Old Certs or "Used" Diamonds

[sparkly]

The two stones that I am considering to purchase have GIA certs dated back in July 2001. That''s 3.5 year old! I suspect that they have been traded in to the dealer for upgrades. I noticed quite a few online retailers offer lifetime upgrade guarantee.

The question is whether these "used" diamonds should be discounted like used cars do. I am not sure how much "wear and tear" occur on diamonds but what do dealers do to "refurbish" used diamonds to make them as marketable as brand new ones? Have them repolished? Get them re-certed?

Thanks for any advice that you may offer.

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

Most return policies state that the return is only possible if the diamond is in original condition.

If there is any wear at all, the diamond must be recertified. The certification must match the diamond.

I suppose the bigger vendors have diamonds come back for upgrading regularly enough to warant polishing.

 

[strmrdr]

Depends if the dealer is buying or selling if their buying its near worthless if they are selling its worth full new retail.
I wouldnt pay full new retail in any market on any diamond I suspected was used.
Its a practice to keep the used market suppressed.

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

If you bring me a diamond in prefect condition with a certification (or not), and I have a customer asking for that stone, I will offer it to my customer and if that''s what they want you can get a very good price and a smile.

However, I have too many diamonds in a safe already collecting dust. If you bring me a diamond with a scratch I won''t won''t it, same if it is a bad cut. I would most likely offer my services to make you something rather then buy it, because I know nobody else will want it - well some might.

If you have 10 perfectly matched VS- G- well cut 20pt''ers I''d offer you a good price because I need those pretty often and if I buy cheap I can pass the savings on.

It is about supply and demand as far as buying from a customer goes. Most of the time we don''t want to buy from non-proffessionals unless you have exactly what we need and we know exactly what we are looking at (There are a lot of crooks out there). There is nothing special about having another diamond in the safe. If you have a clean 1ct diamond for a good price almost any jeweller would go for it.

I like to buy from my diamond merchant. He knows his diamonds better then anyone I know and he bends over backwards to get me the best stones he can for a price. He has always been very competative on price and has put a feather in my cap time and time again as far as providing good diamonds cheaply, and in this time of e-vendors drop shipping off lists this is increadibly important. You need to have a good supplier to survive and will always want to keep him/them busy!

Storm why would I want to buy a almost certainly lower quality diamond, that I have no imeadiate need for from someone I owe no loyalty to or may never see again unless it was dramatically cheaper?

 

[diamondsbylauren]

It is possible to wear a diamond for years with no damage at all.
Say a diamond was purchased in 2001, and then traded up.
The dealer might un-mount the stone. If the diamond is without any damage, it is worth exactly what it would be if it were cut last week (which is a lot more than it was worth in 2001)- At this point, a report fropm 2001 is perfectly acceptable- of course GIA will change the reports for round diamonds soon, so that may affect your decision if it''s a well cut round briliant.
If the dealer wants to sell the diamond in the ring which was worn, then there should be disclosure of this, and yes, that should affect the price of the ring. But not a loose diamond IF it''s undamaged and matches the GIA report. Of course those questions need to be answered by a qualified person.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/6/2005 7:11:33 PM
Author: diamondsbylauren
It is possible to wear a diamond for years with no damage at all.

Say a diamond was purchased in 2001, and then traded up.

The dealer might un-mount the stone. If the diamond is without any damage, it is worth exactly what it would be if it were cut last week (which is a lot more than it was worth in 2001)- At this point, a report fropm 2001 is perfectly acceptable- of course GIA will change the reports for round diamonds soon, so that may affect your decision if it''s a well cut round briliant.

If the dealer wants to sell the diamond in the ring which was worn, then there should be disclosure of this, and yes, that should affect the price of the ring. But not a loose diamond IF it''s undamaged and matches the GIA report. Of course those questions need to be answered by a qualified person.

Exackly the attitude I was talking about when a consumer has it its worthless but magicaly gets as good as new once a dealer gets his hands on it.

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

Great post Peter,

Part of the deal when buying a used stone, which if not absolutely perfect, you factor the re-grading costs into the price as well. Thats if they are big enough to warant certifying.

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

Your quite the crusader Storm.

It is good news for consumers that their diamonds will attract the same retail price if they are in perfect condition as any other stone.

IMO it makes perfect sense. They are millions of years old anyway, for starters.

What proof has David given that he buys them for nix? Where is the conspiracy?

It is as I said, it has everything to do with supply and demand, and loyalties. Business is business and we all want the best deal we can get, alternatively we don''t want to make a bad deal. With all the extraneous reasons why not to buy from a consumer we have to make it worth our while.

The trade up policies, as far as I understand are a very good deal for a consumer.

I for one, will always have a used stone re-graded to ensure my peace of mind and that of the end user. It is nice to have two matching certificates so it is worth it.

 

[strmrdr]

Trade up policies are a good thing and have been more common but most of them the max payout is the price paid which in a few years with increases the way they are that will be well under wholesale price too not to mention the retail price.

The entire Debeers diamonds are forever campain was to keep people from selling used diamonds and for decades the used diamond market has been suppressed by dealers buying low and selling as new.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Date: 2/6/2005 7:24:16 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 2/6/2005 7:11:33 PM
Author: diamondsbylauren
It is possible to wear a diamond for years with no damage at all.

Say a diamond was purchased in 2001, and then traded up.

The dealer might un-mount the stone. If the diamond is without any damage, it is worth exactly what it would be if it were cut last week (which is a lot more than it was worth in 2001)- At this point, a report fropm 2001 is perfectly acceptable- of course GIA will change the reports for round diamonds soon, so that may affect your decision if it's a well cut round briliant.

If the dealer wants to sell the diamond in the ring which was worn, then there should be disclosure of this, and yes, that should affect the price of the ring. But not a loose diamond IF it's undamaged and matches the GIA report. Of course those questions need to be answered by a qualified person.

Exackly the attitude I was talking about when a consumer has it its worthless but magicaly gets as good as new once a dealer gets his hands on it.

When people purchase something like a diamond from a dealer it IS worth more than when they purchase it from a private individual.

If Blue Nile has a diamond they can charge more than when Joe Smith has it up for sale in the pennysaver, or on eBay. After all, you want to make sure that you get a money back guarantee, trade up possibilites, after sale service- this all adds up to real value an established dealer offers. This makes all sorts of products more valuable when offered by a dealer. Cars, Art, Insurance, Dental Work, what have you.....

If you were buying a diamond wouldn't you want to get it from an established source?

As far as what that established source might pay someone who walks in off the street to sell any given diamond- the same rules apply.
It's worth more to a dealer when the seller is an established source.
This adds up to a sad fact.
If a person paid $10k for a diamond from an established dealer, and wants to simply sell it outright after a short period of time, they could be "upside-down".
If they bought a desirable diamond at a very good price they could likely recover a good deal of their money pretty easy- from a number of buyers.
But if they bought from a higher margin seller, they might be looking at 25%- a harsh reality for buyers that buy and then discover lower prices ( and better stones) available on the internet after some research.

 

[strmrdr]

"If you were buying a diamond wouldn''t you want to get it from an established source?"

Nope Id be much more likely to buy used and pocket the extra cash if at all possible :}

 

[valeria101]

I haven''t known of Pricescope since it''s very beginning, so I missed some experiments ...

Does anyone remember the "private sales" section ?

 

[windowshopper]

Date: 2/6/2005 7:53:11 PM
Author: Platinumsmith
Your quite the crusader Storm.

It is good news for consumers that their diamonds will attract the same retail price if they are in perfect condition as any other stone.

IMO it makes perfect sense. They are millions of years old anyway, for starters.

What proof has David given that he buys them for nix? Where is the conspiracy?

It is as I said, it has everything to do with supply and demand, and loyalties. Business is business and we all want the best deal we can get, alternatively we don''t want to make a bad deal. With all the extraneous reasons why not to buy from a consumer we have to make it worth our while.

The trade up policies, as far as I understand are a very good deal for a consumer.

I for one, will always have a used stone re-graded to ensure my peace of mind and that of the end user. It is nice to have two matching certificates so it is worth it.

yes they are worth quite a bit less than their purchase price BUT there are very few items that are at all re-saleable.... I bet diamonds get the larger precentage back

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Date: 2/6/2005 9

8:20 PM
Author: strmrdr
''If you were buying a diamond wouldn''t you want to get it from an established source?''

Nope Id be much more likely to buy used and pocket the extra cash if at all possible :}

strnrdr,
Of course, it''s your money....but- you claim to be NOT a diamond expert- you''d feel comforatable forking over $10k to some person not involved inthe diamond business? Neither of you would be an expert- how would you even know if you were getting the same stone as the GIA report? Of course it is anyone''s right to buy wherever they wish- but can''t you see the risk?

WS- Yes- diamonds are among the best consumer products regarding value retention over time.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/7/2005 3:26:58 PM
Author: diamondsbylauren

Date: 2/6/2005 9

8:20 PM
Author: strmrdr
''If you were buying a diamond wouldn''t you want to get it from an established source?''

Nope Id be much more likely to buy used and pocket the extra cash if at all possible :}

strnrdr,
Of course, it''s your money....but- you claim to be NOT a diamond expert- you''d feel comforatable forking over $10k to some person not involved inthe diamond business? Neither of you would be an expert- how would you even know if you were getting the same stone as the GIA report? Of course it is anyone''s right to buy wherever they wish- but can''t you see the risk?

WS- Yes- diamonds are among the best consumer products regarding value retention over time.

Sure if I had 10k and someone had a diamond.
It doesnt take an expert to match a diamond to a cert.
All it takes is a loupe 10x for si''s 10x and 15x for vs and add a 30x for vvs stones "If" I wouldnt trust myself on.
imho someone who really wanted to learn could learn cert matching in under 20 min.

 

[strmrdr]

as a follow up:
If the deal is accross the net Richard ,Dave ,Neil or another independant appraiser could be used to check the stone before money changes hands.
If I buy a 10k diamond its going to get appraised anyway for insurance reasons no matter who it comes from so other than working out the details with the seller there isnt really any extra cost or work involved.

 

[denverappraiser]

Storm,

There are lots of reasons that a diamond can be more valuable when purchased from a dealer. Here are a few:

1) Assurance that the item is not stolen or otherwise from dubious sources
2) Someone to take recourse against if item #1 turns out to be false.
3) Financing and other special terms.
4) Return privileges and trade up programs
5) Warrantees
6 )Prestigious packaging
7) The opportunity to examine the stone and compare it to others in a convenient and well designed environment.
Speed
9) Buyer education
10) Assistance in making the selection.
11) Ease of access
12) Comfortable shopping experience
13) Convenient access to setters, designers, etc.
None of the above require “New” merchandise but this is often something that the dealers offer although, unlike cars, it’s a little hard to define and even harder to identify. Diamonds recycle pretty well but there is often some additional work required to put the deal together. This can include repair of damage or simply replacing the report with a newer and perhaps more saleable variety. The date of mining and the provenance of the stone in question is not the whole issue. It’s usually not even an especially important element although for certain customers it may be an issue.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Date: 2/7/2005 3:59:10 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 2/7/2005 3:26:58 PM
Author: diamondsbylauren

Date: 2/6/2005 9

8:20 PM
Author: strmrdr
''If you were buying a diamond wouldn''t you want to get it from an established source?''

Nope Id be much more likely to buy used and pocket the extra cash if at all possible :}

strnrdr,
Of course, it''s your money....but- you claim to be NOT a diamond expert- you''d feel comforatable forking over $10k to some person not involved inthe diamond business? Neither of you would be an expert- how would you even know if you were getting the same stone as the GIA report? Of course it is anyone''s right to buy wherever they wish- but can''t you see the risk?

WS- Yes- diamonds are among the best consumer products regarding value retention over time.

Sure if I had 10k and someone had a diamond.
It doesnt take an expert to match a diamond to a cert.
All it takes is a loupe 10x for si''s 10x and 15x for vs and add a 30x for vvs stones ''If'' I wouldnt trust myself on.
imho someone who really wanted to learn could learn cert matching in under 20 min.

strnrdr- If you believe that you can learn all about "cert matching" in 20 minutes you are incorrect.
If you want to take your chances, fine. It would be pretty easy for someone NOT involved in the diamond business to get duped by an unscrupulous seller - especially if the buyer believes "cert matching" is a skill learned on 20 minutes.

If you were to send a stone to any of the fine appraisers you mentioned, that would be a very sound move- but it is NOT accurate to lead folks to believe that making sure a diamond matches the GIA report is a "no brainer"

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/7/2005 4:33:30 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Storm,

There are lots of reasons that a diamond can be more valuable when purchased from a dealer. Here are a few:

1) Assurance that the item is not stolen or otherwise from dubious sources

2) Someone to take recourse against if item #1 turns out to be false.

3) Financing and other special terms.

4) Return privileges and trade up programs

5) Warrantees

6 )Prestigious packaging

7) The opportunity to examine the stone and compare it to others in a convenient and well designed environment.

Speed

9) Buyer education

10) Assistance in making the selection.

11) Ease of access

12) Comfortable shopping experience

13) Convenient access to setters, designers, etc.

A drop shipping LLC offers none of those advantages and they sell a lot of diamonds.
So there's are worth more huh? :}

 

[strmrdr]

Get real cert matching is not rocket science.
Do I recommend that everyone do it themselves of course not.
Can I do it? You bet. It is a lot easier than troubleshooting a 2000 chip smt circuit board.
Which I have done.
Can others do it yep you bet they can if they put the effort into it.
With 20 min. training yep some could.

Do I recommend it as a good thing to do for most people? NO I dont. Hiring a skilled independent appraiser is always a good idea.

 

[denverappraiser]

1) Assurance that the item is not stolen or otherwise from dubious sources
2) Someone to take recourse against if item #1 turns out to be false.
3) Financing and other special terms.
4) Return privileges and trade up programs
5) Warrantees
6 )Prestigious packaging
7) The opportunity to examine the stone and compare it to others in a convenient and well designed environment.
Speed
9) Buyer education
10) Assistance in making the selection.
11) Ease of access
12) Comfortable shopping experience
13) Convenient access to setters, designers, etc.

"A drop shipping LLC offers none of those advantages and they sell a lot of diamonds."

Storm,

Not every dealer is equally good at all of these issues and many will offer other advantages but I''m happy to stick with this list as a sample set. Let''s take them one at a time.

1&2) The dealer is adding their own credibility and their assurance of a proper ownership trail. Any problems will lead directly their doorstep and they make themselves very easy to contact. Obviously there can be dealers whose assurance is worth more than others but this is a function of the merits of the dealer and their system, not their choice of venues or their stocking decisions. I would be very surprised if anything bought from DirtCheap turned out to be stolen and, if it were to happen, I would expect them to immediately make it right no matter how long it has been since the sale. I would be far less confident buying from a private party.

3) Why can''t a dropshipper offer financing, just like everyone else? Blue Nile does.

4&5) Most will offer at least the return privlidge and many will offer tradeup programs that last forever. Each dealer can offer whatever program they wish.

6) Blue Nile does this every day as do the other ''branded'' sites. You may not count their brand as especially valuable but there are clearly others who do. BN is a very successful company dispite the fact that they comparatively expensive.

7) Most dropshippers are prepared to show you several stones and allow you to choose one and return the rest. On a nearly daily basis I have customers order in several stones from online sellers that they want to see them in my office as part of their decision making process. Although a private seller could do the same thing, the online dealers are very accustomed to this and private parties almost never are.

8, 11 & 12) Any good dropshipper can have a stone in you hand tomorrow to fit pretty any much set of requirements you have and you won''t even have to get out of your chair or put down the doritos. The whole transaction can be done in less than 10 minutes.

9&10) These are actually strong suits for most of the online sellers, especially when compared to private parties. Even the very best dealers find it difficult to compete in these areas.

13) This is not the strongest issue for the dropshippers but they beat the private sellers hands down. Most can order in a stone, have it set by a reasonably skilled craftsman into an entirely adequate ring, sized to an appropriate size and delivered to anywhere on the planet within a few days. Very few private sellers are prepared to do the same.

"So there''s are worth more huh? :}"

yes.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/7/2005 6:54:46 PM
Author: Feydakin
None except


1) Assurance that the item is not stolen or otherwise from dubious sources

2) Someone to take recourse against if item #1 turns out to be false.

3) Financing and other special terms.

4) Return privileges and trade up programs

5) Warrantees

6 )Prestigious packaging

11) Ease of access

Lets address the points:
1) Assurance that the item is not stolen or otherwise from dubious sources
Guarantee me that any diamond isnt a "blood diamond" other than a certed Canadian diamonds. An older diamond is less likely to be so tained.

2) Someone to take recourse against if item #1 turns out to be false.

Do you even know what a LLC is? there is nothing there to take recourse against.
Criminal charges could be brought just as easily either way so thats no advantage.

3) Financing and other special terms.
From most if not all drop shippers .. no way.

4) Return privileges and trade up programs

bzzzzzt again some might but most dont have trade up programs and returns maybe if they dont close shop and open under another name next week.


5) Warrantees

Is any diamond ever warrantied??
Most of them they just add the cost of insurance into the price and insure it.


6 )Prestigious packaging

plastic box inside a cardboard box?

11) Ease of access
Maybe an advantage :}

 

[strmrdr]

btw blue nile is neither a typical drop shipper nor a LLC.

 

[sparkly]

Steve, Platinumsmith, Crankydave, and others,

Thanks for your input. I didn''t expect my simple question to raise so many interesting points of view. I guess as a consumer, I am not totally against buying a "used" diamond, which I would define as previously worn by other people. The concerns I have with "dated" certificates are:

1) Do the stones still match those old certificates?
2) Are the stones not marketable b/c they are of poor quality or defective?
3) If the stones were indeed trade-ins, have they been properly examined for chips or scratches or properly "reconditioned"?

As long as dealers are honest about the stones'' history, I don''t see a problem buying properly "reconditioned" "used" stones.

When should dated certs be re-certified? Is there a rule of thumb in the diamond industry? How much does it cost to get it re-certified by, say, GIA?

There''s also a lot of discussion about matching stones with their certs. I am curious if anyone knows how many forged/fake certificates are there floating in the market. Is there a way to verify whether the certificates are authentic?

 

[valeria101]

Date: 2/8/2005 2:13:1 AM
Author: sparkly

Is there a way to verify whether the certificates are authentic?

You can check the registration number on the lab report with the issuing lab and see if the number corresponds to a cert and what the respective cert says.

Sure enough, this is just as easy for a potential forgerer to do! But... there doesn't seem to be many out there. Faking certs is not very easy - they carry safety elements much like paper money do. Sounds "lucrative" but the relatively low cost of re-grading must make fakes relatively easy to unravel.

It is quite unfortunate that GIA does not take in jewelry and loose stones from the public. Perhaps an appraiser could intermediate regrading for a private transaction.

 

[denverappraiser]

Sparkley,

We surely did hijack your thread. Obviously this is s hot topic that could stretch out forever. I''ll try to get back on track.

The way to be certain you are getting what you want, that it is accurately described and that it has no hidden defects is to use the services of a competent appraiser. Diamonds do not deteriorate with age but they can be damaged. This is every bit as true for stones that were examined by a lab last week as it is for stones that were examined in the 80''s. It''s one of the reasons to have a stone examined by a professional as soon as you buy (or consider buying) it.

I have seen quite a few counterfeit lab reports. It''s true that most legitimate reports have security measures in place but it''s also true that most people are completely unfamiliar with what those measures are. I will not discuss this issue in a public forum because the act of teaching consumers what to look for is identical to teaching the criminals how to make a fake. If you buy on the merits of the stone instead of the merits of the paper then you have fairly low risk. If you''re concerned, hire a pro.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

Any decent stone seller knows if a diamond is deffective and will have it re-certified if there are issues. Very few diamonds are bought if the diamond is not in original condition, and those are bought for repair work to be used alongside similar stones (be they old cuts or just age worn). At pricescope we are talking about the best of the best diamonds alone and there is no way any seller will try and sell a poor second hand diamond, as new, using an old certificate that doesn''t match. 99.99% IMO are new.

Buying a used stone requires a good eye and access to a good cutter. A re-polished stone is as good if it was polished well. It will definetally be re-graded, as some weight will be lost.

Anything less is uncomon. Try an appraiser if you have doubts or try one anyway. There should be o% chance of a discrepency.

It is criminal to do otherwise

 

[valeria101]

Speaking of getting new reports... how can a private seller do this ?

If the lab report is so darn important for purchases from established jewelers... it could only be times more so for private transactions. GIA doesn''t take orders. Anyone else ?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/9/2005 7:31:10 AM
Author: Feydakin
I can see it now -


''The lab switched my diamonds!!!''

Im am getting pretty sick of you posting crap like that.
Im getting real tired of you attacking consumers at every opportunity and im not the only one.

When are you going to get it thru your head that there are consumers out there that have bothered to learn enough about diamonds that they know more than the average jeweler?
There are several on this board that can hold their own with the very best in the business.
Diamond switching happens but its very rare there was a jeweler that was put out of business for it in a my area a few years back so it does happen.
He was also one of the ones that went out of business every few years and reopened across the street.
For all the talk of trusted people in the diamond industry he never seemed to have a problem with his suppliers.

The days of consumers being forced to trust a jeweler because there isnt any other option are over.
They will have to earn their business just like everyone else the protection racket is gone.
The bottom line is some jewelers will adapt and thrive some will go out of business.
Locally there are several b&m''s that are expanding and thriving so some are doing it right.
Are they my type of store no not really but im not the typical customer either.

The constant whining by some b&m''s and the constant attacks are stupid they are only hurting themselves.
The best will roll up their sleeves and get to work earning our business.
One local b&m owner when I asked him about online forums said that if he had time to hang out on one then he wasnt doing his job right because he should be too busy serving his local customers and he is.
He is also one that admits he hasnt had time to keep up with the latest happenings and cut studies.
The industry publications would be much better serve sending information that jewelers need to keep up than wasting time whining about the Internet.
I suspect that is the case with a lot of the best strictly local b&m''s they are too busy serving their customers which is why we dont hear from them.
Some b&m''s have made the web part of their business and they are serving their customers by spending time here.
That is also why you see a lot of the same core group of vendors on here a lot.
They earn our recommendations and support the same way a b&m could locally just a different medium and a more wide spread audience.
The bottom line is that there are some bad b&m''s out there just like there are some bad Internet vendors and they do give other parties a bad name.
Attacking consumers for talking about them will just further the gulf and strengthen the resolve of those that arent apt to give a local jeweler another chance.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 2/9/2005 7:31:10 AM
Author: Feydakin
I can see it now -

''The lab switched my diamonds!!!''

Hei! I like this

Actually... you never know. I have a course of actuarial math on my hands - all about perfectly rational paranoia

Seriously. I am quite amazed private sales never quite took off on this forum. And even more amazed at the "secondary market" discounts. Certification should have done away with them, if it was really the ultimate valuation authority. It was meant to do just that (make diamonds into an investment product blah...blah). Is there some generally accepted explanation why it didn''t ?