OEC 3.10 L/VS1 and friends, what do you think?

[Sagefemme]

I have posted a bit off and on with unclear intentions about what I want. Bottom line, a 30th anniversary ring. Currently I wear a bezel set 3 stone ring with M colored AVRs (1.16 center, 0.25 sides) and I love it, a good friend of mine designed the setting. I'll try to post a picture. Lately I'm having upgrade-itis. My mom died in August and when her condominium sells (very likely soon) some part of me thinks I deserve a spectacular ring with some of the proceeds (my husband thinks we should just sock it away with the rest of the retirement funds, but that seems so boring). I spent a lot of time caring for her in the last two years of her life and she, I think, would approve of getting something extravagant and beautiful. Anyway I have come to realize that old style cuts are my thing, and I have been working with OWD on finding a great center stone. Here are some contenders, and I would love any expert opinions on how they are likely to perform. I think I'm going to have one of them sent to me this week for in-person viewing. I have tried to post links to the you tube videos (not sure if it worked) but in any case I don't find them very helpful. I think they're not close up enough. The 3.10 is actually outside my budget but Adam seems very enthusiastic about it. I could probably swing it if it's fantastic.

2.57 M/VVS2
8.74 X 8.76 X 5.35
Polish and symmetry good
Table 47%
Depth 61.1%
Girdle: thin to slightly thick
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch....com/watch?v=qLINHmSg3PU&feature=youtu.be/url]

2.36 K/VVS2
8.5 X 8.52 X 5.27
Polish and symmetry very good
Table 52%
Depth 62%
girdle thin to medium
Fluorescence: faint
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch....com/watch?v=Dn-s4pXySfU&feature=youtu.be/url]

3.10 L/VS1
9.02 X 9.04 X 6.07
Polish and symmetry good
table 45%
depth 67.3%
girdle thin to slightly thick
http://www.oldworlddiamonds.com/dia...mazing stone first and a setting second. Sue

 

[MarionC]

Sagefemme,I am sorry about your Mom. What a great way to honor her, by wearing something beautiful and full of lively sparkle every day.

Excited for you! I have no advice except what was given me; Take your time, you'll know the right one when you see it.
What you love may not be what other people might choose, your particular eye will like a certain "flavor". [I chose between a killer photogenically perfect OEC with a tiny culet and a moody big-culet OEC with tons of character. The moody one captured my heart].

Have fun! Can't wait to see what you choose.

 

[missy]

Sue, I am very sorry about your mom and how wonderful you were there for her to care for her when she needed you. I am glad you are able to do this to honor her memory and keep her by your side always. I LOVE the 3.1 LVS1. Now remember I am just going by this short video you posted but this OEC drew me in...the beautiful crisp facet pattern is what caught my eye and the size is good too. Chunky goodness with a mainly on facet pattern from what I can tell in the video and it looks very white face up even compared to the K you posted. I love the small table too. That's the one I would want to explore further. As Jimmianne wrote though there is no right or wrong per se when it comes to certain decisions because it is about what appeals to you. Good luck and please keep us posted.

 

[missy]

LOL I just realized I saw this in person with LLJs mom a few weeks ago. My brain is still waking up but at least I am consistent as I loved it then and I love it now. It is a beautiful stone in person IMO. Lively with big fat chunky facets. It glows from within. The L was deLicious.

 

[Lookinagain]

I like them all!

 

[marymm]

Yes, I also vote for the 3.10ct L-VS1 OEC - it is captivating and so beautiful. I do like the 2.57ct M-VVS2 too though (just based on the videos) its tint seems obvious in comparison to the 3.10ct L-VS1 OEC. The 2.36ct K-VVS2 did not stand out to me, perhaps due to its larger table and/or the fact that I clicked on the L-VS1 video first and fell in love, then I clicked on the 2.57ct and thought "this really is nice", and last clicked on the 2.36ct and thought "not even in the running."

Did Adam provide any comments/opinions as to the strengths/weaknesses of the three, especially comparatively speaking?

 

[Veltiesmom]

Hi! I had the 3.10 L at my house for a bit along with some other of Adam's OECs. It was very sparkly and I liked the color. However to my eye it did not have a flowery center facet pattern, which I like, so I ultimately passed. I'll try to upload some pics later so you can see. The other videos seemed to show more flowery faceting, but it's all a matter of preference - what do you like?

Edited to add - Adam told me he thinks the 3.10 L is one of the nicest stones in his inventory.

 

[Sagefemme]

Missy--what does "a mainly on facet pattern" mean? I'm sure it's something specific and important but I don't know the terminology! I saw a post here somewhere about short pavillion mains being responsible, IIRC, for mushiness under the table--is that what you're saying this stone doesn't have? The three stones I'm considering all have GIA certs but so few measurements are given--sometimes just the table and depth percentages. I'm also curious Missy if you saw this L next to any other OECs, and how it compared?

marymm Adam seems very enthusiastic about the "L". He first recommended the 2.57 M to me based on the budget and preferences I gave him. I saw the 2.36 K on the website and asked for more info on that one, since it too fit my desires and budget. He encouraged me to look at the 3.10 L even though it's clearly outside budget and bigger than I wanted (I asked for 8-9 mm). He has described it (in emails) as stunning. He said it's his current favorite stone in their inventory, and has considered buying it himself! I of course don't know what to make of this, maybe his favorite changes every 48 hours But it seems he thinks it's a great stone.

He is shipping the 3.10 to me; I should have it Saturday. I feel like I'm sliding down a very slippery and expensive slope. If it's fabulous I could probably swing it financially, but like any newbie I'll be very nervous about making a decision on such a big purchase (high 20s). My current ring is a three stone with "M" AVRs, so I guess I have a very good performer to compare the OEC to, although my center AVR is only 1.16 carats with sides of 0.25. Is it advisable to get an outside appraiser like David Atlas to evaluate?

 

[LLJsmom]

Yes Missy, that is the one we saw. The L 3.1. A very lively stone, and gorgeous. If it's not for YOU OP, keep looking. Adam has a ton of stones.

 

[Sagefemme]

Veltiesmom thanks for the reply. This is my problem, I have not seen enough OEC to know what I like, which somehow makes me think I can't make this purchase with any kind of confidence. Maybe I need to fly to NYC.........seeing them all together would help. I would love to see your pictures if you can post them.

 

[Veltiesmom]

Oh trust me, there have been many times over the past few months when I wished I could just beam myself to NYC! My sister lives in Brooklyn and actually just went in to see Adam - she got to try on lots of enormous (like 22 carat!) diamonds! That Adam just has piles of diamonds, it seems.

I was in your boat a very short time ago so I will just pass along the advice that my wise friend Diamondseeker gave me - don't try to buy an OEC on the numbers or even on the photos. See them in person, and see as many as you possibly can! This is what I did, in no particular order, to help me refine my preferences: 1) visited lots of local antique stores to look at OECs, including trips to Lang's antiques in SF (amazing!) 2) looked at photos and specs on probably every OEC SMTB thread on PS, 3) looked at photos and spec information of probably at least half of the diamonds on the Jewels by Grace and Love Affair Diamonds websites - the reason for this being they have AWESOME photos and videos that will really give you a good sense of the different faceting types out there- it helped me realize I like a very flowery center and crisp facets. 4) watched all of the Good Old Gold Youtube videos on OECs, and 5) had vendors (mostly Adam) ship me a bunch of different OECs to view and compare at home. This is great because you can stare at them endlessly, photograph, try them out in various light, etc. I also found it necessary to help me decide if a lower color would work for me, as my former stone was a G.

When I started this process I couldn't really tell much difference between various OECs - I knew some were more pleasing than others to me, but I didn't know why. The more I saw, the more I figured out what I loved which helped so much!

Ill post a few photos of the L in a moment, but I do have a bunch as well as videos. I could email them to you if we can figure out a way to do that - assuming it's not against the rules? When you see the L photos, compare the faceting with the faceting in these diamonds: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/poll-papa-bear-or-mama-bear.216682/ To my eye, these diamonds are all much more flowery in the middle than the L. The L had more angular center faceting, and looked "deep" in the middle to me, as if you could really see down into the center of the diamond. Not better or worse necessarily, it just depends on your preference.

 

[Sagefemme]

Veltiesmom that is so helpful, thank you. I guess I can figure out what you finally got by looking at your posts. I'm pretty close to the beginning of this process I guess. If it's easier to email pics I'm **edited by moderator, please do not post personal information for everyone's safety**.

One other thing to all of you who are knowledgeable: does it seem like $9000 per carat is at the way upper end for any L color diamond?

 

[Veltiesmom]

Here are some photos to give you an idea of the facet pattern. Color wise, the second photo is probably the best representation. I thought the color was lovely.

 

[Veltiesmom]

My journey isn't over yet either! I am currently wearing that 4.02 L SI1, which is lovely - but Adam has his eye out for a stone with similar faceting and a higher crown/smaller table (more classic OEC proportions).

FWIW, I have found Adam's prices to be very comparatively reasonable. This will make you feel better actually - I had a local B&M jeweler call in some OECs for me just for purposes of furthering my OEC education. He showed me three OECs that were right around 3.0 carats - two Js and an I. They ranged in price between 58K and 79K. Not that buying from a B&M was ever an option. But I've found Adam to be competitive with the other antique vendors here - and he was also willing to buy my original stone. I have been extremely pleased with the experience and with his customer service.

 

[Sagefemme]

WOW, spendy indeed. Here's another question, off topic but I'm wondering, is there is a season to diamond buying? Some vendors I've looked at in years past seem to have much less on their websites. Is everyone in the world buying an engagement ring for the holiday season? Or are we lookers having everything shipped to us so everything is in the mail at all times ? Makes me wonder a little if I should wait.

A few years ago when I bought my AVRs from GOG there seemed to be so much more to choose from. And especially he's low in OECs. Maybe he's out of the antique business......on the other hand perhaps some other vendors have grown. I'm not in the know about these things.

Thank you for the pics. I see what you mean about facet pattern. This is more geometrical (triangles and squares and straight-sided shapes) than flowery, which seems to be characterized by some rounded shapes.

 

[missy]

Hi Sagefemme, facets being mainly on mean being bright not dark. Some stones have facets that are more dark/off much of the time. You want an OEC that has more on facets than off at any given time so the stone looks lively and bright. Hope that makes sense.

There really is no good substitute for seeing the stones in person so you can examine them in all different lighting environments and conditions and see what you think. The more stones you look at the better you will know what you love and what you don't love in an old cut.

The L in person is a really lively stone with a great facet pattern and full of personality. It faces up very white IMO. We saw it next to a number of stones and this one really stood out to me. I think we saw the K you are looking at which is also a lovely stone but for me the L was the winner. Again it is a personal choice what appeals to you and seeing them in person is best. Though I know it is not the easy answer it is the best way to choose.

I find Adam to be very fair with his pricing and as you mentioned he also buys your stone towards the trade and again I found him to be very fair on both ends. Some vendors will give you a trade in price for your stone and then mark up what you are purchasing from them. In my experience Adam does not do that. He offered the best price for my original ER stone and also charged what I considered to be a fair price for my now OEC diamond. So I had a good experience with him and really he is a sweetheart. He will take time with you as he wants you to feel good about your choice. He doesn't pressure you in any way. Even after I bought Bea he told me he wanted me to be happy and he held onto my original ER stone until I was sure Bea was a keeper. He is a jewel among the jewels.

One last important piece of advice-take your time and if you are not sure keep looking. Do not rush into the purchase if you have questions or doubt OK? I am glad you are getting this stone shipped to you so you could see it for yourself. IMO it is special. I joked with Adam and LLJsmom that if I could afford to I would get the L and make a pendant out of it. That would be a very expensive pendant and I really need to start playing the lottery. It is a gorgeous stone and I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Good luck and enjoy the process.

 

[apacherose]

So I had a good experience with him and really he is a sweetheart. He will take time with you as he wants you to feel good about your choice. He doesn't pressure you in any way. Even after I bought Bea he told me he wanted me to be happy and he held onto my original ER stone until I was sure Bea was a keeper. He is a jewel among the jewels.

.

He always sounds like such a great vendor! What nice words.

I, too, like the 'L'! You can see why it is more expensive than the others, quite a pretty diamond!! I liked it in Veltie'smoms thread photos, too, but she didn't seem to consider that one much.

 

[LLJsmom]

If you are spending that much and going to look at the diamond all day, nothing beats peace of mind more than looking at all the stones IRL. WORTH THE $300-$400 for a plane tix. It was worth it for me even when I did NOT buy anything. I got a much better sense of what I wanted. My color tolerance, the facet pattern that I preferred. Missy and I looked at the same stones, and I preferred the K. I teally had to watch them sparkle so j could see what facets lit up. Everyone sees different things. The K has a flatter crown but to my eye it didn't affect the sparkle and beauty of the diamond. I noticed the facet pattern which appeared more organized and I liked the K color better. The color difference was noticeable to me and I could tell the stones apart. Ask Adam to show you the 3.04 K from GIA. It is a bit more than the L. I didn't buy the L bc I knew I liked the K more. Too bad I can't afford the K right now.

Adam is awesome, so easy going, super nice and no pressure at all. I am so happy I met him in person. Thank you Missy for arranging it.

Go to NYC and have a great time.

 

[Sagefemme]

Thanks you guys, you are all VERY helpful. I think the best advice is to take my time and really get clear about what visual factors "speak" to me the most. Although going to New York is also very sensible since my sister lives there and I go at least once a year anyway. I have a feeling when I see this 3.01 L I'm going to think it's really beautiful but also that it's really too big for me. What I mean by that is, while I have biggish fingers (very STRONG looking hands, is how I like to think of it) and a bigger stone makes sense for coverage, I am not in a diamond-y crowd at all. My friends would be incredulous about spending this kind of money on a jewel. After all, I live in Eugene, Oregon, land of hemp bracelets and all organic, vegan living (and dreadlocks). I'm exaggerating, of course (my friends have regular hair) but you get the picture. I want big enough to have more impact than my 3 stone, bezel set, 1 carat center AVR, but not so big that everyone KNOWS it's a CZ and wonders why I'm wearing such an eye-catcher. Does that make sense? I'll still wear the three stone because it's so practical for everyday. But bottom line is I will likely prefer something smaller than the L that I'll see tomorrow (9.04 X 9.02).

 

[ericad]

Here in the Pacific Northwest there is such a different attitude about diamonds (I'm near Seattle)!!!

I agree with what so many posters here have said. So much about finding a perfect old cut is how the diamond makes you feel when you look at it. That's the key. Even if, on paper, it's not quite what you thought you'd like.

Take your time to find the perfect stone. Good luck with your search - I hope the 3ct is a keeper, but if not, the perfect OEC is out there waiting to be discovered. The treasure hunt is the best part.

 

[Rockinruby]

Sagefemme, I think it's well worth the plane ticket to see stones in person. Especially since you can visit with your sister too! You have to find what makes your heart sing and what you feel comfortable wearing.

 

[LLJsmom]

Here is the K I loved.



However, in realizing that I loved the K because of its more organized facet pattern which I personally loved, I realized that I would be even happier with a precision cut version of this stone, which tells me that I would probably love an AVR even more. I don't think I need the stone to be unique, one of a kind, which is part of the charm of a true OEC. I'm fine with a cut that other people have. Lol!

Allow yourself the time to figure out what speaks to you.

 

[missy]

LLJsmom, I love that pic of the K.

 

[Sagefemme]

LLjsmom is that the 3.04 K you mentioned? It is beautiful, and if those are your fingers, very nice with your skin tone. I see what you mean about the very organized facet pattern. What I wonder about and maybe ericad can comment on this is where do new OECs come from? Or new on the market, is what I mean. If they were cut around 100 years ago aren't the ones that exist already on the market? I'm sure there are estate sales, and grandma's ring surfacing sometimes, but there are a fixed number of these stones in existence and if I am waiting for "my" stone to come along, where does it come from? Is there a lot of recycling of stones--everyone eventually upgrades and sells their old stone? It seems mysterious to me.

 

[Sagefemme]

And as far as visiting OWD in person, I have to tell you all that my sis who is pretty bohemian, buys all her clothes in consignment shops, would think I had lost my mind going to the diamond district. She rejects such symbols of bourgeois success......What can I say; I don't know why I want a big shiny diamond, but I do. At least I know I'm in good company here. I just have to smile picturing her reaction to this project. But she loves me, and we just went through my mom's passing together, so it would probably turn into a fun adventure. She is an artist and very visual, so she could probably turn her skills with color and form into evaluation of an OEC. And a setting. I love Jericosmom's big center with side bullets. I honestly start feeling tired when I consider finding a setting after finding the stone. Honestly it's tempting to buy this:

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/rings/vintage-inspired/2-16ct-old-european-cut-diamond-trilogy-ring-gia-h-vvs2-steven-kirsch-setting#.VlAmJd-rS34

Or this:

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/rings/vintage-inspired/2-64ct-old-european-cut-diamond-tapered-french-cut-setting-by-leon-mege#.VlAmU9-rS34

I find both those rings very appealing. Any opinions on these guys?

 

[LLJsmom]

http://www.goodoldgold.com/ecommerce/diamonds/round/august-vintage-round.html

Good Old Gold cuts a modern version of the old European cuts. Because they are precision cut, the light performance for most of their stones get AGS 000. There are a ton of videos on YouTube. Just look up "AVR" and you will see every derivation of size, cut and color to examine under various lighting conditions.

Victor Canera also cuts his own Canera Antique Cushion and Rounds that are stunning. Bright chunky flashes of light also graded AGS 000. Check them out on his website.
https://www.victorcanera.com/diamonds?shape[]=old-european-cut
So I was saying that I will end up getting a recently cut OEC-style stone bc I am super anal and love the symmetry in the facet pattern of a super precisely cut stone. I want all the facets to light up (or as many as possible). it is a long way away, but at least I know now.

 

[LLJsmom]

With regard to the two stones you posted, for my tastes, which can be quite different from yours, i would be the H might be a little too cold for me. After seeing a variety of colors IRL, I found that G and H stones reflected less of a variety of lights back to my eyes. I found J and K stones to reflect the most pastels and multicolors in even one facet. I don't know if I could live with an SI1 for my ering. However, you are getting a great deal with regard to the setting which can cost an arm and a leg. For me though, I have mind clean issues so the clarity of the K may be a deal breaker. For a second ring which I am planning for, I might be able to live with it.

I prefer the three stone, but since it comes with the H, I may not. BUT!!!!! Each Old stone can be soooo different, I would have to see it IRL be certain I wouldn't like it. So I guess in the end I would send for the H three stone and give it a try. If it works out you will have it all at a super good price. If not, you are out a couple hundred bucks on shipping I think. Worth the risk to me. I think Grace has a return policy.

 

[Sagefemme]

LLJsmom, I know all about GOG AVRs; in fact I have one (some)! The ring I'm currently wearing (alone, as a wedding band) is a three stone bezel set wax carved piece, center is an "M" AVR 1.16 carats and sides 0.25 and 0.26 AVRs as well. So I am very well acquainted with the excellent light performance of these modern stones. When I started looking for something a bit bigger I leaned toward OECs because carat for carat they seem more economical, and if I can find one that I like I'll be getting more millimeters in diameter for my buck. I am not very color sensitive; my M AVRs are set in 14 karat gold with a 22 carat "wash." They look white enough to me. And, at my age (let's just say over 50) I would be hard pressed to see even SI1 inclusions without my reading glasses.........what older people vs younger people care about in a diamond is really affected by presbyopia!

But in fact I have been looking at modern "old style" cuts. GOG has them, Victor Canera has them, DBL has them, and I think at least one other vendor has them (maybe Brilliantly Engaged?). But as I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, inventory seems to be down. Neither GOG nor VC has anything that meets my needs (lower color, 8-9 mm, $15000-$25000). When I bought my AVRs from GOG in 2012 there were far more possibilities in lower colored stones than there are now. Jewels by EricaGrace also has lower colored OECs that might meet my needs. I started with OWD because they seem to have the biggest selection of old stones.

BUT BUT BUT the most important thing is that the OWD L 3.10 VS1 OEC arrived today via FedEx, and I've spent the last few hours observing this stone in various lighting situations in my home AND comparing light performance, fire and brilliance to my AVR ring. The L is very slightly whiter-appearing than the AVR M stones. The brightness was comparable. And the fire and flash was slightly greater with the OEC than the AVRs. This may be because 1) The OEC arrived spotless from OWD (my ring is pretty clean but I need to clean it before declaring the OEC the winner here), and 2) A significantly bigger stone is capable of throwing bigger flashes of light than the smaller stone with smaller facets.

Also it's challenging to compare a loose stone with a set stone. Furthermore I suspect bezels may decrease light performance a bit. But I can tell you the old stone held its own against the modern stones today IRL.

My other finding is that, while I felt sure 3.10 and slightly bigger than 9 mm would be too big for me, it was not so. I love the size. I have pretty big fingers. I weigh the same as I did when I was 20, and I'm not overweight at all, but unfortunately arthritis seems to be affecting my finger joints. I don't have pain but I do have some "knobbiness."

I'll post some more tomorrow as I observe the L OEC in morning as opposed to afternoon light. Reading back through this post makes me think maybe I don't have enough to do if I'm so preoccupied with these details!!

 

[LLJsmom]

Sage, I guess I missed a lot in your thread. You certainly have seen way more than me then. Since you have both in your possession, an OEC and an AVR, you can best tell what is most beautiful.

I am happy to hear that the 3.1 does not seem awkwardly huge to you. I didn't think it would but of course you would have to be the one to get comfortable with it. Would you rather have an AVR if they carried your spec requirements? It sounds like you like the look of your L. I can't wait to see what you decide. That L is very beautiful. Missy loved it too.