then they are trying to figure out how to get the guy to propose. Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn''t. It just seems to me though that all the cards in his favor in this situation. He has everything already, not just sex, but housekeeping AND half the household bills paid a lot of the time--why SHOULD he change anything? While she''s the one who wants the security and all the rest, and she can''t get it and she''s in a lose-lose situation--if she asks him about it, she''s nagging, if she doesn''t ask him, he doesn''t think about changing the situation, because of course it''s fine with him!

What I have said in the past and still believe is that I personally wouldn''t want my husband to have married me because he wants the ''perks'' that come with marriage. That''s just me, and everyone is different, but I didn''t want anything withheld during our pre-marriage relationship that would push him in to proposing sooner (or at all).

By the same token, if he as ''all the cards,'' then what is it that she has? She is getting all the same ''perks'' of marriage that he is getting.

This is not the right approach for every individual or relationship, but for me, it was absolutely the right choice.

''I see all the time on these forums and in other cases,'' women who followed the ''traditional'' path only to have their marriage blow up in their face. Was it because they didn''t live together prior to marriage? No, I''m sure it wasn''t, I can''t imagine why that would save someone''s future marriage (though it might prevent a future marriage that would have ended in divorce). I''m just saying that there is no one right (or wrong) answer to this choice.

And then, if he IS going to propose, she feels the need to have some over the top proposal. To me, it was romantic when my boyfriend asked for my father for permission (he knew my father was going to say yes, but he thought it was respectful to ask after all my father did for me, and I did too) and then just asked a simple question. But from what I read on these forums, it''s not a satisfactory proposal unless you fly to Paris and ask on the top of the Eiffel tower, or take her on a deep-sea dive or something like that. The girls are all unhappy with their proposals, not romantic enough. And the basic problem is that they already know the guy WAY too well. How is a guy going to be romantic when you clean the sink after he shaves every morning and hear him snore every night? It''s all fake romance at that point, and that what''s the brides are feeling. They are picking out their own rings in advance, paying for it with the shared money and then letting the guy hide the ring and ''surprise'' them to be romantic. And then they''re surprised that they don''t feel like its real romance. Only because it''s NOT.

I personally feel that the women desiring over-the-top proposals are in the minority

but that''s only based upon my observance of friends, family and pricescope, so of course my pool is limited.

You are more than entitled to your own opinion, but I personally disagree with everything you''ve said in that paragraph. I did everything ''wrong'' according to what you''ve said:

- Knew the guy ''way too well'' (though I can''t imagine how that could be a bad thing when going into a marriage)

- Helped choose my ring (which, for the record, I found INSANELY romantic), though the completed ring was not revealed to me until the proposal

- Okay, we didn''t pay with shared money, is this what saved the romance of our proposal?

I don''t feel like I missed out on ANY ''real romance.'' The morning of my proposal I''d been living with my guy for 9 months, dating him for three years, totally involved in the ring selection etc. etc., got one of THE most low-key proposals I''ve ever heard of - and it was still absolutely one of the most romantic moments of my life. I still get choked up thinking back on that morning. We were over the moon for months, swimming in our own disgusting pool of romantic joy, and I can assure you that none of it was or felt ''fake.''

And for whatever it''s worth, I haven''t noticed any connection between cohabitation and desire for an over-the-top proposal. Just sayin''...

I think that people need to know themselves WELL before they embark on this journey (which hopefully they should before considering marriage anyhow, but maybe that''s just me), and we knew ourselves well enough to know that this would be a fulfilling experience for us, and that we would move at our own pace regardless of living together.

I just think there was something special about being courted, with the guy feeling that you might be unattainable and were very desirable, and worth his going to some trouble for--if not actually slaying dragons. And that he couldn''t get everything there was to get by the third date and then have you move in and vaccuum his floors and cook and plus go out to work, too. And that everything wasn''t all stale between the two of you long long long before the wedding night. Not to speak of that half the time the girls seems really angry at all men by the time they''re 21 because they''ve had a bunch of failed relationships that they shouldn''t have been allowed to have. Because that''s not true sexual freedom. Having been used by all and sundry, people you don''t even know, much less care about, so that you''re all jaded at an age when girls didn''t even used to know what life was all about yet.

It''s not that long ago that thing were very different--only a generation. And I wish that that they would change back.

Back in this generation (I think it''s more like two, not one) that you''re talking about, weren''t most women married by 21?

Just sayin''...

Now like I''ve been saying, everyone is different, but since you offered so many thoughts from which to respond, I just think it''s worth pointing out the opposing side. I never held anything back from my husband just for the sake of mystery and intrigue, or to push him to proposing or treating me any differently than he would otherwise just because I had something that he wanted and wasn''t yet getting. I let the relationship progress in the way I felt comfortable, and it worked for us. Really worked. I suppose I should wait 25+ years to give a true ''testimonial,'' but we''re now at a stage of our relationship where the stereotypical ''traditional'' couple may already be bored (5+ years together) OR struggling to adapt to married life (~6 months into our marriage) - but as it is we''re just thoroughly enjoying our relationship.

And most important to me, my husband didn''t propose so that he could live with me, or have a housekeeper, or get action in the bedroom... he married me just because he wanted to. For me, there is nothing more romantic than that.

Oh, and for the record, absolutely nothing about our wedding night was ''stale.''

Musey, I totally agree with you including your comment just above this one.

I also agree with everything Musey said. We lived together for about 6 months before getting engaged and will have lived together for just over a year when we get married in June. I personally think that we have greatly benefited from cohabitation and I am proud of the obstacles we had to overcome to get here. I would even venture to say that buying the house together (which was incredibly stressful) and getting over the growing pains of living together successfully convinced me (and I''m sure our parents as well) even more that we''re a great match.

Back to the topic at hand...
I don''t think that I am terribly old fashioned though oddly, even though I am not a regular church goer, it seems reallllly strange to me that people wear jeans and tee shirts to church. FI and I have been going a lot more recently and we always dress up. He doesn''t even wear khakis!

 

[Octavia]

Musey, well-said (as always).

I agree with some things that have already been said, but my strongest "old-fashioned" feelings are that:

*Regarding housing, I don''t agree with "bigger is better." If necessary, my future children can share a room, and we can do without a dedicated playroom and media room and finished basement, etc. (none of which I had growing up). Some modern conveniences are nice, but I think that homes from 50 years ago are, for the most part, perfectly adequate with a bit of updating. I just prefer a home with a smaller footprint that is more affordable and consumes fewer resources.

*Similarly, we have too much junk nowadays. We don''t need 90% of it, and I hate that everything is made to be disposed of pretty quickly.

*I believe in freshly prepared food whenever possible, and I really dislike using most prepared or packaged foods. Of course, I do cheat sometimes and use store-bought chicken broth in my soups (although I like making it so much better, but I can''t seem to make enough) and I don''t ALWAYS make fresh pasta...but there''s a certain pleasure to being in the kitchen that''s even more important than the health benefits, I think.

*I believe in taking responsibility for things you''ve done, both good and bad, and not pawning it off on others. And, conversely, giving credit where it''s due. I think this has been on a decline for quite some time, and I notice it daily. I think it ties into a lack of respect for one another and for community, which I also notice a lot and it really perturbs me.

*Reasonable table etiquette is a must. It doesn''t have to be 100% perfect, but chewing with one''s mouth open, talking before swallowing, reaching across others instead of asking them to pass whatever you want, and leaving the table before everyone is finished without permission are no-nos.

I''m thoroughly modern in many ways, but it still kills me that being respectful, responsible, and generally caring toward ourselves and others is seen as "old fashioned" by a lot of people. I find it''s much, much more apparent now that I live in the city than it was when I lived in a rural area, though, so I wonder how much that plays into it.

 

[meresal]

Very well said Musey. Thanks!

Yes, I'm probably in the minority, but... my FI (boyfriend at the time) moved in with me, when I relocated to another city. He does dishes, laundry, and pays half of MY bills... and I'M loving all these perks you speak of

.

 

[trillionaire]

I don''t believe in casual sex, one night stands, hooking up, friends with benefits or any of that nonsense.

I don''t take social calls after 10pm, unless you are a super close friend or family member. Anyone else needs to know that there are boundaries, and they need to respect them. I am NOT 7-11!!!

I believe that marriage is sacred, and not to be impinged upon. (I also believe in marriage equality)

 

[AdiS]

Date: 4/24/2009 3:50:04 AM
Author: trillionaire
I don''t believe in casual sex, one night stands, hooking up, friends with benefits or any of that nonsense.

I don''t take social calls after 10pm, unless you are a super close friend or family member. Anyone else needs to know that there are boundaries, and they need to respect them. I am NOT 7-11!!!

I believe that marriage is sacred, and not to be impinged upon. (I also believe in marriage equality)

Ditto, ditto and ditto! I could''ve written exactly the same things!

I also like it when a man opens the door for me and makes me feel like a lady and I hate it when little kids are being rude/insolent/ill mannered (but I don''t mind it at all if they have an opinion on a conversation among grown-ups and want share it).

Other than that, I don''t consider myself old fashioned. I have three tattoos, 5 piercings on my ears and belly button, I don''t want DH to pay for everything when we go out, I really don''t think respecting someone has anything to do with their age, I''ve lived with my hubby before the engagement/wedding and I think this was really helpful for our relationship (which is anything but "stale", btw

) I still call my parents by nicknames instead of "mom" and "dad" and I used Mr/Mrs as a form of address to older people only when I was in school. I was raised to be polite but outspoken and direct and I will raise my kids in exactly the same manner - parents are your friends that ought to be loved, not feared. You have to be civil but never servile. Basic values are to be respected but never let someone else''s rules determine your life.

 

[Kelli]

I think people with manners are real treasures, but I think it''s highly unfortunate that we have to consider manners "old fashioned". That shouldn''t be an out-of-date thing. I wish I''d see more of it in men AND women!

My fiancee''s father did an amazing job teaching him to be thoughtful and considerate of others. He still opens car doors (and all doors) not just for me but for ANYONE getting into his car, and calls my other friends'' boyfriends out on not doing the same.

He''d never dream of sitting comfortably while watching someone else stand and look for a seat. I really love him for that, among other things.

My real reason for posting though, was to thank musey and those after her for speaking up for living together before marriage. That is one thing I am THANKFUL to consider old-fashoned. One generation ago, lots of people were getting married fresh out of high school, only because that''s the only way their parents would approve of them living together. I''m sorry, but I do have to feel that maybe that''s why there were so many divorces and unhappy marriages in which people "stayed together for the kids". And of course I''m not saying that none of them are happy, certainly that did work for some people. But for me---- NO WAY!! I might have married my stupid high school boyfriend if that''s the way I lived. And my life would be full of drama to this day.

My current fiance is the only guy I''ve ever lived with--- the only guy I''ve ever slept with (THERE--- that''s how I''m old-fashioned!), and we were together for eight years before deciding to get married. Not because I couldn''t get him to commit, but because we wanted to wait until we could AFFORD all the things that come along with marriage. I didn''t have to question whether or not he was in it for the long haul, and I also didn''t have to play silly "not til marriage" games to get him to propose to me. How would that be satisfying for the woman anyway?!?! How can you think that men are the only ones who benefit from living together? I enjoyed our "shacked up" time just as much as he did, and I still am.

Also, we''re still VERY much in love, and tell each other several times a day. And we''re both super-confident that our marriage will work, because we KNOW we share the same ideals and we''ve already made it work for nine years now. And I think that it''ll be a very romantic day when we get married on our ten year anniversary.

I find it really judgemental and weird when people pity "the poor girl with no ring on her finger." Why should marrying the girl be compared to buying the cow anyway? Ummmm..... that''s not how every relationship works.

 

[zoebartlett]

Clio, I agree with your opinion of text speak. I also write out everything, whether it''s in an e-mail, on PS, or when texting.

 

[luv2sparkle]

I love this thread! It is nice to see that there are so many people who hold values they feel strongly about. I didn''t think that was true anymore. I loved and agreed
with most, but here are two I really liked:

I think kids should have a healthy fear of their parents: I agree. I have 4 boys and one daughter. My husband is a fire fighter and is gone alot. I knew some day
these boys were going to be bigger and stronger than me. We never ever abused our children, that is not the kind of fear that I want. But even now, I just
have to give my boys a look, and it stops them in their tracks. Its so funny. I am trying to teach my daughter the technique for when she has boys. I have one
son, that if he use to say something that sounded a tad disrespectful I would just have to say, "what did you say?" and take a step forward, he would apologize
and start backing out to the space. What a crack-up. Its all bluster.

The second one: women who show all their who-ha''s. Living in CA we see this alot, and yes even in church. I find the older I get, I just want to say: "why did you
even bother wearing a top?" . Of course I never do, but I think it. I was in costco one day, and there was this woman, with two small chidren, and truly the only
thing that was covered was her nips. No lie. She was clearly on the prowl. There was an old man with his wife behind her totally chatting it up. He was clearly
enjoying it. His wife did not look happy! I would like to see a little more modesty. But it is nowhere. Sometime the things they show on tv is amazing as well.
Now a movie that used to be rated R, is PG-13. I am not sending any 13 year-old I know to those movies.

I love reading all your thoughts!

 

[Steel]

I like this thread TGal. It is nice to know others prefer good old values.

I must say though that I would encourage my daughter to wait to move in with a man until engagement has been realised. It is not true in all relationships but a number of men enjoy free milk,

and never plan to buy the cow.

Mostly I would love a return to the sentiment of - taking a village to raise a child. I would like that I could stop a stranger (adult or child) who litters and admonish them without fear of stabbing. I would like to stop a toddler from ripping pages from books in the library without fear of an assault charge/dirty look from the parent. I would like to share cakes with the neighbourhood without fear of a lawsuit because little Jimmy ate some of the paper wrapper. I would like to put something down in a shop and pick it up 2 mins later without it having been stolen. All of these social niceties usually come from the grandparents down, but often children are raised in isolation and the parents either do not care to instil such manners and etiquette or are unaware of it themselves.

 

[iwannaprettyone]

Elbows off the table
Avoid profanity
say pardon me or excuse me- not HUH? or What?



I''m in Texas, so Ma''am and Sir
Opening doors
A man helping you in and out of trucks, over fences etc etc etc
Wave at everyone you drive pass (it''s a small town thing)
Don''t use the lords name in vain
Pull out chairs


My biggest thing is a man must walk behind a woman, rather than a woman chasing liked a subservient.

 

[Porridge]

Date: 4/26/2009 12:48:09 PM
Author: Steel
I like this thread TGal. It is nice to know others prefer good old values.


I must say though that I would encourage my daughter to wait to move in with a man until engagement has been realised. It is not true in all relationships but a number of men enjoy free milk,

and never plan to buy the cow.


Mostly I would love a return to the sentiment of - taking a village to raise a child. I would like that I could stop a stranger (adult or child) who litters and admonish them without fear of stabbing. I would like to stop a toddler from ripping pages from books in the library without fear of an assault charge/dirty look from the parent. I would like to share cakes with the neighbourhood without fear of a lawsuit because little Jimmy ate some of the paper wrapper. I would like to put something down in a shop and pick it up 2 mins later without it having been stolen. All of these social niceties usually come from the grandparents down, but often children are raised in isolation and the parents either do not care to instil such manners and etiquette or are unaware of it themselves.

Huge ditto.

 

[fuzzypill]

My old fashioned things:

1. Before a guy is going to propose, I feel that he should approach the girl''s family about it first.
I don''t really like the term "asking for permission" but I guess that''s sort of what it is. It gives the family a chance to speak up about any concerns they may have. I don''t know how many younger guys do this nowadays.

2. I still believe in writing old fashioned "thank you" letters/notes/cards - not just emails! I''m appalled how many weddings I''ve attended recently where we never received a physical thank you card!

 

[bee*]

Date: 4/26/2009 1:54:48 PM
Author: Porridge

Date: 4/26/2009 12:48:09 PM

Author: Steel

I like this thread TGal. It is nice to know others prefer good old values.



I must say though that I would encourage my daughter to wait to move in with a man until engagement has been realised. It is not true in all relationships but a number of men enjoy free milk,

and never plan to buy the cow.



Mostly I would love a return to the sentiment of - taking a village to raise a child. I would like that I could stop a stranger (adult or child) who litters and admonish them without fear of stabbing. I would like to stop a toddler from ripping pages from books in the library without fear of an assault charge/dirty look from the parent. I would like to share cakes with the neighbourhood without fear of a lawsuit because little Jimmy ate some of the paper wrapper. I would like to put something down in a shop and pick it up 2 mins later without it having been stolen. All of these social niceties usually come from the grandparents down, but often children are raised in isolation and the parents either do not care to instil such manners and etiquette or are unaware of it themselves.

Huge ditto.

Thritto. It drives me mad that you can''t say anything without fear of being attacked/screamed at.

 

[Haven]

Kelli--I agree that it's sad to consider well-mannered people old-fashioned. I think I look at this differently: I consider ill-mannered people rude, and the rest of us are just plain civilized.

It's very interesting to me to read people's reactions to questions of tradition, etiquette, or manners on this board because there seems to be a pervasive belief that these things are outdated or sexist or just plain silly in today's day and age. (I see this a lot in the LIW and BWW threads.) HOWEVER, then I read loads and loads of "vent" threads complaining about the various ways our members have been wronged by others. It really does boggle the mind.

Anyway . . .
As for me, I believe in etiquette and manners, and I do my very best to live gracefully.
Specifically, these are my sticking points:
- Address relative strangers using their title and last name. It makes me so uncomfortable at work when people call me by my first name even though they don't know me at all, AND I never gave them permission to do so.
- Thank you notes should be handwritten. If you cannot be bothered to write a note for a gift, then you don't deserve it at all. Pre-printed thank you notes are incredibly rude, in my opinion.
- Greet people when you walk past them, especially if you work with them.
- Being behind the wheel of a car is not a free pass to behave like an animal. All the rules of civilized interaction still apply. Tailgating, yelling, cutting off, and other dangerous behaviors are absolutely unacceptable. You are operating a vehicle, take your responsibility seriously and respect my right to drive without fear of being killed on the road.
- Pointing out another's bad manners is the height of rudeness. The HEIGHT of rudeness.

I've made personal choices that may seem old-fashioned, such as refusing to live with anyone before marriage, but those choices were all made because they worked for me. I also hope to stay at home when DH and I have kids, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.