Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advice

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

my opinion is no recut, put it in a pendant where obstruction is less of an issue and put another stone in the setting while re-tipping the prongs.

HA! No, I am not interested in the stone for a pendant. Thanks for you opinion! I will likely return it if that is the way it goes!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Interesting specimen DD. I love that setting!! Too bad it's not 9.5mm because if you unset and sold the setting I might be super tempted to abandon a solitaire route for my monster OEC.

What's the color grading? It looks fairly warm in some of the angles, especially along the edges where I tend to see color the most. What do you think of the overall stone? If it is a warmer stone and needs some rehab, was it such an amazing deal you wouldn't keep looking? For some reason I always thought you preferred the lower end of the near colorless range.

The first images look fantastic, it looks very traditional OEC with patterning. But wow that nailhead! Even in the farthest away hand shot, it's very dark. Most traditional OEC's I have seen in person have SOME head obstruction, which seems to make taking pics of the beauties super hard because the middle facets just black out, and it's hard to say 'well that doesn't really happen in real life' but I've never had a stone where it blacks out quite so far away as that pic on your hand.

My own experience with having Brian look at a stone recut, it was unmounted and he had me get a Sarin to show each of the angles to see if it was a candidate for a recut. If the stone is set, not sure that he can tell enough to say truly yay or nay. Could you unset the stone, and then be prepared to reset it (at your own expense, fixing prongs etc to make it back the way it was) if you decide to return it? It may cost $100-150ish depending on your local setter/jeweler but I would think it'd be the best way to determine if the stone is a good candidate or not.

Well you all can contact the seller and offer on the setting if I return it I will share the name. Some lurker would probably snap this stone up anyways for what I paid.

I think its about O-P color. Yeah in a fantasy worl I like less tinted stones. My 7mm is an I color and that's about perfect for me. But you KNOW how rare those are in the 8mm+ sizes and you KNOW how much those cost, right? This was a nice looking stone at a decent price point and I thought: Good opporunity to see if I like so much warmth in an old cut (I do like it, but the cut issues make it hard to really knwo what I think) and to see if such a large solitaire was something I want to purse (not sure). Anyways, a fun experiment, but not sure I am keeping the stone. Pretty sure I will return it. If it was about $2k less in price I would rehab it, but it was not such a great deal that its worth the effort I think.

The prongs are really badly done, I am pretty sure they would crack/break if I tried to unset the stone. One option would be to have the seller unset the stone and "resell" me the stone loose and at a lower price because of the cut issues; buy it with the return period and have it looked at. If the seller is not amenable to that, then its a no go. I think its a no go anyways. Pity.

 

[TravelingGal]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

A) looks really warm. If you like warm now, fine, but definitely warm.
B) from your edumacation pictures, I'd say no. Just to double check what kinds of things you are talking about, I took my ring in direct sunlight and obstructed (with camera lens and my head)...is that how you got those photos? If so, none of my three stones do it. All are bright in the center with contrasting patterns.

You've seen enough of these things to know in your gut, I assume. What you're seeing in the other photos would bother me, because I guess I'm a PSer to some extent where I want my stone to look good in ALL lighting conditions. Those type of old cuts obviously exist, so if 20% cut is required to get rid of that darkness, ditch the thing.

Plus...did I say it's really warm? I mean, you don't like warm! Or do you?

Don't settle...a deal is not a deal, etc etc etc.

 

[TravelingGal]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

PS, this was very educational, thanks. We should have an old cut obstruction photo thread so we can compare all kinds of stones!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

I posted mostly for education and just the fun of the discussion I do have enough familiarity with old cuts to make up my mind on my own of course.

And yes, TGal, that is the type of cut I want: Looks good in most (all?) lighting. My 7mm stone is very close.

But this was a worthwhile "experiment". If nothing else it was sure good entertainment to see such a huge and lovely stone. The photos are really showing it in its worst, purposefully. In some lighting environments it does not obstruct at all.

 

[Laila619]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Like you say, there are always other diamonds. I'd probably pass unfortunately.

 

[TravelingGal]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

I posted mostly for education and just the fun of the discussion I do have enough familiarity with old cuts to make up my mind on my own of course.

And yes, TGal, that is the type of cut I want: Looks good in most (all?) lighting. My 7mm stone is very close.

But this was a worthwhile "experiment". If nothing else it was sure good entertainment to see such a huge and lovely stone. The photos are really showing it in its worst, purposefully. In some lighting environments it does not obstruct at all.

Well, speaking of experiment, what do you think of the warmth? Would you go warm, or still prefer whiter stones?

I tried on Mara's and boy, that thing is lovely. But I was so sad to see it looked FAR better on her skin tone than mine. On hers, it glowed. On mine, not so much.

ETA, I see you kind of answered that, but I guess my question was on your ideal stone, do you now think you could go lower in color than an I. My J (which has fluor, so I guess it's facing up whiter) is the range I think I like (so probably H-K is where I'd be...I like some warmth in old cuts).

 

[E B]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Like you say, there are always other diamonds. I'd probably pass unfortunately.

Agreed. That obstruction would drive me nuts.

Would this be in place of your three stone? If so, an emphatic no. If in addition to, and you aren't bothered by the obstruction, maybe. Big and warm is everything you've said you wouldn't want (ideally) so would this stone get worn much for the $ spent?

 

[Mara]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Having an estimated GIA M (EGL K per paperwork) in a large size, I don't think I'd want to go warmer than this, for my own personal tastes. But funny, my stone can appear ivory in some lighting and a blue white in others, my car is my FAVORITE place to peruse it (bad for driving actually). It is hard to find the large stones, well-cut AND lower on the color grade, without forking over first and second born. These stones are such chameleons.

But ... and I know this is easier said than done while you are in the hunt, but there is always another stone. I learned this after many people telling it to me while looking for my original 2c (eventually 1.5c vintage ring), I sent a few things back at my own expense, and if something just doesn't seem right for the price or your situation, then another stone will come along and when you have IT, you will be glad you waited. I know you know this, anyway but sometimes it helps to have just one more person say it lol.

I compared two stones hand in hand for a few days while making my decision and while the other one was a beauty in sooo many ways, it def had that traditional head obstruction whereas the one I chose did not, this stone performs so well in 95% of the lighting situations, which I felt amazingly lucky to find, along with price point, color range, clarity, etc. While I know that head obstruction is fine for certain things (like great for pendants!)... for a daily wear ring it's not what I wanted.

But gah that setting. A CS would be amazing in it.. hmmm. I do have an 8mm Lindi spess.

 

[Rhino]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Hi Dreamer,

Yep ... dark center. Common to see in OEC's. I just had an 8mm+ OEC in my hands with the same issue. Karl is on the right course and the dark centers are usually caused by pavilion angles that are too shallow but it also may be a nail head.

If the pavilion angles are too shallow you'll lose too much weight in the recut. That was the case with the diamond I had my hands on as I was going to recut it too but it would have fell below that magic # of 3.00ct so I didn't purchase it to recut. If however it's a nail head and the pavilion angles are too steep you'd stand a better chance for the recut. The only way to know for sure would be to have a detailed Sarin ran on the diamond.

To most OEC people I would imagine the advice would be NOT to touch it. I am one who jives with your thinking as that would bother me personally. If I'm going to spend that kind of $$$ on a rock I want the best light play possible and expecially under the table facet.

Good luck whatever you do D.

PS: Your pictures (while EXCELLENT) are a great illustration of why I don't typically like photoraphy only taken at those angles. Of course it is good to show for those angles but what you see when you look into the face of the diamond *to me* is way more important.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

EB Not in place of! If I sold my three stone it would be for something much more spectacular. But its too much money to "settle" for something that is not quite right. If the cut was superbe then the color would be fine. If the color was better a recut would be more desirable. As it stands... not quite right.

TGal I don't mind warmth in old cuts as much a MRBs. I think my ideal would be GIA J-K. Which I have in my three stone. It is very white! But for a really well cut stone with my ideal style I would be ok with warmer as long as I had whiter diamonds as well I think.

I will say big huge diamonds are fun! Practical? No. But fun!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Hi Dreamer,

Yep ... dark center. Common to see in OEC's. I just had an 8mm+ OEC in my hands with the same issue. Karl is on the right course and the dark centers are usually caused by pavilion angles that are too shallow but it also may be a nail head.

If the pavilion angles are too shallow you'll lose too much weight in the recut. That was the case with the diamond I had my hands on as I was going to recut it too but it would have fell below that magic # of 3.00ct so I didn't purchase it to recut. If however it's a nail head and the pavilion angles are too steep you'd stand a better chance for the recut. The only way to know for sure would be to have a detailed Sarin ran on the diamond.

To most OEC people I would imagine the advice would be NOT to touch it. I am one who jives with your thinking as that would bother me personally. If I'm going to spend that kind of $$$ on a rock I want the best light play possible and expecially under the table facet.

Good luck whatever you do D.

PS: Your pictures (while EXCELLENT) are a great illustration of why I don't typically like photoraphy only taken at those angles. Of course it is good to show for those angles but what you see when you look into the face of the diamond *to me* is way more important.

Thanks Jon I was hoping you would chime in. I can see the culet through the mount, so I would be SHOCKED if the stone is too shallow given my estimate of the depth and what I can see. I am thinking nail head. I am uncertain at this point if it is worth talking to the seller and asking about having the stone unmounted, or just leaving it be. Either way the seller would need to agree to a significant reduction in price for me to keep it and doubt that would happen.

Re the bolded -- this is why I ALWAYS request a photo looking directly into the face of the diamond to check for obstruction. Well... not always Depends on the price. In this case, there was some evidence in the photos the seller provided that obstruction could be an issue. I specifically asked the seller about it and was assured it was not a problem. In hindsight I should have insisted on another photograph before purchase. You simply cannot trust the opinion of ebay seller FULL STOP. This is a point I cannot emphasize enough for other buyers. I took a risk but did should have trusted my gut because I suspected this issue. Still, glad I looked at it in person.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Having an estimated GIA M (EGL K per paperwork) in a large size, I don't think I'd want to go warmer than this, for my own personal tastes. But funny, my stone can appear ivory in some lighting and a blue white in others, my car is my FAVORITE place to peruse it (bad for driving actually). It is hard to find the large stones, well-cut AND lower on the color grade, without forking over first and second born. These stones are such chameleons.

But ... and I know this is easier said than done while you are in the hunt, but there is always another stone. I learned this after many people telling it to me while looking for my original 2c (eventually 1.5c vintage ring), I sent a few things back at my own expense, and if something just doesn't seem right for the price or your situation, then another stone will come along and when you have IT, you will be glad you waited. I know you know this, anyway but sometimes it helps to have just one more person say it lol.

I compared two stones hand in hand for a few days while making my decision and while the other one was a beauty in sooo many ways, it def had that traditional head obstruction whereas the one I chose did not, this stone performs so well in 95% of the lighting situations, which I felt amazingly lucky to find, along with price point, color range, clarity, etc. While I know that head obstruction is fine for certain things (like great for pendants!)... for a daily wear ring it's not what I wanted.

But gah that setting. A CS would be amazing in it.. hmmm. I do have an 8mm Lindi spess.

Yes i agree with everything you say here about other diamonds around the corner. It is hard not to feel like "I will never find another one!!" But in reality there are many potential diamonds. Not 8mm+ on ebay though... anyways, I am not in some burning rush on this. If the right thing comes along, great. If not... oh well.

 

[Rhino]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Thanks Jon I was hoping you would chime in. I can see the culet through the mount, so I would be SHOCKED if the stone is too shallow given my estimate of the depth and what I can see. I am thinking nail head.

It does resemble a nail head in the pix but I hate to make cut judgements solely on pix.

I am uncertain at this point if it is worth talking to the seller and asking about having the stone unmounted, or just leaving it be. Either way the seller would need to agree to a significant reduction in price for me to keep it and doubt that would happen.

If its a steal it may be worth it even if you do lose the weight. If its tetering on a "magic number" regarding the weight it may not be worth the risk. If I had it loose I can tell you a WHOLE lote more of course.

Re the bolded -- this is why I ALWAYS request a photo looking directly into the face of the diamond to check for obstruction. Well... not always Depends on the price. In this case, there was some evidence in the photos the seller provided that obstruction could be an issue. I specifically asked the seller about it and was assured it was not a problem. In hindsight I should have insisted on another photograph before purchase. You simply cannot trust the opinion of ebay seller FULL STOP. This is a point I cannot emphasize enough for other buyers. I took a risk but did should have trusted my gut because I suspected this issue. Still, glad I looked at it in person.

Amen to that and also why its important to have a somewhat flexible return period. You have my personal email so if you ever want my opinion or want to toss any ideas this way I'm always happy to share my .02c.

All the best,
Jon

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

I decided to return this ring I think that the diamond is very beautiful and the setting just as lovely. But it is not for me. If anyone wants to buy it, post here to let me know and I can share the seller's information. I don't want to just post it randomly because I would rather a PSer gets it and not a lurker, so if you want it, post here and we can figure out a way for me to get you the seller's name! The seller is very good and trustworthy, I returned the ring and got a refund the same day!

FYI I paid a little over $7k for the diamond which is 8.00mm in spread and a lovely cushiony shape. Despite the "maltese cross" in the center it is a gorgeous stone. The photos I posted show it at its worst. The prongs need reworking, which is something I did not know when I bought it. The ring is on consignment, but if anyone else goes for it I would consider offering more like $6500 and see what happens.

Anyways, onwards and upwards as they say!

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

I think you made the right choice. I know there is another one waiting for you out there that's a better fit. Did you get any extra setting shots from that ring? And can you post them? I might want to repro this one, it was that lovely.

 

[Andelain]

Re: Old European Cut: Obstruction and recut information/advi

Someone here had Singlestone touch up a stone like this and the results were great.