*Occupy Wall Street*

[y2kitty]

I encourage everyone to read the full CBO report. At the very least, pay attention to Summary Figure 3, Figure 3, and Figure 14 before drawing your own conclusions on the "99%".

Trends in the Distribution of Household Income Between 1979 and 2007
http://cbo.gov/ftpdocs/124xx/doc12485/10-25-HouseholdIncome.pdf

I find it fascinating how some in the top 1% has managed to convince portions of the remaining 99% that the "middle class" (middle 21-80%?) is being screwed by the "poor and lazy" (bottom 20%?) over the past 3 decades.

Can't we believe we are being screwed by both groups?

 

[ksinger]

I encourage everyone to read the full CBO report. At the very least, pay attention to Summary Figure 3, Figure 3, and Figure 14 before drawing your own conclusions on the "99%".

Trends in the Distribution of Household Income Between 1979 and 2007
http://cbo.gov/ftpdocs/124xx/doc12485/10-25-HouseholdIncome.pdf

I find it fascinating how some in the top 1% has managed to convince portions of the remaining 99% that the "middle class" (middle 21-80%?) is being screwed by the "poor and lazy" (bottom 20%?) over the past 3 decades.

Yes, it IS amazing isn't it? Even though they are mostly just taking advantage of the fact that people want to distance themselves from the class they DON'T want to be in, and associate themselves with the class they WANT to be in. It's why almost everyone, even those in all but the tip-top tiers, want to identify as middle class, even when strictly speaking, they aren't. You aren't one of the lazy LOWER classes and you aren't one of the greedy materialistic UPPER classes. That and people desperately want to believe that anyone can make it in America, when in reality, social mobility in this country is less than just about anywhere in the industrialized world. I have to applaud the effectiveness of the propaganda, even while I despise what is has wrought.

I read an interesting piece a while back by Elizabeth Warren, pre Obama/political aspirations, on why the middle class has been so strapped and overextended. It had a lot to do with finding the "proper" schools for offspring.

This isn't the exact one I read, but it's actually a bit better and more in-depth...
http://bostonreview.net/BR30.5/warrentyagi.php

 

[davi_el_mejor]

aaaaah levity

 

[zoebartlett]

Packrat -- Thank you for that post. It hits home for many people, and as others have said, it's very powerful.

another vote of thanks, Packrat.

yes, Dickens does come to mind.........

if the rich provide so many jobs why are there not more jobs after all the years of tax cuts for the rich? is it because they do not invest their $ in business in this country but overseas or could it be that they are merely dealing with derivatives and such which do not generate jobs except for those in the banking/investing industry?

see the movie Margin Call playing now in theatres. there is a line in which a character says "i know i don't work as hard as you" to his boss and the boss played by kevin spacey replies, "no you don't.....trust me, i know". seriously, see the movie. it isn't preachy at all. it even gives the "otherside's" view point........

And a thank you to Packrat from me, too. Well said, Packrat, and from the heart.

I agree with MZ's recommendation of "Margin Call," and also recommend a documentary (available for download/rental by now) called "Inside Job." http://www.sonyclassics.com/insidejob/

My husband and I recently saw both movies and we liked Inside Job a lot. Margin Call was pretty good, too.
I haven't followed the OWS movement closely enough to have an opinion about it. I know that it angers me to hear about so many people still out of work and others having so many financial difficulties because of job losses and budget cuts. My husband and I were affected by the poor economy when a former employer of his cut hundreds of positions. We were lucky in that we didn't lose much, but we did need to relocate because he couldn't find another position in our area. That relocation only lasted a year before he ended up returning to a former position he used to have with another company in our home state. I feel really horrible for everyone who's struggling to make ends meet. It can be really scary, and it's not fair that this all happened because higher-ups in large corporations were so greedy. That's my very simplistic take on it anyway.

 

[zoebartlett]

aaaaah levity

 

[0-0-0]

I encourage everyone to read the full CBO report. At the very least, pay attention to Summary Figure 3, Figure 3, and Figure 14 before drawing your own conclusions on the "99%".

Trends in the Distribution of Household Income Between 1979 and 2007
http://cbo.gov/ftpdocs/124xx/doc12485/10-25-HouseholdIncome.pdf

I find it fascinating how some in the top 1% has managed to convince portions of the remaining 99% that the "middle class" (middle 21-80%?) is being screwed by the "poor and lazy" (bottom 20%?) over the past 3 decades.

Can't we believe we are being screwed by both groups?

Please note highlighted statement. I only wish to add a less biased source of data (without the media headlines) to the discussion and offer my own observations. If you found it unhelpful in drawing a more informed opinion, I apologize for wasting your time. I don't believe in changing anyone's beliefs.

As an aside, I fail to see the logic in the belief that the "middle class" (middle 21-80%?) is being screwed by the "poor and lazy" (bottom 20%?) over the past 3 decades. The bottom 20% is the only group that saw its Shares of Income After Transfers and Federal Taxes (Summary Figure 3), Share of Total After-Tax Income (Figure 3), and Share of Total Transfers (Figure 14) all decline. The government may have increased spending, but less and less of it has been going to the bottom 20% over the past 3 decades.

I think it's debatable how much government support the "poor and lazy" (bottom 20%?) should get, but I also think that it's unfair to characterize the group as one of the causes of society's problems, especially over the past 3 decades. The bottom 20% will always exist in any system, and I seriously doubt that the majority are there by choice.

It's also absolutely absurd for some to assert that the "poor and lazy" (bottom 20%?) have anymore political influence other than the votes that they may or may not cast, especially in comparison with the higher income groups with more disposable income who can influence the political and legal process with both votes and more sizable donations.

Anyhow, I always find it refreshing when I meet or read about some of the more reasonable people, especially among the top 1%: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/21/1028500/-A-Voice-From-the-1

Yes, it IS amazing isn't it? Even though they are mostly just taking advantage of the fact that people want to distance themselves from the class they DON'T want to be in, and associate themselves with the class they WANT to be in. It's why almost everyone, even those in all but the tip-top tiers, want to identify as middle class, even when strictly speaking, they aren't. You aren't one of the lazy LOWER classes and you aren't one of the greedy materialistic UPPER classes. That and people desperately want to believe that anyone can make it in America, when in reality, social mobility in this country is less than just about anywhere in the industrialized world. I have to applaud the effectiveness of the propaganda, even while I despise what is has wrought.

It is an extremely odd dynamic, especially given that this is happening within a democracy that gives everyone opportunities to vote based on their self-interest. Yet the available choices appear mostly limited by the representatives and lobbyists, with the discussion in the media largely reduced to misleading headlines and soundbites, and all largely funded by the top 1%.

 

[AGBF]

It is an extremely odd dynamic, especially given that this is happening within a democracy that gives everyone opportunities to vote based on their self-interest. Yet the available choices appear mostly limited by the representatives and lobbyists, with the discussion in the media largely reduced to misleading headlines and soundbites, and all largely funded by the top 1%.

In a way, of course, it is odd. It is self-defeating. In another way, it is not odd at all. ksinger, in her own words, pointed out that interests with money have political and psychological leverage on the general populace. A certain German philosopher put it thusly over 150 years ago:

"The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas: i.e., the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby, generally speaking, the ideas of those who lack the means of mental production are subject to it. . . . The individuals composing the ruling class possess among other things consciousness, and therefore think. Insofar, therefore, as they rule as a class and determine the extent and compass of an epoch, it is self evident that they do this in its whole range , hence among other things rule also as thinkers, as producers of ideas, and regulate the production and distribution of the idea of their age: thus their ideas are the ruling ideas of the epoch."

Karl Marx


Deb/AGBF

 

[movie zombie]

[quote="thbmok|1319763907|3049059It is an extremely odd dynamic, especially given that this is happening within a democracy that gives everyone opportunities to vote based on their self-interest. Yet the available choices appear mostly limited by the representatives and lobbyists, with the discussion in the media largely reduced to misleading headlines and soundbites, and all largely funded by the top 1%.[/quote]


and therein lies a lot of truth and the heart of the problems.......

 

[ksinger]

I encourage everyone to read the full CBO report. At the very least, pay attention to Summary Figure 3, Figure 3, and Figure 14 before drawing your own conclusions on the "99%".

Trends in the Distribution of Household Income Between 1979 and 2007
http://cbo.gov/ftpdocs/124xx/doc12485/10-25-HouseholdIncome.pdf

I find it fascinating how some in the top 1% has managed to convince portions of the remaining 99% that the "middle class" (middle 21-80%?) is being screwed by the "poor and lazy" (bottom 20%?) over the past 3 decades.

Can't we believe we are being screwed by both groups?

Please note highlighted statement. I only wish to add a less biased source of data (without the media headlines) to the discussion and offer my own observations. If you found it unhelpful in drawing a more informed opinion, I apologize for wasting your time. I don't believe in changing anyone's beliefs.

As an aside, I fail to see the logic in the belief that the "middle class" (middle 21-80%?) is being screwed by the "poor and lazy" (bottom 20%?) over the past 3 decades. The bottom 20% is the only group that saw its Shares of Income After Transfers and Federal Taxes (Summary Figure 3), Share of Total After-Tax Income (Figure 3), and Share of Total Transfers (Figure 14) all decline. The government may have increased spending, but less and less of it has been going to the bottom 20% over the past 3 decades.

I think it's debatable how much government support the "poor and lazy" (bottom 20%?) should get, but I also think that it's unfair to characterize the group as one of the causes of society's problems, especially over the past 3 decades. The bottom 20% will always exist in any system, and I seriously doubt that the majority are there by choice.

It's also absolutely absurd for some to assert that the "poor and lazy" (bottom 20%?) have anymore political influence other than the votes that they may or may not cast, especially in comparison with the higher income groups with more disposable income who can influence the political and legal process with both votes and more sizable donations.

Anyhow, I always find it refreshing when I meet or read about some of the more reasonable people, especially among the top 1%: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/21/1028500/-A-Voice-From-the-1

Yes, it IS amazing isn't it? Even though they are mostly just taking advantage of the fact that people want to distance themselves from the class they DON'T want to be in, and associate themselves with the class they WANT to be in. It's why almost everyone, even those in all but the tip-top tiers, want to identify as middle class, even when strictly speaking, they aren't. You aren't one of the lazy LOWER classes and you aren't one of the greedy materialistic UPPER classes. That and people desperately want to believe that anyone can make it in America, when in reality, social mobility in this country is less than just about anywhere in the industrialized world. I have to applaud the effectiveness of the propaganda, even while I despise what is has wrought.

It is an extremely odd dynamic, especially given that this is happening within a democracy that gives everyone opportunities to vote based on their self-interest. Yet the available choices appear mostly limited by the representatives and lobbyists, with the discussion in the media largely reduced to misleading headlines and soundbites, and all largely funded by the top 1%.

thbmok - Given what you seem to be interested in, I suspect you will find this equally interesting...it's about social mobility in the US. I've posted it before in other threads, but it's good enough to post again.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2006/04/b1579981.html

 

[HollyS]

smitcompton: I don't know who you are, or even why you're here. However, I'm pretty positive you don't know me well enough to tell me I'm angry. And since we don't know each other, and have never had a discussion together, who are you to offer your opinion of me? Imagine my opinion, now, of you . . .

As for drama, nope, don't like drama. Nothing is ever solved by drama. But thanks for weighing in on my 'attitude' so you could stir some up.

 

[ksinger]

Perfect example of the danger of thinking that OWS is peopled only by lazy entitled stoners. I bet the cops are puckered up badly right now. Nothing like shooting an employed decorated Iraq war marine vet....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/anti-wall-street-protesters-hold-vigils-for-iraq-war-vet-injured-during-police-clash/2011/10/28/gIQAwgVTOM_story.html

 

[Imdanny]

smitcompton: I don't know who you are, or even why you're here. However, I'm pretty positive you don't know me well enough to tell me I'm angry. And since we don't know each other, and have never had a discussion together, who are you to offer your opinion of me? Imagine my opinion, now, of you . . .

As for drama, nope, don't like drama. Nothing is ever solved by drama. But thanks for weighing in on my 'attitude' so you could stir some up.

Did you think you were going to mock the song most associated with the Civil Rights Movement and not stir up "drama"? Seriously?

And also thanks for the stereotype of the DFH.

smitcompton was being nice. I don't think I could say what I think about your posts and remain within the boundaries of PS rules.

 

[ksinger]

Ya just GOTTA love it: now the NY police will be filing civil suits against the SUPPORTERS (like if I sent $20 bucks or had water delivered) of OWS, if one of their officers gets hurt. A new twist in our overly-litigious culture. In lieu of bashing you in the head with a stick, we'll SUE you!!! This is a completely new civil lawsuit threat. I'm not sure what legal grounds (short of terrorism legislation maybe?) that they could have to bring a civil lawsuit against someone who sent money or supplies, but then the world HAS gone mad at the moment. I'm sure the city and the police force there have ample funds to do this too.

This is going to be an interesting time for future historians....

http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2011/10/27/nypd-union-warns-of-civil-lawsuits-against-occupy-supporters/

 

[beebrisk]

I live in Manhattan. I work downtown. We are no longer talking about "protesters" in the park. We're talking about squatters and people who think that in a civilized society it's okay to urinate and defecate on public and private property. These are people who think it's okay to prevent small business owners from working because their presence is blocking access. They care nothing about the community they have decided to occupy, or the people that live and work in it.

Yes, much of the world has gone mad, and the miscreants downtown are a prime example.

I would defend to the death any American's right to protest, but that's not what we have here.

God bless Bill Bratten and his team. New York's finest.

 

[HollyS]

smitcompton: I don't know who you are, or even why you're here. However, I'm pretty positive you don't know me well enough to tell me I'm angry. And since we don't know each other, and have never had a discussion together, who are you to offer your opinion of me? Imagine my opinion, now, of you . . .

As for drama, nope, don't like drama. Nothing is ever solved by drama. But thanks for weighing in on my 'attitude' so you could stir some up.

Did you think you were going to mock the song most associated with the Civil Rights Movement and not stir up "drama"? Seriously?

And also thanks for the stereotype of the DFH.

smitcompton was being nice. I don't think I could say what I think about your posts and remain within the boundaries of PS rules.[/quote]


1) I didn't mock the song. I mocked the pseudo-anti-establishment protesters (current crop and the nostalgic) who trot out this ditty for every cause. The fact that you (and other posters) fail to recognize the difference makes me wonder about your other cognitive skills.

2) As for the second bolded part, I've never particularly cared for your posts either. So what? I'm sure that isn't any more a big deal to you than your dislike of me being a problem for moi. Suppose you just simply stop worrying about what I think all the time? I can assure you that your opinion doesn't make me hate you - - I simply skip most of your posts.

So, dial down the pissiness.

 

[beebrisk]

So, dial down the pissiness.

Asking a liberal to dial down the pissiness is a little like asking a bear not to s***t in the woods (or poop in the park on Wall Street)

 

[HollyS]

So, dial down the pissiness.

Asking a liberal to dial down the pissiness is a little like asking a bear not to s***t in the woods (or poop in the park on Wall Street)

You've noticed, have you, that opinions of an opposing spectrum are mean and obviously an attack? How dare you think differently; you must be crazy, angry, mindless, and Palin loving to take such a tactic. For shame!

It has become impossible for a liberal to have a joke poked at their sacred cows without WW III. Meanwhile, take whatever potshot you want at anything remotely conservative. We're fair game.

And we're the angry ones. Uh huh.

I'm waiting for thing2 to weigh in here to tell me how impossible I am. Then all I'll have to do is post a wink. Or maybe imdanny will do it for her.

 

[beebrisk]

You've noticed, have you, that opinions of an opposing spectrum are mean and obviously an attack? How dare you think differently; you must be crazy, angry, mindless, and Palin loving to take such a tactic. For shame!

It has become impossible for a liberal to have a joke poked at their sacred cows without WW III. Meanwhile, take whatever potshot you want at anything remotely conservative. We're fair game.

And we're the angry ones. Uh huh.

Absolutely.

And what I have noticed is that the defenders of all things liberal are the most tolerant, open-minded, fairest, most generous of spirit and most caring people on the planet.

Unless you don't agree with something they've said.

 

[Clairitek]

So, dial down the pissiness.

Asking a liberal to dial down the pissiness is a little like asking a bear not to s***t in the woods (or poop in the park on Wall Street)

Good thing you described what you meant by the bolded because I was having trouble coming up with words that could fit into "s***t"... Shoot? I thought that maybe this was some sort of conservative NRA-related tangent about the right to bear arms

 

[Dancing Fire]

Holly S and beebrisk in 2012 ...

 

[beebrisk]

So, dial down the pissiness.

Asking a liberal to dial down the pissiness is a little like asking a bear not to s***t in the woods (or poop in the park on Wall Street)

Good thing you described what you meant by the bolded because I was having trouble coming up with words that could fit into "s***t"... Shoot? I thought that maybe this was some sort of conservative NRA-related tangent about the right to bear arms

Actually, the "bolded" was an error because sometimes this system is a little wonky. Simple as that.

Was your snark at my presumed "tangent" an error?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Perfect example of the danger of thinking that OWS is peopled only by lazy entitled stoners. I bet the cops are puckered up badly right now. Nothing like shooting an employed decorated Iraq war marine vet....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/anti-wall-street-protesters-hold-vigils-for-iraq-war-vet-injured-during-police-clash/2011/10/28/gIQAwgVTOM_story.html

but they are!...as immigrants of the 60's our family worked 10-12 hrs a day in a restaurant kitchen to make ends meet,so don't tell me that these people are in worse situation than we were. more entitlements = more lazy people.

 

[HollyS]

Holly S and beebrisk in 2012 ...

How come no one ever craps all over you?

Because they think you're just going "Aw, shucks! Little ol' conservative me, bother you? Nah. Why would I want to do that?"

I know what you're really doing over there. Rolling your eyes and cussing under your breath and counting to ten and then posting "thing2, I love you!" I'd bet money on it. I prefer not to wink, nudge, and be cutesy. But, then, I'm angry.

 

[HollyS]

Perfect example of the danger of thinking that OWS is peopled only by lazy entitled stoners. I bet the cops are puckered up badly right now. Nothing like shooting an employed decorated Iraq war marine vet....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/anti-wall-street-protesters-hold-vigils-for-iraq-war-vet-injured-during-police-clash/2011/10/28/gIQAwgVTOM_story.html

but they are!...as immigrants of the 60's our family worked 10-12 hrs a day in a restaurant kitchen to make ends meet,so don't tell me that these people are in worse situation than we were. more entitlements = more lazy people.

Now you've poked the wrong dog.

 

[HollyS]

Careful, all of you internet protesters-in-pajamas . . . you don't want to say the wrong thing:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45076024/ns/world_news-europe/t/report-facebook-user-jailed-inciting-british-riots/

 

[beebrisk]

Perfect example of the danger of thinking that OWS is peopled only by lazy entitled stoners. I bet the cops are puckered up badly right now. Nothing like shooting an employed decorated Iraq war marine vet....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/anti-wall-street-protesters-hold-vigils-for-iraq-war-vet-injured-during-police-clash/2011/10/28/gIQAwgVTOM_story.html

but they are!...as immigrants of the 60's our family worked 10-12 hrs a day in a restaurant kitchen to make ends meet,so don't tell me that these people are in worse situation than we were. more entitlements = more lazy people.

Now you've poked the wrong dog.

Lay around a park all day and all night for weeks on end, smoke a little weed, take food from anyone that will deliver it to you free of charge, throw your trash around and relieve yourself on the premises. You are a no good, lazy stoner.

Do all the above, just with a big sign in your hand and the liberals and media will label you a hero and a patriot.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Holly S and beebrisk in 2012 ...

How come no one ever craps all over you?

Because they think you're just going "Aw, shucks! Little ol' conservative me, bother you? Nah. Why would I want to do that?"

I know what you're really doing over there. Rolling your eyes and cussing under your breath and counting to ten and then posting "thing2, I love you!" I'd bet money on it. I prefer not to wink, nudge, and be cutesy. But, then, I'm angry.

b/c they "the PS liberals" know that i don't understand English very well so they don't wanna waste their time on me...

 

[Clairitek]

So, dial down the pissiness.

Asking a liberal to dial down the pissiness is a little like asking a bear not to s***t in the woods (or poop in the park on Wall Street)

Good thing you described what you meant by the bolded because I was having trouble coming up with words that could fit into "s***t"... Shoot? I thought that maybe this was some sort of conservative NRA-related tangent about the right to bear arms

Actually, the "bolded" was an error because sometimes this system is a little wonky. Simple as that.

Was your snark at my presumed "tangent" an error?

I guess my bear pun wasn't as funny as I thought it was. Oops! My bad.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Perfect example of the danger of thinking that OWS is peopled only by lazy entitled stoners. I bet the cops are puckered up badly right now. Nothing like shooting an employed decorated Iraq war marine vet....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/anti-wall-street-protesters-hold-vigils-for-iraq-war-vet-injured-during-police-clash/2011/10/28/gIQAwgVTOM_story.html

but they are!...as immigrants of the 60's our family worked 10-12 hrs a day in a restaurant kitchen to make ends meet,so don't tell me that these people are in worse situation than we were. more entitlements = more lazy people.

Now you've poked the wrong dog.

this dog have no teeth... i don't agree with Karen but i still love her.

 

[beebrisk]

Hypocrites on parade

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/28/8522718-michael-moore-confesses-i-am-the-1-percent