Old Certs or "Used" Diamonds

[denverappraiser]

Date: 2/9/2005 7:28:29 AM
Author: valeria101
Speaking of getting new reports... how can a private seller do this ?

If the lab report is so darn important for purchases from established jewelers... it could only be times more so for private transactions. GIA doesn''t take orders. Anyone else ?

Ana,

GIA will accept orders from private sellers. So will EGL-USA, IGI, and Gemscan. AGS is the only major lab that won''t work directly with the consumers and it''s not very difficult to find a jeweler or appraiser who will work as an intermediary for you. They all have information on their respective websites about how to submit a job.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[valeria101]

Date: 2/9/2005 11:12:15 AM
Author: denverappraiser

GIA will accept orders from private sellers.

Thanks. I was a bit puzzled by this announcement on GIA.org:

" Consumers may send their diamonds, colored stones, or pearls to the GIA Gem Trade Laboratory for grading, identification, and inscription services through local retailers of fine jewelry."

 

[denverappraiser]

Ana,

You''re right, that''s a confusing statement. The advice is correct but it''s just that, advice. You are not limited to this approach.

Neil

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/9/2005 2

1

9 PM
Author: crankydave

Attacking anyone freely sharing opinions and knowledge serves to do nothing but drive them away and hurts everyone.

Dave

If you practiced what you preached you would be a better person.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/9/2005 9:53:30 AM
Author: valeria101

Seriously. I am quite amazed private sales never quite took off on this forum. And even more amazed at the ''secondary market'' discounts. Certification should have done away with them, if it was really the ultimate valuation authority. It was meant to do just that (make diamonds into an investment product blah...blah). Is there some generally accepted explanation why it didn''t ?

Exellent question Val :}

Dunno why a private sale forum didnt take off here.

My opinion on the second part:
The secondary market reacts to the prices set by the first sale marketers on buying secondary market goods.
If the local first sale dealer is only willing to pay 50% of wholesale max then all someone has to do is offer 51% and they will get the goods most of the time.
The person selling wont be happy but will feel better about it than getting 50%.
There has in my opinion been a ton of marketing and trade practices to keep the secondary market down.
A healthy secondary market would destroy the rarity myth that the diamond industry has traditionaly been built on.

 

[denverappraiser]

Most dealers won’t buy from the public because of a widespread public misunderstanding about the pricing structure. If a customer comes in to sell a stone and the dealer offers less than was expected, the customer walks away thinking that the dealer is trying to cheat them. Explaining the facts is time consuming and rarely helps and often actually makes it worse because they think the dealer is trying to talk them into something. The result is that they not only don’t buy the stone, they lose a customer forever. It’s self destructive to their business and most thinking jewelers, at least the ones that are concerned about their reputations, simply won’t do it. The dealers that do buy from the public will usually separate their buying operation because of this problem, which means more overhead and lower prices paid. When they do buy, they will want to pay less than they would otherwise pay their regular suppliers for many of the reasons I described on the last page in my discussion of why consumers prefer to buy from dealers. This is all true for business to business deals also. Add a layer of government regulations for pawn shops, jewelers and others who buy from the public and the prices paid and the profits realized go down even farther.

Consumer to consumer sales are doing better now than ever before, primarily because of ebay and similar venues. There has been a great deal of discussion here about why and why not to shop with this method and it would be pointless to bring it up here.

The dealer diamond listings and the banner advertising that you see are what pays for pricescope. Read through the discussions and you’ll notice that one of the patterns is that customers regularly see the vendors here as something of a collective. “Pricescope dealers” is a term that’s used regularly and it is generally seen as an elite group from the myriad of diamond dealers in the world. For the most part, this is true. They pay to be in this group and many of them work extremely hard to preserve their reputations as such. Adding a free for all consumer sales channel would serve to dilute this and consequently reduce perception of this group. There are plenty of other online trading approaches but none that work as smoothly as ebay or for as low a fee and none that better address the underlying problems associated with buying ‘off the street’. It''s a dicey business and this is reflected in the prices, exactly as it should be.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[fire&ice]

Even SPYGIRL! is getting tired of all these conspiracy theories.

Business is very simple in the end on the secondary market. It''s doesn''t exist on a retail level. Never does. It''s not a conscious squelshing of the market.

I specialize in something very specific. In MY specialty, I can get top dollar for something. I can buy from other dealers & collectors on the secondary market for less. I only work with dealers (who understand that I need to make a mark-up *AND* usually wishes me well with it - "make lots of money") & collectors who understand the very FACT that I am in the business to make money - not subsidise a purchase gone awry. Like Neil mentioned, I, too, run away from buying from a venue that doesn''t get it - Ill feelings all the way around & not worth the trouble.

That said, I don''t deal in old dirt dishes. I nearly threw it out when I received it in a box lot. I happened to ask a dealer friend if it was "anything" . They told me what it was & what they would pay me for it. I had no ill will when I saw it in their *specialty* both w/ a healthy mark-up.

Nature of the beast. Not some conspiracy theory. A retailer whose specialty is "whatever" will always command more money (and subsequently receive it) from the market than an individual or Joe who doesn''t specialize in this "whatever". Be it diamonds, Dirt Dishes or Vacuum cleaners.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

This is bordering on being quite funny!

strmdr feels that a lifetime''s worth of study and work in the diamond business can be taught in 20 minutes.
Heck - he''s even got consumers who "can hold their own with the very best in the business"

If one thinks that way then surely buying a diamond is absolutely a black and white "no brainer"
Most folks who''ve purchased a diamond know different.

It stands to reason that those who have spent years working in the industry might be insulted by strmdr''s attitude

Even the suggestion that all risk is eliminated by using an appraiser is rediculous.

Hypothetical example:
A private seller offers a stone. This seller says it''s G/VS1- but how can folks feel comfortable buying a $5000 diamond from someone they found privately selling- so let''s send it to an appraiser.
What happens if the appraiser gets the diamond, and tells you it''s a K/I2.
You''ve already paid for it- try getting your money back.


Appraisers serve a valid purpose, but they can''t protect you against bad sellers- unless they prevent you from getting involved in the first place. If this hyperthetical secondary seller is honest, and bought the correct stone initially, the appraiser can confirm that.
If the seller is dishonest, the appraiser can confirm that- but the appraiser is NOT going to give you your money back.


There are definately opportunities for private individuals to sell now- prices have skyrocketed so this may make sense.
It would also make sense to buy from private individuals IF it''s someone you know well

 

[pricescope]

It looks like some industry folks take each post where a consumer is sharing a real personal experience as an attack on the etire industry. It is not so.

You, guys, are trying to give us your point of view as the insiders, which is valuable contribution.

The trick, however, is that in order to defend the industry one shouldn't actually try to defend it but help consumers with their problems, instead. As in any trade, there always will be some great and not so great professionals. I think it might be more constructive to show that these great professionals do exist by setting high standards.

And of course it won't help to blame consumers...

 

[pricescope]

David, I don''t think the diamonds is a rocket science for the people with university degrees especially in physics or engineering

 

[strmrdr]

David:
1> if it takes someone a lifetime to learn cert matching then that person has bigger problems than trying to sell diamonds.

2> Send it to the appraiser before money changes hands or if local go together to the appraisers.
If the appraiser verifies the info the money changes hands and the buyer gets the diamond.
Its is as risk free as anything else.

3> for me buying diamonds can be a no brainier or it can be as complicated as I want it to be.
If I had 10k I could call Jon or Brian and say I have 10k find me an asscher and tell me where to send the funds.
Cant get simpler than that they already know what I want in an asscher.

Or I can have them send me a ton of info on 5 or 6 or 10 asschers and crunch the numbers, evaluate the photos , drive myself insane over it for 2 or 3 days and nitpick the info to death then select the one I want.

 

[strmrdr]

just thought of something, Jon and Brian will probably have nightmares for a week over the thought of picking an asscher for me!!
Sorry guys :}
Rofl!

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Leonid- of course you are correct- Learning about diamonds is not "rocket science" for sure.
I don''t think everyone feels like strmdr. I do not feel that saying that he is oversimplifying it - ( as has been said by other professionals in this thread)-is a knock at consumers at all. It''s not rocket science, rather it''s a detail oriented business where small mistakes can be very costly. You don''t need a rocket scientist, but there''s simply no substitute for experience. To know what to look for, and what to look out for. For those experienced enough to feel comfortable, secondary market buying can offer great values- I''ve never disagreed with this.


I also agree that rather than try to contradict what people want, a good seller will assist them in getting exactly what they want.

Luckily for us all, there are many different points of veiw and different desires for different buyers.




It also seems that in spite of all the protests, strmrdr says if he was spending 10K, he''d go to Jon and Brian- trusted, well established dealers. this is what I''ve been saying all along- choose your dealer well, and they will make sure you get exactly what you are looking for.
If you know exactly what you want, a good dealer will get it for you. If you''re not sure what you want, a good dealer can guide you.


Cheers everyone!

 

[strmrdr]

David there is a very good reason Id go with them on a $10k asscher there has been exactly 1 available on the secondary market in my area thats been well cut that Iv seen and I look often.
There have been a couple lower than that and a couple a lot higher but not much in the $10k online equivalent range.
The resale shop owner liked the one I did find it so much that she ended up giving it to her daughter the day after I looked at it.
If I was in the market for one Id check the local secondary market first but the odds are there wont be any available.

There is nothing wrong with buying a diamond from a jeweler.
I have nothing against good jewelers.
It just happens that the majority of the good ones Iv talked to are internet dealers or combo internet and b&m.
There is some stuff about the industry I dont like thats for sure and the suppression of the secondary market is one even if it is too my advantage at times.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Cool! We do agree on some things!
Wouldn''t it be great if we all had a next door neighbor wanting to sell an awqesome Asscher or Cushion at a secondary market price!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/9/2005 8:56

4 PM
Author: diamondsbylauren
Cool! We do agree on some things!

Wouldn't it be great if we all had a next door neighbor wanting to sell an awqesome Asscher or Cushion at a secondary market price!

lol we probably agree on a lot of things.

Yep that would be kewl.

Btw its all your fault iv been thinking about green asschers from mars!
But I really think that its a mutant chicken egg diamond!

http://www.pricescope.com/diamonds/x24499.htm